- 5 hours ago
Well Enough ep 12 Dr Alex George and Anna MathurSource The Independent
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00:00Please be aware that this episode contains references to suicide, so please take care
00:04while listening. Why are we so into the idea of being happy and why are we so afraid of being
00:09unhappy? I kind of think of it this way, that every emotional state has its role. And if you
00:13think about someone sat in a control room with lots of levers of like happiness, anger, sadness,
00:18guilt, shame, all these different things, those levers all have a job and they all need to work
00:22at the right time. But what we don't want to have is be stuck on sad all the time. We don't really
00:26be stuck on happy all the time either. Like if you failed an exam, the loved one's passed away,
00:30a bit strange to walk around smiling, la la la la, I'm so happy. But ultimately we do want to be in
00:35a state where when the times come that we would normally be happy, whether it's on holiday or
00:40with a group of good people, that you're able to access that feeling. And so many people that say
00:44are extremely depressed, they have this kind of anhedonia or this lack of ability to feel
00:48that emotion. And that's a scary feeling to have. You've talked there about happiness as a kind of,
00:53you can have a deficiency of it almost. You can, there can be a condition where you don't feel it.
00:58I want to ask you, Anna, is happiness just hormones firing in the body?
01:03I mean, it's definitely, we know about kind of the serotonin and the endorphins,
01:07like the happy hits and serotonin that kind of makes us feel good. But it's so much more than that.
01:13There are so many other things in our lives, you know, that we, we can recognize if we're in a
01:18situation, you know, that we'd normally enjoy and we're just not able to access that. Then I think
01:22that was a bit of a flag, isn't it? But yeah, there were just so many other different states,
01:26but we had to feel safe, to feel happy. There are definitely times when if I'm stressed,
01:31for example, if you're in that kind of activated nervous system state, you know, the fight or
01:35flight, the sympathetic nervous system, as we call it, you know, you're, you're braced. And when I am
01:39with my kids, for example, I've got three young kids and if they're feeling really joyful, I have
01:43no sense of humor when I'm stressed. It is really hard to kind of feel safe enough and at ease
01:49enough to feel present. So I think so many of us, we're living so fast, you know, we're living so
01:55braced where we're just kind of waiting for the next curveball to come. And we're questioning,
02:00you know, where is the joy? Where is the ease? Like, I'm not laughing as much as I have done.
02:05And often that is just because we're, we're stressed and we might not even realize it. And then
02:10happiness becomes so much harder to access.
02:14Because the brain isn't, you have that different, the brain has different states of being depends on
02:17whether it needs to deal with stress or not. And if you're constantly in that kind of stress
02:20that your cortisol is high, the brain is primed to deal with problems. It's not in a position
02:24to express happiness, you know, firing a serotonin and, and dopamine and endorphins is kind of good
02:29feeling hormones. And I think modern society is not well placed for people to be, as you say,
02:34almost in a receiving position for happiness and joy. And the thing about even like peace,
02:39right, you have to be in a position to receive peace, isn't it? It's like you can go on holiday
02:43to a really beautiful island, can't you? And you sit there and you're like, straddle,
02:47I wouldn't work next week. The emails, oh my God, did I do this? Like you're not in a position
02:50to receive the experience.
02:52Yeah, we can feel so much guilt, can't we? You know, we're like, but I'm so grateful
02:55for this thing. I'm so grateful for being on this holiday. And I describe it as like,
02:59so many of us are living in a waiting room for bad things to happen. We're just kind of there
03:04in this braced position and wondering why we're not kind of able to lean into the joy and the good
03:11things around us. And it kind of feels we can see it, but we don't kind of feel it. And I think
03:16there are so many things in our culture that give us dopamine, like that feel good chemical,
03:21you know, that kind of that finds us kind of reaching and it's very motivating. And I feel
03:25like we can confuse that for happiness because it feels good in the minute, but it passes so quickly
03:31and it doesn't tend to give us that kind of soul filling like joy. I think there's a difference
03:37between like happiness and joy. I think so. And people fake it a lot, don't they? I mean,
03:42we live in this culture of almost toxic positivity is a term that gets thrown around quite a lot. And
03:47I wonder whether it's quite damaging to put on a brave face and pretend that you're happy,
03:53you know, with social media or pretending that we're having a lovely time. We're seeing the
03:57highlights reels. But I wonder if you can comment on this, Anna, how potentially damaging is it if we're
04:04putting on a happy face and pretending to be happy when actually we're not?
04:08Yeah. I mean, I think so many of us relate to that back when, you know, I went through a big
04:12period of depression and I think I wore that mask and it would literally be a mask I put on. I'd go
04:17into the toilets at work and I'd just cry and probably call my mum. And then I would literally
04:22put on another layer of makeup, light the mask and walk out. And for a long time, no one knew,
04:26but then that mask becomes so heavy. You know, it's really hard to pretend to be in a state that
04:32you're not. And then you don't feel safe in your body because you're not able to be authentic.
04:36And then everyone around you is kind of relating to a version of you that you know is removed from
04:42who you actually are. And it, yeah, it gets absolutely exhausting. And people know our
04:47nervous systems are so attuned to each other. You know, when you've got a friend and they're like,
04:51yeah, I'm fine. And you're like, I know you're not. I know you're not fine. But also I've got this
04:56voice and I call it my Mary Poppins voice at home with the kids when I'm just being driven,
05:00you know, wild. And I'm like, hi kids. And I've got this really happy voice, but I can see it.
