- 7 hours ago
Category
📚
LearningTranscript
00:00The energy, the faith, the devotion, which we bring...
00:05Hello and welcome to this special edition of The Culture Show.
00:09Our focus is the Kennedys, that remarkable dynasty
00:12whose political and cultural legacy lives on in America and beyond.
00:18Now, it's 50 years since John Fitzgerald Kennedy
00:21was sworn in as America's 35th president.
00:25But even now, the family have the ability to make news.
00:29As the History Channel in America, discovered to its cost
00:33when its $30 million miniseries on the Kennedys was pulled,
00:37following accusations of historical distortion,
00:41political bias and salacious muckraking.
00:45Jackie puts out with her.
00:47She must figure if it's inevitable, she might as well make it convenient.
00:51So join us as we explore the myths and realities
00:55of the place that will forever be known as Camelot.
00:59Camelot.
01:02Camelot.
01:05John F. Kennedy was the shortest-serving elected president
01:09of the post-war era, just 1,036 days in all.
01:14When he was assassinated in Dallas in November 1963,
01:18he was actually out campaigning for a second term,
01:21which, had it not been for the lone gunman,
01:24he probably would have won.
01:25But he's got high hopes.
01:29But in the so-called thousand days of his presidency,
01:32JFK, his wife Jackie, and the Kennedy administration
01:36set a style of politics that would prove unforgettable.
01:40We'll be discussing all that with a panel of experts.
01:44But first, before the drama of politics,
01:46the politics of a drama,
01:48that eight-hour, $30 million mini-series
01:51made for the History Channel in America,
01:54but not shown there,
01:55following a campaign that accused the makers
01:58of character assassination.
02:00Defenders of the series, now being shown here on BBC Two,
02:03say the Kennedy family itself leaned on the History Channel,
02:07urging them to drop the series.
02:09So now, the story behind the making
02:11and the unmaking of the Kennedys.
02:22In the long history of the world,
02:25only a few generations have been granted the role
02:30of defending freedom in its hour of maximum danger.
02:35I do not shrink from this responsibility
02:38I welcome it.
02:42That was John F. Kennedy in 1961.
02:46Here's John F. Kennedy in 2011,
02:48played by Greg Kinnear.
02:50The energy, the faith, the devotion
02:53which we bring to this endeavour
02:56will light our country and all who serve it.
02:59And the glow from that fire can truly light the world.
03:04Here's Jackie, played by Katie Holmes.
03:06Jackie, you are going to be the First Lady of the United States.
03:14I can hardly think about it.
03:17It's all so unreal.
03:20Oh, come on.
03:21Here's Bobby Kennedy, played by Barry Pepper.
03:24Well, now, this is a new era.
03:27There's a new world order, Mr. Director.
03:32I sincerely hope that you can adapt yourself to it.
03:35And here's the Kennedy patriarch, Joe Senior.
03:38I'm an American.
03:40Played by Tom Wilkinson.
03:42Now, if you boys don't remember anything else I say,
03:44remember this.
03:45It's not what you are, it's what people think you are.
03:48And with the right amount of money,
03:50you can make them think whatever you want.
03:52We're on our way, boys.
03:54This country is ours for the taking.
03:57Yes, they're all here,
03:59including, of course, the lone gunman,
04:01lurking in Episode 7 to fulfil his fateful role.
04:08Hey, Lee!
04:09We're all headed down to the knolls,
04:10see if we can get a good look at Kennedy.
04:13Why don't you save me a spot?
04:15Sure thing.
04:17And so, my fellow Americans,
04:20ask not what your country can do for you.
04:24Ask what you can do for your country.
04:31Here is a bulletin.
04:33Here is a bulletin.
04:35But the miniseries has sparked a bitter war of words
04:38between its creators and those who regard it as an attack
04:42on the legacy of the Kennedy family.
04:45I think the Kennedys hold a special and unique place
04:48in American culture because they represent hope.
04:51And that was part of what I believe
04:52they were consciously attempting to destroy.
04:56I think there are people who just want a valentine.
05:02And I think the valentines have been done.
05:05The Kennedys originated with the team
05:08behind the terrorist-torturing TV series 24,
05:12executive producer Joel Cernow,
05:14and writer Stephen Cronish.
05:17As a family, certainly as a political family,
05:20but as any family,
05:22they probably had the greatest mix of glamour,
05:25intellect, charisma, drama,
05:28flaws and gifts.
05:30It was a canvas on which you couldn't help, I think,
05:36but come up with a compelling personal story.
05:40That's a touchdown!
05:42Woo-hoo!
05:43What compelled us as storytellers
05:48was the idea of a father living out his ambition
05:52through his sons.
05:53I can't believe you did.
05:54We did it! We did it!
05:56Loosest margin in history, Dad.
05:58You think I was going to pay for a landslide?
06:00I love you boys.
06:02And then, along the way,
06:04you had the relationship between the sons.
06:06These dynamics kept changing from episode to episode
06:09as we, you know, continue to weave out the story.
06:13I think his memory's failing him, Dad.
06:15You got me as attorney general.
06:16Yeah, because that's where you're going to be.
06:18We talked about this.
06:20You said you were fine.
06:21I'm going to Boston tomorrow to look for office space.
06:22No, you're not.
06:23Jack needs somebody he can trust,
06:24and I need you to keep an eye on Jack.
06:26I'm picking my own cabinet, Dad.
06:28I believe they elected me president, not you.
06:32That's very true, son.
06:34They did.
06:38But we decided very early on
06:40that the foreground of the story
06:43was going to be the personal story,
06:44and the background was going to be the political story.
06:48So the events like Bay of Pigs
06:51and the Cuban Missile Crisis or the election
06:55all sort of supported the show.
07:00They almost became, as you will, the plot.
07:02President Eisenhower approved this training
07:05and its ultimate purpose,
07:06the elimination of Fido Castro.
07:09Well, I'm certainly for his elimination.
07:11I just question whether or not this will work.
07:13Yes, it will, Mr. President.
07:15Without direct U.S. involvement, general,
07:18our fingerprints can't be anywhere on this operation.
07:20The goal was to create
07:22the best drama we could make
07:24given what the facts are.
07:36Castro's intelligence services must have been tipped off.
07:38His men were on the beach
07:39waiting for the guerrillas with Soviet tanks.
07:41I don't understand.
07:43I ordered the invasion when I did
07:44to avoid a security breach.
07:45He had a clear view of the brigade as it approached.
07:47Clear view? It was the middle of the goddamn night.
07:49It was the conditions.
07:51What?
07:52We didn't factor in a full moon.
07:55There is a record of what was said in the cabinet room.
07:58There is a record of what was said in the Oval Office.
08:02Jack Kennedy kept a tape system.
08:04Nixon was not the first.
08:07And so what we used
08:10were those verbatim records
08:12to construct these scenes.
08:14You said that the invasion force
08:16would land without resistance.
08:17You told me that Castro
08:19and the people of Cuba would rise up.
08:21You've been wrong about everything so far.
08:23Air support.
08:23I don't know why the hell I should start leaving you right now.
08:26It's becoming an unmitigated disaster.
08:28It already is.
08:30In scenes where there is no
08:33literal record
08:35of what was said,
08:37we only used
08:39what I would call
08:40historic license.
08:44Jack, you're going to be president.
08:47And things are
08:49going to be different.
08:50Well, honey, I think that's probably true.
08:52Between us.
08:53We know enough about the attitudes of the characters
09:01to be able to create something
09:04that probably, that comes reasonably close
09:07to probably what was said.
09:10Our marriage works because
09:13I decided several years ago
09:16to accept certain things about you.
09:19and I've dealt with it.
09:22I've had my private humiliations.
09:24But I won't have them
09:26in front of the American people.
09:28You take the facts that you know.
09:32The facts that we knew, for instance,
09:34were that Jack Kennedy
09:36had a tendency to be unfaithful.
09:39I tense.
09:40Judy.
09:40And that Jack and Jackie stayed married.
09:43Those are two facts that we know.
09:45Now, knowing those two things,
09:47what conversations
09:49would likely happen
09:50to support those facts?
