- 1 day ago
Category
đŸ“º
TVTranscript
00:00When you join a sacred image to excrement, everybody understands that that is taken to be insulted.
00:10Art often provokes, depending on how you feel about what you're looking at.
00:15It says more about you than about me.
00:27Hi, I'm Brooke Andrew.
00:28I hail from Wiradjuri and Ngunnawal peoples who have inspired and nurtured me on my life journey.
00:35I'm an artist and I've had the honour of exhibiting my work, collaborating with Indigenous and other communities and curating on a global stage from Colombia, France, Japan to the Sharjah and Sydney Biennales.
00:48As an artist, I dig deep to reflect on how we exist in the world and confront painful truths.
00:53This journey often leads into sensitive and sometimes challenging places of taboo.
00:59When I was a younger artist in the 90s, I was very passionate about the visibility of us, you know, about Indigenous culture.
01:12And so I made a work called Sexy and Dangerous and then at one point it became almost taboo.
01:21Like, you know, do I have a right to show this photo or not?
01:25I currently don't use ethnographic imagery anymore in my work.
01:28I feel that I've dealt with this.
01:30Throughout my work, I've witnessed how subjects deemed taboo can trigger intense emotions that extend far beyond the world of art.
01:39Over, like, a 30-year span of someone's career, histories change or politics and religion changes or, you know, society changes.
01:47And so there's always a context around taboo.
01:49And I think one of the most challenging things about an artist that works from a very personal viewpoint of wanting to know more is that once you expose yourself publicly, that thing has its own life and you cannot be in charge of it.
02:06I've been long aware of the nature and power of taboo ideas, so much so that in 2012 I curated an exhibition called Taboo at the Museum of Contemporary Art Australia.
02:19When we were doing the catalogue, there's a very early British watercolour that showed a gollywog getting married to, you know, a pretty white girl with curls and she's crying, crying.
02:37Yet I couldn't put it on the front cover without it being concealed somehow.
02:42So we concealed it with a plastic wrapping.
02:45But you can take the cover off.
02:46So there's this thing where, you know, if you want to, you can reveal it yourself or not reveal it yourself.
02:54There's still so much I want to understand about how we interpret and live taboos.
02:59How do we talk to each other about sensitive subjects without drawing battle lines?
03:03Or is this always inevitable?
03:05And how can artists protect themselves and each other in a polarised world where their livelihoods are under threat from moral crusades or just basic differences?
03:16I want to know who is in charge of taboo because I think that often we're just making our work.
03:24All of a sudden we're placed in something and all the spotlight is on us and we think, whoa, hang on a minute.
03:30How did I get here?
03:31I want to start my journey by talking to an artist who found themselves in the eye of a taboo storm and who stands their own ground of this tale.
03:42In the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, amen.
03:48It's blasphemous.
03:49It's insulting.
03:51Two staff have already been injured in this incident.
03:53I'm not going to put their lives at risk.
03:55Peace Christ is a monumental and provocative photograph of Jesus on the crucifix, immersed in the artist's own urine.
04:04Though the work was already a decade old, Cardinal George Pell sought to ban it from Australian audiences, denouncing the artist as blasphemous.
04:13His injunction failed, but the surrounding media storm incited two teenagers to vandalise the piece with a hammer.
04:19After three days of escalating threats and intimidation from some Christian groups, the National Gallery of Victoria ultimately capitulated and closed the exhibition.
04:30For me, what the children did was foolish, but what the National Gallery has done is irresponsible and criminal.
04:38André, it was great to see you.
04:52Great to see you.
04:55André Serrano's work confronts the raw realities of human existence, sex, death, ethnicity, religion and violence.
05:03Territories where the notion of taboo is constantly at play.
05:06Through his unwavering commitment to his beliefs and his probing of humanity's complexities, Serrano has developed a practice that is both prolific and internationally acclaimed.
05:18His New York home is a shrine and houses a vast collection of religious relics and antiquities.
05:24An irony, given that his art is often seen as provocative or even antithetical to contemporary Christian values.
05:31I was born and raised a Christian, but I was born and raised a poor Christian, you know, and so this came after I made enough money to be able to buy things.
05:4428 years on from this complex cancellation of his work, I'm curious how André's experience has shaped his thoughts on who's in charge of taboo.
05:53If we could transport ourselves back to 1997 and the National Gallery of Victoria were showing your really incredible work, Piss Christ.