05:06They know and they can sense that gap between the happy voice and what's obviously going on in my
05:12body. And it's in their little nuances of how we hold ourselves and what our face is doing when no
05:18one is looking. And sometimes people just catch it slightly. And it's a mask that becomes really,
05:23really heavy and really costly to hold up.
05:27Alex, you've been someone that has spoken so candidly about your feelings in a way that
05:33is marvellous because so many of us struggle to do that. I wonder for you whether actually saying,
05:40I'm not feeling good or I am feeling happy, you know, talking about your lowest moments
05:44was really frightening and really difficult for you or whether, you know, maybe it was quite
05:49liberating because it seems like we should all be able to do that.
05:52Maybe I'm the great oversharer. I guess that's ADHD and neurodivergence. It's like, oh God,
05:56maybe I shouldn't overshare that much. It's probably a bit of both. I talked recently about
06:02being diagnosed with OCD, which I think in reality I've been struggling with probably about 15 years
06:06or more. And there's some sense of like relief with also the sense of like, I don't know,
06:13it wasn't easy, I wouldn't say, to share because, especially now, because people look to me and say,
06:19you know, you're this mental fitness advocate, you're this mental health campaign, all this
06:22kind of stuff. You therefore should be whole and fixed all the time. But, you know, what I
06:26kind of want to, the reason I share is that life is very messy, people are messy. And often the
06:31people that seem to have it most together often really don't. And so I really just wanted to kind
06:36of show people like real life isn't like that. And you can experience difficult things like, you know,
06:42as all of us would have experienced at times or certainly will, unfortunately. Grief is part of life and
06:48that's difficult. Ups and downs, your mental health is inevitable. But yeah, I guess, you know,
06:52originally when I shared the first time I talked about taking antipressants was three or four years
06:57ago. I remember being sat there basically about to start Sertraline and I had the tablet put in
07:03my hand, about to take it. And I felt a lot of shame. And I thought this is like, this is crazy
07:07because I'm talking about mental health. I'm doing this campaign, but I feel shame around. And so I
07:10thought, no, what I'm going to do is the opposite. I'll take a photo of this. I'll post online. So I'm
07:14just taking antipressants, whatever. And it like went like really big. It was the way I post your
07:18pill started. And like, it was no sense me saying that everyone take medication or anything. It's
07:23not a pro medications, anti stigma. It's the fact that at that time I felt a great degree of shame.
07:28So it wasn't easy to do that, but I felt, I guess, a liberation. And I think a lot of people talked
07:32about that, has told me that over the years that they felt like a liberation when they share or they
07:36see someone else talking about it. So I guess I hope that by me sharing, it'll help them. But selfishly,
07:42I think it helps me as well. I think to kind of come around and answer your question, I do believe
07:45there is a level of selfishness where you feel like I'm sharing with you. So I feel like I feel
07:50better by telling you about it. I feel less like I'm hiding this thing. So it's a two way thing. I
07:55think it helps me as much as other people. You're an expert in that though, aren't you,
07:58Anna? Knowing that, you know, a problem shared is a problem. It's a cliche, but it works. This is why
08:04we talk. Yeah, absolutely. And I think it gets really lonely behind the mask. Like you can really
08:08start believing that you are the only one that feels that way. And I think selfishly also with
08:13my work, you know, I have this privileged position as a therapist to see the behind the scenes of so
08:18many people, you know, where people talk about intrusive thoughts and they talk about kind of
08:23the internal critic that could maybe be kind of more, even more abusive than critic. I know that
08:28I'm not alone. So when I talk openly about my own intrusive thoughts and my own kind of mental
08:34health journey, I know factually that I'm not alone. And I think when we start talking about
08:39things openly, you know, that shame, it just starts chipping away at that shame. And then you
08:43get so many, you get response from people saying, oh my gosh, I thought I was alone. And it just kind
08:48of fuels you onwards. But I think, you know, feeling like you've got to hold it all together. And I've
08:54been the queen of that in the past, can sometimes be the defense against kind of falling apart and
09:00having that trust that if you open up, what will life look like? Will everyone run away?
09:05You know, I really used to fear that vulnerability, my own vulnerability, and I think becoming a
09:11therapist was in a way, a way to continue holding up the mask of like, you don't need to look at me,
09:15I'm fine. Let's talk about you. So I kind of even turned it into a job. But yeah, I used to fear that
09:20my own vulnerability would push people away. But actually, the opposite is true. You know,
09:26it's vulnerability that connects us. That's really important, especially for guys. I think
09:31men in particular worry that if they say that they're struggling, then their wives or their
09:35girlfriend will leave them, people will respect them in the workplace. You know, I really think
09:39the vulnerability thing, a big part of I think men dig down to it, the reason that they're afraid
09:43to be vulnerable is I think they'll be abandoned. If you look at the statistics, I mean, 75% of suicides
09:48are male, but also, on average, a woman who does take her life will present between 20 and 30
09:55times to services to get help. There'll be lots of opportunities are opening up that's happened.
10:00And yet, sadly, we've still perhaps failed them. But with men, often, there's no opportunity. My
10:04brother died five years ago with virtually no warning. We knew he was going through a bit of
10:08a difficult time. We were talking difficult here, not where he was. And I think it's because of a
10:12fear of what will this mean? If I share this vulnerability, will I be alone now? I think we
10:17have to challenge that. And I also want to challenge the narrative as well that, you know,
10:21back in the day, no one struggled, everyone got on with it. I mean, we just hid
10:24mental illness hugely. We buried it behind alcohol and other things. We hid it a lot
10:31to ourselves, but hid it in society. And look, it was a crime until 1961 to take your own
10:35life. It's why the word committed suicide exists. You commit a crime, commit arson, but
10:39people still say committed suicide all the time. So it's not that people are now, well,
10:44actually, in fact, people are struggling more for lots of reasons, but it's not that suddenly
10:48it's become a thing. It was always there. We just buried it. And that behavior spilled out
10:53in active relationship behaviors, drugs, alcohol, job loss, homelessness, all these things are
11:00just like ways that this effect was happening without us really acknowledging it as being
11:05a mental health issue.
