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00:00On this edition of The Fifth Estate, we're on St. Mary's Bay in Nova Scotia,
00:08the richest part of Canada's billion-dollar lobster industry where there's a war on the water.
00:14Go home.
00:15You go home, lady.
00:17Intimidation and frequent threats of violence.
00:21Places burning down, windows getting smashed in, houses being shot up, people getting shot at.
00:27You hear stories that's a little lawless sometimes around rural Nova Scotia.
00:30The fight over who gets to fish here has left communities bitter and divided.
00:35We're not pirates. We're not the villains.
00:37Does racism play a role here, do you think?
00:39Uh, no.
00:42A dispute with roots older than Canada itself.
00:45Love's not going anywhere. It's been around for a very long time.
00:50We look at who is cashing in on the chaos.
00:53I'm sick of it. There's nothing to do with conservation. It's just, it's total greed.
00:56We're not going anywhere. It's even.
00:58We're not going anywhere. It's even.
00:59I'm Steven D'Souza. This is The Fifth Estate.
01:01We're not just talking about the state.
01:04Let's go.
01:34Oh, there's some biggins in there, boys.
01:39Some biggins.
01:41Save a couple of those.
01:42Save a couple of these.
01:43Yeah, I want to take a picture of us, all three of us holding a dumbbell.
01:47Just take my picture with this big lobster.
01:49The kids will get a kick out of it at least.
01:52And remember, you've got to hold it up like this.
01:57Anybody else want a cool picture of the lobster?
01:59Out on the water, it's easy for Matt Cope to lose himself in the moment.
02:05To cast aside briefly the battle taking place here.
02:09It's just, when you're out here, the rest of the world almost don't exist for a minute.
02:16How many traps do you put out usually?
02:20Like, if I'm doing moderate?
02:21Yeah.
02:22Like, when I was doing it here and I got charged, I was fishing a half a shot of gear.
02:27So I was fishing 150 traps.
02:29And I had two other band members with me.
02:31So we were fishing about 50 traps apiece.
02:35Right.
02:37And during the commercial season, how many?
02:38We fished 300, which is a full shot.
02:41Full shot.
02:41Yeah.
02:44But this is the boat you were in when all the trouble went down.
02:46Yeah.
02:47Initially, yeah.
02:51Navigating the politics of these waters is far from easy.
02:54Every time the 39-year-old father of six sets out, he's putting himself at risk of threats,
03:00violence, and arrest for something he believes he has every right to do.
03:05What do you want them to understand about the dispute, like, what's happening here?
03:09I want them to understand that we're not poachers, we're not pirates.
03:13I was selling my catch to make money for my family.
03:16The waters in Atlantic Canada have long been harvested for lobster.
03:20The region is parceled into sections, each with its own strict rules for when lobster boats can go out.
03:26These are known as commercial seasons.
03:28Here in this part of Nova Scotia, St. Mary's Bay is fished commercially from November to May.
03:33One in five lobsters fished in Canada come from here.
03:37You weren't hiding anything, right?
03:38You were...
03:39No, absolutely.
03:39I had bright buoys.
03:42I had my phone number, my name on them.
03:46I actually wanted them to call me so I could explain to them what I was doing.
03:52Cope is licensed to fish during this area's commercial season, but he also fishes much smaller amounts out of season,
03:59a controversial practice that more than once has caught the eye of officers with Fisheries and Oceans Canada, or DFO.
04:07I have no problem fishing in season.
04:09I mean, that's what they're always going on about.
04:11Oh, if you just fish in season, if you just fish in season.
04:13And then we fish in season and it's still a big deal.
04:16And basically, they said they were going to take my boat.
04:18Who's that, DFO?
04:20DFO, yeah.
04:20Cope is Mi'kmaq.
04:27They're the predominant First Nations group in Nova Scotia.
04:32He traces his right to fish here to treaties signed with the British Crown in the 1700s.
04:38So there's a hierarchy here in Nova Scotia because of these treaties that there's a hierarchy.
04:44It goes commercial-based fisheries, which is a privilege-based fisheries,
04:48and then there's rights-based fisheries, which is higher.
04:50In the heart of St. Mary's Bay, at the wharf in Sonyeville,
04:56the dispute over the hierarchy, as Cope describes it, unfolded in 2020.
05:01Mi'kmaq launched a rights-based fishery outside the commercial season,
05:06and it caught international attention.
05:08We're right on schedule.
05:09We're going to have our elder Becky Gillian give us an opening prayer.
05:15Journalist Maureen Gugu covered the event.
