- 4 hours ago
Well Enough episode 11: Fitness influencers with Alice Liveing and Shakira AkabusiSource: The Independent
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00:00I was never a sporty kid growing up.
00:02You know, everyone wants a fast recovery.
00:04Everyone wants something to be instant.
00:06You know, we want eight-week ab programs.
00:08Everyone's an influencer.
00:09You know, my mum is because she posts her sourdough recipe
00:12and I'm like, oh, I'm going to use that.
00:13You know, like, everyone is.
00:19We live in a culture that is quite obsessed with self-optimisation.
00:23I wonder how you both arrived at the idea of fitness influencing
00:27and what that journey was like for you both.
00:30So taking it back to the start, maybe we can start with you, Alice.
00:33How did you come into this world?
00:34Well, firstly, I'm very honoured to have the label of a fitness influencer,
00:38but I am a personal trainer, was a personal trainer when I first started out
00:42and I really grounded my whole ethos and content in expertise.
00:48I trained as a professional dancer initially
00:50and had the most amazing experience doing that, went into a UK tour.
00:54And when I was on tour, I recognised, one, the necessity for a strong body,
00:59particularly within that industry.
01:01I think it's so important to have a robust body that, unfortunately,
01:04you know, you don't get days off and you don't get paid if you're off the show.
01:08So I really recognised the importance of that.
01:10So, you know, making sure that I was strong.
01:12And then, two, I recognised that I was working with some of the most talented people
01:16around me, but none of them were getting recalls from auditions.
01:19And I was like, oh, I might be unemployed for a bit.
01:21So what am I going to do?
01:22So I got my personal training qualification and really when I started posting on Instagram,
01:28it wasn't to be a fitness influencer because that didn't even exist at the time.
01:32So it was really that I just developed this absolute love and passion for helping women to be strong.
01:39I was never a sporty kid growing up.
01:42I, in fact, hated PE, hated every kind of like sport that I had a go at.
01:47And the only thing that really stuck with me was dance.
01:50But when I started strength training, it was like a light bulb just went on for me.
01:56It was like, this is my thing.
01:58To be a woman on the gym floor was the most, I found it, most like kind of cool thing.
02:03I was like, I'm doing this and I'm with the guys and I feel amazing.
02:06That was like my kind of my kind of origin story.
02:09And obviously, since then, I've gone on to do lots of other amazing things, which has been great.
02:12But really, I class myself now, even to this day, as a personal trainer, I still coach.
02:18I worked on the gym floor for years.
02:20I saw many clients and had the most amazing experience learning from those people.
02:24And I think that's where you really garner your expertise beyond just those who enjoy fitness and share their content as fitness influencers.
02:31So I always try and bring it back to that.
02:34Do you dislike the term influencer?
02:35Is that something that maybe feels incongruous with who you are now or is it that you don't really like it for another reason?
02:42I have no problem with it because that is essentially what we're doing, right?
02:45We influence in ways, but everyone's an influencer.
02:48You know, my mom is because she posts her Saturday recipe and I'm like, oh, I'm going to use that.
02:51You know, like everyone is.
02:53I think it's just like the way that we've evolved to call, you know, what we do online.
02:58And I don't have an issue with it per se.
03:01It's more that I just I sometimes think it can it can maybe like minimise, I guess, what I try and what I try and do.
03:11And I think because I've always tried to be someone who who has a, you know, a credible career within the fitness space.
03:19I always want to make sure that I try and say that I am also a personal trainer, too.
03:22Absolutely.
03:22I mean, experts are really, really important, aren't they?
03:25Especially in an era where lots of people can pretend to be an expert online.
03:28And we've seen the landscape shift so much on social media.
03:33Shakira, I wonder what your experience of it has been like as we've seen it change over the last 10 years.
03:38Yeah.
03:38So, gosh, the industry has changed and is continuing to change.
03:42And it's in some ways for the better.
03:43We're getting a lot more research, which I think is fantastic.
03:47In other ways, we're seeing trends and fads coming in and out so quickly, which I think is part of the issue with the influencer world or one part of the fitness industry.
04:00The fact that we have trends and really health is is should be baseline for everybody.
04:08Everyone should be able to access health and talk about health.
04:10Whereas now we have sort of like people that are into fitness and then people who be like, oh, I'm not into the gym or I'm not into running or whatever the thing is.
04:17But actually, everyone has health and should be able to access and and achieve good health for themselves.
04:22We have these kind of niche echo chambers, don't we, online where, you know, you could be into wellness, but that could mean weightlifting or it could mean sound baths.
04:32It's quite a broad spectrum, isn't it, with these kind of algorithmic niches.
04:37And I wanted to ask you, Alice, after several years of this incredible success, you decided to lift the lid and start talking about Instagram versus reality, misinformation, how everything you see might not actually be as accurate as you think.
04:50I wonder if you can pull on that thread and tell us a little bit more about that.
04:54When I think what the industry looks like now, you're absolutely right.
04:57It's a huge and vast space with lots of different little pockets within it.
05:03But, you know, back when I first started, that was pretty different.
05:07It was one homogenous like fitness space and everyone was kind of doing the same thing.
05:13And everyone predominantly had the number one goal, which was you exercised to lose weight.
05:19There wasn't the nuance that we have now where you exercise to be strong or you exercise for your mind.
05:24Like those conversations weren't happening in the way that they are now.
05:28And that meant that when I first started my fitness journey, I easily fell into that trap of life will be better if my body is smaller and therefore that's what I'm going to do.
