00:00Hi, welcome back to Consider This, I'm Melissa Idris.
00:14Let's continue our discussion about how Malaysia is considering barring under-16s from social media
00:20which will be enforced or could be enforced through the EKYC identity checks.
00:26The debate is intensifying, is this protection or government overreach?
00:31Joining me now to help us think this through is Dr. Trisha Yeo,
00:34who is an Associate Professor of Practice at University of Nottingham Malaysia's School of Politics,
00:40International Relations and Economics.
00:42Trisha, thank you so much for coming on the show with us. It's good to have you back.
00:46Now, as both a parent and a policy analyst, I'm curious to know how you feel about this.
00:52Where do you stand? How are you reading the government's proposal to restrict social media access
00:59for those under-16s and using the EKYC approach to do so?
01:05Thank you so much for having me again, Melissa. It's good to be back.
01:09Okay, so the first question is as a parent, right?
01:13So, as a parent of young children, I will say that the negative or the potential negative impact
01:21of excessive social media use, or let's say tech in general as well,
01:27has always been at the forefront of my mind.
01:31I think that parents are not thoughtful enough about the way in which tech is being used,
01:38or, you know, many times tech is used as an educational tool,
01:43but on the flip side, there are damaging implications as well if tech is not controlled for.
01:51And, of course, social media amplifies this effect tremendously.
01:57So, as a parent, I have been very cautious.
02:00I am very, very aware that social media can impair and harm.
02:05There is a UNICEF report that states that one in four Malaysian children
02:11are exposed to harmful content.
02:14And what does harmful mean?
02:15It could potentially mean, you know, hardcore pornography.
02:20And we have actually seen the impact of that in our Malaysian schools.
02:24So, I think at the outset, the implications of social media on young teenagers
02:29up to the age of 16, even 17, I would argue, that's damaging.
02:34I will admit that when there was talk of the social media ban that was emerging,
02:42initially, I was actually looking forward to that prospect
02:46because why parents like the term ban is because it relegates the authority to someone else.
02:53So, if the government is saying that it's not allowed,
02:56parents can actually let go and not get into a huge argument with their children
02:59because it's not about the parents making that decision anymore.
03:02Having said that, as a policy analyst myself,
03:08I will now say that two things, right?
03:12Two separate things.
03:13Number one, using the EKYC method is flawed.
03:18Why?
03:18Because it is excessive.
03:20What it will require is for users, all users, right?
03:25Not just teenagers, because how are you going to verify your age
03:29if you don't actually produce some kind of identification?
03:32So, like an IC, a driver's license, and so on.
03:35And this remains in the system for good.
03:38And as I've written recently in an article,
03:41in a country context like Malaysia,
03:42where social media is used a lot for advocacy,
03:47anonymity is key.
03:49You're not just talking about, you know, political activism,
03:53but you're also talking about people who are perhaps vulnerable,
03:57and these identities need to be protected.
04:00So, you're talking about data privacy concerns here.
04:02So, if it's not the EKYC method,
04:05the government may ask,
04:06then how are we going to make that age verification?
04:09So, it's also quite simple,
04:10because the industry has established forms
04:13such as the zero-knowledge proofs,
04:16which have been used to verify your age
04:19without having to use the EKYC method.
04:21So, to say that there's no other method
04:23to verify your age is not true.
04:26So, that's as far as the ban is concerned.
04:28Okay?
04:29But, if you are going to ban,
04:32a ban also,
04:35there are negative implications of the ban as well.
04:37So, I'll go through what the ban potentially means, right?
04:41So, a ban potentially means that,
04:43number one,
04:45some potential positive effects of social media,
04:49which are used for educational means
04:51or for gating community and so on,
04:54especially for vulnerable children
04:56or children who don't have access to
04:58the kinds of, you know,
04:59quality education otherwise that they could have,
05:02they could be left out.
05:04And, number two,
05:05I think more importantly,
05:07the ban might give people the impression
05:11that everything is solved, right?
05:14It will give a false impression that,
05:16problem solved,
05:17let's move on to the next thing.
05:18When, in fact,
05:19a ban itself may not be sufficient.
05:22There are lots of workarounds.
05:24You know,
05:24children and teenagers are very smart.
05:26They can actually use,
05:29you know,
05:30accounts that don't belong to them.
05:33There's a possibility of sharing accounts
05:35with older people.
