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00:00Grandmothers are safe sweet loving the ones you trust most Lois Reese Midwestern grandmother to
00:12five kids seem no different but what if this granny wasn't trustworthy at all what if behind
00:19that smile was not just a con artist but a killer 9-1-1 call came into the Lee County
00:29Sheriff's Office from Marina Village at Snug Harbor an innocent woman is found murdered while on
00:35vacation in Florida the girl I know there said my god Barb didn't you know Pam was murdered it
00:42just made me sick the victim is captured on camera with a suspect that looks just like her it showed
00:49her with like a female companion or a female friend they're walking through the parking lot
00:55together going up the elevator walking down the hallway into the unit together and from that
01:00point forward I never saw the victim on surveillance footage again I never would have thought that this
01:10is who my suspect was in this case we believe that she was on the run our grandmas are the people that
01:17you can go to and be comforted when bad things happen she was fat for her grandchildren her
01:25grandchildren and my children were the same age and we took them everywhere together you would never in
01:30a million years think that she could commit a crime like that my biggest fear was I don't want her to do this again
01:47I manage the building and uh there's a dead body in one of the units Lee County investigators rushed to
02:09the condo complex to respond to the incident initially when I made entrance into the unit I did smell
02:16something that was foul I also noticed that the air in the unit was turned down like it was cold in
02:24there I noticed then at the door that separates the bedroom from the master bathroom was closed but
02:31at the base of the door there appeared to be towels jammed at the bottom of it that may be to keep a
02:37smell in or out or to muffle the sound of something and once we go in we find that that's where the
02:43body was the decedent was on the floor feet towards the door a towel was draped over the decedent's arms
02:57and head area we were unable to see any wounds on her it was hard to see if there was any kind of
03:03struggle I was still up in the air with it when the medical examiner arrives they start lifting the
03:10sheets and towels off you could tell that it was a female there is a pillow near the body with what
03:18appears to be a gunshot hole through it there's some soot on the outside of it that was possibly
03:23used to muffle the sound of a gun being shot at close range the female was older I would say 60s we
03:33saw a probable bullet wound we then realized that it turned into a full-blown homicide that she had
03:39been killed at that point we did not locate a weapon there was no indication of a struggle there
03:50was no defensive marks as far as we could tell on the decedent it looked as if she had just been taken
03:55by surprise marina village at snug harbors the apartment condo complex it's used as timeshare so
04:04it does kind of have a transient occupancy a little bit we got the name from the complainant of hey this
04:12lady is the one who checked in we checked her driver's license she had checked in as Pamela Hutchinson
04:18but no one felt comfortable enough at that time at least to make a positive identification because
04:25of the decomp to the face and the bloating and everything I knew I had an elderly female she was
04:31supposedly there by herself I'm thinking myself maybe someone followed her home tried to rob her it turned
04:37bad I just didn't know at that point with their investigation stretching through the night detectives
04:45hope an autopsy can give them some new information they decide to wait to tell the family until they
04:52can be sure that the body is Pam Hutchinson it was a small caliber round that killed our victim
04:59possibly a 22 caliber we were able to identify her through dental records the victim in the bathroom was
05:08identified as Pamela Hutchinson so we start making phone calls to next of Kim
05:22I was at a local bar restaurant when Pam's cousin-in-law called me to inform me that Pam had been murdered
05:30I was devastated I mean you hear about things like that happening every day to somebody else but you
05:41don't think that can ever happen to somebody you know I live in Bradenton Florida and I met Pam
05:52Hutchinson in late 2015 she was somebody that would strike up a conversation with anybody Pam kind of
06:04had the southern hospitality I felt like he knew her all my life she was raised down south and her
06:15family used to have a peanut stand where they'd sell peanuts along the road she was from Virginia Beach
06:22her father died when she was really young but she was really close to her mother then the mother
06:28passed away not too long before she came down here seeking a new life after she broke up with her husband
06:37while I was searching for a place to purchase I ran into Pam and she said why don't you move in
06:45with me for a while from the start we just clicked we like the same things we like to bake we both
06:50believed in God we both jabbered a lot the detectives reach out to Pam's family and friends to pick up the
07:01details about Pam's trip to Fort Myers Beach so I was living with Pam at the time she decided that she
07:10was going to go to Sanibel Island at Fort Myers Beach she had come down to the area to be with a
07:16friend whose husband had passed and they were going to scatter his ashes on Sanibel Island which is an
07:22island in the area we did text when she arrived at Fort Myers Beach yeah I made it okay good go have
07:30a good time just relax life is short and then I didn't hear from her after that