11:06I hope that you're finding Dr. Alex and Anna's advice useful. Conversations like this are so
11:12crucial for advancing mental health resourcing in the UK. If you want to support us so we can
11:17keep making episodes like this, one thing you can do is like this video and subscribe to the
11:22channel. Thank you.
11:23Do you think there's more focus now on the pursuit of happiness then? Have we improved
11:29even though we speak more openly about mental health? You talked about barriers, barriers
11:35to entry for seeking support in certain demographics. Are we getting better at the pursuit of happiness?
11:41Is there more support there?
11:42I think one of the things I'd like to see is a start changing the way that we view mental
11:48health. So mental health includes severe mental illness on one side and perfect mental health
11:51on the other side. Realistically, most people don't have perfect mental health. You'll sit
11:55somewhere on that spectrum. Hopefully the people here, we can get into better spots.
11:59And so I think we need to move away from just seeing the goal is reducing, just reducing
12:03illness. Clearly we want to do that, but surely we should try and build positive mental fitness,
12:07which is where that word's come from. And over the last few years, that's kind of what
12:10I've become interested in. It's like, okay, if we build mental fitness, do we create capacity
12:15and opportunity for joy? Yes. If we build mental fitness, do we build resilience against
12:19illness? Yes. Does it mean resilience doesn't happen? Absolutely not. But just like a footballer
12:24or a sports person will recover quicker because of their fitness if they have a leg break,
12:28if you're going through a difficult time, you have good resilience. And resilience also means
12:31the people around you, who's in your toolkit, what support networks you have, we get you back
12:35better. And I think this has to start early and at school. And it's why, you know, I wrote
12:39Happy Habits, which is a book I've written for children, nine plus, nine to 14. And the goal of
12:45that book fundamentally is to give children the tools that I think school systems should be giving
12:50them to build mental fitness. So that's developing healthy habits and relationships with the nature,
12:56learning how to, you know, how to exercise, bring movement into their days, how to deal with
13:00things like connection, how to deal with challenges like, okay, they're not on social media, but they're
13:05using phones and tech a lot of the time, all of these challenges. And I think I look back and
13:09I think if I'd have been given even some of those tools, and the science of why it happens,
13:14because there is science, but this isn't just like fluffy stuff, it is hard science,
13:18I think probably you would have reduced, I think a lot of my suffering would have been reduced. I
13:22think I probably would have been a lot happier as a child.
13:24I think I would have been too. If I'd been given a toolkit where I could understand why I was feeling
13:30a certain way and how to how to manage those emotions, it would have really helped me. But I wonder
13:34why it is that we learn to ascribe emotions in particular ways when we're young. You know,
13:41why are we taught that certain emotions have certain value, we get left feeling quite alone
13:45with our emotion, don't we? Because we get told that we shouldn't be feeling that, you know,
13:49and it's often well meaning, because I've got three kids. And as a parent, you know, it is hard to see
13:53your child struggling, it is hard to see them upset, you see them disappointed, you see them let down,
13:58and you see them grappling with all sorts of things. And I think historically, there's this
14:03desire to kind of save someone from those feelings, because actually, the parent finds it
14:09uncomfortable. And we kind of teach this in a very, you know, accidental way, this kind of like
14:15self abandonment, you know, because what you were saying is, we fear being vulnerable, because we fear
14:19being abandoned. But as adults, we are often and children consistently abandoning ourselves in the
14:26pursuit of pleasing other people. And it comes about in so many ways, you know, when we're young,
14:31our caregivers are our life source, our life force, and we need to be connected to them. So
14:36if we're feeling upset and angry, maybe we come home from school, and we chuck our school bag down,
14:42and we're like really upset about something that happened, but it's coming out in that kind of
14:45rageful way, as it often does. And you've got a parent being, you know, just basically telling you off,
14:51you know, pick that up. And then you what you do is you feel like, I can't,
14:56be how I feel, I've got to put it down, I'm not acceptable. And then we learn, we create these
15:01rules around what are good feelings and what are bad feelings and what are acceptable and what are
15:06unacceptable. And I think when you tell a child not to be angry, it doesn't mean that they're not
15:12going to be angry, it just means they're not going to show you how they're feeling that that anger then
15:17just gets internalized. You know, I grew up with trauma going on because my younger sister had cancer.
15:23And I wanted to be a good girl. And the thing is, it's affirmed culturally, like, because you're often easy.
15:30You're, you're a little, you want to please people to stay connected to them. Really, it's a survival mechanism.
15:36You know, I have learned that to be good and kind and small and neat and tidy means that people like me.
15:43And it's really hard to undo that and think, you know what, actually, I feel really angry, but that's
15:48okay. Anger isn't a bad emotion. It's there to prompt us to recognize that maybe a boundary has
15:54been crossed or there's some injustice or it's a response to circumstances. And there are really
15:59healthy ways to express this. So with my kids, I see all these different emotions. And sometimes I
16:05literally have to sit on my kind of metaphorical hands and bite my tongue to say,
16:09it's okay that you feel like that. I understand that you feel like that. But also to learn to allow
16:15myself not to abandon my own emotions and find healthy ways to acknowledge and value and validate
16:22and process them. So yeah, I think we're doing a lot of undoing culturally now in the rules and the
16:29stories that we've, that we have around good and bad feelings.