05:36You can also access certain social media
05:38without necessarily logging in
05:39and having an identity, right?
05:40So, you can just use the web-based version,
05:42for example.
05:44And I think more importantly,
05:45it also,
05:46what that means
05:47and what that does
05:48is that the government reduces
05:50the incentive,
05:51or the government is therefore reduced
05:54in its incentives
05:56and approaches
05:57to shift the onus of responsibility
05:59to other parties,
06:02such as the social media platforms themselves.
06:05So, I'll just stop there for now.
06:07I think, you know,
06:08we can talk a lot
06:09about the other policy options available.
06:11Yeah, I'm actually curious to know,
06:13because you brought up
06:13a really important point,
06:15whether blanket bans
06:17or age restrictions
06:18of this nature
06:20actually address the harms
06:22that we want to protect
06:24our children from.
06:26So, if you were to think about that,
06:28Tricia,
06:29about what policy interventions
06:32are actually needed
06:33beyond an age ban,
06:36if we actually want
06:37to protect children
06:38from online harms.
06:41So, other policy restrictions
06:43would be,
06:44so, there's all kinds of things
06:46that you can do.
06:47So, I think,
06:48at the outset,
06:50like, mandatory parental controls
06:52that are imposed
06:54at the device level
06:56would actually be
06:58a brilliant step
06:59because if it's imposed
07:01at the device level,
07:02then the device automatically
07:04will update all the apps
07:05that are downloaded
07:06into that device
07:07so you don't have to go
07:08app by app, right,
07:09to say, okay,
07:10how old am I?
07:11How old am I?
07:12And the parental controls
07:14can actually be imposed
07:15as a mandatory thing,
07:17meaning that
07:17the government
07:18can make it illegal
07:19for any parent
07:20to give their child
07:21a device
07:22without first locking
07:23the device
07:24with parental controls.
07:27And, you know,
07:28the implications
07:30of, you know,
07:30what is illegal
07:31can actually be,
07:33you know,
07:33parents who don't do that
07:34can, you know,
07:35just be fined
07:36or maybe they go
07:37for community service
07:38and they go for trainings
07:39instead on how to have
07:41safer screens
07:41for their children.
07:43The other thing is that
07:44if you make the devices
07:45responsible,
07:46so when at the point
07:47of the purchase,
07:48the devices,
07:49you know,
07:50you actually ask the question,
07:51is there going to be
07:52a child or a teenager
07:53who's accessing this?
07:54They can be responsible
07:55for doing that.
07:56And if parents
07:57don't know how to do it,
07:58devices can also,
07:59they can also have
08:01walk-in clinic sessions
08:02where they invite parents
08:04throughout the year
08:06who have made purchases
08:07to come in
08:08and then we will help
08:09to do that for you.
08:10So that's on the device level.
08:12On the platform level,
08:14the platforms,
08:15now this is actually
08:16the crux of the matter
08:17because what Brazil
08:19has done
08:20is actually quite brilliant.
08:21So they've just passed
08:22a whole set of laws
08:24that will,
08:26like I said,
08:26shift this responsibility
08:27to the platforms.
08:28So the platforms
08:29are now responsible
08:30to ensure that
08:32there's not going to be,
08:33for example,
08:34targeted advertising
08:35for children.
08:38So if you look
08:39at the ad revenue
08:40that's generated
08:41for consumers
08:43of social media accounts,
08:45even between the ages
08:46of 0 to 12,
08:47I mean,
08:47I don't know why
08:48we are even talking
08:49about children that age,
08:51right?
08:51So ad revenue
08:52is being generated
08:53for consumers
08:54who are that young
08:55and it's quite significant.
08:57It's still less
08:58than the ages
08:59of between 13 to 18
09:00but the fact
09:01that you still have
09:02millions of revenue
09:03being generated,
09:04what that means
09:04is that the social media
09:07platforms need
09:08to also come forward
09:09and be transparent
09:10about the way
09:12in which the algorithms
09:13are working.
09:15So I think in the US,
09:16there's a lot of conversation
09:17and debate
09:18that's shifting
09:18towards platforms.
09:21There's a group
09:22of advocates
09:24who are pushing forward
09:26a proposed bill
09:27to the US Congress
09:28which is called
09:29the Social Media
09:30Algorithm
09:30Accountability Act.