06:02What was it like to experience, dare I say, the controversy?
06:06The bad part was the show was cancelled.
06:08The good part was everybody in Australia heard about it, you know.
06:11More people heard about it than would have gone to see the show.
06:14So that's the thing where I say sometimes, you've got to take the good with the bad.
06:18I mean, was that something that was really, I mean, disappointing on a personal level,
06:22that you hoped that people would kind of maybe expand their minds about why you make this work?
06:28Art often provokes.
06:30There's always the new, and sometimes the new is unfamiliar, enough to make people feel uncomfortable.
06:38In my case, I've always said my work is open to interpretation.
06:41When you join a sacred image to excrement, everybody understands that that is taken to be insulting.
06:48Well, actually, no, because I thought he was saying, this is what we are doing to Christ.
06:53We're not treating him with reverence.
06:56We live very vulgar lives.
06:59We've put Christ in a bottle of urine in practice.
07:02Depending on how you feel about what you're looking at, whether it's a picture of someone in a morgue or Ku Klux Klan,
07:10even Donald Trump.
07:11I took a picture of Donald Trump from my America series.
07:13So depending on how you feel about that subject, that particular person, it says more about you than about me.
07:21Because in my work, I don't judge.
07:24I treat everyone the same, and I try to make them all look good.
07:27So who is it in charge of taboos then?
07:30I don't know who's in charge of taboo.
07:32I'm not in charge of taboo.
07:33I'm inspired by Andre's perspective and stamina, how he invites us to form our own engagement with the subjects, regardless of where we draw the line.
07:43Even if we think his images are taboo, their real power is in asking how we chose to interpret the world around us.
07:50For some, taboo can be interpreted as cultural or personal freedom against the status quo.
07:58But on the fine margins of someone else's morality, taboo can bring controversy and even disgust.
08:05One famous provocateur knew this all too well.
08:08And in 1785, the controversial Marquis de Sade created 120 Days of Sodom, the shocking and transgressive novel exploring extreme human cruelty, power and perversion.
08:21But was there method behind the apparent madness of the Marquis?
08:26Who was the Marquis de Sade?
08:28He's alternatively been described as one of the greatest artistic minds that's ever lived and one of the most deranged and monstrous human beings.
08:38And he spent 30 plus years of his life in prison, was never formally charged for anything, but was essentially put away because he was seen as dangerous under three different governments.
08:49What an achievement.
08:50He wrote some of his works while witnessing the daily executions during the reign of terror.
08:57His prison cell was positioned right above the guillotine.
09:02Can you tell me what taboos does the Marquis explore in 120 Days of Sodom?
09:08Might be an easy question to say what taboos aren't covered in this book, frankly.
09:11The book is set around four men of power that document the various sexual taboos that exist.
09:18We have cannibalism, incest, bodily mutilation, flagellation, scatology and murder.
09:28To this day, this is one of the most censored works of pornographic literature that we have.
09:33What do you think the legacy of 120 Days of Sodom is today?
09:39If people say it's too vile and it's too monstrous, there's an argument to be had there.
09:44At the same time, is this meant to be an allegorical story of how power corrupts?
09:51Pornographers in the 18th century were writing to inspire revolution.
09:55And this is the man who, while in the Bastille prison, yells outside of his window through
10:01his piss tube, saying they're killing the prisoners inside, you must help us, and literally inspires
10:07the storming of the Bastille.
10:09So in every sense, you've got this person who is in the midst of this momentous change, but
10:18again, takes it too far at every single moment.
10:22While I don't recommend adding 120 Days of Sodom to your book club, if we look past the
10:28Maki Desaads' depravity, maybe we can see the familiar modern figure of a whistleblower,
10:33even if that whistle was a piss tube.
10:38Challenging ignorance and prejudice head-on can put artists on a collision course that may
10:43come across as taboo.
10:44Even though there is reason for doing this, to deliberately create situations to shock
10:49others into their reality.
10:52But for some, ambiguity isn't on the menu.
10:56Sam Peterson is a visual artist, writer and performer.
11:00The Slow Violence Cookbook is a collection of Sam's writings, interspersed with variations
11:05of the same cake recipe repeated over and over.
11:09I hope they're meant to look like this.
11:14Hey Sam, how are you?
11:18Look, I made one of your cakes, a peanut butter cake.
11:23But I think it looks like a turd.
11:28Very curious to taste.
11:30They weren't all meant to work.