05:37And I input the formula of diet, diet, diet, diet.
05:41My body shrunk.
05:42I got loads of praise.
05:44I took it all on board and was like, this is amazing.
05:46And so I just carried on without really realizing that what I was doing wasn't healthy.
05:52You know, I thought I was at my peak health, but actually, you know, over time I started to recognize, okay, I'm not having a regular menstrual cycle.
05:59I am really fatigued all the time.
06:02I've got terrible mood swings.
06:03I've got all of these things going on.
06:05And, oh, actually, is what I'm doing genuinely healthy or am I just striving for this body ideal but at the cost of everything else?
06:12And I started to just pull back the layers and unpick what I'd done for so long and realize, hmm, actually, not quite right.
06:21And that was a hard process because I'd built this massive platform of people that followed everything that I did and took every word as gospel and to then sort of go, oh, actually, guys, I got it wrong.
06:33Like, that was a hard moment and it's still something that I work to undo and overcome.
06:39But I'm really glad that I did it because I think it's so important and I think it was not just myself but a lot of people at the time, it was a real moment where we started to just question a little bit, you know, what are we doing here and is it thinness above all else or are we actually helping people to be healthier and what does health look like and what does that actually mean?
07:03What is healthy, you know?
07:04I wonder whether you both feel like you have a bit of a responsibility there because of how people consume that content and how, you know, how much you can influence someone and their lifestyle and their beliefs, especially if you're believing it yourself up to a point.
07:18Do you feel like you have that kind of responsibility when you post, Shakira?
07:21Without a doubt. I actually think as voices in fitness, whether we like the term fitness influencer or fitness expert, I actually think that the most important thing is that we are sharing the knowledge, but always with that understanding, exactly as you just said, Alice, that health is going to be unique to the individual.
07:38So whatever fitness training plan or food plan that you're following will not necessarily work for the person next to you.
07:45You know, we are three very completely different women and how we achieve health is going to be very, very unique.
07:52And I think that's where it becomes tricky being the expert because you have to try to give this information generally, but it's not general.
08:02So, you know, my take on that is always to share the knowledge, share the research, share the expertise, but, you know, making it very clear that this is this body of research and actually here's another body of research, you know, as it is with everything.
08:16So, yeah, without a doubt, that becomes a responsibility. And also, I think alongside sharing, you have like the expertise and then you have the reality and like what it is to be a human and what might be achievable for someone with a busy lifestyle or who works night shifts or, you know, how their sleep cycle is.
08:33And I think all of us, but certainly I have grown to really appreciate the reality of what might be achievable, which is not always, you know, the optimum and just bringing a human element to health and well-being.
08:51I hope you're finding Shakira and Alice's advice useful so far.
08:55Conversations like this are so important for helping us cut through the noise, understanding how we talk about fitness within the landscape of social media, and also how we relate to one another online.
09:04We can keep making episodes like this and having vital conversations with your support.
09:08So please consider subscribing and following along.
09:11A lot of my favourite fitness influencers, PTs, sports scientists, they receive awful comments sometimes about the way that they look.
09:20And I wonder how much do you feel that you should be a walking advert for what you're talking about?
09:27You know, there's a PT that I follow who gets it constantly because he's a working dad and he doesn't have a six pack, but yet his knowledge is unmatched.
09:37I wonder how much of that scrutiny you've both experienced and whether that has affected you.
09:42Yeah, I think that it's undoubtedly something that plays on my mind.
09:46I know that when my body changed, when I moved away from that restrictive eating phase and training and overtraining, I really found it hard because, like I said, you know, I was placed on this pedestal of being like the pinnacle of fitness.
10:03And when you step back from that or you come away from that, and I think it's more generally that so many of us, and I think particularly as women, see our best self as our thinnest self.
10:14You know, there's that deep correlation between I looked my best when I was at my smallest and anything else that comes away from that is quote unquote failure.
10:21I obviously don't see it like that now, but I think that there's so many women who do hold on to that.
10:27And I also think that whether we like it or not, fat phobia exists.
10:31And also, you know, we do have this really narrow perceived ideal of what fitness looks like.
10:41And so if anything veers outside of that, you know, I can understand why people go, oh, no, I probably won't listen to her.
10:47Like that person, she's got the six pack and she looks this way.
10:51And I think that it's not that that body or that body or this body is better or worse.
10:57It's just understanding that fitness looks different on everyone.
11:00And I think that the more that we can understand that there's such a broad spectrum of what fitness looks like, what fitness is, you know, one person might be able to run a marathon, but the other person might be able to deadlift 100 kilos.
11:13Who's fitter?
11:14So really, like it's such a broad spectrum of things that people are able to do and that qualify them to be fit that I think that you can't really compare like for like.
11:26And so what I've tried to do with my own journey, which is all I can kind of comment on is I've really tried to lean into rather than worrying about how my body looks, because that changes all the time and even month to month, you know, whatever.
11:42And I try and focus on what my body can do.
11:45You know, like I've always loved to strength train and I've always loved to pull my energy into physical goals, into things that I can really tangibly say, oh, that was an amazing achievement.
11:55And I remember when I got my first 10 pull-ups, I cried on the gym floor.
11:59Like it was that emotional for me, but it was like that, that for me is what it's all about.
12:03And does that mean that the part of my brain that looks in the mirror and sometimes goes, oh, I don't feel my best is switched off.
12:09No, like I have those days and I have those moments and there's definitely times where I feel triggered.
12:13I think particularly at the moment as well, we find ourselves at peak weight loss drug, like assisted kind of changes happening, particularly within the fitness space.
