00:00Australia is set to enact policy that requires social media companies including TikTok and Instagram
00:06to block under-16s from holding accounts or face fines of up to $33 million.
00:12Joining us now is Terry Flew, Professor of Digital Communication and Culture at the University of Sydney.
00:18Professor, good to see you.
00:20So we are going to unpack, I guess, the for and against arguments for such a social media ban.
00:26But talk to us first how we got here after, what, three decades of mostly an unregulated internet.
00:35I think that the pressure for policies along these lines has been building for about a decade.
00:42There's a lot of dissatisfaction with industry self-regulation and also a growing sense that a lot of the promises of social media have had significant downsides.
00:53So in Australia, the conversation essentially begins about 18 months ago and there were various proposals around how to address issues around young people and adverse mental health consequences.
01:09And a social media ban was agreed upon by government, opposition and the state premiers as the best way in which to proceed along these lines.
01:20And legislation was passed 12 months ago.
01:22So we've now had quite a long lead time to put in place the implementation of the ban, which will be commencing tomorrow.
01:34What about the potential, I guess, initial challenges for social media companies and enforcement?
01:43Because that seems to be something like a lingering concern for them.
01:47Most, but not all, social media companies named in the ban have chosen to cooperate, most notably Meta, Snapchat, TikTok.
02:01YouTube, reluctantly, there's an argument there about whether YouTube actually is social media.
02:07But they have chosen to comply with the legislation.
02:13It's important to note that the legislation gives the Office of the E-Safety Commissioner the capacity to designate platforms as coming under the legislation.
02:23It's also important to note that the onus is not on parents to implement this ban, but upon platforms to make the best measures to ensure that those who hold accounts on their platforms are aged 16 or older.
02:38Terry, we know that kids, especially teenagers, really get around rules, right?
02:45They always find a way.
02:46What are the risks that we're pushing under 16 users to potentially more harmful parts in the online space?
02:54That's a possibility, although I would note that the E-Safety Commissioner has the capacity to designate new platforms to come under the legislation.
03:07So there's been quite a debate about gaming platforms, for instance, and perhaps an odd arrangement where some platforms are subject to the ban, such as Twitch and Kick, but not Roblox, perhaps because Roblox have themselves implemented an age verification scheme.
03:25I think over time, the principal question about whether the legislation works will be seen around the rate of growth in the number of young people using social media platforms, if that begins to decline, and it could because while there are a lot of online options, network effects mean that people tend to go onto the platforms that they know other people are on.
03:50If there's a decline in the number of young people's peers who are on particular platforms, then they may be moving off those platforms as well.
03:59And I think that would be taken to be a measure of success for the legislation.
04:05And when it comes to legislation, has the potential of positive impact perhaps on marginalised youth and how social media can play into that being taken into account?
04:16There are certainly debates about that, just as there are debates about whether a ban is too blunt an instrument through which to address some of these issues.
04:27I think there is a strong case for saying that if there's reduction in online social resources, then there should be a commitment to other resources for young people.
04:37Well, I should say it's not actually a ban on using the internet, that would be ridiculous, but it is a ban on accounts on particular platforms because the view has been taken that holders of accounts can be subject to algorithmic manipulation.
04:57And also, what made 16 the right age for these restrictions?
05:00Well, I think that's a debate.
05:04I mean, one challenge is that, of course, in the US, the threshold age tends to be 13.
05:10And I would say that given that many of these platforms have had a rule for a long time that only those aged 13 or older can hold accounts on them,
05:20had those laws actually been implemented at the time they were created or had those rules been implemented by the platforms, we may not be having this conversation.
05:31But the fact is, for 20 years or more, they, for the most part, haven't.
05:34So we do find ourselves with an arrangement around under 16.
05:40But there is certainly a debate around developmental stages of childhood in that regard, about whether those aged 14, 15 have a greater degree of maturity than those aged 12 or 13.
05:54But I would say, at least in Australia, there's been less conversation about the age at which it's been set, but around the principle itself.
06:02As you alluded to earlier, there's a debate still about the extent in which this maybe constitutes a bit of overreach on the part of authorities.
06:14And there are other countries, developed economies included, that are looking at Australia as a sort of example of what they can bring on to the regulatory environment.
06:25How do you think they will be watching all this as it unfolds?
06:28Well, I think that the principal question will be, in the first instance, will we see mass civil disobedience against the legislation?
06:38I don't think that will happen.
06:40But there's certainly a lot of talk around young people using various measures to circumvent the rules, such as VPNs, such as fake IDs and so on.
06:51Actually, the laws themselves are very difficult to implement without some level of parental support.
06:57So I think the measures are in part about empowering parents who've felt very disempowered in their dealings with young people's use of social media.
07:06And I think that has attracted attention internationally.
07:09Whether the age is going to be the age at which other countries land on will remain to be seen.
07:15In some countries, such as Malaysia and New Zealand, that is the talk.
07:19In others, such as Denmark and France, they're perhaps looking at a lower age, such as 14.
07:24But the general principle that a largely unregulated internet where children basically have access to the same content as adults, a sort of 30-year experiment that we've had in this, has been deemed to have a significant number of downsides.
07:41And the number of people making the case that nothing should be done in this area, I think, has been diminishing over time.
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