09:52We know that there were periods
09:53where Jackie had to get away.
09:57We know that there were periods
09:58where she suffered deep depression.
10:01We know that there were periods
10:02where she drank.
10:05That stuff is irrefutable.
10:08And so that's what we use
10:09to construct these scenes.
10:12But the road to Dee Dee Plaza
10:14has not been a smooth one.
10:16Even before the miniseries
10:18had been cast,
10:19it was engulfed in controversy.
10:22In February of 2010,
10:24a filmmaker named Robert Greenwald,
10:26who is a well-known liberal,
10:29reached out to several historians,
10:33people who knew
10:34the history of the Kennedys,
10:35in fact, some who were even
10:37close to President Kennedy
10:39and working in his administration,
10:40because Greenwald,
10:42who used to work
10:43in the TV film business,
10:45had been sent early copies
10:46of the Kennedys' scripts
10:48and was concerned about what he read.
10:50Its essential core,
10:52its essential heart,
10:53its essential DNA,
10:55says over and over again,
10:57sex and power,
10:58power and sex,
10:59sex and power.
11:00And boy,
11:00there must be easier ways
11:02to get laid
11:02than to have to become
11:03President of the United States.
11:05This was very early drafts
11:06that this filmmaker,
11:08Robert Greenwald,
11:08had received.
11:10He objected to it.
11:11He had put together
11:13a YouTube video
11:14and had people like Ted Sorensen,
11:17who was the speechwriter for JFK,
11:19as well as a collection
11:21of other historians,
11:23basically just trashing the scripts.
11:26Every single conversation
11:29with the president
11:30in the Oval Office
11:31or elsewhere,
11:33in which I,
11:35according to the script,
11:36participated,
11:37never happened.
11:38We reached out
11:39to five historians,
11:40including one or two
11:41who've been very critical
11:42of President Kennedy
11:44on a policy basis.
11:45But every single one of them
11:47responded quickly
11:48that they would participate
11:50and that they would go on camera
11:52because this was, in fact,
11:54a political hack job.
11:55If you are an historian
11:56and if you care about the truth,
11:58this is very hard stuff to read.
12:01And if it's filmed
12:02the way it's written,
12:03it will be just heartbreaking.
12:06Greenwald certainly
12:08was not just presenting the film
12:09as an act of journalism,
12:11but also as an act of advocacy,
12:13that he regarded the film
12:15as a smear
12:16on the Kennedy administration
12:18and was actually asking people
12:20to come to the website,
12:21sign an online petition
12:22or get involved otherwise
12:24to help, as he said,
12:26stop the smears.
12:27So we had very high engagement
12:29with Kennedy smears
12:30very quickly.
12:31And the numerical result
12:33was over 50,000 people
12:34and I think it was about a week
12:35signing a petition.
12:37That's a serious number of people
12:39and it helped get
12:40the History Channel's attention.
12:42We hadn't even finished
12:43writing the scripts
12:44when that had happened.
12:45We had not even begun
12:50to vet the script historically
12:52for historical, you know,
12:54fine point accuracy.
12:55We were, as I said,
12:56just getting first drafts down
12:59so we could look at it
13:00and see if the blueprint was right.
13:02The channel had actually spent
13:03several months during production
13:05having established historians
13:08review the scripts,
13:09review the finished films
13:11and determine was this
13:13as historically accurate
13:14as it could be portrayed.
13:16But there had been condensations
13:18of timelines and telescoping
13:20of events that still concerned
13:22the historians,
13:24that even though this is
13:25the kind of thing
13:26that maybe you see in a film
13:27like The King's Speech
13:29or The Social Network,
13:30if you call yourself
13:31the History Channel,
13:32can you still show
13:33this miniseries?
13:35In January of this year,
13:36the History Channel in America
13:38announced it would not be
13:40airing the series.
13:41It has been shown
13:42on the History Channel in the UK
13:43and now on the BBC.
13:46They had said something
13:47to the effect that the reason
13:49that we're cancelling this
13:50is that this level
13:52of historical fiction
13:53didn't live up to the brand
13:55of the network.
13:57That was a fiction.
13:58That press release was a fiction.
13:59That had nothing to do.
14:01Again, historical inaccuracy
14:03had zero to do
14:04with the cancellation,
14:05so their statement
14:06was not accurate.
14:10The motives behind
14:12the History Channel's decision
14:13remain unclear.
14:14It's been reported
14:15that the Kennedy family
14:16pressured the Channel's board
14:17not to show the series,
14:19apparently alarmed
14:20by Joel Cernow's reputation
14:22as an active
14:23and vocal Republican.
14:25Joel Cernow
14:26is a proud
14:27right-wing conservative
14:29and he advocates
14:32the positions
14:33that come with
14:33being a right-wing conservative.
14:35Nothing wrong with that.
14:36If this had been called
14:38Joel Cernow's view
14:41of President Kennedy,
14:42we wouldn't have said anything.
14:44The idea
14:44that a conservative
14:48can't tell the story
14:50of the Kennedys
14:52is stupid.
14:52I mean, it's like
14:53Oliver Stone,
14:55a pretty known liberal,
14:56told the story
14:57of Richard Nixon
14:57and it's one of the great
14:58political films of all time.
15:00It's narrow-minded thinking.
15:02I've said this before
15:07that if Tom Hanks
15:09and Steven Spielberg
15:10produce this miniseries
15:12frame by frame
15:13exactly as it is,
15:15it would be showing
15:16at the White House,
15:18it would be heralded
15:19by the Kennedys,
15:20and it would be, you know,
15:21trumpeted as a reverential,
15:24patriotic look
15:25at the Kennedys.
15:26Well, here to discuss
15:33some of the issues
15:34raised by the miniseries
15:35are the columnist
15:36and public policy editor
15:37at The Economist
15:38Anne McAlvoy,
15:40Professor Tony Badger,
15:41a leading historian
15:42of American post-war politics,
15:44Sarah Bradford,
15:45historian and biographer
15:46of, among many others,
15:47Jackie Kennedy,
15:48and the journalist
15:49and broadcaster
15:50John Sargent.
15:51So, reverential
15:52and patriotic,
15:53says Joel Cernow,
15:54the producer
15:55of the programme,
15:56but it's a character
15:56assassination,
15:57according to Robert
15:58Greenwell, this critic.
16:00Anne McAlvoy,
16:00you've seen the series,
16:02what do you think,
16:02is it fair or foul?
16:04Well, I've spent
16:04a very enjoyable time
16:05watching it,
16:06but at any point
16:07I thought it could have
16:08been replaced by Dallas
16:09and Bobby Ewing
16:10could have come on
16:11and we could have had
16:12Sue Ellen instead
16:13of Jackie Kennedy
16:14and it would have
16:14made no difference
16:15because one of the things
16:17about this whole production
16:18is that the politics
16:19is pushed so much
16:20into the background
16:21that what you're really getting
16:21is a family saga
16:22of power,
16:24lust, betrayal,
16:25and all the things
16:26that make it...
16:26You're selling it quite well.
16:27I know,
16:28I think they'd be
16:29quite pleased with me,
16:29don't you?
16:30But there is a problem here
16:31which is like,
16:32where is the politics
16:33and what makes
16:34the Kennedys
16:35a great political dynasty
16:36as opposed to a family
16:38who have a more
16:39than usually
16:40interesting life?
16:41And John,
16:42they could have gone in
16:43much harder,
16:44couldn't they?
16:44I mean,
16:44there was all this criticism
16:45that this is
16:46besmirching the Kennedy
16:47reputation
16:48but there's quite a lot
16:48they could have worked with
16:50if they'd wanted to,
16:51the womanising,
16:53the hidden health problems,
16:54the links to organised crime,
16:55it's there
16:55but they could have
16:56gone darker.
16:57I know,
16:57the signs are
16:58they were all ready to go,
16:59they were determined
17:00to bring up all the sort of
17:02sex and horribleness
17:03behind the scenes
17:04and then they had
17:05second thoughts
17:06and they were under
17:06enormous pressure
17:07not to do that.