12:24I'm really noticing it and people selling themselves and their bodies and their programs whilst also, you know, potentially doing other things.
12:32That's another whole nother conversation.
12:35So, yeah, there are times when I feel particularly triggered and I think, oh, God, if I looked that way, would I be able to sell more, you know, downloads for my app?
12:43Or would I be able to like get more jobs if I was just like look like that person?
12:47And but I think that I'd be unhuman if I didn't have those triggers.
12:51It's just how I have to, you know, bring myself past them and overcome them and not let them change my behaviors.
12:57That's the most important thing.
12:58So, yeah, I think my favorite analogy is always to look at the Olympics and just look at every different type of body that you see there, each at peak fitness, but in so many different ways and remind ourselves that that's what we should be comparing ourselves to in terms of, you know, when it comes to our version of fitness rather than this one homogenous ideal that we all have as this like lean six pack, you know, muscle, muscly arms.
13:25Because, you know, not everyone's going to look like that.
13:27And that's important to remind ourselves of.
13:29Absolutely.
13:30I mean, the aesthetic versus what someone who's an Olympic weightlifter or an Olympic sprinter look like is vastly different, isn't it?
13:38And, you know, you mentioned that we're living in the age of a Zen pick.
13:41I wonder, has that increased pressure and scrutiny?
13:44Do you see that, Shakira, when you're when you're posting online?
13:47Yeah, I think I think what that has really thrown up for me is that everything needs to be quick.
13:53You know, everyone wants a fast recovery.
13:56Everyone wants something to be instant.
13:58You know, we want eight weeks ab programs or, you know, all of that kind of thing.
14:02And and actually, like in order to sustain results, to have real sustained health, that takes time.
14:11And and we've almost lost this ability to feel our health and we are relying on numbers.
14:18And we're like, why is that why is that number not changing?
14:21Why is, you know, I often speak about how, you know, when you see the number on a scale or people become obsessed with the number on a scale.
14:29Well, if you're going to lose body fat and replace it with muscle mass, the number could go up on the scale because muscle mass is denser than body fat.
14:36And so, you know, getting rid of needing this to hit these numbers and rather feel our health.
14:43And I think wanting things to happen fast, people don't think it happens fast enough.
14:49Whereas actually, for me, if I, you know, for whatever reason, haven't exercised for a week, I can feel that my body wants to move.
14:58And it's not to do with numbers, nothing to do with that.
15:01It is because I feel, you know, stressed emotionally.
15:05My physical fitness really impacts my mental well-being and vice versa.
15:08So I know when I need to go and do something and then I'll go out and whether it's a jog or I've gone to a jujitsu class or whatever it is that I'm doing, I will feel better.
15:18And and often we miss that bit before the but the numbers haven't changed.
15:22And if we could try to get people back there and understanding that there are other things to celebrate than just these targets that you're trying to hit and those targets, those numbers may come, they may not, you know, but taking that need out of fitness for things to always be delivered quickly and actually just enjoying.
15:41And also, I think enjoying fitness has really gone.
15:45It's like a chore.
15:46And even I look at my children, my 10 year old, I sat in a meeting the other day and they had his weekly schedule on the board and he does maths and English every day and he does PE once a week.
15:58And so already at that age, we are drilling in that this is extracurricular and my kids do loads of sport clubs, but there'll be kids that don't.
16:05And I'm like, we are making it something extra.
16:08We are not making it a necessity, whereas actually the body was built to move and we need that and making it something that is just a regular part of our lives, not this huge, big, you know, extra additional thing we have to get done on the to do list.
16:25So interesting that you say that.
16:26I've never really thought about that before.
16:27But at my school, it was kind of an adjunct to all of our other classes.
16:32Maybe that's why, because I had a similar experience to you, Alice, maybe that's why we didn't enjoy PE at school, because it was, you know, singular and rare and not something that was buried and showing us that it's fun to move around.
16:46But also, we never spoke about the benefits of it.
16:48It was like, you're either good at the sport and then you make the team and then you go off and do the team sport or you're not.
16:53And then you just get to like skive off and basically sit in the gym and eat with your friends, which is what I did every year.
16:57And I love the fact that now we're seeing all these big initiatives that are talking about, you know, making the changing room experience better for girls so that they don't stop doing sports or, you know, making sure that girls can enjoy sports in different ways.
17:10Because my experience was certainly feeling self-conscious, not wanting to do it, there not being enough variety and then just sort of stopping and then discovering, as you've said, fitness in later life and thinking, oh, this is great.
17:22I really enjoy this.
17:23This is so good for my mental health.
17:24And I think to the point that Shakira said about quick fixes, I think, you know, just to kind of broaden out that weight loss drug conversation a little bit, I have no issue with specific groups of people.
17:36And I think that it's such a nuanced conversation.
17:38And I don't want to sit here and demonize something that can be deeply beneficial for very specific groups of people.
17:44It's not like a, it's awful, never use it.
17:47Like, I think that the problem lies in the people who don't necessarily need it, who, and how do I quantify that?
17:58Let's see.
17:59People that find themselves in relatively small bodies who, like you said, they kind of want that.
18:04I just want to look good for my birthday.
18:06I'm going to take this.
18:08The body naturally shrinks because it's an appetite suppressant.
18:11And then it becomes, I look my best.
18:15I need to now stay here without any of the normal, if you were doing that in another way, behavioral changes that go alongside it.
18:23So the training, the dietary changes, the perhaps mental changes that need to go along with a physical change to sustain it.