09:32That's not passed
09:34at this point
09:34but it's being debated
09:35and this will also
09:37mandate social media
09:39algorithm audits
09:40to take place.
09:41So the audit
09:42will actually
09:43be mandated
09:44by government
09:45and it will force
09:47platforms
09:47to come forward
09:48and say,
09:49okay,
09:49this is what
09:50the algorithms
09:51look like.
09:52Is the algorithm
09:53damaging?
09:54what is it doing
09:57to children
09:58of certain ages?
10:00And ultimately,
10:01what we want
10:02to move away from
10:03is of course
10:04algorithms
10:04that are ad-driven
10:07and advertising
10:09revenue-driven
10:11because this means
10:13that children
10:14are being exposed
10:15to certain products.
10:16So not just
10:16about the ads,
10:17right?
10:17I mean,
10:18you're also talking
10:18about a lot of...
10:20I mean,
10:20this can go on and on
10:22but you're talking
10:22about also harmful content
10:23earlier I referred
10:24to pornography.
10:26We haven't even
10:26started talking
10:27about content
10:28that young children
10:29and teenagers
10:30are being exposed
10:31to which increases
10:32their potential
10:33towards violence,
10:35towards misogyny,
10:37cyber bullying
10:37and so on.
10:39Tricia,
10:40when you talk
10:40about making
10:42platforms accountable
10:43or creating
10:44platforms that are
10:45safe by design,
10:47how realistic
10:48is that?
10:49Feasibly from
10:50a policy standpoint,
10:51from government
10:52regulation standpoint,
10:52from a Malaysian
10:54government standpoint,
10:55particularly with
10:56these tech companies
10:57who are,
10:58you know,
11:00superpowers
11:00in themselves,
11:02is it feasible
11:03for Malaysia
11:05to request
11:06or to regulate
11:07tech companies
11:08in this way?
11:10So,
11:11there's two ways
11:14of looking at it.
11:14On the one hand,
11:17social media companies
11:19that provide services
11:21in a country,
11:23any country,
11:23in this case,
11:24in a country like Malaysia,
11:26they are compelled
11:29to adhere to the laws
11:31and regulations
11:32of the country
11:33within which
11:34they provide services to.
11:36However,
11:37the other way
11:38of looking at it
11:38is that
11:39because these social media
11:40companies
11:41are so large,
11:43their HQs
11:44are evidently
11:45not here
11:45and we are
11:46relatively small
11:47market as well,
11:48whether or not
11:49they will comply
11:50with those laws
11:51is another matter
11:51altogether
11:52because,
11:53for example,
11:53as we've already seen,
11:55when the Malaysian government
11:56has tried to impose
11:58the licensing regime,
12:00not all social media
12:01companies
12:01and tech companies
12:02have agreed to that.
12:03So,
12:03I think it's going
12:04to be interesting
12:04to see how far
12:06that can go as well.
12:07However,
12:08I think it's still
12:09important for there
12:10to be a law
12:11or to be a regulation
12:12because that provides
12:14you the platform
12:14with which consumers
12:16can demand,
12:17right,
12:17for social media companies
12:19to actually take action.
12:20So,
12:20you have at least
12:21a level of reference,
12:24a touch point
12:25that you can measure
12:26them against.
12:27So,
12:28that law is actually
12:28very,
12:29very crucial
12:29and,
12:30I mean,
12:31one would argue
12:32that if a company
12:33is providing services
12:34in this country,
12:35you have to oblige
12:36by the law
12:37and regulation
12:37that is imposed
12:38by the country.
12:39Definitely.
12:40Trisha,
12:40thank you so much
12:41for being on the show
12:42and sharing some
12:43of your insights
12:44with us.
12:44I appreciate you
12:45and your analysis
12:46always.
12:47Dr. Trisha Yeo
12:47from University of
12:49Nottingham, Malaysia.
12:50They're wrapping up
12:50this episode
12:51of Consider This.
12:52I'm Melissa Idris
12:53signing off for the evening.
12:54Thank you so much
12:55for watching
12:55and good night.
12:56I'm Melissa Idris
12:58and I'm so proud of you
13:11to be here in the City of
13:13Nottingham.
13:13I'll see you next time
13:14in the City of Just
13:15Missing
13:15and I'll see you next time
13:16just to be here in the City of
13:18Persons.
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