17:08I thought it meant
17:09that the overall effect
17:10was uninspired
17:12and more important
17:13for younger people
17:14watching it,
17:14uninspiring.
17:16Is that totally fair
17:18though?
17:18We do see JFK grapple
17:19for example
17:19with the Cuban Missile Crisis
17:21the politics
17:21is not completely absent
17:22is it?
17:23We do see him doing so.
17:24But what is absent
17:25is the sort of idea
17:26of what a difficult
17:28period this is.
17:29You've got this
17:30enormous nuclear arsenal
17:32can't you kind of
17:33use it?
17:34Can't you unleash it?
17:35Can't you show
17:36American power?
17:37Well actually you can't
17:39and this island
17:39is only 90 miles
17:40off the coast
17:41can't we just zap them
17:42and they get to that
17:44but they don't really
17:45build up any sense
17:46of what the public mood
17:48is and this young
17:49president
17:49and the feeling
17:51of the time
17:51and the fact
17:52that he's endlessly
17:53put upon by his father
17:54and his brother
17:55as if he's just
17:56a kind of idiot
17:57is for people like me
17:59just well
17:59it's so depressing.
18:01Well that is the sort
18:01of thesis of the program
18:02in a way
18:02that Joe Kennedy
18:03is the puppet master
18:04and his boys
18:05do his bidding
18:06but Tony you've written
18:07a series of
18:08American Lives
18:10is that borne out
18:10by the history
18:11do you think?
18:11I think Joe
18:12is an extraordinarily
18:13powerful and unpleasant
18:14man.
18:15Damn it
18:15if I don't do it myself
18:17it never gets done
18:18but I don't think
18:20there's much evidence
18:21that if it hadn't
18:22been for him
18:23that Kennedy
18:24himself might not
18:25have originally
18:26run for office
18:26but once he does that
18:27once he wins
18:28Congress in 1946
18:29Kennedy is
18:30in many ways
18:31his own man
18:32and he's put
18:33obviously his father
18:34tries to influence him
18:35left, right and centre
18:36but when the Kennedys
18:38are sort of excluded
18:39from the White House
18:40nothing much changes.
18:41Sarah Bradford
18:42you've written
18:42an acclaimed biography
18:43of Jackie Kennedy
18:44and what did you think
18:45of the portrayal
18:46of her but also
18:47of the relationship
18:47between her
18:48and her husband
18:49it's central
18:50in this drama
18:50did you find it
18:51convincing?
18:53No
18:53actually
18:54and I felt
18:56very sorry
18:56for Katie Holmes
18:57the actress
18:58playing Jackie Kennedy
18:59yes because
18:59Jackie had no
19:00kind of meat
19:01to her
19:02no background
19:03to her
19:03that wasn't
19:04how she was
19:05and because
19:06she certainly
19:07portrayed as
19:08sort of suffering
19:08and particularly
19:09by her husband's
19:11infidelities
19:11and whether the
19:12programme answers
19:13it or not
19:13I mean
19:13what is the
19:15programme's
19:16answer to the
19:17question which
19:17people must always
19:18ask is why
19:19she put up with it
19:19well there were
19:21two reasons
19:21one she really
19:24did love him
19:24and two
19:25that there was
19:26a great deal
19:27of money
19:27and power
19:28involved
19:29and that's
19:30she got a kick
19:30out of that
19:31she looks good
19:32though
19:32looks good
19:33does she look
19:33the far
19:34oh yes
19:34she looks good
19:35I thought
19:35Katie Holmes
19:36had a reasonable
19:36stab at her
19:37to put in
19:38a defence here
19:39because when I
19:39had a look back
19:40to the original
19:41Jackie Kennedy
19:42I just remembered
19:43how absolutely
19:43irritating she was
19:44a simpering
19:45overbred woman
19:46I mean it may be
19:47that there were
19:48many other debts
19:49to Jackie
19:49but we also know
19:50that she did
19:50then go off
19:51and ostensibly
19:52look for security
19:53in marrying
19:54an actress
19:54but really
19:55she quite often
19:56was looking for
19:56money
19:56she quite often
19:57was looking
19:57for power
19:58you know
19:58this is a woman
19:59who marked
19:59the death
20:00of a second
20:00child
20:01by asking
20:02her husband
20:02for an expensive
20:02piece of jewellery
20:03now I'm sure
20:04she felt this
20:05very deeply
20:06but nonetheless
20:06there was no one
20:08better at acquisition
20:09than Jackie Kennedy
20:11and that did come through
20:12and the endless changes
20:13of costume
20:13the fact that we always
20:14see her being made up
20:15it's a duty
20:16but it's also
20:17a huge pleasure to her
20:18well I think
20:18well I think this is
20:18an underestimation
20:19of Jackie
20:20may I say
20:21in this film
20:22in the film
20:23she was extremely
20:24intelligent
20:25she was a very
20:26successful
20:26in later life
20:27as an editor
20:28she rarely read
20:30I mean she was
20:31a cultured woman
20:33she wasn't
20:34okay
20:35she had this
20:36extraordinary
20:37obsession
20:37about money
20:38and it's perfectly
20:39true
20:40she did
20:41but here we are
20:41that this programme
20:42has been attacked
20:42for being so harsh
20:43and critical
20:44I'm not sure
20:44that completely
20:45came through
20:45that she was
20:46this acquisitive
20:46person that you're
20:47describing
20:47in some ways
20:48the historical record
20:49might have been
20:49more damaged
20:50than the actual programme
20:51I agree with that
20:52but that's what
20:52makes it all so strange
20:54you look at these people
20:55with Jackie
20:56and the other characters
20:57do you think
20:57are they ever going
20:58to say anything memorable
20:59are they ever going
21:00to have some kind
21:01of real discussion
21:02are they ever going
21:03to discuss
21:04their real art
21:06which is the art
21:06of politics
21:07and presentation
21:07there's never any
21:09sense of that
21:10we all know
21:11the power they had
21:12of manipulation
21:12and the power
21:14they had
21:14of real
21:15real media skill
21:16that's what made
21:17them such a terrific
21:18political asset
21:19but they didn't want
21:20to make another
21:21West Wing
21:21I mean Jill Senna
21:22says that
21:23doesn't he
21:23I know you do
21:24because that's
21:25for the likes of us
21:26the West Wing
21:28is perfect
21:28but the West Wing
21:29reached a very small
21:30number of American
21:31viewers
21:31relative to what
21:33you can reach
21:34through television
21:34so that's why
21:35they went this way
21:36we could all be
21:37that they were dumb
21:39that they didn't seem
21:40to be exceptional
21:41people
21:42I didn't think
21:43they came across
21:43as dumb
21:44my criticism
21:45remains
21:46that the politics
21:47is blended
21:47so far back
21:49that the lens
21:50is distorted
21:51and that the personal
21:52just becomes
21:53all you're asked
21:53to focus on
21:54and the interesting
21:55thing is when you
21:55take politics
21:56out of a drama
21:57what you don't get
21:58is more drama
21:58what you get
21:59is actually less
22:00drama
22:00so I think
22:01that the balance
22:02was wrong
22:02and I'm critical
22:03of that
22:03perhaps the makers
22:05were worried
22:05that it would seem
22:05didactic
22:06and like a history
22:07channel documentary
22:08and you're saying
22:08it would have been
22:08more dramatic
22:09what about this
22:10though Tony
22:10the human
22:10and political
22:11balance
22:12because both
22:14are there
22:14Bobby Kennedy
22:15for example
22:15is shown
22:16as a very strong
22:16figure
22:17he faces down
22:18all the cabinet
22:18members
22:19often on his
22:19president's behalf
22:21he has this
22:21very snarling
22:22relationship
22:23with the vice
22:23president
22:24as he was
22:25then
22:25Lyndon Johnson
22:26are they getting
22:27that right?
