Consider This: Social Media Ban (Part 2) — Rights, Risks, and Realities - Video Dailymotion

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Malaysia is planning to ban children under 16 years old from signing up for social media accounts. The move mirrors Australia’s restrictions, and signals a growing global push to limit young people’s online exposure. However, Malaysia intends to enforce these age restrictions using eKYC identity checks. Is this the right policy tool for the harm we’re trying to address? On this episode of #ConsiderThis Melisa Idris speaks with Dr Tricia Yeoh, Associate Professor of Practice, School of Politics, International Relations & Economics, University of Nottingham Malaysia.

Transcript

00:00Hi, welcome back to Consider This, I'm Melissa Idris.

00:14Let's continue our discussion about how Malaysia is considering barring under-16s from social media

00:20which will be enforced or could be enforced through the EKYC identity checks.

00:26The debate is intensifying, is this protection or government overreach?

00:31Joining me now to help us think this through is Dr. Trisha Yeo,

00:34who is an Associate Professor of Practice at University of Nottingham Malaysia's School of Politics,

00:40International Relations and Economics.

00:42Trisha, thank you so much for coming on the show with us. It's good to have you back.

00:46Now, as both a parent and a policy analyst, I'm curious to know how you feel about this.

00:52Where do you stand? How are you reading the government's proposal to restrict social media access

00:59for those under-16s and using the EKYC approach to do so?

01:05Thank you so much for having me again, Melissa. It's good to be back.

01:09Okay, so the first question is as a parent, right?

01:13So, as a parent of young children, I will say that the negative or the potential negative impact

01:21of excessive social media use, or let's say tech in general as well,

01:27has always been at the forefront of my mind.

01:31I think that parents are not thoughtful enough about the way in which tech is being used,

01:38or, you know, many times tech is used as an educational tool,

01:43but on the flip side, there are damaging implications as well if tech is not controlled for.

01:51And, of course, social media amplifies this effect tremendously.

01:57So, as a parent, I have been very cautious.

02:00I am very, very aware that social media can impair and harm.

02:05There is a UNICEF report that states that one in four Malaysian children

02:11are exposed to harmful content.

02:14And what does harmful mean?

02:15It could potentially mean, you know, hardcore pornography.

02:20And we have actually seen the impact of that in our Malaysian schools.

02:24So, I think at the outset, the implications of social media on young teenagers

02:29up to the age of 16, even 17, I would argue, that's damaging.

02:34I will admit that when there was talk of the social media ban that was emerging,

02:42initially, I was actually looking forward to that prospect

02:46because why parents like the term ban is because it relegates the authority to someone else.

02:53So, if the government is saying that it's not allowed,

02:56parents can actually let go and not get into a huge argument with their children

02:59because it's not about the parents making that decision anymore.

03:02Having said that, as a policy analyst myself,

03:08I will now say that two things, right?

03:12Two separate things.

03:13Number one, using the EKYC method is flawed.

03:18Why?

03:18Because it is excessive.

03:20What it will require is for users, all users, right?

03:25Not just teenagers, because how are you going to verify your age

03:29if you don't actually produce some kind of identification?

03:32So, like an IC, a driver's license, and so on.

03:35And this remains in the system for good.

03:38And as I've written recently in an article,

03:41in a country context like Malaysia,

03:42where social media is used a lot for advocacy,

03:47anonymity is key.

03:49You're not just talking about, you know, political activism,

03:53but you're also talking about people who are perhaps vulnerable,

03:57and these identities need to be protected.

04:00So, you're talking about data privacy concerns here.

04:02So, if it's not the EKYC method,

04:05the government may ask,

04:06then how are we going to make that age verification?

04:09So, it's also quite simple,

04:10because the industry has established forms

04:13such as the zero-knowledge proofs,

04:16which have been used to verify your age

04:19without having to use the EKYC method.

04:21So, to say that there's no other method

04:23to verify your age is not true.

04:26So, that's as far as the ban is concerned.

04:28Okay?

04:29But, if you are going to ban,

04:32a ban also,

04:35there are negative implications of the ban as well.

04:37So, I'll go through what the ban potentially means, right?

04:41So, a ban potentially means that,

04:43number one,

04:45some potential positive effects of social media,

04:49which are used for educational means

04:51or for gating community and so on,

04:54especially for vulnerable children

04:56or children who don't have access to

04:58the kinds of, you know,

04:59quality education otherwise that they could have,

05:02they could be left out.

05:04And, number two,

05:05I think more importantly,

05:07the ban might give people the impression

05:11that everything is solved, right?