11:32The recipes are all the same cake, but with different flavours to represent the sameness of
11:38the constant ableism.
11:39Or the constant turds.
11:47Apocalypse wheelchair is Sam's latest sculpture.
11:49The rigged out chair features a modified disabled logo, loudspeakers, catheter piss guns and a poo
11:56shoot.
11:56It's being used in a photo shoot for Sam's upcoming short film.
12:00I could really see you burning up the film set with a new version of, I don't know, Tina Turner's
12:07appearance in.
12:11Is it Beyond Thunderdome?
12:12It will be uber-political, containing every bit of taboo I've done and then some, I would
12:20say wrapped in grossness.
12:22But a lot of what I've written about is pretty bad.
12:26It will have pee, defecation, roadkill, ugliness, neglect, loneliness, bullying, infantilization
12:35and plain old abuse, reflecting treatment I have endured in real world scenarios.
12:43In doing so, hopefully showing the world how horrible it can be.
12:47Sam, is taboo your secret weapon?
12:50Not sure what is secret about it, but yes, I do use it like a weapon, because I have every
12:57reason to.
12:57As well as sculpture and performance, Sam recently used collage.
13:03This piece, You Need Us, is a series of ransom letters detailing Sam's demands to an ableist
13:09society.
13:11Art is a powerful communication tool, and how Sam mixes playfulness with genuine anger to
13:17force us to respond is an important act of dignity.
13:21The work confronts deep lying taboos about how people with disabilities are viewed.
13:26Because there is this concept that we have to be grateful for everything.
13:32I laugh the hardest in the grimmest points of my life.
13:37Humor is rage.
13:39Humor is shock.
13:40And we like to shock because we are so full of rage.
13:44And when you are driven to the brink lots of times, you start to see things, and it is
13:48all too tempting to use them in your work.
13:52So Sam, who is in charge of taboo?
13:55I am.
13:59Because I don't care.
14:01Well, I do a little.
14:04When I come up with a concept, I think, hee hee, great idea.
14:09But then I start to doubt myself.
14:12Because I'm not the only one with disabilities in this world.
14:16And I've been through so much indignity that I start to wonder whether I'm doing the right
14:24thing.
14:25But inevitably, I do the taboo because I know it's the only way forward.
14:30And it feels so powerful to take it back.
14:36Okay.
14:37Are we all dying to have a piece of this cake?
14:48Oh my.
14:49It's a little soft inside.
14:53Okay.
14:54Here we go.
14:55Who wants to try some turd?
14:56Do you think that's what taboo tastes like?
15:06An aspect.
15:07Watching Sam take charge of taboo so powerfully is compelling and important.
15:13Another artist who understands the delicate balance of sharing personal stories is Australia's
15:22representative at the 2026 Venice Biennale.
15:26Hey, brother.
15:27Hey, bro.
15:28My dear friend, Khaled Zabsabe, whose work I included in the curated exhibition Taboo
15:34at the Museum of Contemporary Art Australia in 2012.
15:38Welcome, Brooke.
15:39Come in.
15:40We might have a look at content from the archive.
15:44I'm curious to get Khaled's understanding of what taboo means to him, especially in the
15:49context of a global view of migration, spiritual growth, and freedom of speech.
15:54No way.
15:55This is from taboo.
15:58In 2012, he contributed a bird of peace to a work called Vitrines, which collected various
16:04mementos from artists, along with photographs of war, genocide, and conflict.
16:09Look at that.
16:10I'm trying to be happy.
16:11Yeah, I was really happy.
16:13Peace vendor.
16:14I'm still happy, bro.
16:17His family emigrated to Australia in the 1970s, fleeing the civil war in Lebanon.
16:24I remember being in the boot of a car, and then nothing after that, and then just waking
16:30up at a border.
16:31Khaled Zabsabe's remarkable life journey deeply informs his art.
16:37Guided by a commitment to social justice, his immersive installations delve into themes of displacement and belonging, the persistence of hope, and the spiritual dimensions of mysticism and Sufism.
16:49Music and sound is so important to me.
16:52It's sort of multi-sensory experience.
16:56Khaled Zabsabe's artistic journey began in the 1990s, when he was working as a youth worker
17:03and became immersed in Sydney's hip-hop scene.
17:06It was here that he discovered his voice, blending his commitment to activism with his passion for creative expression.
17:13You talk about peace, and you talk about collaboration.
17:17How is Tabu tied up in that for you?