22:28He certainly
22:28hated Johnson
22:29and the feeling
22:31was mutual
22:31well once again
22:32your tremendous
22:33grasp of the obvious
22:34is contributing
22:35nothing here
22:35on the contrary
22:36have you had
22:36and he was
22:38certainly
22:38his brother's
22:39enforcer
22:39I mean that was
22:40his role
22:41in the government
22:41and what Joe
22:43said to him
22:43about you know
22:44you should be
22:45there looking
22:45out for John
22:47is exactly
22:48what he was
22:49doing
22:49what you don't
22:51get from him
22:52very often
22:53is that sense
22:53of that passion
22:54for politics
22:56and for issues
22:57but in fact
22:58issues are not
22:59what is in
23:00this programme
23:00at all
23:00once you've
23:01decided that
23:02it's a family
23:02drama
23:03it's a family
23:03drama
23:04and it seems
23:04to me
23:04that you know
23:05it always
23:05will be
23:05presidential drama
23:07isn't it
23:07I mean we
23:08don't get
23:08much of that
23:09they are
23:09clearly not
23:10in love
23:10with the
23:11Kennedys
23:11nobody comes
23:12out of this
23:12saga
23:13oh how
23:14wonderful
23:14I think
23:15that's where
23:16it shows
23:16isn't Bobby
23:17showing very
23:18positive
23:18positive
23:19all right
23:19but you
23:20don't
23:20he's just
23:20Bobby Ewing
23:21he's so weak
23:23you seem to have
23:24been more taken
23:24with him than
23:25the rest of us
23:25I thought he
23:27came off
23:27really badly
23:28when you think
23:29here's this guy
23:30Gordon Brown
23:31says he's my
23:31hero
23:31Ed Miliband
23:32says he's my
23:33favourite politician
23:34in history
23:34and you just
23:35looked at
23:35Bobby
23:36and thought
23:36why
23:37and the idea
23:37that he could
23:38run for president
23:39from that base
23:40which the last episode
23:41is about
23:41I'm afraid
23:42really long before
23:43that episode
23:44you thought
23:44he's not going
23:45to cut it
23:46that's long before
23:47he's even in the
23:48frame to be
23:48assassinated
23:49poor man
23:50the maker's answer
23:51the maker's answer
23:51the political problem
23:52is we'll just
23:53simply opt
23:54out of this
23:55so we're not
23:57in love with
23:57the Kennedys
23:57okay why should
23:58we be
23:59that's the history
24:00we're making
24:00at the moment
24:01dramatic story
24:01so they're in
24:02love with the story
24:03because the drama
24:04is so wonderful
24:05quite understand that
24:06and that's where
24:07it works best
24:08over eight episodes
24:09you think wow
24:09there's a story
24:10there
24:11it's almost
24:11an unbeatable
24:12story
24:13of brothers
24:13assassinated
24:14and elections
24:15and race issues
24:16and taking on
24:17and the daughter
24:18lobotomised
24:19lobotomised
24:19those are the
24:21ingredients
24:21which all
24:22you could just
24:22imagine
24:22oh this is great
24:24but it just means
24:25they've left out
24:26the central part
24:27of it all
24:28which is look
24:29why were these
24:29characters moving
24:30mountains politically
24:31how did they do it
24:33and why were they
24:34so exciting
24:34and just give us
24:35a feel
24:36for their power
24:37I agree about the why
24:38I think the why
24:38isn't addressed at all
24:39about political motive
24:40I think that is a big gap
24:41we've talked a bit
24:43about Jackie Kennedy
24:43and they're using her
24:44in the posters
24:45it's basically men
24:45and Jackie Kennedy
24:46but there are all other
24:47strong women
24:48in the real life story
24:50but also in the drama
24:50there's Rose
24:51Joe Kennedy's wife
24:53the sort of matriarch
24:54and also Bobby's wife
24:55Ethel
24:56Sarah how do you think
24:56those other women
24:57are depicted
24:58well Ethel was much
25:01too pretty
25:01for starters
25:02and also
25:08she was a toughie too
25:09you know
25:10she comes across
25:11as rather kind of
25:11sweet nice little
25:13wifey poor
25:14and she's a strong
25:16she's always ready
25:16to produce another baby
25:17if there's a problem
25:18we'll have number 10
25:19and also I thought
25:21Rose
25:21she was okay at times
25:24but she was a much
25:25more powerful person
25:26than she was actually
25:27depicted in this
25:28your behaviour
25:30is an embarrassment
25:32I also thought
25:34that it wasn't
25:35made plain
25:36that she was
25:37a really bad mother
25:38she had no relationship
25:40she had no relationship
25:40really
25:41with Jack
25:42no no no
25:44the parents are the most
25:45interesting people in it
25:46I think
25:47I mean I really enjoyed
25:48those performances
25:49and I thought that
25:50weird brutality
25:51that actually does come
25:52through from the parents
25:53it's interesting
25:54that you say she had
25:55no relationship
25:55which I wasn't really
25:56aware of
25:57but when she comes to
25:58help him on the stump
25:58the one story she can
25:59remember is that
26:00she used to smack him
26:00with a ruler
26:01let's talk about
26:03some of the broader
26:03issues that this raises
26:05about dramas like this
26:07and the obligation
26:08if there is one
26:08to be faithful
26:09to the historical record
26:11because it's not as if
26:12this is the only one
26:13out there
26:13there are many many
26:14other things
26:14the King's Speech
26:15which bagged all those
26:16Oscars again based on
26:18historical events
26:19even the social network
26:20based on very recent
26:21historical events
26:22with the creation
26:24of Facebook
26:24and there's also
26:26going to be the
26:26upcoming biopic of
26:27I was going to say
26:28your old nemesis
26:29but Margaret Thatcher
26:30coming up in the
26:30Iron Lady job
26:31I mean so
26:32there's clearly a
26:33fashion of vogue
26:34for these sorts
26:35of historical dramas
26:36Tony Badger
26:37you're a professional
26:38historian
26:39a scholar
26:39Stephen Cronish
26:41we heard earlier
26:41talking about
26:42using historic
26:43license
26:44to fill in
26:45some of the gaps
26:46where they don't
26:46have transcripts
26:47or records
26:48as a historian
26:50do you think
26:50he should have
26:51that historic
26:51license revoked
26:52for what he's done
26:53here
26:53not completely
26:55but I think
26:56you have to
26:57recognise that
26:58by choosing
26:59to make it
26:59a family drama
27:00where it focuses
27:01on private
27:02relationships
27:02there is almost
27:03going to be
27:04no record
27:04the historic
27:05license is all
27:05they've got
27:06now quite a bit
27:07of it is fairly
27:07plausible
27:08I mean some of it
27:09they clearly
27:10just make up
27:10but you know
27:11on things like
27:12the womanising
27:13on things like
27:13the medication
27:14on things like
27:15the relationship
27:15with Hoover
27:16I mean that's
27:17all there
27:17and people have
27:18written about it
27:18for years
27:19the problem is
27:20putting it on
27:20something called
27:21the history channel
27:22or the attempt
27:22to put it on
27:23something called
27:23the history channel
27:24and Americans
27:25in many ways
27:26are more kind of
27:27literal than we are
27:28and if you say
27:28this is historical
27:30and the Kennedys
27:31are equivalent
27:32I think of royalty
27:33in many ways
27:33in the American
27:34psyche and imagination
27:35then you're going
27:36to have people
27:37coming and saying
27:37it's not our history
27:38what are you doing
27:39the problem is
27:40that for some people
27:42until they see it
27:42on television
27:43it's not true
27:44so the number of
27:44people now
27:45who are ready
27:45to play
27:46Zahm Bin Laden
27:47or Gaddafi
27:48you know
27:49will I be tall
27:49enough
27:49I'm afraid
27:50we know
27:51there are going
27:52to be these films
27:52going to be made
27:53and that the idea
27:54of oh it doesn't matter
27:55that's just the
27:56entertainment industry
27:57is I'm afraid naive
27:58because for lots
27:59of young people
28:00particularly
28:00they can't
28:02take this Kennedy
28:03thing in
28:04unless it's dramatised
28:05in its way
28:06the sort of obligation
28:08and the demand
28:09for this
28:09is extremely high
28:11but this was precisely
28:12wasn't it
28:12the fear
28:13if the reports
28:14are accurate
28:14about the Kennedy
28:15Caroline Kennedy
28:16in particular
28:16she was worried
28:17about this drama
28:18because she knew
28:19all these facts
28:19already in the books
28:20that people like you
28:21have written
28:21but they won't mean
28:22something to the new
28:23generation
28:23until they're acted
28:24out on television
28:24that's the potency
28:25of the media
28:25no and of course
28:27if they're just
28:27concentrating on failings
28:29which are all true
28:30we accept that
28:31so they weren't
28:33that good after all
28:34were they
28:34well now that
28:35for Kennedy
28:36and for anyone
28:37on that side
28:38of American politics
28:39that's just awful
28:41that's just treason
28:42that's kind of
28:43it's a really
28:44serious business
28:45I think part of