05:17Five years ago, during the middle of the COVID pandemic,
05:22the Smeagnegoti First Nation decided to launch its own moderate livelihood fishery.
05:27We covered the speeches, we got shots of them giving out lobster tags to fishermen and then they were going on the boats.
05:38As soon as they went on the boats, they were met with like a flotilla of non-indigenous fishers who were ready to take those traps out of the water and there was clashes.
05:51You're not welcome here.
05:52No, you're welcome here.
05:53You just said we're not welcome, you said to go home.
05:56Instead of taking our money, go home.
05:58You go home, lady.
06:00And that went on for about a good two-month period in that area and it got very violent, it got very scary.
06:10They said they won't let me leave unless they have my lobsters.
06:14There was fishermen, you know, who were trapped inside of a fishing plant at one point and with non-indigenous fishermen threatening to burn them out.
06:24That wharf is now fenced off.
06:30Entry is controlled.
06:32But it doesn't keep away the tension that's still sharply felt here by the First Nations fishers on the other side.
06:40Even in this postcard setting.
06:44The Clare region of Southern Nova Scotia takes pride in its Acadian roots and its connection to the sea.
07:02Here the lobster business touches everyone in some way and is the lifeblood of these communities.
07:08Outside of the Halifax area, once you start coming west, probably every coastal community its main economic driver is the lobster fishery.
07:16The lobster fishery is the big enchilada.
07:19If it wasn't for that, I'm not sure how many of these smaller communities, coastal communities, actually could survive.
07:25My father owned a small fish plant.
07:27Anyway, I ended up, like a lot of the smaller communities around here, most everybody ended up going fishing.
07:32Bernie Berry sets the table for what the commercial fishers see as the key issue.
07:37At the end of the day, it's the stock is the main worry here.
07:43And without the stock, a healthy stock or a sustainable stock, nobody has nothing.
07:48Okay?
07:49And so we've got to get our head together and we've got to take better care of this.
07:54There's still lobsters here, but you cannot harvest them in the summer and expect them to be there in the commercial season in the fall.
08:03It doesn't work that way.
08:04And the problem with the harvest in the summer, it's unregulated.
08:08It's not supposed to be happening.
08:10When you talk to commercial fishermen, they say that the moderate livelihood fishery, anything out of season, is dangerous to the stocks.
08:17They may say that to you, they never say that to me.
08:20Somebody that knows better?
08:21The question of First Nations' impact on lobster stocks has been trailing them for a long time.
08:27Questions remain unresolved.
08:29What are the natives entitled to?
08:31How many plan to enter the fishery and for which species?
08:34That's what the fight's all about.
08:36Lobsters.
08:37A few lobsters.
08:38First Nations' fishers say their treaty rights were upheld by a 1999 Supreme Court decision.
08:45Donald Marshall was charged and convicted of fishing and selling eels without a license.
08:51Marshall was out to make a point on behalf of all Mi'kmaq that they have the right not only to hunt and fish without a license, but also to make a living doing it.
09:00The Supreme Court said Mi'kmaq, just 5% of the province's population, have a right to fish and sell their catch to make what the court called a moderate livelihood.
09:13We're here to make sure our kids, in the future, will have something better.
09:20Because that's so weak, like look at him.
09:23Some bands have negotiated agreements with DFO to do that.
09:27But the government wants them to sell only during commercial seasons.
09:30He looks like he's going to make it though.
09:32Oh yeah, he's flopping, he's swimming now.
09:34But Cope says he should be able to fish for a moderate livelihood when needed.
09:39I don't like that they limit the potential of what we can make based on a term such as moderate livelihood.
09:49The opposition is still there, though not as overt as the open clashes of 2020.
09:54Indigenous fishers, a lot of them have talked about dealing with racism on the waters when they fish with non-indigenous fishers.
10:02They're dropping traps, but the guys behind the non-native fishers are cutting their traps as soon as they drop them.
10:14I don't think people realize how racism affects an individual.
10:18It's very personal and it's very stressful.
10:21And sometimes your life is put at risk because of it.
10:25So I think, you know, for the fishermen that I've interviewed, they would prefer to have a season where they could fish without feeling like they're being discriminated against.
10:38Some folks, some First Nations individuals will say that they are permitted to have a moderate livelihood fishery.
10:48Well, the Supreme Court said that.
10:50Yeah, but it's never been defined.
10:52You know, does racism play a role here, do you think?
10:55I don't think.
10:58I mean, back in 2020, that's how, unfortunately, I think it was painted.