18:31Um, I think that's the complexity that I really struggle with.
18:35And I think that it's thinness at all costs without recognizing that there are drastic implications of a sustained fat loss journey without other things to help that.
18:46So bone health, for example, is a really big one.
18:49We know that like the stats are astronomical in this country of women in particular who suffer with osteoporosis.
18:56That is a devastating stat, how many women will fall and break a bone in later life because we don't encourage women to strength train.
19:05And yet the reason why that's happening is because for so long, women have been told it's thinness at all costs.
19:11And I think that that's my issue is I am totally here to support any fat loss journey.
19:17But I think that it's got to be in collaboration with those behavioral changes that enables long-term sustainable health.
19:26It is those lifestyle changes, but it's also the other benefits that you get from being active that you don't get.
19:33For example, the mental, I mean, a huge reason as to why I stayed in the industry, not necessarily what got me in the industry, was the impact it had on my mental health.
19:40You know, movement exercise saved my life and I, to a degree, and I just, that you wouldn't get, you know, and there's so many other instinctive human things that we need from movement that we don't, we wouldn't get.
19:55For me, sitting here listening to you both speak in such a nuanced way about all these different aspects of why movement is important and how it intersects with different bodies, different journeys is great.
20:06But the fear is that a lot of people using social media to talk about fitness are not approaching it in this nuanced way.
20:13And we've got huge unsustainable trends that go viral.
20:16We've got the great lock-in, we've got 75 hard, we've got, you know, do this intense workout, eat nothing.
20:23I wonder how worried we should be about these kinds of challenges.
20:26I mean, it goes back to exactly what you said before, is that do we have a responsibility in the industry, which we do.
20:32And, you know, there are some wonderful things about social media, but one of the downsides is it makes it an unregulated industry.
20:41And there are people handing out, well, advice wouldn't even be the, you know, instruction that don't necessarily have.
20:48I mean, as Alice said, like, again, I came from a PT background, actually came from a musical theatre background as well, but then a personal training background.
20:55And one of the things I love about this industry is that you continue to learn.
21:00You know, every single time I work with a client, I will learn something new because a client will come with a different medical history or exercise history, whatever it is.
21:07And so you can constantly learn.
21:10There's always new research.
21:11And you need to continue learning to provide the most up-to-date support that you can.
21:18And when that doesn't happen and all you are doing is churning out eight-week AB programs, that is where it comes into unsustainable health and damaging, you know, patterns of behaviour that people will adopt for a short period of time and then stop that.
21:35And then there's another issue and, you know.
21:38That's the problem, isn't it?
21:38If you're doing it really intensely and it doesn't fit in with your lifestyle, it doesn't feel good, it's going to just fall off a cliff.
21:44You're just going to give up, aren't you?
21:45So this is, I think, another issue.
21:47So I'm always really blown away that we still don't just have that message of, like, you need balance across the board, you know.
21:58But it's because boring doesn't sell.
22:00Yeah, yeah, exactly.
22:01It doesn't sell.
22:01This is the thing that, like, it's my biggest frustration with social media is that the shock factor is what wins.
22:08Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
22:09And polarity and causing people to, you know, be, to feel something from your content.
22:15Like, the reason why certain fitness influencers do well from what I see is that they're willing to be like, man, I don't really care what the impact of my words or my actions is.
22:25I just want to get loads of followers.
22:27And so I'm going to be really shocking and really divisive.
22:30And then that's going to get me loads of engagement.
22:32And regardless of whether it's good or bad, it's like the numbers are going up so brilliant.
22:36And I think that the thing that I learned really early on from my brilliant mentor, who I absolutely love and adore, is boring stuff and the basics aren't that sexy.
22:45And so they're really hard to drive home.
22:48And I lay my head on my pillow at night, knowing in good faith that I'd way rather be basics and boring, knowing that that is what works.
23:01And that's like what is really true to my own values, rather than being that kind of really inflammatory voice online that just gets the shock factor and tries to jump from trend to trend to trend in order to just try and get people really engaged in what I'm doing.
23:16And I think that that's the trade-off that we have to have now.
23:19Unfortunately, that is the world we live in.
23:22And it's sad, but I just, I'd way rather be beige when it comes to fitness.
23:29I lie my head on the pillow at night and I literally have the thought where I'm like, how can I make posture sound interesting?
23:37Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly.
23:38To me, it is interesting.
23:40I know, but the word could not be more boring, like, you know, posture.
23:43I'm like, how do I think that?
23:45But not everyone is a nerd like me.
23:46And there are some people who do it really well, like there are some amazing coaches online, but it's frustrating when, like, for example, I came across something today and you just think, like, this person has a huge following and they're peddling gimmicks.
24:06And it's really hard to bite your tongue and go, okay, just, like, ignore and just do your thing.
24:12But, like, yeah, it's tough.
24:14But I wonder what you both make of this counterpoint that in the old days, we didn't really have access to a lot of fitness content.
24:22And it was go to the gym, get a PT, or just kind of make it up as you go along.
24:27Social media has also really democratized fitness content.
24:30And it has also meant that, for example, I was able to find you, Alice, years ago and start following you.
24:36And more recently I was able to find you, Shakira, and think, oh, this is, this makes sense, this is good stuff.
24:42But I wouldn't have had that opportunity before because we didn't have these platforms.
24:47So what do you think about the idea that, yes, we need experts, we need nuance, but also, you know, it's probably quite nice that fitness is cool and it's everywhere.
24:57I completely agree.