28:45the campaign
28:46that built up
28:46against this series
28:47was contemporary
28:48Democrats and liberals
28:49who do think
28:50that Kennedy
28:51is such an iconic
28:52figure for them
28:52that if you do
28:53take Kennedy down
28:54suddenly the standing
28:55of the Democrats
28:56itself
28:56even 50 years on
28:57is damaged
28:58there's over the top
28:59a motive
29:00you know
29:00don't break our hearts
29:02campaign
29:03you know
29:03for saying what
29:04that he took
29:04some painkillers
29:05and it was unfaithful
29:06wow
29:07it's almost like
29:08an illegitimising
29:09that they're fearing
29:10here
29:10I think it's an
29:11overreaction
29:11but it certainly
29:12exists in America
29:13I can see why
29:14the Kennedys were upset
29:15particularly by
29:16early drafts
29:17because it's not
29:18that there's all this
29:19it's not that
29:20the womanising
29:20or the drug taking
29:21is necessarily wrong
29:22historically
29:23it's just given
29:24such enormous weight
29:25and this is
29:26I mean if you read
29:27about Bob Dalek's
29:28biography of Kennedy
29:29which is one of
29:30the most reasonable
29:30ones
29:31has most of the
29:31material about
29:32womanising and drugs
29:33in it
29:34and they take up
29:34about 10 pages
29:35of about a 900 page
29:37biography
29:37and what the Kennedys
29:38understood as John
29:39said earlier
29:40was that this is
29:41how history
29:41will be conveyed
29:43these days
29:44and the History Channel
29:45I don't think
29:46has ever done anything
29:46like this before
29:47and they were going
29:49into new territory
29:50and I think
29:51they didn't really
29:52understand quite
29:53what they were
29:54letting themselves into
29:55out of their depth
29:56well now it's time
29:59to put the drama
30:00of the Kennedys
30:01to one side
30:02and to consider
30:03the realities
30:03of the Kennedy years
30:05first to set the scene
30:06with a personal
30:07recollection
30:07of Kennedy's
30:08thousand days
30:09is veteran
30:10American journalist
30:11and writer
30:11Lewis Lapham
30:1250 years ago
30:14as a young
30:14idealistic reporter
30:15he witnessed
30:16John Fitzgerald Kennedy
30:18making that famous
30:19inaugural speech
30:20that marked the beginning
30:21of what turned out
30:22to be an ill-fated presidency
30:24I was a correspondent
30:34for the New York
30:35Herald Tribune
30:35and I can remember
30:37watching the inauguration
30:38and being carried away
30:41I was young
30:42I was in my middle 20s
30:44an idealist
30:46and here was Kennedy
30:49saying
30:49Ask not
30:52what your country
30:53can do for you
30:55ask what you
30:56can do for your country
30:58I can remember
31:10the correspondent
31:12for Le Monde
31:14a cynical Frenchman
31:16and he was
31:17he was scornful
31:18he saw it
31:19as some kind
31:20of a Hollywood
31:20Frank Capra movie
31:22and I almost
31:24came to blows
31:25with him
31:25afternoon
31:30you seated
31:31I have several
31:36announcements
31:37to make
31:37first
31:38I have a statement
31:40about the Geneva
31:41negotiations
31:41for an atomic
31:43test ban
31:44these negotiations
31:46as you know
31:46the media
31:48loved Kennedy
31:49they would follow him
31:52around the country
31:53in his entourage
31:54it had this
31:57aura
31:58music
31:58football
31:59sexual
32:00rumor
32:01flirtation
32:02alcohol
32:03I mean
32:04it was like
32:05a cloud
32:05moving
32:06and within it
32:07the media
32:09were very much
32:09fellow travelers
32:11the 60s
32:13are the transition
32:15from print
32:16to television
32:17suddenly
32:18when you're
32:19a television
32:20press
32:21you have to
32:22wear a suit
32:23you have to have
32:24some kind of
32:25presence yourself
32:26would you please
32:27give us
32:28some of your
32:28thinking
32:29as to the
32:29rationale
32:30for this
32:31shift
32:31if it is a
32:32shift
32:32in our defense
32:33spending
32:33you become
32:34part of the play
32:35I would not say
32:36it's a shift
32:36and you lose
32:38some of the
32:39distance
32:39you lose
32:41the old
32:42idea of the
32:43press
32:43speaking truth
32:45to power
32:45I believe
32:50that this nation
32:51should commit
32:52itself
32:52to achieving
32:53the goal
32:54before this
32:55decade is out
32:56of landing
32:57a man on the
32:58moon
32:58and returning
32:59him safely
33:00to the earth
33:01Kennedy was
33:23very catholic
33:24in his
33:24approach
33:25to
33:26celebrity
33:27Hollywood
33:28as well
33:29as of the
33:29arts
33:30so he
33:31could have
33:31Robert Frost
33:32read at the
33:34inauguration
33:35he could have
33:36Pablo Casals
33:37play the cello
33:39in the White House
33:40but he also
33:40brought in
33:41Frank Sinatra
33:43and Marilyn Monroe
33:45and Angie Dickinson
33:46and then also
33:49the criminal element
33:52Judith Exner
33:53and who knows
33:54who else
33:54the administration
33:57had the feeling
33:58of a
33:59royal family
34:01where
34:02they were
34:03dependent upon
34:04each other
34:05and it was
34:05the family
34:06that mattered
34:07and then around
34:08that circle
34:09would be
34:09the hangers-on
34:10and the close
34:11friends
34:11and the old
34:12college pals
34:13and the
34:13whomever
34:14and then
34:15on the outer
34:16circle
34:17would be
34:17the beau monde
34:19the celebrity
34:20I only saw
34:23Kennedy
34:24close once
34:25which was
34:26at a birthday
34:27party for his
34:28younger brother
34:28Teddy
34:29you had a feeling
34:30of a man
34:31who was vulnerable
34:31and subject
34:34to all kinds
34:35of influences
34:36and people
34:37flatterers
34:39camp followers
34:40picking at him
34:42toward the end
34:43of the evening
34:43I had the impression
34:44of a stag
34:46being pulled down
34:47by hounds
34:48Mrs. Kennedy
35:05I want to thank you
35:06for letting us
35:07visit your official home
35:09this is obviously
35:10the room from which
35:10much of your work
35:11on it is directed
35:12yes it's attic
35:14and cellar
35:15all in one
35:15Jackie is
35:19the perfect princess
35:20and she paid the part
35:21beautifully
35:24I mean she had
35:25a little baby girl
35:26voice
35:27and she moved
35:28well
35:29and she
35:30knew the names
35:32of French
35:33impressionist painters
35:34as well as
35:36American
35:40great president
35:41she could tell
35:43the difference
35:43between
35:44good silver
35:46and cheap silver
35:48tell me about
35:49the silverware
35:51and the china
35:52Mrs. Kennedy
35:52it's not silver
35:54it's all gold
35:56or vermeil
35:57and these glasses
35:58they are ours
36:00I wanted a very
36:01simple design
36:02so that the china
36:04and silver
36:04and glass
36:05would show up more
36:06it's a lesson
36:07in manners
36:08that she is
36:09teaching
36:10the American
36:11people
36:11and they
36:12loved her
36:13within the past
36:23week
36:23unmistakable
36:25evidence
36:25has established
36:26the fact
36:27that a series
36:28of offensive
36:29missile sites
36:30is now
36:31in preparation
36:32on that
36:33imprisoned island
36:34the purpose
36:36of these bases
36:37can be none
36:38other
36:38than to provide
36:40a nuclear strike
36:41capability
36:42against the
36:43western hemisphere
36:44shall be the
36:45policy of this
36:46nation
36:46to regard
36:48any nuclear
36:48missile
36:49launched from
36:50Cuba
36:50against any
36:51nation
36:51in the western
36:52hemisphere
36:52as an attack
36:54by the
36:55Soviet Union
36:56on the United
36:56States
36:57requiring a
36:58full retaliatory
36:59response
37:00upon the
37:01Soviet Union
37:02after two years
37:18a conversation
37:19with the
37:19president
37:20of the
37:20United States
37:21as you look
37:22back upon
37:23your first
37:24two years
37:24in office
37:25sir
37:25has your
37:26experience
37:27in the office
37:28matched
37:28your expectations
37:29I would say
37:31that the
37:32problems
37:32are more
37:34difficult
37:35than I imagined
37:36them to be
37:36the responsibilities
37:37placed in the
37:38United States
37:38are greater
37:39than I imagined
37:40them to be
37:40and there are
37:42greater limitations
37:43upon our ability
37:44to bring about
37:45a favorable result
37:46than I had imagined
37:47them to be
37:47he's saying
37:48that these things
37:49are much harder
37:50than he had
37:51supposed
37:51much more
37:53intractable
37:53than he had
37:54supposed
37:54but on the
37:55other hand
37:55the decision
37:57gets left
37:57to him
37:58the easy
37:59decisions
38:00get made
38:00at a lower
38:01level
38:02it's much
38:03easier
38:03to make
38:04the speeches
38:04than it is
38:05to finally
38:05make the
38:05judgments
38:06because
38:07unfortunately
38:08your advisors
38:08are frequently
38:09divided
38:09if you take
38:11the wrong
38:11course
38:12and on
38:12occasion
38:12I have
38:13President
38:14bears the
38:15burden
38:15responsibility
38:16quite rightly
38:17the advisors
38:18may move
38:19on to new
38:19advice
38:20now therefore
38:29I George C.