11:04But I think what it was, I mean, certainly the communities here and the fishermen were painted as racist because, I mean, things exploded.
11:12First Nations gear was cut off and all that.
11:15That was just pent up frustration, anger, because nobody in the government seemed to be wanting to help.
11:24And they took it upon themselves.
11:25Was it right?
11:26No.
11:27But, no.
11:31We're just going to tie it around the boats here.
11:35What do you think is at the heart of their opposition?
11:37It's a very passionate field, fishing.
11:39I mean, right from your fishing ground, how you tie your traps, what bait you use.
11:44Your family's been doing it for so long, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.
11:48So that if you feel like you're entitled to something, I get that they're going to be mad that there's people out there fishing and making money.
11:53Well, they're not.
11:54But we could talk about residential schools.
11:57We could talk about the systematic racism.
12:00We could talk about the racism we get from the commercial fishing.
12:03But when it all comes down to it, we have a treaty right to do so.
12:05And if any one of them could fish in between the season, you guess what?
12:10They'll be out there fishing.
12:16But fishing out of season, as Cope has been doing, puts him in a tough spot not just with commercial fishermen.
12:22DFO considers that illegal, leaving him few options to sell whatever he catches.
12:29Do you find you have places to sell when you're doing the moderate livelihood?
12:33Or how hard is it to sell during that time?
12:36It all depends on you.
12:37Like, I have the connections and the resources to be able to sell to, like, very broad markets.
12:44But for the person that don't have as good connections, then that's all they can do is somebody can really nickel and dime them, right?
12:56In 2023, Canada's lobster industry pulled in almost $1.8 billion, almost half of that coming from Nova Scotia.
13:05With so much money in play, Bernie Berry alleges fishing in the summer is being leveraged into big sales.
13:13This is simply a notice season commercial black market fishery because it is profitable.
13:21And most of the stuff that's being bought in here is being bought in cash and or drugs.
13:27Your average lobster buyer isn't doing that.
13:30So somebody else has got to be involved and stuff like that.
13:33How do you know that? Are you hearing stories or reports?
13:36Yeah, well, again, it's just anecdotal stuff.
13:43But what is the reality here?
13:46In a place where little goes unnoticed, we try to get to the bottom of what's really happening on the wharf.
13:54Coming up...
13:55How do I look? Terrible?
13:56We follow the money in the alleged black market.
13:59You can say I came out threatening or I sound threatening to arrest me.
14:02Who is in danger?
14:03As soon as I looked up at the wall and saw a pretty clear hole, it's pretty obvious it was a bullet.
14:09And just who has the right to fish lobster in these waters?
14:12Even if half of what they're saying is true, most people wouldn't even believe it.
14:30In this seaside town, for some the only thing bigger than the love of lobster is the fear of the crime around the industry.
14:37This is the Clare region with a population of just 8,500, where the lobster business in this small town has brought big city problems.
14:46I mean, I grew up here. I love my hometown. And it's hard seeing it being abused so badly.
14:56The towns along this shore have recently seen more than their fair share of crime.
15:01The Fifth Estate has tracked allegations of extortion, assault, arson, even threats to kill a dog.
15:10At one point it was happening so frequently, you couldn't even keep up with what was going on.
15:14And there's poaching going on from Yarmouth to anywhere. You know, it's so vast. The ocean's hard to control.
15:19J.C. Comeau runs a business at the Mataggan Wharf.
15:23It's coming primarily from the fact that this legal underground poaching activity generates a lot of money to a handful of people.
15:30And they will do everything they possibly can to keep it going.
15:33J.C. But what is really tearing apart this community?
15:37Many commercial fishers pointed the finger at the First Nations activity on Soniaville Wharf.
15:43First Nations can go out in the summer legally under a license known as FSC.
15:49Fishers can harvest limited amounts for food, social and ceremonial purposes.
15:55But they're not allowed to sell their catch.
15:58According to this internal report from DFO, authorities have evidence confirming that lobster-caught in FSC is being illegally sold, often through unreported cash sales.
16:11But is that the whole story?
16:13This guy right here is a small jumbo, so he's between three to four pounds.
16:17That's a big boy.
16:19J.C. Joffrey Jobert moved back to the Clare area from Halifax in 2020 to manage the family business.
16:29To the outside eye, the lobster processing business seems straightforward.
16:34So in a crate that we had seen earlier, those grey boxes, they hold about a hundred pounds just mixed in there.
16:40Buy lobsters from boats on the wharf, get the seafood out to distributors around the world.
16:46And then the trays are going to individually partition each lobster, and that's just to prevent them from eating each other.
