00:00You've had many years working across French political roles in both China and in France.
00:07I wonder what you think success looks like when it comes to Emmanuel Macron's visit to China.
00:12What would a successful visit look like?
00:16Well, first of all, this kind of visit is always useful.
00:19I would even say, to make a joke, it's less useless than people think.
00:25It's useful because, first of all, leaderships have to talk.
00:29There are so many issues they can solve just by talking.
00:34Also, it's a way to speed up some partnerships between French companies and Chinese companies.
00:42And this is very important.
00:43You know, China has been a long-term partner of France and European companies, even though it has become a competitor as well.
00:52China is a partner, but also a competitor, so we should not be naive.
00:56Chinese people are not naive at all.
00:57They are very business-oriented, pragmatic, and we should be business-oriented and pragmatic.
01:02So we should work to rebalance the trade, rebalance also investments, because we have been investing, European have been investing a lot of money in China, but China has not been investing a lot.
01:17So we should be open to Chinese investment in Europe, provided it's a win-win game, not a zero-sum game.
01:26That means you have to make it interesting for both parts.
01:32Yes, and Bruno, is there appetite for French businesses to invest more in China?
01:38I mean, geopolitical risks around that kind of investment and exposure, as we increasingly find ourselves in a world made up of a number of spheres of influence, not just one.
01:48Is that something that still French businesses have appetite for?
01:52And on the other side, Chinese businesses investing in Europe, there's been some hesitancy to accept that kind of investment.
01:58Yes, absolutely.
02:00Yes, absolutely.
02:01There is a huge appetite for French but also European investment in China.
02:06At Cate, we've been supporting European small and medium companies to invest in China and to make money in China for nearly 20 years.
02:17And it's very successful. We made a lot of money for our investors by supporting companies to develop, to grow in China.
02:26So I think the opportunities are huge, are massive. Nevertheless, you have to have a strong partner locally.
02:34You have to be careful. The market is always difficult in China.
02:38The competition is very fierce in China and is going very fast.
02:43You know, China is about speed, speed to market and about scale.
02:48So if you don't know that, you make a mistake. So you have to be trained to go to China.
02:53This is what we try to do to support companies to grow in China.
02:57And you can make a lot of money, but also sometimes you lose.
03:01It's a very competitive game, but I'm sure there are lots of perspective.
03:06In the other way around about Chinese investment in Europe, I think we support, we should support Chinese investment in Europe, but without being naive.
03:17For example, I think the idea of having a local European content regulation is something important.
03:25We want Chinese investments in Europe, but we don't want we don't want screwdriver factories.
03:31We want investment that bring value added jobs, technology transfers and so on.
03:37This is something which is very important. And I know Chinese people have been around China for more than 15 years.
03:44They are very pragmatic and they understand that. Yep. Bruno, there is a fear in Europe that the Chinese are dumping products into our markets.
03:52Is that true? Is that something that Europe should push back on? And how does that change the relationship?
03:59What is true? And I can tell you by seeing a lot of Chinese entrepreneurs on the day to day basis, is that on in many verticals, there is a massive public support, massive.
04:14This public support is not allowed in the EU. It's called state aid and it's forbidden.
04:21So there is an imbalance between the level of state support between Europe and between China on some strategic verticals. This is true.
04:30So I think nobody can challenge that. So this is why there is a new European instrument called FSR, you know, about making the competition as fair as possible.
04:44And it is this is something which is important. So, yes, we should we should not be naive and we should welcome investment, welcome trade.
04:53But without being naive, naive and protecting our interests as well. Chinese government has been protecting China's interests and that is absolutely fair.
05:03That's their job. We should do the same. Can Europe manage its relationship with the United States and China and still do business with both?
05:16Well, I'm not into geopolitics. I'm into business in business. But what I can see on a day to day basis is that many European companies have huge business in the U.S.
05:27and also huge business in China. That's just a fact. And Chinese and American companies still have a lot of business in China and make a lot of money.
05:38So, you know, the business is more pragmatic than politics. Yes.
05:44Yes. And business often, Bruno manages to put politics to one side. I suppose a lot of our questions this morning have come down to will that continue to be the case?
05:57You mean, can you say again, please?
06:00Yes. I mean, a lot of our questions have been asking whether what we've seen over the last 20 years, the business flows between France and China, between Europe and China have been developed, been exploited and have grown.
06:14Will that continue to be the case over the next 10 years or are we moving into a different world order?
06:18Oh, yes. Oh, yes. Oh, yes. I can bet a bottle of champagne if you want with you. I'm sure.
06:25Okay. Well, that sounds good. I mean, I like champagne. So if that's the downside.
06:32Yeah.
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