38:30Wallace
38:30as governor
38:31of the state
38:32of Alabama
38:32do hereby
38:34denounce
38:34and forbid
38:35this illegal
38:37and unwarranted
38:37action
38:38by the central
38:39government
38:40governor Wallace
38:42he comes
38:44to the office
38:45in 1961
38:47without much
38:48to say
38:49about
38:50black civil rights
38:52in the United
38:53States
38:53he is then
38:55presented
38:55over the course
38:56of the next
38:56two years
38:57with violent
38:58protests
38:58in the south
38:59with the
39:00necessity
39:01to send
39:02federal troops
39:03to get a
39:03student
39:04into the
39:04university
39:05of Mississippi
39:06more federal
39:08troops
39:08to back
39:09down
39:09the
39:10insurrection
39:11of the
39:11governor
39:12of Alabama
39:13the heart
39:14of the
39:14question
39:14is
39:15whether
39:16all
39:16Americans
39:17are to be
39:17afforded
39:18equal rights
39:19and equal
39:20opportunities
39:20and he
39:22reacts
39:23to events
39:24he moves
39:26toward
39:27civil rights
39:29legislation
39:30if an
39:31American
39:32because his
39:33skin is
39:34dark
39:34cannot eat
39:35lunch
39:36in a
39:36restaurant
39:37open to
39:37the public
39:38if he
39:39cannot send
39:40his children
39:40to the best
39:42public school
39:42available
39:43if he
39:44cannot vote
39:45for the
39:46public
39:46officials
39:47who represent
39:47him
39:47then who
39:49among us
39:49would be
39:49content
39:50to have
39:51the color
39:51of his skin
39:52changed
39:53it doesn't
39:54get passed
39:55but Kennedy
39:55does respond
39:57and understands
39:58that the racial
39:58division in the
39:59United States
40:00is serious
40:02freedom
40:03now
40:03in 1990
40:17your sons
40:18daughters
40:20grandsons
40:21and grandchildren
40:22will be
40:23applying to the
40:24colleges of this
40:25state in a number
40:26three times
40:27what they do
40:28today
40:28our airports
40:30will serve
40:31five times
40:32there is a sense
40:33that he was
40:34looking forward
40:34to his second
40:36term
40:36that he was
40:38growing in
40:39office
40:39that he
40:41was gaining
40:42confidence
40:44that sense
40:45that he
40:46hadn't been
40:46defeated
40:47he wasn't
40:48checking out
40:49he entered
40:51office as a
40:52boy
40:52and had he
40:54been allowed
40:54to serve out
40:55his two terms
40:56he might have
40:57finished it
40:57as a man
40:58your old men
40:59shall dream
41:00dreams
41:00your young men
41:02shall see
41:04visions
41:04the bible
41:04tells us
41:05and where there
41:06is no vision
41:07the people
41:09perish
41:09President John
41:12Fitzgerald Kennedy
41:12in Houston
41:13Texas last night
41:14vibrant and alive
41:15looking forward
41:15to the future
41:16at night
41:35before we'd go
41:36to sleep
41:37Jack liked
41:38to play
41:39some records
41:39and the song
41:41he loved most
41:42came at the
41:42very end
41:43of the record
41:44the lines
41:46he loved
41:46to hear
41:46were
41:47don't let
41:49it be
41:49forgot
41:50that once
41:51there was
41:51a spot
41:52for one
41:53brief
41:54shining
41:54moment
41:55that was
41:56known
41:57as Camelot
41:58there'll be
42:00great presidents
42:01again
42:01but there'll
42:03never be
42:03another Camelot
42:04he transformed
42:09the notion
42:10of the presidency
42:11the presidency
42:12suddenly became
42:14the man on the
42:16white horse
42:17or the redeemer
42:18you see the same
42:19sort of thing
42:20with both
42:21Reagan
42:22and Clinton
42:24and now Obama
42:25it's the image
42:26they have to present
42:27the blank
42:29slate
42:31on which
42:32the voters
42:34are free
42:35to project
42:36their
42:37own
42:39fantasy
42:40well those are the recollections
42:47of Lewis Lapp
42:48but Tony Badger
42:49we've only got a thousand days
42:51by which to judge
42:52President Kennedy
42:54and his presidency
42:55it's probably not enough
42:57but that's all we've got
42:58how do we begin
42:59to draw up
43:00a kind of ledger
43:01of what he achieved
43:02and what he didn't
43:03I think first of all
43:04you have to acknowledge
43:05that he's a
43:05Cold War president
43:07and that he
43:08confronted one of the
43:09most dangerous crises
43:10in the Cold War
43:12the one that borders
43:13closest to nuclear
43:15annihilation
43:15and yet he also
43:18started the process
43:19of détente
43:19with the Testman Treaty
43:21it tends to be
43:22that the Cuban Missile Crisis
43:23and his handling of it
43:24tends to almost
43:25dwarf everything else
43:26that in the TV film
43:27they talk about
43:28saving the world
43:29I mean is that good enough
43:30that one achievement
43:31to say
43:31whatever else is true
43:32it was a successful presidency
43:35simply because of his
43:35handling of that
43:36well he was
43:37very lucky
43:38in the Missile Crisis
43:40Bob McNamara
43:41remembers
43:42then Defence Secretary
43:43then Defence Secretary
43:43here we were
43:45we were probably
43:46one of the best
43:47and brightest
43:47generation of American
43:49policy makers
43:50we handled the Missile Crisis
43:51almost as well as
43:53could be expected
43:54and yet
43:55we almost blew the world up
43:56because there were so many
43:59things they didn't know
44:00at the time
44:01they didn't know
44:02that the Russians
44:02had tactical nuclear weapons
44:04on the island
44:04they didn't know
44:06that there were submarines
44:07going around
44:08under Cuba
44:09who were out of radio
44:10contact with Moscow
44:11and might well have fired
44:13even after
44:14the settlement
44:15of the crisis
44:16so it was
44:17it was a close run thing
44:19so foreign policy
44:20is absolutely central
44:21to this brief presidency
44:23nevertheless there are
44:24there is a domestic agenda
44:26and there are issues
44:27that come up
44:27one after another
44:28just remind us Tony
44:29of what he was up against
44:30because the
44:31the history books tell us
44:33that there was a
44:33democratic controlled congress
44:35that looks as if
44:35you know something
44:36President Obama
44:37would envy now
44:39that looks as if
44:40things would have been
44:40pretty easy
44:41but actually it wasn't
44:42all that smooth for him
44:44particularly because
44:44of what kind of
44:45democrats were running congress
44:46yes he'd had a very
44:47narrow victory in 1960
44:49and almost everybody
44:50else in congress
44:51every other democrat
44:51had won much more
44:52easily than he had
44:53and so there was
44:54no coattails effect
44:56for ordinary congressmen
44:57and it was particularly
44:58true of southern democrats
45:00and southern democrats
45:01and conservative republicans
45:03had controlled congress
45:04in the sense of being
45:05a blocking force
45:06ever since 1938
45:07and southern democrats
45:08are very conservative
45:09very concerned
45:10racist
45:12I
45:12you know
45:13let's not forget
45:14this is what they really were
45:16in modern terms
45:17they were racist
45:18these were the dixiecrats
45:19and his party of course
45:20democrat party
45:21had all this power
45:22in the south
45:23but they didn't agree
45:24with him
45:24they weren't remotely
45:25liberal
45:25and that's where
45:26lbj came in
45:28as the running mate
45:29but there was always
45:30the problem of
45:30what are we going to do
45:31with these nutters
45:32in the south
45:33there was apartheid
45:34in the southern states
45:35of america
45:35and you could feel it
45:36it's sort of
45:36I look back now on it
45:38and you think
45:39was it really as bad
45:40as that
45:40it was
45:41but in the struggle
45:41for civil rights
45:42that john's describing
45:43the atmosphere
45:44how should we view
45:45kennedy
45:45was he a leader
45:46to challenge
45:47that racist
45:48set up there
45:49or a follower
45:50he became a leader
45:51he was certainly
45:52a follower
45:52most of the time
45:53he didn't intend
45:55to introduce
45:56civil rights legislation
45:57he was in fact
45:58worried about being
45:59outflanked by the republicans