24:59And, like, yeah, I think that we should always be supportive of the fact that if people find and connect with someone that speaks to them when it comes to their fitness journey, like, I'd way rather someone move, even if it's in a gimmicky way, that they're moving their bodies.
25:11I'd way rather someone do that than not at all.
25:14But I just think that, like, the point where I sort of draw the line is that you're dealing with people's health and that is, that there's the propensity for damage to be done.
25:26You know, I know that firsthand because I was part of that message early on.
25:30And so I think that, yes, great that we have so much access, so much content, so much availability.
25:36It's really opened up the space in a way that it never has been before.
25:42But to what expense, like, you know, where do we draw the line?
25:46Where do we have to suddenly say, actually, no, we're really affecting people's health, their well-being, their bodies, and there needs to be some form of regulation.
25:54If you look at any other health industry in the world, there is regulation pretty much across the board.
25:59Nutritionists, I know that obviously there's a little bit of complexity within the regulation.
26:04Not a protected term, yeah.
26:05Yeah, regulation of that.
26:06But generally, if you're a registered nutritionist, great, there's regulation within that.
26:12Physios, doctors, you know, yes, okay, social media has caused, like, some friction within those spaces in terms of, like, credibility and regulation.
26:22But I think the fitness industry has nothing, zero.
26:27And yet we are part of that world and part of that conversation and still have a lot of power over people's, like, health outcomes and their bodies and their well-being.
26:35So I do think that it's great, but it's also not without potential damage.
26:43And I think that's a difficult thing to have to try and, like, pick apart and work out how we overcome that.
26:49For the independent, we always see the same pieces doing well.
26:53And it's always the best moves for longevity, the best moves for bone health, the best moves for building muscle.
27:00And that's actually really heartening to me.
27:02I like to see that kind of thing doing well.
27:04I'm surprised. And me too. I'm happy to hear that.
27:06Because it kind of seems like the opposite of social media, which is bust the belly fat, you know, get six-pack abs in two weeks.
27:12So I'm quite pleased that that seems to be the direction that we're going in.
27:16But I also wonder whether it's the age of the people that tend to be reading those pieces.
27:20Maybe it's not teenagers who, you know, are looking at, you know, naming no names, but certain influencers or celebrities that might be using steroids who might have unrealistic body types because they're doing, you know, everything from having a personal trainer to having personal meal plans to also using those kinds of drugs and supplements and whatever else.
27:41I wonder how much you think there's a tension between people that are working out for longevity, so they feel good and they extend lifespan and health span, and people that are working out for aesthetics.
27:51And whether or not there is an age gap there, and whether we're looking at people who are probably more vulnerable because they're younger.
27:59I was saying to someone the other day that the gym that I go to is often full of teenagers after school hours because they seem to be obsessed with getting a particular body type.
28:09So is that still really an issue for younger people, I wonder?
28:12I think there is a huge, there is a, that is just such a great point and such a huge conversation, particularly, I think, for young girls.
28:21I'm so glad to hear that longevity is something that you're seeing people be interested in.
28:26But I was at a conference the other day and this exact discussion came up where we were like, how do you get 20-year-old women to care about their longevity health?
28:38Because that is not necessarily the main priority, and you just used that term, or, you know, fitness is cool.
28:44You know, a version of fitness might be cool, but actually, bone density and, you know, longevity health, I don't necessarily think is something that the 20-year-olds are.
28:54Not the same as looking cool in your active website.
28:55No, exactly, exactly.
28:57And there is a huge thing, I mean, I'm a mum of a daughter, and I think to myself, how do I, when she gets to that age, how do I get her to understand how,
29:08her exercise journey at, you know, 16, 20, will impact her perimenopause, and how do we get that message across?
29:18I actually don't have the answer.
29:20The thing that I would say is I don't necessarily think it's a bad thing, right?
29:24And I'll tell you why.
29:26I have worked with many clients over the years, and the thing that gets them in my sessions training with me is they want to change the way they look.
29:34It's the gateway drug to training.
29:36And it's never too late, right?
29:38And that's the reality, is often the thing that gets someone to sign up with a personal trainer still, even though, yes, we're starting to see these little changes, is I want to look differently.
29:48However, the responsibility comes when it's like, great, you're in the gym, you're moving, how can we get that to be then a sustainable, well-rounded, long-term fitness journey?
30:02I don't know.
30:02And keep you involved so that, yes, okay, it was looks that got you in there, but then it's, I feel amazing, my mental health is better, my energy is better, I can pick up my kids or play with my grandchildren.
30:14Those are the things that keep people engaged in the process.
30:17I don't even think it's bad if you have aesthetic goals for the rest of the time.
30:21Absolutely.
30:22It's not so much about whether aesthetic goals are what get you in the door, it's more, I think for me, the struggle is that from what I see, when people, particularly younger generations, that is where they are looking to trends.
30:38They are not walking in the door of a qualified personal trainer and asking them, right, what should I be doing, you know, should I lift this three times a week and do this once a week and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
30:47They're not.
30:48They're getting onto social media where, as you said, it's unregulated, it's unfiltered.
30:52And it's like, have you seen this thing where you don't eat any carbs and you, you know, do a high intensity workout for three hours a day?
31:00You know, it's like, and that's where that negative mentality, in my opinion, gets in and could potentially really impact your longevity health in a negative way.
31:11Yeah, I agree.
31:11It's like, how do you, and part of that responsibility comes from us as trainers, part of the responsibility sits with the platform.