16:33Alex, do you think that we are more plastic as kids? Like, do we have more capacity to learn these
16:39things and then hold them in our brains so that we can move through adulthood? Is it much easier if
16:45we just teach kids how to deal with this stuff young?
16:47I think, you know, there's never too late to change and we can learn new habits and new ways of
16:52being at any age. We know that. But it is, I think, easier to form these things when you're young. And I
16:58kind of, the way I kind of get my head around is that if you imagine a mountain that's had a load of
17:02snow dumped on it, it's fresh snow on there, the first people to hike up the mountain have a bit
17:06of a difficult job because they've got to push through the snow. But everyone that follows kind
17:09of follows that path and becomes well-trodden. And there'll be a couple of routes, but it'll be
17:13well-trodden routes that you follow. If someone wants to go off peace later in life and create a
17:18new route, that kind of means deviating from what you've always done. And that takes a bit of work
17:21and consistency to say to them, no, go on, use this new path, new path. Eventually snow will fall and the old
17:26path will become covered. But if we can do that in the beginning, so it'd be the first
17:30roots of the mountain and create those good paths, then that becomes much easier to then just follow
17:35throughout life. So I think giving children, you know, the tools, teaching them like why these
17:41things matter, you know, means that it'll be in place for life. With children, it's more difficult
17:47for them to see the delayed gratification bit. So you have to really work hard on the why and
17:52understanding why they're doing it because that will help them form the habit. But once the habit's
17:57created, you do each day. And so much of what I've tried to talk about, like building the habits,
18:00is use the science, like start with the fundamentals of the children, create like the structure and the
18:05habits, teach them the science and stack those habits off the back of them. And by teaching
18:09children, getting them into that routine, I mean, it becomes habits for life.
18:13When we try to learn these habits, what are the things that might stop us? I mean, whether or not you
18:19are six or 60, what's standing in the way of us changing those habits? Because when we talk about it like
18:24this, it seems really easy. It seems like, oh, great, okay, I will just make that small change.
18:29But a lot of the time, people struggle with this stuff, don't they?
18:32But very quickly, I think one of the biggest challenges is that people rely on motivation
18:36too long. Motivation only gets you so far. So often in January, for example, we're motivated to
18:41perhaps start going for a walk outside, because you think that's a great thing to do. We've read about
18:45the benefits of nature to mental health, it shrinks our amygdala, our fear centre, it makes you feel
18:49positive, the serotonin, right? And I start walking. First few weeks, you kind of have the motivation to get up and
18:54head outside and do it. But eventually, you know, February drags on, it's raining, it's wet, I think
18:58I look out the window and say, oh God, it's not a nice day today. And that's where discipline has
19:02to come in. And discipline, I think, is achieved when you really truly understand the why, and you
19:07commit to the why beyond how you feel in the moment, that's discipline. So it's going like it's wet
19:12outside, but I'm still going to walk because I know it's good for me. So for me, the biggest challenge is
19:16that we need to learn to transition well for motivation, which is great. You need to be motivated because
19:20that's what triggers you to want to do it. But you have to transition to discipline and to
19:24understanding the why. And that with children is really important. So supporting them in that bit,
19:29really helping them understand why they're doing this thing. Let's get into the science of dopamine,
19:33let's talk why they're doing it. And that will help them anchor into the reward system.
19:37Absolutely. Anna, how hard do you think it is to rewire our brains as adults, I guess,
19:43it would be my next question. Because, you know, say someone's listening to this podcast,
19:46and they're thinking about changing the way that they think. And they think, I'd really like to up
19:51my happiness level. How do I turn that dial? You know, it's difficult to rewire ourselves.
19:55Yeah, because we take the path of least resistance, we go down the well trodden path,
19:59whatever that is. And I think sometimes one of the challenges is that do we actually genuinely believe
20:05that we deserve the positive outcome? Because if we are struggling with self esteem, we're struggling
20:11with confidence. And actually, you know, sometimes it kind of fits better just to sabotage a little
20:16bit. You know, it can be if you don't value yourself or feel that you really are actually
20:22deserving in and of yourself of good things, then going after good things, that inner saboteur
20:28comes out and goes, you don't really deserve to feel good.
20:31You can be cynical, can't you?
20:33Yeah.
20:33And think, oh, I'm not the kind of person that jumps out of bed and makes my bed and is joyful.
20:37And it's an upward spiral. So the more, you know, sometimes I think we wait to feel
20:42like we deserve good change. Instead of catapulting ourselves, often we use shame to catapult
20:47ourselves into shame, right? You know, we wait until we feel so ugh and disgusting that
20:52we almost like force ourselves. So maybe we just like go on an all out binge and then from
20:57Monday, it's like, right, everything changes. And we use shame to kind of catapult us into
21:03change. But then as soon as we fall off this very kind of thin tightrope of, you know, because
21:08I think we can be quite black and white thinking about it. You know, I'm either on a good track
21:12or I'm on a bad track. And I love to think about more of the time, not all of the time,
21:17because sometimes you will be ill. Sometimes you will roll over in the morning and you'll just
21:21that inner child and you'll be like, no, no, no. And it will just completely win out.
21:25And then it's so easy for everything just to be like, oh, sod that then. Completely failed.