05:14It will give a false impression that,

05:16problem solved,

05:17let's move on to the next thing.

05:18When, in fact,

05:19a ban itself may not be sufficient.

05:22There are lots of workarounds.

05:24You know,

05:24children and teenagers are very smart.

05:26They can actually use,

05:29you know,

05:30accounts that don't belong to them.

05:33There's a possibility of sharing accounts

05:35with older people.

05:36You can also access certain social media

05:38without necessarily logging in

05:39and having an identity, right?

05:40So, you can just use the web-based version,

05:42for example.

05:44And I think more importantly,

05:45it also,

05:46what that means

05:47and what that does

05:48is that the government reduces

05:50the incentive,

05:51or the government is therefore reduced

05:54in its incentives

05:56and approaches

05:57to shift the onus of responsibility

05:59to other parties,

06:02such as the social media platforms themselves.

06:05So, I'll just stop there for now.

06:07I think, you know,

06:08we can talk a lot

06:09about the other policy options available.

06:11Yeah, I'm actually curious to know,

06:13because you brought up

06:13a really important point,

06:15whether blanket bans

06:17or age restrictions

06:18of this nature

06:20actually address the harms

06:22that we want to protect

06:24our children from.

06:26So, if you were to think about that,

06:28Tricia,

06:29about what policy interventions

06:32are actually needed

06:33beyond an age ban,

06:36if we actually want

06:37to protect children

06:38from online harms.

06:41So, other policy restrictions

06:43would be,

06:44so, there's all kinds of things

06:46that you can do.

06:47So, I think,

06:48at the outset,

06:50like, mandatory parental controls

06:52that are imposed

06:54at the device level

06:56would actually be

06:58a brilliant step

06:59because if it's imposed

07:01at the device level,

07:02then the device automatically

07:04will update all the apps

07:05that are downloaded

07:06into that device

07:07so you don't have to go

07:08app by app, right,

07:09to say, okay,

07:10how old am I?

07:11How old am I?

07:12And the parental controls

07:14can actually be imposed

07:15as a mandatory thing,

07:17meaning that

07:17the government

07:18can make it illegal

07:19for any parent

07:20to give their child

07:21a device

07:22without first locking

07:23the device

07:24with parental controls.

07:27And, you know,

07:28the implications

07:30of, you know,

07:30what is illegal

07:31can actually be,

07:33you know,

07:33parents who don't do that

07:34can, you know,

07:35just be fined

07:36or maybe they go

07:37for community service

07:38and they go for trainings

07:39instead on how to have

07:41safer screens

07:41for their children.

07:43The other thing is that

07:44if you make the devices

07:45responsible,

07:46so when at the point

07:47of the purchase,

07:48the devices,

07:49you know,

07:50you actually ask the question,

07:51is there going to be

07:52a child or a teenager

07:53who's accessing this?

07:54They can be responsible

07:55for doing that.

07:56And if parents

07:57don't know how to do it,

07:58devices can also,

07:59they can also have

08:01walk-in clinic sessions

08:02where they invite parents

08:04throughout the year

08:06who have made purchases

08:07to come in

08:08and then we will help

08:09to do that for you.

08:10So that's on the device level.

08:12On the platform level,

08:14the platforms,

08:15now this is actually

08:16the crux of the matter

08:17because what Brazil

08:19has done

08:20is actually quite brilliant.

08:21So they've just passed

08:22a whole set of laws

08:24that will,

08:26like I said,

08:26shift this responsibility

08:27to the platforms.

08:28So the platforms

08:29are now responsible

08:30to ensure that

08:32there's not going to be,

08:33for example,

08:34targeted advertising

08:35for children.

08:38So if you look

08:39at the ad revenue

08:40that's generated

08:41for consumers

08:43of social media accounts,

08:45even between the ages

08:46of 0 to 12,

08:47I mean,

08:47I don't know why

08:48we are even talking

08:49about children that age,

08:51right?

08:51So ad revenue

08:52is being generated

08:53for consumers

08:54who are that young

08:55and it's quite significant.

08:57It's still less

08:58than the ages

08:59of between 13 to 18

09:00but the fact

09:01that you still have

09:02millions of revenue

09:03being generated,

09:04what that means

09:04is that the social media

09:07platforms need

09:08to also come forward

09:09and be transparent

09:10about the way

09:12in which the algorithms

09:13are working.

09:15So I think in the US,

09:16there's a lot of conversation

09:17and debate

09:18that's shifting

09:18towards platforms.