46:01liberal republicans
46:01from the northeast
46:02they existed
46:03in those days
46:04and it was only
46:06as john says
46:07with old miss
46:07when he realised
46:09at the end of the day
46:12these white southerners
46:13are not going to be reasonable
46:14they're not going to be moderate
46:16as i have always believed
46:17they would be
46:18so even though it's a thousand days
46:19there's a decent record there
46:20my guess though
46:22sarah bradford
46:23is that people who are watching
46:24this presidency unfold
46:25from here
46:25they weren't
46:26making their calculations
46:27based on these sorts of
46:29achievements on the ledger
46:31there was something bigger
46:32about the kennedy presidency
46:34that had an impact here
46:35yes
46:35one reason why i left
46:37england at that time
46:38was i just thought
46:39it was incredibly boring
46:40and static
46:41and here when kennedy
46:43came of the picture
46:44it was something
46:45completely different
46:46that's how you wanted
46:48it to be
46:49and is this
46:49because
46:50is this a glamour thing
46:51that british politics
46:52i mean british politics
46:53didn't look anything like that
46:54did
46:54absolutely not
46:56i mean macmillan
46:57i suppose with his
46:58sort of walrusian moustache
46:59has typified
47:00what people my age
47:02didn't like about it
47:03they went to paris
47:04and jackie was a stunning
47:05success
47:06and um jfk said
47:09i'm the man who brought
47:10jackie kennedy to paris
47:11and she suddenly became
47:13this star
47:14this celebrity
47:15and i think
47:16people were
47:17over here
47:18began to think
47:19why can't
47:20ask me more like that
47:21john sergeant you were there too
47:23in that period
47:24young man
47:25student
47:25at the time
47:26yes gap year student
47:27about to study politics
47:28and of course
47:29it's all that excitement
47:30that was generated
47:31by
47:32the kennedys
47:33was
47:33oh it was palpable
47:34i remember
47:35going to
47:36an independence day
47:38party at the
47:38washington memorials
47:40a big picnic
47:40and the word came around
47:42the candidate
47:43the president
47:43was going to come along
47:45and the sense of excitement
47:47you cannot imagine it
47:49if someone said
47:49oh david cameron's
47:50in hyde park
47:50no it's not the same
47:52that everyone was sort of
47:54you know
47:54just gripped by the thought
47:56that he might be amongst us
47:57turned out he wasn't
47:58but was this
47:59that's made it so sort of
48:00bizarre
48:00was this the glamour thing
48:02that we're talking about
48:02hearing from sarah
48:03or was this to do with
48:04these big foreign policy
48:06achievements that
48:06those had happened
48:08obviously the cuban missile
48:09crisis had frightened us
48:10when i was at school
48:11terrified that we were
48:12all going to be annihilated
48:12but he'd saved us
48:13so that was quite important
48:14but i think the other thing
48:16is remember his tremendous
48:18skill with the media
48:19and when you've got a young
48:21family in the white house
48:22for the first time
48:23and you play it
48:25and you see these
48:26interviews with him
48:26he looks good doesn't he
48:28yeah he does
48:28even now you think
48:29there's a composed man
48:31but and the key thing is
48:33and where he's got
48:34the sort of a television
48:35trick completely right
48:36is that he's not talking
48:38down so he's asked a
48:40question and he then
48:41replies to that question
48:42as if well we could
48:44we'd all see it this way
48:45wouldn't we
48:45and you and i are of
48:46a different generation
48:47born after kennedy's
48:49death actually
48:50and then does this still
48:51resonate for you
48:52for us when you hear
48:53that speech for example
48:54the ask not what
48:55your country can do
48:57for you does it speak
48:57to you to hear that
48:58oh yeah because i hear
48:59the voices of almost
49:00every wannabe leader
49:02coming out of it
49:03because he is
49:04the playbook for how
49:06to communicate
49:07and exactly the point
49:08that john was making
49:08there that eye level
49:09communication
49:10you cannot listen to a
49:12tony blair speech
49:12these great speeches he
49:13gave all the age of
49:14achievement and what he
49:15wanted to do and that
49:16getting hold of the
49:18future that theme is very
49:20much there from kennedy
49:21have to be authoritative
49:22they have to look up to
49:24you but you mustn't look
49:25down on them that's the
49:26tony blair way of
49:27communicating you see it
49:28in barack obama you also
49:30see someone like gordon
49:31brown desperately trying to
49:32do it and why it doesn't
49:33work sometimes and how
49:34difficult it is it ought to
49:36be simple but it's not
49:38even now i mean you
49:39just i've often asked a
49:40politician to walk in front
49:41of a camera for a shot
49:42and you're amazed how few
49:44of our mps can walk in a
49:45convincing way so what is
49:47sort of striking when you
49:48look back on it that all
49:49these things now we take
49:50for granted the way that a
49:52president to be powerful
49:53must get that they must get
49:56have television power but
49:57he's not on his own in this
49:58use of the media jackie as
50:00well he's absolutely adept at
50:02television we saw that tour
50:03of the white house with this
50:04voice that sounds rather
50:05strange 50 years later but
50:07just tell us sarah bravid a
50:09bit about jackie's part of
50:10all this how active she was
50:11in the kennedy household's
50:13relationship with the media
50:14how proacted well i think
50:16that she certainly had this
50:18vision of the presidency
50:19from the social celebrity
50:21point of view of you know
50:23the house of the sun king
50:25making the white house from
50:27a dingy old place which was
50:29run by mamie eisenhower
50:30rather like an officer's mess
50:32into one of the most
50:34glamorous places that you
50:35could be invited to in the
50:37world and was it her idea to
50:38bring in the poets and the
50:39musicians absolutely yes i
50:42mean jack would get on with
50:43the politics and she went on
50:44with that side but she did
50:46understand that the you it
50:47wasn't just it was no good
50:48just doing all this behind
50:49closed doors you had to
50:49project it and inviting in the
50:51cameras for that special which
50:53i think got 56 million viewers
50:54going around the white house
50:55but also particularly life
50:56magazine she did have a very
50:58canny use of that yes what she
51:00and then what's so strange
51:01about it is that she could be a
51:04very private person and i think
51:06she did quite look down on
51:08journalists i'm afraid to say
51:09unlike jack that was you know
51:10a major part of her role and
51:12presence of camelot which is
51:14always fascinating it's a really
51:15odd idea when you think my
51:16camelot was a really happy place
51:18author in mythology was it no and
51:21yet it's what it does have is
51:22that mystique and poetic mystique
51:26in the way that it it's more
51:27enshrined i think after his death
51:29because it's gone and it's
51:31something that's gone and can
51:32never be regained and therefore
51:33you want it more let's talk about
51:35the assassination because
51:36obviously that's uh central to the
51:37kennedy mythology let's imagine
51:39ourselves on the 21st of november
51:41in 1963 uh where he's still alive
51:44and he seems to be looking ahead to
51:46a second term i mean first of all
51:47how likely was it that he would
51:49get re-elected and uh at that
51:52point were the high hopes that
51:54greeted his election in 1960 were
51:56they still intact do you think he
51:58was certain that he was going to
52:00get re-elected in 64 and he thought
52:02he was going to fight against barry
52:03goldwater and he was looking
52:04forward to it as indeed goldwater
52:06was because goldwater thought there