21:31You know, instead of thinking, oh, OK, I'm just going to do I'm going to pick it up again
21:35tomorrow. You know, we sit in that place of like shame again until we're ready to kind of launch
21:40ourselves out of it. And I think just taking a really human approach, holding on to your why,
21:47but also having the grace to think, you know what? I messed up. That wasn't the best choice.
21:52But having grace for ourselves, I think, of knowing that this is a journey and it's a process
21:57and we're going to take little detours, but we can always just get back on. We can just get back
22:02into that habit. Does it mean that all is lost? So going gently, but also recognising that as you
22:08do these things, they're so powerful. These are basically statements to yourself saying you might
22:13not believe it and you might not feel like it, but you are deserving of this walk and the goodness
22:18that it will bring you. And it sends you on a different kind of spiral.
22:22As you say, it's discipline, not perfection. It's a really good point you make. It's like it's not
22:27about it's 80 percent of the time. It's not 100 percent of the time. My dad always used to say to me,
22:30actually, lots of advice it gave me has not been the best, but it's given me some good advice.
22:34One of the best things he ever said is good enough is good enough. And I think that is a really good
22:38way of looking at it because I always used to be kind of overachieving, trying to get perfect in
22:41exams, trying to get 100 percent. If I didn't get like 98 percent, I'd be really annoyed. My dad was
22:46like, what's the A grade? Or even if you don't, what do you need to get? A B or an A? I need an A.
22:50Okay, fine. So what's the percentage you need to get? Okay, if you've got 1 percent over that or that
22:53percent, that's great. You know, and I think there is something about like perfectionism is problematic.
22:58So when I say discipline, I'm talking about what you do most of the time. Your diet does not need,
23:02like enjoy the pizza, enjoy the, you know, and sleep is another one. People are obsessed with
23:06sleep routines. Really good. Sleep is very important. It makes a huge difference. But if
23:09your sleep routine is good throughout the week, comes to Friday, your friends want to go to watch
23:13the theatre and it finishes at 11, but you go to bed at nine, go to the theatre. Right? It's like,
23:19there's got to be this flexibility within this. Discipline does not mean being like never living
23:25and I'm only going to do this way. And if I, as you say, all or nothing thinking, that is not what
23:29we're talking about. You've touched so beautifully on the premise of this whole podcast, which is
23:34you can be well enough. Yeah. You don't have to be perfect. Not every day has to start with
23:38perfection. Being well is very much about doing your best, isn't it? I think practical strategies
23:44as well is somewhere that I really want to go with this conversation because obviously you've both
23:48written books where you offer so much incredible advice that is actionable. You know,
23:53it's not high in the sky stuff. It's stuff that you can take hold of and you can apply every single
23:58day. So I do want to talk a little bit about practical strategies, how we can raise the
24:03collective happiness of, you know, the people in our own lives, our communities, and then more
24:09broadly, you know, how do we raise the happiness level of the world? Is that something that we can
24:15see in our lifetime? Do you think that it's possible, Alex? I think so. I think there's lots of
24:19ways that we start on the kind of, I think a lot of the ways you can feel better as being
24:22like kind to others. And it sounds very cliched, but I think we've got to be serious about this,
24:27that, you know, loneliness is a huge issue and loneliness is a big challenge faced by a lot of
24:32young people. In fact, the loneliest generation is the young generation at the moment. And why does
24:37it matter? Well, it's not just about feeling bad when you're lonely. It affects your health. So
24:41loneliness is as damaging to your health as smoking 15 cigarettes a day. People really do understand
24:46the damage of cigarettes. So it gives you like an idea of loneliness. I think we need to move
24:50away from focusing on how do we stop people feeling lonely? What we want to do is make people feel
24:54really connected and joyful and enjoy the connection. And the byproduct is that they're not lonely,
24:58which is great. And I think that's something we have to work on because things like the digital
25:03connection is actually making us disconnected in real life. So you hear a lot about the negative
25:07effects of social media and so on. It's well spoken about, but I think the displacement effect isn't so
25:12much. So, you know, on average, a 25 year old now, 25 or under will spend six hours a day on their
25:18phone. You sleep for eight hours and you've got to work for eight hours or whatever it is. You've
25:21only got eight hours. That's for showering, eating, doing everything. Six out of eight hours on the
25:25phone. So the displacement is like being on your phone versus out for a walk, as you said,
25:30being on a phone versus hanging out with friends, being on your phone versus sitting and eating dinner
25:34at the table with your family. You know, so I think what we have to do is start looking at where we spend
25:39our time and start looking. How do I now connect with others? Can I be, can I go out and be kind
25:43of apply kindness to this situation and go and help out somewhere? Or do I need to just simply start
25:48with something like joining a club each week or whatever it is? I think you have to actively now
25:52make effort to connect with others. If you say you've got no time, I'm not being mean. I'm not
25:57being like, oh, everyone's got time. People are busy, especially I'm not a parent, a parent, you're busy,
26:01but I'd still say, do look at your phone and see how many hours you're on there. And if you're on there
26:07for six hours, five hours, steal an hour a day there and spend it in real life with someone,
26:12arrange that coffee day once a week, whatever it is, like make an effort to connect. It's so
26:16important. I think one of the biggest things that's affecting people's happens at the moment
26:20is lack of connection. It certainly did for me, I think a lot, and I still work on it.
26:24Yeah. It's not like the fulfilling kind of connection, is it? You know, I think we have,
26:27we know we have like physical energy, but we also have like social energy and we have a limited amount.
