Billionaire Donations: The Tax Benefits Of Giving And Who Is Truly Generous

Forbes

In this episode of Beyond the Billions, Deputy Editor Giacomo Tognini and Forbes Executive Editor Luisa Kroll, conduct a deep dive into the world of billionaire philanthropy. They investigate the motivations and lives of the planet's wealthiest individuals, scrutinizing their massive, often image-driven, donations—from the "pinky handshake" to nine-figure gifts. The discussion dissects whether these contributions are truly genuine charity or calculated maneuvers for tax advantage. As wealth continues to compound faster than figures like Buffett and Gates can donate, the episode highlights revolutionary philanthropists such as MacKenzie Scott, whose "no strings attached" giving is setting a new standard for putting billions to work.  00:00 This Week’s Billionaires Recap 01:52 Billionaire Encounters And Public Perception  06:36 Why $100M is the New Small Donation 08:27 Why Rising Net Worths May Not Equal Rising Donations 11:49 Elon Musk And His Minimal Giving 14:03 America’s Most Effective Philanthropist Is Not Who You Think 18:13 Effective Giving: Finding the Biggest Bang for the Billion   26:51 Billionaires vs. The Government: Who Fixes the World?  To read more about America's most generous philanthropists in 2025: https://www.forbes.com/sites/forbeswealthteam/2025/02/03/americas-most-generous-philanthropists-2025/ To read more about how America’s richest billionaires are not donating much more despite growing wealthier: https://www.forbes.com/sites/ellamalmgren/2025/09/09/americas-richest-billionaires-keep-getting-richer-theyre-not-donating-much-more/ To read more about Cari Tuna and Dustin Moskovitz's philanthropy: https://www.forbes.com/sites/phoebeliu/2025/11/07/cari-tuna-billionaire-open-philanthropy-facebook/ To read more about Sergey Brin's $2 billion quest to tackle Parkinson's, bipolar disorder and autism: https://www.forbes.com/sites/phoebeliu/2025/02/06/sergey-brins-2-billion-quest-to-tackle-parkinsons-bipolar-disorder-and-now-autism/ To read more about Sergey Brin’s $700 million gift of Alphabet stock: https://www.forbes.com/sites/phoebeliu/2025/05/27/where-google-cofounder-sergey-brin-is-putting-his-new-700-million-charitable-gift/ To read more about the biggest billionaire donors to HBCUs: https://www.forbes.com/sites/asia-alexander/2025/11/05/the-biggest-billionaire-donors-to-hbcus/ To read more about MacKenzie Scott's donations to HBCUs: https://www.forbes.com/sites/michaeltnietzel/2025/11/03/mackenzie-scotts-hbcu-donations-surge-with-172-million-in-new-gifts/ To read more about Vivek Ramaswamy’s fortune: https://www.forbes.com/sites/kylemullins/2025/11/20/vivek-ramaswamys-net-worth-has-nearly-doubled-while-hes-running-for-ohio-governor/ To read more about Larry Page’s soaring net worth: https://www.forbes.com/sites/martinacastellanos/2025/11/19/google-cofounder-larry-page-overtakes-bezos-for-worlds-third-richest-after-gemini-3-ai-model-announcement/ To read more about Walter Wang’s family feud: https://www.forbes.com/sites/luisak

Transcript

00:00This week in Billionaires, former presidential candidate Vivek Ramaswamy has seen his net worth

00:05surge by about 80% to an estimated $1.8 billion in just nine months. Ramaswamy, who launched a

00:12bid for Ohio Governor in February, has benefited from the continued strength of Roivant Sciences,

00:18the pharmaceutical company he founded in 2014 to develop shelf drugs. The company has notched

00:22major successes in recent years, including a $7.1 billion spinoff sale in October 2023

00:28and positive drug trial results in September. For his gubernatorial bid, he is now prioritizing

00:35external fundraising, a shift from the heavy personal loans that financed his presidential

00:40campaign. Google co-founder Larry Page recently overtook Jeff Bezos in the billionaire rankings

00:45after his fortune surged dramatically, fueled by Google Parent Alphabet's strong market performance.