16:52Did you have a sense of what you were getting yourself into?
16:54I had known a little bit that it can be a somewhat rough industry and one that's not always governed the best, I guess you could say.
17:01Or you hear stories that's a little lawless sometimes around rural Nova Scotia.
17:06Buyers like Jobert have to go buy the book.
17:09We're not allowed to buy a seasoned lobster, and I think we would face a hefty fine if we did.
17:13I don't think the indigenous people support or want any of the criminal activity that's going on that their middlemen may be doing.
17:20I think they're just trying to find a place to sell their catch.
17:22So typically, commercial fishermen, the last little while, they make them like $8 to $10 a pound.
17:27And then I've heard rumors that the indigenous fishermen are only going to pay around $4 a pound because it is an illegal lobster,
17:34kind of like a gray zone lobster or whatever you want to call it.
17:36Yeah.
17:37And I think that's just too low for the species they're dealing with.
17:42But I mean, from what you've seen, I mean, would you describe it as organized crime or what would you describe it as?
17:46Somewhat organized, but I wouldn't say it's like a huge operation or such large scale.
17:53In early 2024, Joubert started buying from a new boat and trouble followed.
18:02The story goes that that boat had upset some people.
18:06So they started making small threats here and there, right, like a text message or something like that to leave that boat alone.
18:13And I guess it kind of just boiled over to the point of that gunshot happening.
18:18That fall, a bullet ripped through his home.
18:21I cut through the dining room, the kitchen and stopped in the living room.
18:26Wow.
18:27It just seemed so crazy and intense, not something I had experienced before.
18:30Do you feel scared knowing that there are individuals out there capable of this kind of stuff?
18:34I definitely feel uneasy.
18:35There's some reckless individuals like that that would, you know, go to those extents almost for nothing, for pride maybe.
18:43No one has been charged in that shooting.
18:48But we did track down one of the men charged with a number of lobster industry related crimes, including allegedly threatening Joubert.
19:01If he doesn't answer the front, try the side.
19:03Yeah.
19:04Yeah.
19:05He calls himself a shady, fly-by-night lobster dealer.
19:08Fine.
19:09Have a good day.
19:10There were weeks of negotiations to get him on camera, including a few in-person visits.
19:16How do I look?
19:21Terrible?
19:22He eventually agrees to sit down with CBC Nova Scotia reporter Richard Cuthbertson.
19:28We're in a lobster mafia or, you know, my dad don't even talk after the time.
19:31It's not, like it's, we stood there.
19:36Born in every town, I guess.
19:37I don't know.
19:38This is 33-year-old Zachary Thibault.
19:40He's currently on house arrest.
19:42If the Thibault family is an organized family, they gotta change the definition.
19:45Bunch of degenerate drug addicts driving around and being assholes, about it.
19:49We wanted to know if he shot at Geoffrey Joubert's home.
19:53Turns out Thibault was in jail at the time.
19:56Can't shoot that far.
19:57Not from Burnside anyways.
19:58Yeah, you were in jail.
19:59We know Thibault is facing charges for threatening to kill Joubert, extortion and harassment.
20:07Thibault says he's done some bad things, but denies those allegations.
20:12You know, I went to jail this year.
20:13I was guilty on those I went to jail for, but definitely not f***ing guilty on this one.
20:18But beyond his criminal past, we wanted his insight.
20:22He says for years he worked as an unlicensed broker.
20:26So this is all cash?
20:27Yeah, most of it.
20:28Yeah, so how much cash are we talking about?
20:30$50,000, $100,000.
20:32Like you've got $50,000.
20:33Yep.
20:34Like what are you carrying in?
20:36Pringle box, Pringle box, overboot, maybe a truck, whatever.
20:41You're just driving around $50,000 in cash?
20:43Yep.
20:44He says unreported cash sales are a tax dodge and happen more often than people realize.
20:50There's 1,688 boats in District 33, 34.
20:55There's not one of them that doesn't sell lofsters cash.
20:57But you don't know for certain that those fishermen are not declaring that money on their taxes.
21:02If they report it, I'm a porn star.
21:04There's about as much likelihood as one is the other.
21:06Let me ask you this.
21:07You're unreported.
21:08All the business that you did, your unreported sales, how much of that was Indigenous?
21:12How much non-Indigenous?
21:1410% Indigenous.
21:16Yeah, 10-15%.
21:19And the rest is non-Indigenous?
21:21Yep.
21:22Do you think this is all being sort of used to fuel this sort of energy against the Indigenous fisheries?