26:32And I think it's so easy to send the messages and, you know, to send a few voice notes and
26:38reply to some DMs. And, but what we don't realise is we are draining that social capacity. So then
26:44when a friend is like, oh, do you want to get together? I'm literally like, no, I do not. I
26:48do not have the capacity. You know, so we're kind of spending that social capacity and using it up in
26:54ways that do not, it's connection, but it's not fulfilling. I read an article about that the other day.
27:00It was really interesting because it said, the reason we feel so burnt out is because
27:06rather than going and spending four hours off phones, just playing out like we used to when
27:11we were kids, we're snatching that time and we're using it in ways that are so different. And then
27:17we're going and being in like a loud place where everyone's shouting and we're kind of catching up
27:21really, really quickly. Okay, great. See you next time. It's not very authentic and it doesn't bring
27:26us the same joy. And that's why even though we're seeing our friends, we still feel quite lonely.
27:30It's like I had a neuroscientist on my podcast, Stompcast, the other week, and he's an expert in
27:35decision fatigue. And it's fascinating. We make like over 30,000, 40,000 decisions a day. It's
27:41crazy numbers. I can't remember if that's exactly right, but a huge number of decisions. And he was
27:44saying how when you spend half an hour on your phone in the morning, you are burning your decision
27:49energy. Like what you don't realize, you think it's a passive process. Like, not like. Do I enjoy the video?
27:54Do I not? Scroll on, not scroll on. If you spend half an hour doing that, you are, before you start your
27:57day, burning your decision energy, which makes you worse at your job, worse at life. But also
28:02is burning your, as you say, literally energy to go and spend time with people. And we think,
28:07oh God, I can't bother. I'm so tired. It's because you spend like four hours a day zapping your
28:10synaptic energy into a phone. I find it really interesting as well to see how wellness intersects
28:15with technology. Because you see a lot of really interesting innovations, a lot of founders trying to
28:20use technology for good. But ultimately, I wonder whether or not the wellness boom
28:25is helping us. Whether like kind of zoning in on all these kinds of services and apps and
28:30whatnot is helping us. Do you think that we're headed for success when it comes to mental health
28:36outcomes? I mean, Anna, do you think that the wellness boom is good for kids and good for us
28:41rewiring our brains? Or do you think perhaps there are some drawbacks there?
28:43I think it's giving us a lot of information, you know, but I think often it lacks the caveats.
28:48It lacks the small prints. You know, there's a lot there and we can so easily kind of buy
28:53into what we're seeing, especially if someone is saying it articulately enough or loud enough.
28:57And it makes me think of the kind of positive psychology gratitude movement, right? And this
29:02was so integral when it came to COVID and everyone was stuck and grumpy and feeling lonely. And it
29:10was like gratitude, you know, and I use this so much, you know, I'm, I might be homeschooling kids
29:15and just dealing with meltdowns, but I'm grateful that I'm not, you know, working in a hospital. I'm
29:19so glad that I'm not. And we, a lot of us used it as a stick, really, to beat ourselves up with
29:25for feeling overwhelmed. You know, it was like, I felt overwhelmed or stressed. I'm like, no, but I'm
29:30so grateful. And it was, I think we can use gratitude to shame ourselves when actually I think
29:36gratitude. I would definitely say gratitude has changed my life. It's changed my mental health.
29:41I think so many people find it the most incredible tool, but I love the word and, and I always
29:46encourage people to use the word and, you know, gratitude is like turning on a light bulb in a
29:51dark room. We often, when we're feeling stressed or we're going through something grieving, you know,
29:56we, our focus is kind of almost honed in on that thing. And it's, you feel like, you know, sometimes
30:02gratitude just enables you to kind of zoom out a little bit and think about
30:06there are also good things, you know, so you can think I'm overwhelmed and I'm grateful.
30:13You know, I'm feeling really stressed and I recognize the privilege of this position. I think,
30:20you know, what, just allowing those things to sit beside one another means that actually,
30:26and Brene Brown calls gratitude, she says it's like joy stored up for hard times. And a couple of years
30:32ago, we went through a really, really traumatic time as a family. It was awful. And I remember
30:36walking around the fruit farms that I actually walked around with you, Alex, on your Stompcast
30:40podcast. And, you know, my husband and I, we were just kind of grieving, we were crying, we were
30:45talking. And then this deer just kind of jumped across the path. And in the midst of tears, I was
30:50like, look at that deer. And it was so beautiful because it was like in the midst of all of this
30:55grief, I had almost trained in myself this ability to be open to joy, you know, to be open to
31:01gratitude. And it wasn't like I saw that deer and I was like, my, my problems are ridiculous.
31:06There's a whole world out here. You know, I didn't use that beautiful moment to kind of shame
31:10myself for being upset in this beautiful place. It was just the end. So I think, you know,
31:14gratitude can be an amazing tool. But the way that I didn't know the way that it was, it gets framed
31:20sometimes on social media is kind of the shaming of like, you shouldn't feel the other spectrum of
31:24human emotion. You should just always feel grateful. But actually, we can invite joy into the hard
31:29times too. We can find little bubbles of happiness in the tough times too. And it can keep us going.
31:35Thank you for sharing that experience. That's, that's incredible. And I guess it's,
31:38it really illustrates how it's about expanding to hold all those emotions, isn't it? And I think
31:42that's what the book teaches us, right? The idea that so many things can be true at once, but it's
31:48about how we respond to them, how we react to them. And I, you know, I really want to, to try and pull
31:55out some more practical tools as well, while we're here, because I think there's, there's so much in
31:59the book that can help kids, but it can also help adults really, really understand how to deal with
32:05those complex emotions. I wonder if you wouldn't mind telling us, Alex, about maybe, you know, one of
32:10the exercises or one of the tips that are in the book that can help someone to reframe those thoughts.