00:51The firm's stock spike followed robust third-quarter earnings and the debut of the Gemini 3 AI model,

00:57adding approximately $7.6 billion to Page's net worth in a single day. This placed him third on

01:05Forbes' real-time billionaires list, with co-founder Sergey Brin also seeing significant gains.

01:11American billionaire Walter Wang is suing his half-siblings and cousins in the U.S.,

01:16alleging mismanagement of billions of dollars in family trust assets intended for charity,

01:20family unity, and U.S. business support. This feud follows the 2008 death of his father,

01:27Taiwanese petrochemical tycoon Y.C. Wang, without a will, sparking prolonged legal battles over his

01:34$6.8 billion estate. The lawsuit claims charitable giving has dramatically slowed since 2008,

01:41contrasting with high legal fees. Walter, a plastic pipe manufacturing mogul, states his goal is enforcing

01:48his father's charitable intent, not personal gain. Welcome to Beyond the Billions. I'm Giacomo

01:53Tonini, and joining me today is executive editor Louisa Kroll. Louisa, I've worked with you for my

02:00entire career at Forbes, and I think you probably know the most about billionaires than probably anyone

02:04else in the world. So, you know, what has been your most interesting or memorable experience with a

02:11billionaire? Okay, first of all, there are many experiences, and I always joke with the team

02:19that in my next life, I'm going to write a book about billionaires and have a chapter about, you know,

02:26each quirky kind of strange thing they do. So, one example was when we went and met the LaCroix

02:35billionaire. I've heard the story. Yes, yeah, yeah. So, he insisted that I go, even though there was

02:41another more junior editor there and the reporter, and we were trying to convince him to let us do a

02:48story on it. And so, we show up, and he literally shakes our pinkies, okay? And we're all a little bit

02:56taken off guard, like, what the heck? And then we go in, and we spend probably like an hour with him,

03:01and he's like showing us all these different ways that he checks the scents for the flavors. It was

03:06really crazy. But then he starts talking about personal things he's read about me. He clearly

03:12had Googled me. He knew everything about what my husband did. And then at the end of the meeting,

03:19he hugged me, but gave pinky handshakes to the other people. We were all so weirded out

03:28that it's become quite famous, you know, amongst those of us at Forbes, and we call it the

03:34pinky handshake chapter. Yeah, thankfully, we haven't started doing that. Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

03:41Well, I guess to start off, what do you think is the biggest misconception people have about

03:45billionaires, right? There's such, first of all, there's so many of them. There's many that are

03:50really high profile, but what do you think people don't really understand or know about them?

03:54Well, I mean, I know we're going to be talking about philanthropy today, but let me just veer for

04:00a second. I think the one thing that may or may not be surprising, but just how much they care what

04:06other people think of them, like it really matters to them. You know, whether it's the actual number,

04:13whether it's, you know, how you perceive them, you know, whether you're being treated well. I mean,

04:18there's so many anecdotes. It's very rare to have a billionaire not care at all. And they really,

04:25you know, go to such great lengths. And I'm always amazed that they do, you know, because to me,

04:31I'm like, if I had a billion dollars, I don't think I'd care what anybody thought. But that's

04:36definitely not the case. When they complain about one word in a sentence. Oh, my gosh, of course.

04:41Yeah. You know, the other thing that was surprising to me, I mean, now it's not so surprising,

04:47but how much they care about their photos, which actually, I kind of, I kind of get that too. You

04:52know, it's like, you know, you, you see that all the time. And the number of people that have

04:56new photos sent to us and asked us to replace it. And I have to say for that, we're usually like,

05:02okay, great. You want that photo instead? Go ahead. But yeah, we fight with them all the time

05:08about a sentence or a word. So yeah, but I keep thinking, you know, we should charge billionaires

05:15like a separate fee. And we'd make a lot of money because a lot of them make sure they read their,

05:22you know, their profiles. So but turning it back to philanthropy. I don't think I actually was