21:30Absolutely.
21:31Absolutely.
21:32Whether it be a scapegoat or just a lightning rod.
21:34Is this all lobster?
21:35Absolutely not.
21:36And all just lobster green?
21:37Yeah.
21:38I'll bet my reputation is as shitty as it may be on that.
21:43Thibault is making a point that echoes what many First Nations fishers told us.
21:47That they feel they're being unfairly blamed for risking stocks, causing crime and illegally selling.
21:54I get angry when I hear it's illegal.
21:58But, you know, it doesn't need to be portrayed that way, right?
22:10Shelly Denny is a fishery scientist.
22:12She also researches Mi'kmaq self-governance and the harm that comes when treaties aren't respected.
22:18If we are fishing in season with non-Mi'kmaq lobster fishers, that we are at risk and that we can be targeted.
22:27Every non-Mi'kmaq harvester is, you know, vile or, you know, against the fishery.
22:33But there are some out there who will very much make sure people are bothered and try as much as they can to discourage them from continuing to fish there.
22:44Some First Nations fishers at Sonyeville told us they feel like they're being watched, their every move tracked.
22:51When we were there, commercial fishers parked outside the fence, sitting, watching.
23:00And I own a boat over there.
23:02This Mi'kmaq fisher tells us seeing the commercial fishers brought back visceral memories.
23:08She sees their presence as intimidation, though it's not always this obvious.
23:13Are you monitoring cameras? Are you, like, reviewing footage?
23:17Tell me about, like, just keeping a track of all this stuff.
23:19Yeah, well, listen, again, the number of people that's got eyes on that place,
23:23and then with the drone footage and stuff like this, it's, there's not much that escapes us.
23:31Bernie Berry and other commercial fishers are watching, reporting what they see to DFO from their cars and from the air.
23:39People actually do some drone video. You can't deny videos.
23:44They claim these videos show lobster being illegally harvested for sale.
23:51If you can climb a fire escape or a ladder with one camera, you can get up above, outside of the gate,
23:58you know, when you're back here, you're safe and everything, and you can see the whole thing, what's going on.
24:03Dan Fleck is a retired DFO officer hired to help the commercial fishers.
24:08He says their surveillance is necessary.
24:11We needed to have video physical proof in the eyes of the Canadian public,
24:16because it's a Canadian resource for everyone to actually see how it's being exploited, overexploited.
24:26One thing First Nations and commercial fishers agree on, that DFO enforcement isn't hitting the mark.
24:32First Nations fishers tell us they feel it's criminalizing their treaty rights.
24:37Commercial fishers we spoke to say DFO isn't cracking down hard enough.
24:42So we feel some pressure.
24:44Noel D'Entremont leads conservation and protection for the maritime region.
24:48There's a lot of opinions on this matter, whether the community members here in Clare, commercial industry, First Nations communities, everyone has their side.
25:02What we do is enforcement is enforcement.
25:07How difficult is that though for your officers when they're out there and knowing they have to make these distinctions?
25:12Yeah, so it is very challenging for our officers and we do hear that.
25:17And that's where we try and give them the clarity that they need, that keep in mind what is authorized and what isn't.
25:27This past summer across southwest Nova Scotia, DFO seized six boats and more than 1,500 traps, filling their storage cages.
25:38Coming up, the long fight for Mi'kmaq managed fisheries.
25:42The government's reaction was severe, strong, crush the treaty fishery.
25:48This is our treaty!
25:49And the battle over the message.
25:51Do you see a world in which the moderate livelihood fishery could exist outside of the commercial season?
25:56No. No I don't.
25:58And we're doing a lot of work right now, so there's like, so there's work, there's a lot of workers and stuff around too.
26:15The majority of people that are out there fishing are all following the rules.
26:20The only thing that might differ is that some people fish out of season.
26:25As a Mi'kmaq fisherman and businessman asserting what he says are his treaty rights,
26:31Matt Cope finds himself tangled in the web of accusations and anger surrounding the lobster fishery.
26:37And, um, so they drive by here, my house and stuff.
26:40An eight-foot fence now surrounds his yard, built in part to block the prying eyes of fisheries officers,
26:47who he says surveil him from the street and with drones, ever since his arrest on fishery charges in 2020.
26:54Did somebody give them instructions to specifically target, say, certain native targets?
27:02Do you know what I mean?
27:03Like, if that's the case, then I find that's kind of, uh, stereotypical.
27:09Maybe unjust.
27:11We have no problem trying to work for it.
27:16So it's frustrating because they call us lazy when we don't work.