09:21There's a group

09:22of advocates

09:24who are pushing forward

09:26a proposed bill

09:27to the US Congress

09:28which is called

09:29the Social Media

09:30Algorithm

09:30Accountability Act.

09:32That's not passed

09:34at this point

09:34but it's being debated

09:35and this will also

09:37mandate social media

09:39algorithm audits

09:40to take place.

09:41So the audit

09:42will actually

09:43be mandated

09:44by government

09:45and it will force

09:47platforms

09:47to come forward

09:48and say,

09:49okay,

09:49this is what

09:50the algorithms

09:51look like.

09:52Is the algorithm

09:53damaging?

09:54what is it doing

09:57to children

09:58of certain ages?

10:00And ultimately,

10:01what we want

10:02to move away from

10:03is of course

10:04algorithms

10:04that are ad-driven

10:07and advertising

10:09revenue-driven

10:11because this means

10:13that children

10:14are being exposed

10:15to certain products.

10:16So not just

10:16about the ads,

10:17right?

10:17I mean,

10:18you're also talking

10:18about a lot of...

10:20I mean,

10:20this can go on and on

10:22but you're talking

10:22about also harmful content

10:23earlier I referred

10:24to pornography.

10:26We haven't even

10:26started talking

10:27about content

10:28that young children

10:29and teenagers

10:30are being exposed

10:31to which increases

10:32their potential

10:33towards violence,

10:35towards misogyny,

10:37cyber bullying

10:37and so on.

10:39Tricia,

10:40when you talk

10:40about making

10:42platforms accountable

10:43or creating

10:44platforms that are

10:45safe by design,

10:47how realistic

10:48is that?

10:49Feasibly from

10:50a policy standpoint,

10:51from government

10:52regulation standpoint,

10:52from a Malaysian

10:54government standpoint,

10:55particularly with

10:56these tech companies

10:57who are,

10:58you know,

11:00superpowers

11:00in themselves,

11:02is it feasible

11:03for Malaysia

11:05to request

11:06or to regulate

11:07tech companies

11:08in this way?

11:10So,

11:11there's two ways

11:14of looking at it.

11:14On the one hand,

11:17social media companies

11:19that provide services

11:21in a country,

11:23any country,

11:23in this case,

11:24in a country like Malaysia,

11:26they are compelled

11:29to adhere to the laws

11:31and regulations

11:32of the country

11:33within which

11:34they provide services to.

11:36However,

11:37the other way

11:38of looking at it

11:38is that

11:39because these social media

11:40companies

11:41are so large,

11:43their HQs

11:44are evidently

11:45not here

11:45and we are

11:46relatively small

11:47market as well,

11:48whether or not

11:49they will comply

11:50with those laws

11:51is another matter

11:51altogether

11:52because,

11:53for example,

11:53as we've already seen,

11:55when the Malaysian government

11:56has tried to impose

11:58the licensing regime,

12:00not all social media

12:01companies

12:01and tech companies

12:02have agreed to that.

12:03So,

12:03I think it's going

12:04to be interesting

12:04to see how far

12:06that can go as well.

12:07However,

12:08I think it's still

12:09important for there

12:10to be a law

12:11or to be a regulation

12:12because that provides

12:14you the platform

12:14with which consumers

12:16can demand,

12:17right,

12:17for social media companies

12:19to actually take action.

12:20So,

12:20you have at least

12:21a level of reference,

12:24a touch point

12:25that you can measure

12:26them against.

12:27So,

12:28that law is actually

12:28very,

12:29very crucial

12:29and,

12:30I mean,

12:31one would argue

12:32that if a company

12:33is providing services

12:34in this country,

12:35you have to oblige

12:36by the law

12:37and regulation

12:37that is imposed

12:38by the country.

12:39Definitely.

12:40Trisha,

12:40thank you so much

12:41for being on the show

12:42and sharing some

12:43of your insights

12:44with us.

12:44I appreciate you

12:45and your analysis

12:46always.

12:47Dr. Trisha Yeo

12:47from University of

12:49Nottingham, Malaysia.

12:50They're wrapping up

12:50this episode

12:51of Consider This.

12:52I'm Melissa Idris

12:53signing off for the evening.

12:54Thank you so much

12:55for watching

12:55and good night.

12:56I'm Melissa Idris

12:58and I'm so proud of you

13:11to be here in the City of

13:13Nottingham.

13:13I'll see you next time

13:14in the City of Just

13:15Missing

13:15and I'll see you next time

13:16just to be here in the City of

13:18Persons.

Consider This: Social Media Ban (Part 2) — Rights, Risks, and Realities

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