05:30thinking about this. I'm not sure there really are misconceptions only because I think that that

05:35what people think is that, you know, maybe billionaires aren't quite as philanthropic as

05:40they need to be. And I think that that is probably true. I mean, I think that the great thing is,

05:45is that there are exceptions to every rule. And there are certain people that are so enormously

05:50generous, you know, that have really changed conversations over the decades that have really

05:58kind of influenced, you know, not only giving, but you know, how we give and what we give,

06:04and just the conversations. But they're a rare group. And you know, most of these people really

06:12are often giving for tax reasons, or they're giving to their alma mater because they want a building

06:19named after them. And so it's not the kind of giving where you really think they're spending their

06:27money in, in super positive ways. But I think that, yeah, and you know, when you talk about the

06:34publicity, right, when, you know, when you and I and others on our team see a big donation, right, this

06:41person, whether we know they're a billionaire or not, has given, let's say $100 million donation, what are

06:47some of the questions you asked, right, because you're just talking about, right, people do for the publicity,

06:51right, or being named. But what are the, when you see that, what are the next steps you take to

06:56report that out? Okay, well, first of all, I have to say, you know, just like a billion isn't what it

07:01used to be. A hundred million of giving isn't what it used to be. Inflation hits. Inflation hits. You

07:07know, I mean, now it's a little bit more common. You're like, oh, another hundred million donation,

07:11like it really has to be $500 billion for me to get really excited. But no, in all seriousness,

07:17you ask, have they actually given it? Right. Or have, or is it a pledge? Like, often, it'll kind

07:23of read as though they've given it. But actually, they've promised to give it over a period of time.

07:29So did, are they going to give it within a year? Are they going to give it over five years?

07:33And are they giving shares? Are they giving it directly to the organization? Are they putting it

07:39into their foundation? You know, all of these questions help us understand why they're doing it. And also,

07:46what's happening with that money? Like, is it actually going to the people that it needs to

07:51help? Or is it some sort of, you know, you know, tax maneuver to, you know, help, you know, save them

07:59some money in the end? Because again, even though they've got so much money, billionaires really like

08:04to make sure that they're saving money as well. Yeah, there's great tax benefits for those private

08:09foundations, right? Yes. So building on that, right, we have this, you know, we track billionaire

08:13philanthropy score, philanthropy throughout the year. We have these philanthropy scores sort of

08:17looking at how much they've given and how much they've given us a percentage of their net worth.

08:22And we also have a list that we put out at the beginning of each year, the top givers list.

08:26When you look at the scale of billionaire philanthropy now, and you compare it to kind of the heyday of

08:32the turn of the, you know, 19th and 20th centuries, and you had Carnegie and all these other big names,

08:38how do you think about the scale we're seeing now, and that you've covered for many years versus what

08:45the legacy from back then? Right. I think it's an interesting thing to think about. I feel like

08:52every generation has its Rockefeller or its Carnegie. Nowadays, I would say it's Buffett, it's Soros,

09:00it's Mackenzie Scott, and we'll talk about all these people, Gates. But I think what is different

09:08now is, first of all, the sheer size of the numbers. But also, people are getting rich at such

09:16an incredible speed that they can never seem to give away enough. Like, I think J.D. Rockefeller

09:22had given away 90% of his fortune. Nobody's close to that. And we'll talk more about who the,

09:30the biggest percentage giver is. But I do think that sheer numbers, it's just so much bigger,

09:39but in a way, it's harder to give a ton away. I think that I read somewhere that the, actually,

09:47on the Rockefeller site, they've given a total of 26 billion, which is less than, you know,

09:53Gates or Buffett has given at this point. You're not even in the top 10 richest in the world

09:57at 26 billion, right? Probably even more than that, right? Exactly.