31:19I mean, that's a huge, another whole conversation, you know, part of it comes with age.
31:24I think for me, like, I have just loved my 30s.
31:29I have loved my 30s.
31:32And getting to that place where you are comfortable within your own skin and I don't need to be perfect to be proud of myself.
31:38You know, I can just be content with who I am.
31:41So maybe part of it is just growing up.
31:43I also think the only other, I completely agree with you on everything you said.
31:46The only other thing that I think has shifted, which I've really noticed and which I think has changed the dial for young women in a way that I've never seen before, is the rise of female sports stars in a way that they've never been platformed before.
31:58If we look at, like, the Lionesses in rugby, who have just competed in the World Cup.
32:02You know, when it comes to, like, role models, I grew up with Serena Williams being my absolute idol.
32:07Like, every interview I've ever done, she was always the person that I looked up to.
32:10But those people were a bit more few and far between.
32:13And I think now there are so many more accessible sports stars who young girls can look up to.
32:19I think you could actually be bang on because I grew up around the Sally Gunnels.
32:24And, you know, my dad was an athlete.
32:26So I grew up around the Great British Olympic team and athletic team.
32:30And I have always had a really great relationship.
32:35You know, fitness sports has never been something where it hasn't felt like something I could achieve or it hasn't felt like a natural part of life.
32:43And so I actually think, you know, maybe that did play a huge role.
32:47And social media has brought us closer to those people.
32:49Like, I follow a lot of athletes.
32:50Now I'm seeing that they're, you know, their whole team is made up of very, you know, qualified people who are giving them advice on their training.
32:59And they're taking loads of rest days.
33:00And they're periodizing their training.
33:02And they're, you know, eating loads.
33:04I think I follow Keely Hodgkinson.
33:06And, like, she shows, like, how much she's eating alongside her training.
33:09That's so important for girls to see.
33:11And I think it's those little things.
33:12We have more accessibility to them.
33:14And they are more platformed in a way than they ever have been.
33:16And I think that's really, really positive for girls.
33:19And as you said, there are so many more sports available.
33:22I mean, I now do jiu-jitsu, which is still very male-dominated.
33:25I've really wanted to get into jiu-jitsu for a long time.
33:28Oh, it's huge now, isn't it?
33:28Yeah, yeah, yeah.
33:29But I want to do it.
33:30And it is still very male-dominated.
33:32But there are more and more women coming into the classes all the time.
33:35And it's just great.
33:35You know, we have different options to, you know, move our body in different ways.
33:38And it can be a fun challenge.
33:40It's very cool.
33:41But to your point as well, you're right.
33:43There are so many influences and role models now that I don't remember having before.
33:47And they are doing mainstream advertising campaigns.
33:51They're on billboards.
33:51They're on our TVs.
33:53But I want to go back to your point, Shakira, about your upbringing and being close to those kinds of people.
33:58Because now we obviously feel like we can follow them on social media and we can learn from them.
34:03But you actually had direct access to role models in sports, didn't you?
34:06Yes, yeah, yeah.
34:08Well, yeah.
34:08My dad was an Olympic athlete.
34:10My mum was a personal trainer.
34:12And she now specializes in injury rehabilitation.
34:14So working with people who have hip replacements or whatever.
34:17So, yes, I grew up around that.
34:19And I, without a doubt, like one of the greatest things that my parents were able to provide for me was the fact that sports was just a natural part of life.
34:30It wasn't that extracurricular that I spoke about before.
34:33It was just, you know, it's just always been, it's just always been there.
34:36And not even with a high amount of pressure.
34:39I was never pressured into doing sports.
34:40I just, it was fun and I enjoyed it.
34:42And I saw people do it and I was like, this is what people do.
34:45And so it just became a natural part of life.
34:47I think now as I've grown up and I now have four children and I have experienced what it's like to not have so much freedom with your schedule and not have to fit it in.
34:57But again, I think when you really want to do something, you know, for me, it's such a part of who I am that it became, you know, I have always really prioritized making it a part of my schedule.
35:09And, yes, I've been able to sustain it.
35:13And for me, as I said, it is such a part of who I am that my mental health would be far worse off if I wasn't able to regularly move my body in some way.
35:23And I suppose it's helped you to have that really healthy, great relationship with the body and with movement that I think maybe is missing for some people because all they have is sometimes exposure to these quite toxic messages about body's exercise.
35:38I mean, I'm guilty of following a particular fitness influencer one week and thinking, wow, you're cool.
35:44And then in a couple of weeks, I'll open Instagram and I'll see the pop up and think, who is that?
35:50And oh, my gosh, I feel like a potato today.
35:52I don't want to look at that.
35:53And then I'll just unfollow them straight away.
35:56That isn't a sustainable or healthy relationship with someone who's going to teach me how to do what's right for my body.
36:02And I think that a lot of us fall into that trap.
36:05I would say that's probably something that I experience.
36:08You know, I share my expertise.
36:09I specialize in women's health, pre-impersonating and perimenopause, but I have always been really active and I have a naturally athletic physique.
36:17And genetics does play a part in our health and our exercise and how we look.
36:21I do get that sometimes where people will be like, yeah, but it's really easy for you.
36:25And it's difficult because I feel like there's so much deeper messaging that it is that I want to portray that is not just you're going to look like this.
36:33There is so much more that comes with sustaining a healthy lifestyle and so many other things that it helps me to do.
36:40And having aesthetic goals is fine.
36:43And, you know, but I think, again, as you just said, not just looking at what someone looks like and judging them based on that and actually understanding that health can come in many forms.