52:07would have been a real ideological
52:09contest in 64 unlike the one that
52:11he finally waged against lyndon
52:13johnson barry goldwater the arizona
52:15senator who did become the republican
52:17standard bearer very concerned
52:18uh and uh it was going to be a
52:20genuine battle of ideas uh and
52:22kennedy was pretty confident he was
52:24going to win and i think he would
52:26have done the big unanswered question
52:28of the kennedy administration uh did
52:31the kennedy administration lead to
52:32vietnam or was there a way out that
52:35kennedy would have taken and what's
52:36your own answer to that question the
52:38counterfactual is that kennedy because
52:40of the sorts of lessons he'd learned
52:42from the bay of pigs and because of
52:44his distrust of some military advisors
52:46might have taken in the long run once
52:49re-elected might have been prepared to
52:51take the united states out of vietnam
52:53but it's his men george bundy and
52:57robert mcnamara who advised johnson to
53:00go into vietnam fully and bobby kennedy and
53:03ted kennedy are very late in the day in
53:06deciding that the war was something that
53:07they were going to be against because
53:08popular culture tends to make it lbj's
53:10war it blames lyndon johnson for vietnam
53:12much more what you're saying is that
53:14actually it begins in earnest under
53:16kennedy and if he wanted to stop that
53:19march towards war a deeper entrenchment in
53:21vietnam he could have done and didn't and
53:22he didn't yes what you're left with though
53:24of course is the sense of unfinished
53:26business and an unfulfilled promise an
53:29unfulfilled promise so in terms of of the
53:31great kennedy myth as it were very
53:33powerful stuff to have him suddenly cut off
53:36as a young man so he never grows old so
53:39he never has the disappointment of the
53:41of the second term well of course that
53:44is that gives it the great powerful
53:45drama and it means there are no images
53:47of him as an old man and also would have
53:49tarnished that's it and it's also oh here
53:51he goes again nothing is done for the
53:53second time this is all for quite a brief
53:56period so tell us about jackie's conduct
53:58straight after the assassination i mean
54:00it's it's extremely famous that she
54:02continues to wear the blood-strained
54:04dress so that people should know exactly
54:06what they've done what they've done that
54:08what they've done please perhaps
54:10suggesting she and i think she meant
54:12right-wing southerners at that time but
54:16it is tempting to be slightly cynical about
54:18her conduct now thinking that she was even
54:20doing her media management then in the
54:22days after the assassination and
54:24particularly the funeral that she
54:26choreographs this extraordinary funeral yes
54:29when she was asking what we can do what she
54:31said oh it's all in the guidebook she meant
54:35the white house guidebook which described
54:37abraham lincoln's funeral so there they
54:40had the template and off they went and she
54:43seemed to follow every detail even down to
54:46making little john salute his father and
54:51which is the most pointed image of the
54:52funeral the three-year-old boy saluting
54:54zone did father now i think that had just
54:57happened and yet she's able to think about
54:59the image making i think she invites in a
55:01journalist from life magazine they sit
55:03together typing out this piece and the
55:05key word she uses and that goes in life
55:07magazine straight after the funeral and
55:09they work out the language together it's
55:11camelot that she deliberately include make
55:14sure that that's the image that recurs in
55:16that article what's been the effect of this
55:18camelot legend wrapped around the
55:21kennedy family ever since the assassination in
55:23one word mythology it claims the past as well as the
55:27president he lived in and his future
55:29aspirations and that's what gives him this
55:31universality as a political figure which
55:34it by definition once you've done camelot
55:36what can you say that is bigger for the
55:39imagination than camelot but it is this big
55:42claim it is royalty it is nobility and it's
55:44aspiration and that's the dream that's the
55:47legacy it's stronger than anything he could
55:49have delivered had he lived i think it's
55:50also the sentence isn't it it comes up so often
55:53now in politics what is the narrative what is
55:56the story how do we understand this and of
55:58course for the kennedys it's important to
56:01have got an agreement of sorts with what
56:03the end is and how does that seem and then
56:06preserve it because you don't want to say
56:08you want someone else to have that last
56:09word oh he was a womanizer really and it was
56:11all corrupt and he was really in the
56:13pocket of the mafia and you don't want
56:15all that coming in you want to preserve this
56:18this idea that this is one of the great
56:21presidencies it's the case is it not though
56:23john that if a another cousin even somebody
56:26quite obscure a nephew a great nephew called
56:28kennedy ran for high office there'd be huge
56:30media interest i mean enormous interest i
56:33mean the and also journalists are lazy if
56:36they can repeat a story they love it so if you
56:39can just say oh yeah what are we doing oh
56:40kennedy right and everybody knows how to
56:42write the kennedy story would have attract
56:44tragic end what about this might they be
56:46assassinated i mean it's so much part of what
56:50people know about politics and what we will
56:52know particularly about american politics
56:54and there's no there's no equivalent to
56:56that and even if it doesn't live on with
56:57actual kennedys it is absolutely in the
57:00minds of all politicians seem to have a
57:03kennedy somewhere british or american in
57:04the back of the money they've all got an inner
57:06kennedy that they think they can find and
57:09some of them do and some of them don't but
57:10there was only one jfk and that's what
57:13makes it the act you can't beat but that
57:15milliband they're talking about bobby kennedy david
57:17they can't stop talking about it that is
57:20certainly true but that is also part of
57:22the mythology that it's an unattainable and
57:23in america too in the 2008 campaign it was
57:26very striking that the comparison would
57:28that was made barack obama the comparison
57:30he wanted to have made was with jfk not
57:32with roosevelt or l linden johnson had
57:35these big legislative records what's that
57:37about it is about a new generation because
57:41until i mean until obama clinton in
57:44particular very much lived in the shadow of
57:46fdr that was the person you needed to
57:49to emulate and it's been terribly
57:52difficult very few democrat presidents
57:54have managed it and one of the reasons
57:55why kennedy is there's such a sort of
57:57yearning for kennedy amongst democrats is
58:01because they haven't actually controlled the
58:03white house and controlled congress and
58:05had the substantial record since linden
58:08johnson johnson is is tarnished because of
58:11the war and so the last one you can look back
58:14to with with real confidence about this
58:16is way democrats ought to do it was john
58:19kennedy tony badger and mccalvoy john
58:22sergeant and sarah bradford thank you all
58:24that's all we've got time for thank you and
58:27goodbye the world is very different now
58:30something has happened here we understand
58:34there is better shooting something has
58:37happened here i can see many many motorcycles
58:40i can see many many motorcycles this is
58:43kennedy's pink suit something has happened
58:46here many many motorcycles this is kennedy's pink suit
58:51the motorcade sped on
58:56the motorcade sped on
58:56the motorcade sped on
Be the first to comment