10:02So if we're looking at the biggest gainers, sorry, biggest givers as a percentage of their

10:06net worth, and the smallest, who is that right now? Well, as a percentage of their net worth,

10:13it is George Soros, who's, you know, a controversial figure in Trump's mind, but really has been a

10:21very generous donor for, for many, many decades. And he's given away 76% of his fortune. I think the

10:30next person is Lynn Schusterman. She's a oil heir and very, very generous as well. And she's in the

10:3840 percentile. The world's biggest donor is Warren Buffett. In dollar terms? In dollar terms. And he's

10:48given away 65 billion, which is crazy, especially since he, he actually got into philanthropy much

10:55later. It was only around 2006. So I think he was 76 at the time when he started to donate. And

11:03initially he was really donating through Bill and Melinda Gates's foundation. But what is interesting

11:11is that at one point, I think it was like 10 years ago, um, he was worth 60 billion. The problem is,

11:19so he would have given away his whole fortune. The problem is, is that Berkshire Hathaway stock keeps

11:24going up so much that he's even giving away that much money. He's still worth more than 140 billion.

11:30So it, there is definitely something to be said for it, um, being hard for some of these people to,

11:37you know, give quickly enough. The wealth compounds too quickly for them. Exactly. Which is another

11:43reason why, why not be more generous? But a lot of people have not gotten that message. Well,

11:48speaking of a well-known billionaire whose wealth has compounded very quickly and has not been that

11:54generous. Yeah. Uh, I believe Elon, right? The richest, Elon Musk, richest person in the world.

11:59Yep. Has not been among the most generous, right? No, he's in our, um, booby price category of people

12:05that have given less than 1% of their wealth. Um, Elon has given away, uh, less than a billion.

12:12The last time we looked at the filings, I think, you know, because there's a, like a year lag. Right.

12:17With the 990 filings. Yeah. The 990s are, you know, how they are, how people, you know, file their

12:23charitable giving and how you can track it. And, um, you know, we, the, the, the, we looked at his 2023

12:31and it was like 600 million plus. Um, he has made noise about giving over 9 billion away,

12:39but he's pretty much moved it into a, um, DAF, which means that he hasn't given it to any charity.

12:48He's just set it aside. Donor advised funds, right? Yes. Donor advised funds, which again has a tax

12:54benefit. So why someone with as much money as he has really has to worry about that? I don't know,

13:01but that money has not been, you know, given out or, you know, doled out, you know, Forbes,

13:06um, which of course is also very different than, you know, Rockefeller's days. Um, but we only track

13:12the money that actually goes out the door. Like if you just put it into a foundation, we're not even

13:17counting that. Well, because foundations only need to, I think, contribute 5% of their assets,

13:21that's right. I think that's right. But anyway, they do not need to give a, uh, significant

13:26portion away and they, so they can just put it there and, uh, you know, sit it out even more

13:32obscure, right? They don't have to even more obscure. You can't even track those. It's, it's very

13:36difficult and, uh, it just makes, um, it even more opaque. And I think that's, you know, another reason

13:42why, you know, the general public maybe, you know, doesn't trust the, uh, motives of some of these

13:48quote unquote philanthropists. And when you look at the different strategies, right, of

13:52these people, they can vary a lot, right? From, you know, Warren Buffett first donating

13:57through the Melinda Gates Foundation to then donating separately. Who do you think is the

14:03most effective philanthropist right now in the U.S.? So Mackenzie Scott, one of the first

14:08things she did obviously was to drop the, uh, Bezos last name. And, um, she very quietly

14:16started incredibly systematically giving hundreds of millions of dollars away, um, to hundreds

14:25of non-profits. And the, the fantastic thing is that it was no strings attached, uh, philanthropy.

14:33Um, often these non-profits didn't even know that they were getting the money. They didn't

14:38have to send in these very complicated nominations. You know, they don't have to count for every

14:44single dollar that they spend. You know, my husband was in non-profit for years and the

14:49amount of paperwork you have to send back to your donors. I mean, it takes up so much

14:54of your time. And just to file for the grants in the first place, the applications are super

14:57essential. Exactly. So, it's so competitive. It's so difficult. And she really, uh, got the people

15:03that were working with her to find just really great non-profit leaders and, and gave it to them.