32:15Yeah, absolutely. And I think, just to just add what you're saying just briefly, though, with, I think
32:19there's so much great advice out there. And I think using, like, it's listening to the right experts who
32:23are experts, like, like Anna, but also think the wellbeing industry, it's like, we can't see that as
32:28the cure for mental health, you have to deal with social issues, you need to fund and reform the
32:32education system, you need to fund initiatives to improve social care and to improve housing
32:38situations and living standards. You can't just be like, oh, they're gonna be really happy if we
32:41haven't fixed all these challenges. So I just think that sometimes a gloss of the wellbeing space
32:46can seem like, okay, if we just do these things, that fixes everything. It doesn't. It's part of
32:51it. Bigger picture thinking is important. That's why you've got to hold the government accountable.
32:55You know, but in terms of like things we can do, because it does come back to like, okay,
32:59but what do I do in the moment? How do I, like, build my health and look after my mental fitness,
33:04despite this imperfect world that we live in? And I think these are tricks and tools that you can
33:09use at any age. It depends what you're trying to do. I mean, for example, I talk about like the
33:14two minute try, um, when you're trying to like do something that is, you know, is probably important
33:19and good for you, for example, like tidying a room, you know, I think, which is, you know,
33:22you're having your home and your space and a tidy space can, can be helpful to how you feel.
33:27So how do I get started with this? And it's useful if you've got ADHD, but for anyone that's kind of
33:31procrastinating, it's like, right, what I'm going to do is I'm going to do this thing for two minutes
33:35and I'll only do it for two minutes. And if I want to continue the end of two minutes, I will,
33:39if I won't, I'll just stop. So you just stop, watch, go. And it basically gets you over that
33:43initiation hump of, of actually being able to do something. And what happens is you start doing
33:47it, you get a little hit of dopamine, reward hormone, and before you know it, the whole room
33:50is, is, is sorted. So using things like that is really helpful for tasks that you think can be
33:55good and can be helpful. I like that one. Uh, other tricks you can use again, using cues to trigger
34:01good habits. So a good example I like is that, you know, if you're a child going to school, um, put an
34:06apple in the backpack every day. And the cue is as soon as you leave school every day, grab the apple from
34:11the side pocket, eat an apple. Um, after a week or so, it becomes a habit and it's like reaching
34:17the apple without even thinking about it. So it's finding opportunities in your day triggered by
34:23transitions or moments that cause you to do something good. Use moments and anchors to add
34:29things to, to, to the existing habits and, and start small. I think the biggest thing I would say,
34:34you know, I went through a very difficult time a few years ago where I was drinking a lot. I was
34:38over 20 stone in weight. I was really struggling with grief. Um, I was overworking all this kind
34:42of stuff. And I, you know, fast forward now, and I've run the London marathon this year. I'm
34:46pretty fit. Um, in a very different place. I'm very much going through my own struggles
34:50and other parts of, of, of health, but of my mental health. But on a whole, if you look
34:55at me, I'm miles away from where I was a long way away. I didn't overhaul that overnight.
35:00I started by putting down the drinks. I'm not drinking anymore. I'm going to go for a walk.
35:04I went for a walk every day. And after I was in the habit of walking every day, a few weeks later,
35:09on average, it takes like 66 days to form a habit. Some habits form earlier, some take longer.
35:14After a few weeks, I was in the habit of walking every morning. Then I was like, right, I'm going
35:17to add the next thing. I'm going to start looking at my food and I'm going to pick a few things that
35:21are healthier in each day. That's all I'm going to do. So I just didn't do anything. I just try and
35:24eat a few fruit and stuff like that. Then I was like, okay, I'm kind of enjoying walking, eating a bit
35:28better. I fancy, just enjoy going to do weights. I'm going to go to the gym. After I finish work,
35:33I'm just going to walk in there and do 20 minutes. And once I did it in a couple of months,
35:36that happens. And you see what happens. It's like a snowball effect. But if you try and start
35:41with everything, you'll achieve nothing. It's impossible. It's all or nothing. That's right.
35:46Monday, I'm going to be perfectly healthy. The mind doesn't work like that. Some people can.
35:50Some people can do it. It's very difficult to sustain true habits in that way. You have to
35:55master a habit or not master, but get a long way down the road of forming the habit before you add the
36:00next thing. Absolutely. Anna, I can see you nodding along. I'm wondering if you've got any
36:05tips that you could add to that. She has many, millions. I can tell you from these things with
36:11you. You have many tips. I love that because it's just, I think gentleness. We need to add more
36:15humanness and gentleness into the things that we're trying to do. Like a bit more just acknowledgement
36:19of the fact it's hard to make change and we need to go gently on ourselves. Two other things that have
36:24been that I'm loving doing at the moment that kind of really tap into kind of welcome a bit more
36:28happiness into my life. One is just saying, wow, just stopping. And like, whether I'm just in my
36:34house, in my living room, looking at like my lovely, snuggly sofa or my kids, I just stop and I'm like,
36:40wow. And it just accesses this awe and wonder. And I think when we're living so fast and we're running
36:46at a hundred miles an hour and there are these birds that are singing, you know, and we don't even
36:50hear them and there are sunsets and we just don't even look. And I just think sometimes just this
36:55little prompt just to stop every now and again and just look at wherever I am and just go, wow.