07:45I owned a timeshare at Marina Village for many years so I called Marina Village at Snug Harbor and I
07:53said what's going on the girl I know there said my god Barb didn't you know Pam was murdered and I'm just
08:01like what it just made me sick I never recalled Pam having any enemies that would ever consider doing her
08:17harm she was actually what I considered my best friend at the time it's still hard to get over you know
08:29word of Pam's death gets around fast but her poor family doesn't have any idea who might have done it
08:43the Fort Myers detectives keep digging hoping they can find anything that'll point to who's behind this
08:50awful crime the Lee County Sheriff's Office knew that Pam had come down on vacation to help a friend of
08:57hers whose husband had just died shortly before at that point they didn't really have a suspect they
09:05started to look at the surveillance videos to try and see who maybe had been with Pamela at that point
09:11when we were collecting all the evidence and the unit we found a receipt for the smoke and oyster
09:17brewery it had a date and time stamp on it we sent detectives to the restaurant and they collected the
09:23video for that timestamp we also made contact with the complainant from marina village at snug harbor and
09:31asked to review her surveillance footage we were starting to go back to the day that our victim
09:40arrived and watching her come in we see what kind of car she was driving a white Acura four-door vehicle
09:46the footage shows that Pam is alone at the condo from April 3rd to April 5th but what about after
10:12that detectives decide to take a gander at the footage they collected from April 6th at the smoking
10:19oyster brewery and that's where we see footage of our victim but it also showed her with like a female
10:28companion or a female friend the female was very talkative very jovial like easy to get along with she
10:36was talking to everybody that got close to her so after finishing their meal at smoking oyster brewery
10:43they both left the area together so did Pam go back to her condo with her new friend the investigators
10:52check the footage from the complex to find out about an hour after both of them were seen walking to the
11:01room together they're walking through the parking lot together going up the elevator walking down the
11:07hallway into the unit together a short time later the female which she entered with came out kind of
11:16looking distraught so it was it was concerning at that point it looked as if she was almost talking to
11:23herself she was walking around she was leaning over again it looked like she was upset emotionally and
11:29from that point forward I never saw the victim on surveillance footage again at that point then we knew who
11:37we were looking for a white female I would guesstimate between 50 60 years of age I was surprised I'm
11:45thinking wow this reminds me of my grandma
11:52her facade was probably of an innocent lady you can tell something was changing in her
11:58she had a love for the casinos a love for gambling it has become this odd crime spree of the most
12:08unassuming-looking grandmother I was concerned about her trying to go to Mexico I was like this is a
12:16problem when poor Pam Hutchinson is discovered shot to death in her Fort Myers rental investigators
12:32sift through hours and hours of footage looking for one unusual suspect in particular
12:37I never would have thought that this is who my suspect was in this case she had blonde hair she
12:44wasn't very tall maybe five five five six and those again are characteristics that were somewhat similar
12:51to our victim at that point I wasn't sure if it was a friend but to me it appeared as if she had just met
12:59this person it was my belief that the homicide probably had occurred on April 5th just before we
13:08saw the suspect exit the room and appear distraught on surveillance footage on April 6 2018 I no longer see
13:18our victim coming and going I only see our suspect coming and going from the victims room it appeared as
13:24as if she took a lot of evidence from the unit itself she was also adorning herself in the victims clothing
13:32specifically a hat I remember in sunglasses and it was almost as if she was assuming her identity and we see her
13:42driving away in our victims car at this point once we saw her leave with the victims vehicle and we no longer had her on any
13:51surveillance footage we believe that she was on the run she had a head start from us from the time we
13:59last saw the suspect on surveillance to the time of the 911 call was about four days we got to figure out
14:07where she's at we start looking for our victims car we're putting license plates into our license plate
14:15reader system flagging them as a homicide suspect at that point we knew of no witnesses we did an extensive
14:23canvas of everyone that was in the building some had already come and gone again this is spring break
14:33but there's no obvious way that Pam and the gray-haired mystery lady would know each other the only clue the
14:40guys have to work with are the two cars caught on tape at the crime scene Pam's Acura and the other
14:47ladies Escalade they check recent police reports to see if anything comes up before we found the body
14:55our units on the beach were provided information to be on the lookout for Lois Reese from Minnesota
15:01because they believe that she had been in the area in her white Escalade Lois Reese had a warrant for her
15:08arrest out of Blooming Prairie Minnesota in reference to a fraud case now there's an aha moment their
15:16suspect was in a white Escalade too could it be the same one Lois Reese was driving it was just let me