15:08Um, but she is the third biggest, uh, giver by percentage, even though she only started in 2019

15:15and she's among the, uh, top biggest givers in the world.

15:20And that's just a completely different method of giving, right? She, rather than having these

15:26foundations that are, I remember reading the stories we put out in the, over the last few

15:30years about her, people would just get a phone call, right? These foundations sometimes. And she's

15:35also been a major donor to HBCUs, right? Historically Black universities. Yes. How important has that

15:42been as a sort of, as a group of foundations and, well, in this case, sort of universities

15:49that she's been? Yeah. I mean, I think, and you could correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure

15:54she does not give to foundations. She gives directly to the non-profits and to the HBCUs and stuff. And I

16:00will say that, like, there are so, so many examples of where she just gave to a non-profit and raised that

16:09non-profit's profile immediately. And I think that, um, the leadership she's taking in HBCUs is very

16:17similar. I think that she's given, uh, roughly 300 million just this year to HBCUs. She gave

16:24Howard University its biggest single gift ever. Um, it was 80 million, uh, in the, you know, in the

16:31past, you know, few weeks, I think. And, um, I think that it, first of all, kind of shows different

16:39ways that you can just automatically give. It kind of, I hope, inspires other people, whether it was

16:45coincidental or not. I'm not quite sure of the timing, but Arthur Plank, who's the, uh, co-founder

16:51of Home Depot. He also gave a $50 million gift to Atlanta HBCUs right around this same time. Um,

16:58again, I think that one knock, um, is that so many of these billionaires have given to the top

17:07Ivy League or elite schools, whether it's-

17:11Often they're alma maters.

17:11Exactly. Often they're alma maters, whether it's Mike Bloomberg giving, you know, hundreds of millions

17:17to Johns Hopkins or Ken Griffin giving to Harvard. And, uh, when she does these things,

17:24the world sits up and listens. And I think it really does have a dramatic impact. Um, we just

17:31did a story recently that looked at all of the donors, um, to HBCUs. I mean, of course, I think

17:37the amount we added up was about a billion, which is better than it had been. You know, some of that

17:43giving is really key over the past couple of years. But for instance, Phil Knight gave over

17:48two billion, um, to, uh, I think it was University of Oregon, right? Anyway, you know, one of the ones

17:55out West. And, um, that was more than all gifts that have ever gone to HBCUs. Um, so there's still

18:04a huge opportunity to catch up in certain areas, but I think that, uh, she has quietly had quite an

18:11impact. Well, you were talking about Mackenzie Scott setting an example for other philanthropists.

18:17You, you know, recently, one of our fantastic colleagues, Phoebe Liu, wrote a story about

18:21Carrie Tuna, another another philanthropist. Right. Who's married to Dustin Moskovitz. Yeah.

18:27Famous for meetings from Facebook and then Asana. What did you think was sort of most interesting

18:32about her philanthropy and how she sort of setting an example for others as well? Well, first of all,

18:37I was just so, uh, proud of Phoebe for actually getting Carrie to sit down and talk with her

18:42because she's, uh, one of those people that has, um, you know, not quite like, uh, Mackenzie who doesn't

18:50even have any photographs out there. Um, but, you know, very much keeps, you know, low profile, you know,

18:56doesn't, doesn't talk to a lot of press. And, uh, you know, she was a Wall Street Journal reporter,

19:01before she, um, she was introduced to Dustin by Jessica Lesson, who is the, uh, founder of the

19:08information. And so as journalists, we were always really kind of curious about her role and what

19:14she's been doing. Cause she had, you know, quit a long time ago to run their, um, philanthropy.

19:19So it's really fascinating. Basically, uh, she talked a lot about, you know, effective altruism,

19:26where you're looking to make the biggest impact on the biggest, most catastrophic problems.