36:59And yeah, things are messy and yeah, it's chaotic and it's, there are hard things, but there's always
37:04something that you can just access, even if it's looking at the stars. And then the other thing is
37:08changing. I've got to, to, I get to, you know, I get to work out. I get to, and it started when I was
37:14doing a load of washing and it's just so relentless and I'm like really grumpy and everyone was just so
37:19much, so much washing. And I sat there at the washing machine, like really grumpy. And I thought,
37:23you know what? I get to do the washing. I get to wash these little clothes, these kids that I once
37:28dreamed of having, you know, in this house that I feel safe in with a washing machine that we are
37:33so privileged to have to afford the electricity to run. And it just suddenly like really switched
37:38this and people are like, Anna, that doesn't work on taking the bins out. So I tried it and it really
37:44does. Like I was dragging the bins out and I'm like, I get to do this. Like my arms, I'm strong. Like
37:48this is heavy, but I'm, I'm strong. Like we have a refuse system in our country. It's not perfect,
37:53but what a privilege if you've ever been to a third world country. And like suddenly I was,
37:58it just changes things. It just welcomes the and, you know, this is boring and it's mundane or it's
38:03overwhelming. And it's also a reason to be, to, you can tap into joy amidst it all as well. So.
38:11I find that tip really works. Yeah. Especially when I, sometimes I'm like, if I did talk last night
38:16and before I do, I was like, Oh my God, why did I get myself these situations? Um, you know,
38:19cause it's, it's not, you know, you get you stressful and whatever. And I said, I get to
38:22stand here and do this and you're like, okay, fine. It does really work. And you know, not to
38:27use it to, you, you, you make a very good point. You've got to be careful not to use these things
38:30to shame yourself. But you know, it's when you're, when you're sick and you're ill and you're in a
38:34hospital bed, you know, is when you're like, Oh my God, I'm so grateful for being well.
38:38Things get tough. And when things hang in the balance and when those curve balls come along,
38:42it's the mundane you want. It's the boring. It's the like, just get me back in my kitchen,
38:47cooking dinner, you know, just get me back at the desk at work. And normal is, is such a,
38:53is such a privilege, right? And even being bored is the absence of trauma or grief in that moment.
38:59So yeah, I think it's great to pursue more happiness and joy, but also to find ways to tap
39:04into what is already good and joyful in your life amidst it all. Like that's, that's a real gift.
39:11Those are incredible tips for me both. And I, you know, I wish we could spend the whole record
39:15just talking about all of the different ways that we can feel happier. Um, but I do want to ask you
39:19both for one more tip. I always end the podcast by asking my guests what their one wellness non
39:24negotiable would be. I wonder if we can start with you, Anna, what would yours be?
39:27Rest. And as someone who used to launch off the sofa when someone walked in, because I was almost
39:34so ashamed to be seeing sat down. Like that's where my relationship with rest is. I now see
39:39rest. If I want to be calm and I want to be loving to people in my life, I need to rest. I need to
39:46resource myself. Otherwise I'm living in that fight or flight state. I'm snappy. I'm irritable. I can't
39:50give calm when I don't have it. So I think I have to buy calm with rest. So I rest loudly. I rest
39:57unapologetically. I try and think of ways to build it into life because rest is how we love.
40:04It's how we feel safe in ourselves and it's how we are able to treat others in a way that
40:09aligns with how we want to. So rest.
40:11It's a great tip. Because often we're trying to, well-being is often always about doing
40:16rather than actually the most powerful things you can do is rest. And most people do not have
40:20enough rest.
40:21Being. Human beings.
40:22Yeah.
40:23What would your one wellness non-negotiable be?
40:25I think it'd have to be going for a walk outside with my dog in the park. I think it's
40:28probably the thing. I'd say it saved my life and I think it's probably changed my life.
40:32And I'm so grateful for like nature. I think, I know it might sound uncool and whatever,
40:38but I don't care. I think being outside in the park is, in nature is, there's something
40:43that we are human beings. We're meant to be part of this world. And I think so much of
40:46the problems we face is because we've been taken away from the world. We're not supposed
40:49to be in a box all the time. We're not supposed to be on our phones all the time. We're supposed
40:52to be outside in the trees and in the field. That's where we're supposed to be.
40:56I don't think it's labour at all. You're in good company here because I think that is
41:00an excellent tip.
41:00We enjoyed a stomp, didn't we?
41:01Yeah. Love it. Hugged a few trees in my time as well. Recommend.
41:05I have as well, actually. Do you know what? Hugging a tree is like, you've got, it might
41:08feel stupid and embarrassing doing it, right?
41:10It's so solid.
41:11Go and hug a tree next time. Like if you're in New Forest or something like that, hug.
41:14You've got producers laughing here. Go and hug a tree.
41:16Have you hugged a tree before?
41:16Go and find one.
41:17Hug some tree.
41:18So good.
41:18You just do it and you're actually, it's the strangest thing. And I know it's ridiculous, but I don't
41:23know, I can't explain it, but it feels unbelievable, yeah.
41:26It's just like, it's grounding, isn't it?
41:28Everything else has happened to that end.
41:29Yeah.
41:30Everyone's going, you know, this is going to be like a clip. They'll clip this down now
41:32and be like, these guys are crazy.
41:33This is perfect.
41:34Tree huggers unite.
41:34It's fine. Tree huggers unite.
41:36This is what this podcast is all about. So thank you both for sharing incredible tips.
41:41I'm so grateful to you both.
41:42Thank you so much for having us.
41:43Thanks for having me, yeah.
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