27:20And when we do work, we're, uh, we're taking something from them.
27:25Call me criminal.
27:26Villains and poachers and organized crimes.
27:30Just, just, the list goes on and on.
27:32It's just fear-mongering.
27:34He says DFO plays into that fear.
27:37I mean, if there was an avenue where I could report my catch and, uh, do it completely on the books
27:44and it be regulated, then I would do that.
27:46I have no problem doing that.
27:48There's nothing black market about it at all.
27:51I mean, if we have the rights, then make it so that we can sell our catch to the buyers.
27:56Make it so that we can report our catch.
27:59Let's put the haze together.
28:00It's getting dark again, getting dark again.
28:16For the second time since we got up, it's getting dark again.
28:21They still love to go out there and fish.
28:24I mean, despite all the challenges.
28:25They, I mean, it's part of their core of who they are as Mi'kmaq.
28:29We've always been a coastal people.
28:31And the fishery's always been a part of our life.
28:33And, uh, they absolutely love it out there.
28:36They absolutely love it.
28:37Uh, being able to fish, look after their families, and look after their friends.
28:42And, uh, there's so much pride, uh, in being part of that.
28:47You gotta thank Dowl Marshall Jr.
28:50It all started there.
28:52In 1999, Dan Christmas was the executive chairperson of the Union of Nova Scotia Indians.
29:01A prominent member of the team supporting the Marshall case.
29:05And finally, I remember that day, September 17th, 1999, clearly as Bell.
29:12I wasn't there for myself.
29:14I was there for my people.
29:16When our lawyer called us and said that we had won.
29:21And so that was, uh, probably one of the most happiest moments.
29:27Because I think we knew, all of us in that room, that things will never be the same again.
29:33In that landmark ruling, the Supreme Court said Mi'kmaq could fish for a so-called moderate livelihood.
29:41But the court left it up to First Nations and the federal government to negotiate what that term meant in practice.
29:50What does moderate livelihood mean?
29:53We have no idea.
29:55We always thought that was a fiction, a legal fiction, that really had no meaning.
29:59It was almost discriminatory, almost racist to say, well, you know, everyone else can fish commercially,
30:07but when you do your fishery, you know, keep it down here.
30:11Don't make too much money off it.
30:13The Mi'kmaq were given the right to basically harvest the bounty of creation to sustain ourselves.
30:23That's how we understood it.
30:27In the following years, DFO did help expand Mi'kmaq fisheries, transferring licenses to them from commercial fishers.
30:35But Christmas says DFO avoided the key issue, one that would follow him later in his career.
30:41They wanted us to accept cash to enable First Nations to obtain boats, licenses, gear, training,
30:53but without ever referencing the treaty or the court case.
30:57And so it enabled the communities to enter into the fishery, the commercial fishery, in a big way.
31:04There was no recognition of our treaty right, what the court called a moderate fishery.
31:11And we continued to ask the government, are you going to set up a table to talk about the treaty right?
31:18And it was just silence.
31:22So why don't you just take yourself to the end of the war and respect us?
31:25We do respect you.
31:26Listen, do we have to blockade this war for what?
31:29That silence led to clashes when First Nations fishers took to the water and DFO responded in force.
31:37Oh my God!
31:40You have a license issued by the Department of Fisheries to authorize you.
31:45Do you understand that?
31:47Your fish is not the food fishery, this is our treaty.
31:55Then as now, commercial fishers have stood in opposition, arguing the stock must be protected.
32:01This is nowhere near aggressive.
32:07The various fishers associations have since taken their message to the courts, government and media,
32:13forming the Unified Fisheries Conservation Alliance in 2020.
32:18We collected millions of dollars from our members and we have a key mandate,
32:22and it's to pursue a legal resolution to the Marshall issue.
32:27Colin Sproul is the head of the alliance.
32:30I think that a lot of indigenous governments have perverted the Marshall decision into thinking
32:35that Marshall rights mean an open-ended accumulation of fishery access for coastal First Nations.
32:43Do you see a world in which the moderate livelihood fishery could exist outside of the commercial season?
32:47No. No, I don't.
32:49There's one lobster resource for Atlantic lobster,
32:52and it needs to be managed under one set of management plans.
32:56Commercial fishers argue against expanding treaty fisheries by pointing to the off-season as a time when lobster can repopulate.
33:03This lobster here, ooh, lovely little eggs, they're always in some sort of reproductive season.
33:10They're not a very complicated species, you know, they're basically the insects of the sea.