19:34And, you know, she uses the example where she went out that first year and talked to

19:39over a hundred people about, you know, where should she go to, what should she do? And almost everybody

19:44said, find your passion, find out what you're passionate about and give to that. And she ignored

19:49all of them, which I love, you know, she stood by her, by her own instincts and basically decided

19:56that what was more important was to find out where she could do the most good. What were the

20:02challenges that really needed their attention? And of course, you know, one of the things, um,

20:07that she talked about was artificial intelligence, you know, long before this, you know, huge circular,

20:14you know, investment spiral where everybody, everybody's putting so much money in. I mean,

20:19the money's just insane, you know, but, um, almost a decade ago, they started giving to nonprofits. I

20:25mean, interestingly, they had given, uh, money to Anthropic when it was a nonprofit that actually,

20:32Yeah, but in Anthropic, they basically, you know, gave them money and it turned into a $500

20:39million investment that they then moved into their foundation. Um, but their point was that,

20:45um, it is such an explosive area where everybody's going to be looking to make money that you need,

20:52um, nonprofits, you need donors to be willing to, um, invest to make sure that it's being handled in

21:00the appropriate way. And I have to say that I actually felt like kind of encouraged to be hearing

21:06someone like that with that amount of money at their, you know, you know, that they'd be able

21:12to spend, you know, thinking about, you know, huge problems like that. Obviously they also do a lot in,

21:17you know, healthcare, et cetera. I think another interesting part of, of that article was how

21:24looking at the greatest impact you can have on the greatest number of people, right. And how

21:28I think there's a quote about, you can have a, a mediocre, um, malaria nonprofit in certain parts

21:34of Africa would do, you know, have a greater impact than, you know, really successful nonprofit

21:41targeting a rare disease in the U S right. Completely, completely. And she's just so, uh,

21:46mathematically driven and so outcome driven, um, that again, it's just a really great way to be

21:52thinking about philanthropy. The other thing that, um, I've been starting to hear a lot about is,

21:59you know, kind of sunset clauses and, you know, this desire to spend down your money,

22:04you know, uh, we were talking about Rockefeller in the beginning. And one of the things he did was

22:07he set up these, you know, uh, big foundations that his kids would take over and keep running.

22:13And the Rockefeller foundation still exists and it's still involved in a lot. Um, but you're

22:17starting to hear people say, you know, we want to spend it down in a certain period of time and,

22:23you know, Gates, uh, just to, to almost everybody's surprise, just announced that,

22:28you know, he is looking to, uh, close down his foundation by 2045. Um, and this idea that

22:37you have to spend more quickly, you have to think about ways that you can put this money

22:42to work. Um, I think is also a really interesting, um, thing that you're going to hear more about,

22:49you know, as, uh, you know, people look to kind of help have a, uh, quicker and bigger impact.

22:55Mm-hmm. And I think the, the only person that comes to mind that actually did spend

23:00out all of their money was, uh, Chuck Feeney. Yep. Yep. Who was on the Forbes Relay News list,

23:04but then overtime fell off, right? Yep. Because he was, had a very effective foundation.

23:09Yes, he did. Yeah. He, he set out to give it all away by the time he died. And, and he did that. And

23:16he made sure to be very aggressive. And I think, you know, I'm sure that he, um, like Mackenzie had a

23:22huge impact on some of these people. You know, we gave him the lifetime, you know, uh, philanthropy

23:28award. Um, it was a number of years ago now. Um, and again, that was an event that, um, Bill Gates

23:35and, uh, Warren Buffett were very involved in, you know, initially. I mean, we haven't really talked

23:40about, you know, uh, the giving pledge, which was something that they set up, um, to really inspire

23:46others to start giving a lot. Now, I don't personally think that we've seen necessarily

23:52that coming, you know, to fruition. They were supposed to promise to give away, you know,

23:57at least half of their fortune while they were alive or dead. And, you know, some people have

24:02done that, but I would argue most of the people that have done it would have done it anyway.

24:06And some have died without doing it. And some have died without doing it.