36:55But what else are these people saying?
36:57What expertise have they got?
36:58So I really want to make this practical for our listeners.
37:01So I would love to know if someone's at the start of their journey, say we're looking at someone who's perimenopausal, never really exercised, doesn't know where to start, but is starting to get concerned about things like longevity, bone density, or even just, you know, being able to carry shopping and feel more capable in their body.
37:17What would your advice be on where to start?
37:20So the first thing I would say to absolute bare beginnings, find something you enjoy.
37:26There is nothing worse than having to do something you don't want to do.
37:29So movement, as you said earlier, Alice, movement in any way, initially, fantastic.
37:35Just get moving, go for a walk, go to a dance class, whatever it is that you want to do.
37:40So that would be the number one.
37:42And then I would say what we do, what we do need to, what we can't shy away from really is that we need to increase the challenge.
37:49We need the progressive overload.
37:50We can't.
37:51The human body is so clever.
37:53And, you know, it's constantly trying to achieve a task with the minimum amount of energy expenditure.
37:57So if you do 10 squats and the next day you do them again, your body is always learning how to do those 10 squats more efficiently.
38:04So we need to progress the challenge to continue seeing those results.
38:08I wonder if you can explain what progressive overload is just for anyone that's not familiar with the term.
38:12Yeah.
38:12Well, progressive overload is increasing the challenge.
38:15And we can do that by increasing repetitions, increasing the weight, increasing, sometimes it's changing angle or changing speed.
38:24There can be so many different ways.
38:25But essentially, we want to increase the challenge that we're placing on our body to continue seeing results.
38:32And then specifically for perimenopause, we want to engage with resistance training, strength training.
38:40Initially, that might be body weight movements if you're just starting out and then starting to bring in other forms of resistance and ultimately moving to weight training.
38:49The, you know, strength training and weight bearing exercises, which is where you're up on your feet.
38:55Anything where we're standing up on our feet places our skeletal frame under stress.
39:02And that's how we're going to start to lay down more bone tissue.
39:05So weight bearing exercises and then engaging in resistance.
39:09And again, resistance training, not only are we going to build on our lean muscle mass, but as we do that, we are also getting our muscles, the ligaments and the tendons are pulling on our bone.
39:19And again, we're going to be laying down more bone tissue.
39:21So those would be kind of the starting points.
39:23And then I wish I could make this sound more interesting for you.
39:27But posture, it sounds so boring, but I would say with the clients that I see, particularly those that are postmenopause really or perimenopause that haven't really given much thought, it often comes down to posture.
39:43And this can be anything from, you know, bladder weakness to lower back pain to knee pain, getting good posture along that line.
39:53You know, it can have a ripple effect to other areas of the body.
39:55So you might be feeling pain in your knee, but it actually sparks from your pelvis.
39:59So really looking at posture.
40:01And we don't have an hour to talk about optimum posture and what that means.
40:05Maybe we should come back and we should do that.
40:06Do an hour long session on posture.
40:08It'll be really interesting.
40:09Top hitter.
40:10This is important stuff, but you say that, but you know what?
40:12We actually have a lot of interest in terms of posture, because I do think with this kind of self-optimization boom, you've got all these aspects that people are drilling down really, really minutely on.
40:24And they're things that ultimately, I'm going to say it, make us all look better, make us look more attractive, you know, and that's what's important to a lot of people.
40:33It will help us to move better and move, I can't say pain-free, but move well, move without pain.
40:39And then I think my final tip, which again, it often goes sort of like untouched when we talk a lot about muscles and bones.
40:49Well, that conversation is happening more and more, but actually mobility within our joints as well, which is slightly different to stretching.
40:55We're not just lengthening a muscle.
40:58We are looking for that mobility, that controlled mobility within a joint.
41:02And, you know, if there's anything people take away when it comes to mobility, your joints roughly follow a pattern in the body.
41:08So you'll have like a more mobile joint, like your ankles that go all the way around.
41:11And then your knee joint should be a little, have a little bit more stability, you know, just goes back and forth.
41:15Again, your pelvis should be more mobile.
41:17So if we have a joint that should be mobile, but we're holding tension and we've got tight hip flexors, again, it can impact your, your other joints, you know, your correlating joints.
41:27Your lower back should be more supportive and the lumbar spine.
41:30But if, again, if we, if, if that's overly mobile, then we might experience, you know, aches and pains in other areas.
41:37So it's an endless question, but those are the places that I would start.
41:44Brilliant.
41:44I mean, that's a lot for someone to get started with.
41:46That's a lot to get started with.
41:47It's great advice.
41:48Really, really good.
41:50And I also, I mean, people come at exercise at different times, different ages, different stages.
41:55I wonder, Alice, maybe you could give us some pointers on maybe if you're in your 20s and you didn't like PE, you didn't enjoy exercising, you haven't found something that works for you.
42:05Where do you start then if you were, you know, a little earlier in the journey?
42:08I think it's always a hard one because, yeah, starting a fitness journey for anyone can feel like a bit of an Everest to climb.
42:16That first session where you're like walking into the gym and you're like, right, I'm going to do this.
42:20Then you sort of wander around.
42:20You're like, what next?
42:22You know, it's really hard.
42:25And I completely understand that, you know, we've spoken a lot today about strength training.
42:29The barrier to entry with strength training is that little bit higher.
42:31It's not as easy as lacing up your trainers and just going out for a run.
42:34So I do understand that there is a little bit of complexity that comes to starting a strength training journey.