17:20Through my memories of childhood, yes, there was memory of war and trauma.
17:27But there was also moments of religious, spiritual ceremonies.
17:34Khaled's art is an invitation to step into the delicate terrain of ideas, often left unspoken, even taboo.
17:41Yet here, they become spaces for dialogue and reflection.
17:46Rooted in the Sufi path, his work reaches towards the divine through the languages of love, learning and devotion, offering a journey that is at once personal and universal.
17:57We're going to speak about the soul of Sufism, then we have to open the discussion.
18:09And the only way you can actually open the discussion is to cleanse.
18:16Give me your right hand, turn it over.
18:20Turn it over.
18:31Now we can talk about Sufism in Tasawuf.
18:35The idea of a guide and a teacher in Tasawuf is so critical to the point of what is taboo.
18:48With taboo comes knowledge.
18:52You are a custodian of knowledge.
18:55But when you are a custodian of knowledge, there comes responsibility and accountability.
19:07How much of that knowledge do you share?
19:10And with whom are you sharing it with?
19:13Is there a way in which that you thought people might receive your work and there's been a difference in which it has been received?
19:24I don't particularly make work for one type of audience.
19:31It does ask questions, which relates back to the idea of taboo.
19:37Because there's some things that you say, well, that's shame or that's like makruh or haram, which are two Arabic words, which means forbidden.
19:50To make work is about broadening conversations, regardless of ethnicity, regardless of faith, regardless of gender.
20:03And part of making artwork is part of a healing process for me.
20:08So, Khaled, who is in control of taboo?
20:13The person that holds the knowledge, that's who I feel is in control of taboo.
20:23Cut.
20:24Conversations with Khaled remind me that engaging with taboos always carries risk, both for the subjects and for the artists themselves.
20:34It also raises questions I'm often asked.
20:37What is it that artists seek from their audiences when we confront the taboo?
20:42All opposing sides, they're all part of the same thing.
20:46We're all part of this planet.
20:48And if you think about what they say about the universal mind, we're even more connected than we know.
20:55I was one of 200 artists and creators and writers who were invited to the Vatican to hear Pope Francis speak.
21:03And when I went up to the Pope, and I said to him,
21:07Your Holiness, my name is Andre Serrano, and I've come here to ask for your blessing.
21:12And the Pope smiled, he took my hand, he tapped it twice, and then he went like that.
21:18And afterwards, the press said to me, you're the only one he gave a thumbs up to.
21:24I got what I always wanted from Pope Francis, not only an acknowledgement that I was an artist, that I'm a Christian,
21:32but also a thumbs up.
21:35And this is what we need, right, as artists.
21:37I mean, even when things get tough, we need to know that people that we respect are respecting us back.
21:43I think even when you're on opposing sides, you know, because I feel like things are very polarized right now.
21:51There's that group and that group, and they hate each other.
21:54And you need to come to terms with speaking to each other without hate.
22:02The need for respect and understanding is something I think about constantly when creating work with sensitive material.
22:11So this is called Vox Beyond Tasmania.
22:16And it was really a way to resonate the human remains trade and the scientific racism that happened during those periods of colonialism in Australia specifically.
22:29This voxel, this voice, you know, is really an kind of opportunity for these skeletons, these ancestors to speak back to us today.
22:38So it has books, it has research, but it also has originally a human remain like a skeleton.
22:45But recently I decided that scanning it and doing a replica in plastic was the most kind of honorable thing to do,
22:53especially that internationally and within Australia, there's a huge movement of repatriation of human remains.
22:59To confront taboos is to step into uneasy territory when no answer is ever clear.
23:05For artists, the challenge is urgent.
23:07When does the pursuit of truth cross into exploitation or misunderstanding?
23:12Like I even had people from Tasmania saying, is that a Tasmanian Aboriginal skull?
23:15So the Aboriginal community from there ringing me up thinking that I'd done that.
23:19Yeah, there's a lot to consider.
23:21Today, it can sometimes seem that engaging with taboos only fuels ongoing cultural wars,
23:28where delicate and meaningful ideas are too easily dismissed or reduced to offences.
23:34This makes me wonder, how did taboo come to stand as shorthand for conflict, rather than understanding?
23:42To explore this, I turned to Siona Nappefrancis, a collections manager at Melbourne Museum,
23:48whose insights can help trace the deeper origins of taboo.
23:52So Siona, where does the word taboo come from?