24:09So, um, but any idea that tries to motivate, um, and inspire, I think is a good idea. And

24:17sometimes it works out better than others. There's also been, I think, a rise in cause

24:22driven giving, right? So going back to the, what you mentioned earlier with Carrie Tuna and

24:27passions, right? The reason all those experts told her that is because it's something that happens a lot,

24:31right? You know, billionaires who are really passionate about democracy initiatives or,

24:35you know, particular disease or healthcare. How do you think that actually works in practice? And

24:40is that, do you think, is that an effective strategy? I mean, I'm kind of torn because it

24:47actually can be a very effective strategy. Um, and you know, who can blame them? I mean,

24:53to me, the best example that I always think of is Sergey Brin. You know, he found out that he carried

24:59the gene for Parkinson's his ex-wife, you know, was the founder of 23andMe. They were very into,

25:06you know, kind of, you know, uh, tracking your genes, seeing what you have. And when he found that

25:11out, you know, he started to get very involved in, um, both research and, you know, donations. I believe

25:20he's the biggest individual, uh, donor to the Michael J. Fox, um, foundation. And, um, he has,

25:29I don't want to say singularly because none of it is singularly, but he has helped change the

25:35course. He's funded a lot of really important research in this area. And, you know, you see

25:40people start to do things like that. Is he in a race against time? Does he have a personal motivation?

25:48Of course he does. Um, and I think that's only natural. You know, I, I did a story many, many years

25:53ago on, uh, The Blacks. Leon and, and, uh, his wife, um, started giving a lot to melanoma after she,

26:02uh, almost died from melanoma because it was misdiagnosed. I mean, again, I think that,

26:07you know, wanting to help whether it's, you know, your child has bipolar and you want to start donating.

26:13I mean, I think that's only natural. And I think that, um, when you do have somebody

26:20with the fortune that Sergey Brin does, it really does bring very positive,

26:25you know, outcomes, you know, to a particular area. You just kind of wish that,

26:30you know, that every, that that was like a multiplying effect and all these, you know,

26:36diseases or initiatives or problems would have similar, uh, backers.

26:41I mean, to that point, right, we're talking about when you look at the, the Bill Gates,

26:48I guess, formerly Bill and Linda Gates Foundation. Yeah.

26:50Being so enormous and in, you know, donating to so many different causes. What do you think about

26:57the impact that has on the idea that, you know, in a, in a democratic country,

27:02the government should be in theory, funding research into these things or trying to solve those

27:07problems. How do you think about sort of that dichotomy where, you know, great that we have

27:12private wealthy people willing to put the money in, but the sort of lack of partnership or the lack of

27:19the government doing its part? I mean, I personally feel like, um,

27:24certainly in this day and age, you cannot rely on the government. I mean, we've seen

27:29kind of the, um, the things that have happened, you know, in this current administration that has cut

27:37aid to so many, um, African countries, for instance, and that is a place where, you know,

27:44Gates has really always stepped up and stepped in. And so, you know, it's interesting. I don't think of

27:49Gates is really kind of spread too much. I mean, he's really taken on a few, you know, causes,

27:54whether it's malaria or tuberculosis, and he spent, you know, an extraordinary amount of time and money

28:01focused on those. Um, and personally, I think that, you know, these days government has so many things

28:07that they're kind of dealing with. Um, sure, partnerships would be great. I know that, uh,

28:13Gates personally has gone and tried to talk with Trump about, you know, some of these, you know,

28:19initiatives. Um, but if you've got really smart people that can be having this impact, um, and kind of

28:27cut through government, you know, bureaucracy and do it themselves, I'd say, you know, power to them,

28:34we need more, not less. Um, one thing I did want to mention that I'd forgotten is, um, I'm just really

28:41excited by the role that women are taking, you know, um, when you look at our billionaires list,

28:47I don't have to tell you, they're not that many women, and there are very few self-made women.

28:53When you look at our, you know, like at the top givers, I think nearly half of them are women.