33:15Shelley Denny is the director of aquatic research and stewardship at the Unamagi Institute of Natural Resources.
33:22It's healthy, it's been healthy, I mean there's been some ups and downs like any other species that's fished commercially.
33:27The resource is fine, the lobster industry and the population seems to be doing great,
33:32and, you know, there just needs to be more room made and more accommodations made for Mi'kmaq fishers.
33:37The level at which the Mi'kmaq are harvesting, even if they're harvesting during seasons where the lobster industry isn't, the impact would be minimal.
33:48The internal DFO memo we obtained through access to information confirms much of what she's saying.
33:54Dated June 13th, it says lobster stocks across the Maritimes, including around St. Mary's Bay, are in the healthy zone.
34:02And that while the commercial catch is trending down in parts, DFO says the decrease has not been directly linked to the food, social and ceremonial fishery.
34:13Like, no matter what the government says, no matter what biologists say, we can see the effect of the incredible amount of illegal fishing.
34:22DFO's own science, though, is saying that overall the health of the stock is in good shape.
34:27So, is that not a good enough sign that things are okay and that there is enough for everyone?
34:32Certainly the lobster resource is in good shape, but it's important to understand why it is.
34:37Trap limits, releasing of buried females, minimum sizes, increasing the minimum size, escape vents in our traps.
34:44There are literally hundreds of management things, but the most important one of all is the seasonality of our fishery.
34:50At the end of the day, though, isn't it as simple as there is only so much to go around and you and your members simply just don't want to share?
34:57You don't want to give up your share of the pie?
35:00Certainly there's enough lobsters to sustain all the communities that need to rely on it.
35:05I think those narratives have been put forward by certain indigenous leaders because it's politically advantageous to them.
35:1213 people have held the position of fisheries minister since the Marshall decision.
35:21The current minister, Joanne Thompson, sent us this statement.
35:24Let me be very clear, fishing without a license is illegal.
35:29She also says that since the Marshall decision, the government of Canada has invested over $1 billion to implement the right to communal commercial fishing licenses.
35:40That didn't completely answer our questions, so we came to Ottawa to ask the minister directly if she will resolve a quarter century of uncertainty.
35:51Hi Minister, we're the Fifth Estate. Just wondering, will you commit to solving the moderate livelihood question one for all?
35:59Minister, what do you think about DFO? Do you feel like they're criminalizing First Nations fishers by enforcing the law the way they are?
36:07The minister didn't give us much of her time, but look who did get a meeting with her.
36:12Check out this photo from June.
36:14Some familiar faces.
36:16Bernie Berry, Dan Fleck, and Colin Sproul.
36:23Coming up.
36:24Sometimes they're getting their boat seized, sometimes they're getting their car seized.
36:28Mi'kmaq fishers forced to take their fight back to court.
36:31We've been criminalized, harassed, all the way through this system that's designed this way.
36:36That's designed to be racist towards us.
36:48October 1st.
36:51In Nova Scotia, this is Treaty Day.
36:54A chance to recognize the peace and friendship struck by the Mi'kmaq and the Crown.
37:00We are all treaty people.
37:01But also a reminder of the work remaining.
37:0626 years since the landmark position, we still need to work on trying to get our rights recognized.
37:18The event had plenty of dignitaries, but few provincial or federal politicians showed up.
37:26It's an annual event, and every year, questions hang over the celebration.
37:36Will anything change?
37:38And is Canada listening?
37:40It is just people have the right to self-determination.
37:43We have the right to govern and manage our own fishery.
37:46As long as that principle is ignored, we'll never have peace in the water.
37:55Matt Cope often finds himself forced to shed his fishing gear and put on a suit.
38:01I don't even think I can count how many of these I've been through.
38:04He's faced a number of lobster fishery charges since 2020 and hopes his case will be among the last.
38:14Fundamentally, when DFO says you're breaking the law, do you see yourself as breaking the law?
38:19Absolutely not.
38:21The very law that they're claiming that I'm breaking is unconstitutional.
38:25I am the owner-editor of Gugu Guest News, an independent Indigenous news in Atlantic Canada.
38:36Journalist Maureen Gugu is closely following how the fisheries fight has moved from the water to the courts.
38:44It takes up a lot of my time.
38:46There's at least about two, three cases each week.
38:49I started getting calls from fishermen, and they were saying that they were trying to do their treaty fishery in the summer,
38:58and they were getting their gear seized.
39:01Not recognizing their moderate livelihood treaty rate, DFO was still enforcing the Fisheries Act
39:09and charging them with illegal fishing.