42:39So I think the thing that I always say to people is we've we've spoken a lot about the negative sides of social media and the online world today, which which is relevant.
42:48But I also think that there are so many positives in those spaces.
42:52And I think, for example, YouTube is a brilliant free resource.
42:56And I think that the thing that I really noticed with younger girls is it's it's getting their confidence up to then go onto the gym floor.
43:03So often people don't have the confidence to day one, step onto the gym floor and go, I know exactly what I'm doing.
43:08So is it that you're finding someone on YouTube who you really connect with that's from home, maybe, or that you can take to the corner of the gym and just pop the phone up and do a workout there, use a couple of dumbbells, maybe get your confidence up.
43:22We know that movement competency is huge when it comes to strength training.
43:25So is it just that you're nailing the basic movements to start with for a couple of weeks and you're getting those into your body, you're feeling more strong, you're feeling more capable?
43:33You're working on specific movement patterns over and over again.
43:36And then suddenly you start to develop that confidence where you're like, OK, now I kind of know my space.
43:40I know roughly the movements.
43:42Can I start to add in something a little bit more exciting or using that or taking that person from Instagram that I've seen doing that and maybe giving that a go this week?
43:49And it's and it's building and layering it in that way.
43:52Nobody, none of us sat here, were an expert on day one and walked into the gym, picked up a barbell and went, yeah, cool, got it.
43:59But we all have to start somewhere.
44:01And I think that it's knowing that it's OK to be a beginner and get things wrong as well.
44:04Make mistakes and obviously try and be as safe as possible when you're doing it.
44:08So there are a couple of really basic things that I always say to people, and that's get the right pair of shoes.
44:13Really, really important.
44:14If you're training in a public gym where you can't be barefoot because barefoot is great, but not necessarily always accessible.
44:20A solid, flat-soled pair of trainers that's really stable.
44:24Please don't be wearing your running trainers to go and lift weights because it's just not stable enough and you might hurt yourself.
44:31And then just wear something that you feel really comfortable in.
44:34Like, don't feel that you have to have the latest gym outfit.
44:36Like, yes, it's nice to, like, have a matching gym set, but if your dad's old T-shirt and a pair of running shorts is what you feel best in, wear that.
44:43And then just start to feel familiar and comfortable in whatever space you're choosing to exercise in.
44:48Go regularly.
44:49Know that it's probably not going to be easy for the first few sessions, but you will get there.
44:54And as Shakira said, and I completely agree with this, and I'll end on this, you've got to enjoy it.
44:59So if you start something and it's not for you, that's OK.
45:02There are so many ways to move your body.
45:04Find one that works for you and just go with the fact that that's going to be the most sustainable form of exercise for you.
45:10Great advice because it does take time, doesn't it?
45:12I remember my first experience of walking into a gym, seeing women that looked really strong, you know, lifting heavy and thinking, well, that's not going to be me.
45:23And just feeling like I should turn around and walk back out.
45:26But actually, starting with smaller weights meant that with that progressive overload, you know, you're able to move up.
45:31Doesn't happen overnight, but certainly it can happen.
45:35And it can happen in a really, really nice, natural way that feels good for you.
45:39And I do agree.
45:40I think finding the right people to follow is really, really important, which is why this conversation about influencers, I think, is really key, because it's about knowing who you trust, knowing which experts to follow, who you can put your faith in when it comes to your body.
45:53Because like you said at the beginning, Shakira, health is everybody has got health.
45:57Everyone has got a body and everyone deserves to feel good in it.
46:00I always end these episodes by asking for my guests' one wellness, non-negotiable.
46:07Now, I know it's really hard to pick just one, but this will be your one thing that you can't live without, something that makes you feel good, something that makes you feel well.
46:15I think mine would be lift weights at least once a week, and particularly if you're a woman.
46:20I think there are so many other things I could say here, but I think fundamentally for our long-term health, there is undoubtedly vast amounts of research to support the benefits of strength training for women.
46:32And I think that that would be my number one.
46:34I am not surprised to hear that, and I'm happy to hear it, because I do agree with you, and I think that, you know, in terms of a wellness non-negotiable that maybe lots of people weren't thinking about five, ten years ago, it's huge now, and a really, really important one.
46:49What about you, Shakira?
46:50I also would say that it's something that I would not do as well without is community, and you can get a really great fitness community, and it can help to get you motivated on days where you don't want to get out of bed.
47:04But then sharing stories and just that feeling of belonging, like to me, my friends, my family, that community is just so integral to my health, and I think there's been lots of studies on how our relationships, every aspect of health that you look at when you look at relationships, what a huge impact that can have on your well-being, your confidence, your mental health, you know, your energy levels.
47:32So alongside the exercise, the nutrition, and of course, loving my children, would be just community in general.
47:41You know, that's close to you, but also when we're talking about health and fitness, finding a community that you, A, trust and is reliable, and B, that motivates you.
47:52Because some people might be motivated by the 20-year-old fitness influencer from America who's just talking about her program, which is great, but finding something that motivates you, and that is, I guess, the blessing of social media, because it has allowed people to form communities of people across the globe that they otherwise wouldn't.
48:10So that would be it for me.
48:12I think that's great advice.
48:13And, you know, to your point, the happiest places in the world where people live the longest, community is one of the key aspects of why they are having a good time and living a long time.
48:24So that is brilliant advice.
48:26And I would urge anyone to look for that community, because it can be found anywhere, whether you go to a run club, whether you go to the gym, you know, whether you decide to work out with friends at home, that community is really important.
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