29:00It's disproportionate compared to it. It really is. And, and whether it's Mackenzie and what made

29:05me think of it is that Melinda Gates, you know, once she kind of split off and, you know, took some

29:11of the money because she wanted to do her own, I mean, she's really dedicated a lot to, you know,

29:16women's health care and women's issues. And she's one of the biggest funders of, you know, say, um,

29:23you know, um, uh, you know, reproductive women's reproductive issues. And I think that, um,

29:31I really think they're starting to make a tremendous impact, you know, Carrie Tuna,

29:37uh, Mackenzie Scott, uh, Melinda Gates, Lynn Schusterman. I mean, they're just, they're a lot,

29:44and I'm really, um, kind of heartened by that. And, um, they're definitely leading by example.

29:51You, you touched earlier on sort of the fact that wealth is growing so much faster.

29:57Yep.

29:57That billionaires, you know, even if they want to give away more, it's become harder.

30:02Yep.

30:02Do you think this has grown more because of that the wealth has accumulated so much? I mean,

30:09you've edited and worked on the, on the Forbes billionaires list for more than two decades at

30:14this point, you've seen this enormous growth in wealth. Do you think that's largely due to that

30:18or because billionaires aren't being generous enough?

30:21Well, I definitely don't think it's because they haven't been generous enough,

30:26but I think that, uh, you know, look, a lot of these fortunes, a lot of these biggest fortunes,

30:32particularly the ones, you know, you know, as well as me, but the, um, you know, it's interesting.

30:37They're more billionaires than ever for sure. Um, but the amount of money held by the people at the

30:45top is just astonishing. And those are the people that the amount of money that they have and the

30:53gains that they make each year is just, it's mind blowing. Um, I think that, um, it's largely driven by

31:01this crazy, um, equity markets. Um, and the fact that, you know, so many investors are gambling on

31:08it and putting money in, um, we'll see how it all ends. Not everybody has all of that in cash and I'm

31:14completely, you know, aware of that. Um, I do feel like though, in this world where they seem to be

31:21fighting to keep their, you know, tax benefits and they're fighting to be able to, you know, get

31:28their, um, you know, keep their money in dafts, et cetera. I just feel like they need to do more

31:34to step up, to be public givers, to be spending as much as they can. I mean, what are you gonna,

31:41I mean, I feel like I live a perfectly nice life on a Forbes salary. Like, what do they need all that

31:48money for? I mean, how many yachts, how many homes can you have? So I just feel like, again,

31:54going back to Mackenzie Scott, you know, you look at how some people can just be so generous.

32:01And I do feel like just in this culture where billionaires are getting bad names because they

32:07just have such a crazy amount of wealth and, and so many of them are like fighting to hold on to it,

32:13um, that they really should be stepping up in, you know, much more dramatic ways.

32:19Is it refreshing to see an example like Mackenzie Scott or similar ones?

32:24Oh yeah, of course. I mean, look, covering, uh, covering people that have achieved,

32:31you know, such success in this world can be inspirational in and of itself. But obviously,

32:38you know, not everybody does, you know, great things with their money. I think that,

32:44you know, every example where you have somebody that's really passionate and really trying,

32:50uh, I mean, obviously Mackenzie Scott, whoever gets that sit down with her, I am already jealous

32:56and it hasn't even happened. I mean, she's just an incredible woman and, you know, she's done none of

33:03it for publicity. Um, she's really done it to be helping, you know, so many individuals and,

33:09and she has. And, um, I think that within the list of 3,500, there are dozens of more of good stories,

33:17you know, of people. Um, there's one right now that I haven't written yet, so everybody stay tuned.

33:23Um, but, you know, there's a woman who got divorced and I think that, you know, percentage-wise,

33:28I think it's going to put her in the group of some of the top givers. But, you know,

33:33she's done it very quietly and without fanfare and, you know, those are some of the best stories.

33:39So. And hopefully that inspires others to do the same. Exactly. Hopefully there is a domino effect

33:45of some sort. Well, Luisa, you know, I talk to you most days of the week, but, uh, this has been

33:52really interesting and obviously a story we'll keep following, but thank you so much for coming on today.

33:56Thanks, Giacomo. Thanks for having me today. You can find the articles we talked about today in the show notes.

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