39:12So I just started tracking the court cases, getting the court information.
39:16I was really shocked to learn that there were over 50 Indigenous Fishers who were charged.
39:26It is so disheartening.
39:29You would think that after Marshall that there would be no more court cases.
39:36But it seems that the government is so anxious to re-litigate the case
39:41that they want to get a different decision, that they'll continue to charge and charge and charge and recharge.
39:48Why not the federal government just sit down with the First Nation leaders
39:53and hammer out what a treaty fishery looks like?
40:00It's not a Mi'kmaq treaty fishery, it's a DFO commercial fishery.
40:03So until the day comes when it becomes truly a Mi'kmaq treaty fishery, then we would have arrived to where we should be.
40:12Dan Christmas saw a way forward without going to the courts.
40:16After he was made a Senator, the first Mi'kmaq in the upper chamber,
40:20he led a Senate report recommending Fisheries and Oceans Canada fully recognize treaty fishing.
40:25Let Mi'kmaq create their own system, separate from the commercial structure.
40:31I can't tell you how disappointed I was when DFO just merely dismissed our recommendations as nothing.
40:40Over the generation they've been at this, for Dan Christmas...
40:45We would like to have the promise and also Governor of Canada to recognize
40:48that these ways of living still are extended in our community
40:52and that they're still an important means for some of our families to get by each year.
40:57And Bernie Berry...
40:59There is individuals saying, you know, let's go fishing next week.
41:02Others are saying leave your plots in the water after the season type thing.
41:06There is certainly this frustration.
41:08It always comes back to family and livelihood.
41:11Cross your fingers, cross your toes and hope for the best.
41:14But a lot of instinct and experience go into it, doesn't it?
41:16If you go fishing for 30 or 40 or 50 years,
41:19Mother Nature usually wins a bigger percentage of the time and you're just playing catch up.
41:26He hopes their strong ties to the past are respected when the future of the fishery is set.
41:32The industry should have a lot more input as opposed to somebody like you said,
41:36sitting in an office in Ottawa and just thinking how it should look.
41:40A really good friend of mine made this for me.
41:46I wear it at special stuff like events.
41:50Sometimes I wear it to court and stuff.
41:53Especially with the ones where we're arguing the treaty.
41:57It's got the lobster on there.
42:00Commemorating the 1752 treaty.
42:02Matt Cope draws strength from the treaties because for him, they're more than history.
42:12They're personal.
42:14But right there, that's our family tree with Jean Baptiste Cope.
42:21He would be my great-great-grandfather.
42:26He's one of the most recognized signatories of the 1752 treaty that gave us the right to hunt and fish.
42:36For now, he's going to keep setting off, resolved not to be trapped on the water.
42:41I'm already almost 40 years old, so I want my children to be able to exercise their rights.
42:47I want them to be able to work hard and fish and be able to make a living out of it.
42:53I have the right to fish. I have the right to sell that fish.
42:57It's protected under the Constitution and I'm going to fight that until the end.
43:00On this season of The Fifth Estate.
43:11That's all that stuff.
43:13You're watching the movement of funds and you're looking for points where there's a mistake made.
43:19And there's almost always a mistake made.
43:21He went on to be a very evil genius in that way.
43:26Where are all these drugs coming from?
43:27I would love to answer that, but I can't.
43:30Because?
43:32Because I know where they're coming from.
43:34We need to talk to the police. We need to talk to the resort.
43:37Like, you know, we don't know where he is.
43:39Do you come here often?
43:41I do. I sleep in here quite often.
43:44You sleep in his bed?
43:46I do, yeah.
43:48When a mother breaks down on the phone with you and cries because her son is missing, it's not easy.
43:54It's not easy.
43:55You may have an idea of where these kids could be.
43:58Yeah, for sure.
44:00Places burning down, windows getting smashed in, houses being shot up.
44:05There's nothing to do with conservation, it's just, it's total greed.
44:08Oh my gosh, hi.
44:10You won't leave.
44:11No. No, no, no.
44:12No, no, no.
44:13Do you hope that people can overcome the stigma?
44:15I'd be dead by now if I didn't think so.
44:17I said, just give me my son back.
44:19The only person that needs to be at risk here is me.
44:22We've been trying to reach you now for several weeks.
44:25I think he's hung up.
44:27I'm Steven D'Souza.
44:28I'm Ioana Rumoliotis.
44:30I'm Mark Kelly.
44:31This. This.
44:32This is The Fifth Estate.
44:42This. This The Fifth Estate.
45:02This. This.
45:03Transcription by CastingWords
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