23:55The word was originally popularised by Captain Cook in 1777.
24:00He came to Tongatapu, which is the main island of the Tonga group,
24:04and it came to mean something very different to the original word, which is taboo.
24:11Taboo is a relational word.
24:14It's about the sacredness of people and places, and your relationship to it.
24:20Very important to mention the word tulou.
24:23Tulou is a word of respect.
24:27So, for example, a local First Nations elder, if I was going to walk past them,
24:34I would say tulou to show that that person has taboo within them,
24:39and that is something that you need to respect.
24:42So reflecting on the artists we've been speaking with and meeting,
24:46taboo seems to be about power.
24:48Yes, it's more about having difficult conversations about the context that you're in.
24:54For example, acknowledgement of country, it's a way of balancing that power dynamic
25:00and creating space for a real dialogue around difficult questions.
25:05Okay, if taboo is a way of protecting rather than persecuting,
25:11then maybe taking control of taboo means bringing togetherness rather than division.
25:17When embraced in this way, can taboo be understood not as a barrier but as a healing force,
25:25one that restores balance and honest connection.
25:29To continue this journey, I turn to an artist whose work is deeply rooted in her cultural traditions,
25:35carrying forward the living meaning of taboo.
25:39South Pacific Prince, Kingdom of Tonga.
25:41Where is this from?
25:43This is from Tonga. It was my mum's.
25:45This is where the word taboo...
25:49Oh, okay. The way in which taboo is used today internationally, how does it feel?
25:55The word taboo is very limited in the way that it can just mean something is really forbidden.
26:02But for dhapu, this describes how one would sanctify a space as well.
26:09Maybe bringing community.
26:10Exactly. Communities understand when something has been sanctified as sacred,
26:16it determines how they behave with each other and with the space that they're in.
26:20So there's like an understanding in a way.
26:22Totally. And it keeps them safe.
26:24Letai Tomopia is a Tongan Poonake and multidisciplinary artist whose practice is grounded in fai-fai.
26:34A body-centred tradition that weaves together ritual, protest, and ceremony.
26:39She addresses climate justice, ancestral memory, and Pacific sovereignty.
26:44What does taboo or taboo mean to you?
26:47You know, as an artist and as a woman who works with performance and with my body,
26:52I have to take some of those risks.
26:55So risks are not always only dangerous risks, but social risks.
27:00And I think when you work with culture, I think you have to understand that you are making that kind of commitment.
27:08Latai's works are complex physical compositions that allow or even require an audience to participate.
27:18And today I get to see Latai's latest performance in person.
27:22Usually I've done endurance performance work, but this time it's a 15 minute choreographed score.
27:29I work with young people and they learn it, they rehearse it very quickly, and then they perform it.
27:34Through the motion of rowing machines, high school students activate voices recorded in Latai's Tongan village.
27:41This participatory work immerses audiences in rhythms of tradition,
27:46evoking ancestral ties and a living connection with the ocean.
27:50Central to this work is an ancient prayer, or a Himalotu.
27:55I wanted to use that as a way of continuing a communion with the deep sea sediment.
28:04Experiencing the work feels almost hypnotic.
28:07I am not only transported, but also enveloped in a sense of tapu,
28:12for the ocean and connection to ancestors, sacred realms, precious and fragile,
28:18under threat from forces of climate change.
28:20This work is looking at all kinds of different ways of exploring the sacred,
28:25and also as a way into our custodialship of the ocean and our work to defend it.
28:32The deep sea is a very sacred space, it's where we began.
28:36And so that sense of communion is something that I wanted people to experience.
28:41What I admire most about Latai's work is how it comes alive through participation.
28:49It causes us to rise, to engage, and through the transformative power of tapu,
28:55to protect the fragile world we share.
28:58And if that isn't reclaiming the meaning of tapu, I'm not sure what is.
29:04It is serious reflection on history, identity and alternative views
29:08that continues to drive my work.
29:11And sharing time with the extraordinary and brave artists I've encountered on this journey
29:16has only deepened that sense of respect and revealing truths
29:19that are sometimes difficult to reconcile and heal.
29:23Taboos often signal areas of sensitivity and respect,
29:27but they need not stand as roadblocks in life.
29:30If we approach them with courage, imagination, care and a willingness to listen,
29:35taboos can become guides, opening pathways to new ideas and new worlds through art and beyond.
29:42And beyond.
Be the first to comment