15:24just take a chance let me just see I called the local jurisdiction up in Minnesota but this one just
15:32kind of took me by surprise they had a murder investigation on going there Lois Reese was a
15:39person of interest at the time they didn't have charges on her for murder but her husband David
15:44Reese was killed so they were looking for her the Dodge County Sheriff's Office had mentioned that they
15:50had secured an arrest warrant for her because she withdrew approximately eleven thousand dollars from
15:55David Reese's bank account after she had fled the area even though the police in Minnesota figured that Lois Reese
16:03had flipped from kindly grandmother to husband killer they could only get a warrant for the money she stole from his
16:10account I asked them for a photo of the person of interest that they had up in Minnesota and I took that photo I
16:17printed it off and as I'm watching the surveillance footage I put it right up next to the screen and I paused it and I said that's her
16:25I spoke specifically and directly with the detectives involved with the murder
16:32investigation and the grand theft investigation and they relayed the scene that they encountered in
16:38that area they told me they received a call to do a welfare check on David Reese
16:44Dave's employees Dave's employees had not seen him for almost two weeks and Lois had been telling them that
16:58he was ill on the 22nd they saw Lois driving out in Dave's white Escalade the employees said something's up
17:11so they called the local police to come and do a welfare check
17:17blooming prairie police went to the house knocked couldn't get anybody walked around found an open
17:23window in the back which is unusual because it's March in Minnesota and they saw a body through the
17:32window that was open they were able to make entry get inside the house made their way to the master
17:40bath and the door was closed things up against the door they found who they believed to be David Reese in
17:48the bathroom it did not look like the body had moved it looked like Dave laid where he fell after he got shot
17:57twice again covered with a towel according to the Dodge County Sheriff's Office David had been dead for at
18:05least a few days and at that point the lowest was nowhere to be found it sounded very similar to what
18:16I had found in the unit down here the victim up in Minnesota was killed in the bathroom it appeared
18:23to be a small caliber round and then also a towel was draped over the decedent up in Minnesota same
18:29as down here the bathroom window was open to again letting cold air again similar to Lois dropping the air in
18:37the unit she turned the air down try to keep the smell out I was shocked I would have never just thought
18:46walking down the street oh that lady's responsible for the deaths of two people everything we put out
18:51at that point was she's wanted and she's considered armed and dangerous we needed to find her as soon
18:58as possible because my biggest fear was I don't want her to do this again investigators in Florida find out
19:13that their suspect Lois Reese likely shot her poor husband in Minnesota two weeks before she did the
19:20same thing to Pam Hutchinson they put the word out all over the state to be on the lookout for Lois and
19:26then pry into her past to see if they can figure out why she did it Lois and Dave moved to Blooming Prairie
19:36about 2005 or six somewhere in there Dave and Lois were really a friendly couple everybody loved to
19:44hang out with them and laugh with them Lois was born and raised in Rochester Minnesota Dave also grew up in
19:53Rochester Lois dropped out of high school as a junior and was already dating Dave they got married and had
20:02three children very quickly Lois she just had this instant draw she was just super fun very sweet great
20:13laugh and just makes you feel very comfortable Lois for many years while her children were young especially
20:20had a daycare in her home if you went to Lois's daycare you were privileged like she everybody wanted Lois to
20:29watch her kids she was phenomenal she was a good mom and a good grandmother and did the things that good
20:37moms and grandmas are supposed to do our grandmas are the people that you can go to and and be
20:45comforted when bad things happen Lois was bad for her grandchildren her grandchildren and my children were
20:53the same age and we took them everywhere together bringing them to like the zoo and the beach and
21:00just doing lots of fun stuff she's just like the sweetest little grandma Dave was a jolly fun guy if
21:11you were in a bad mood sit by date because he'd have you laughing in a minute he had this infectious deep
21:16laugh always told jokes love to talk about fishing that was his favorite thing to do Dave ran a waxworm
21:26business so he actually grew waxworms from nothing and they would sell them at fisheries bait shops stuff
21:34like that Lois seemed very happy so did Dave never would have guessed there was like deeper problems involved
21:44I think it wasn't until later on in the years where you can tell something was changing in her everyone
21:56knew that Lois and Dave liked to go to the casino especially Lois it was something that a lot of
22:03the Blooming Prairie people their age did on the weekends but later on when she would call me and be
22:12like hey can I use you for an excuse I'm going to the casino and I don't want Dave to know that's when
22:19I kind of realized that maybe it was getting a little a little too much she had confided a couple times
22:28just exhausted and I said to her I'm like you're going to snap I panicked because then we find out Dave's
22:39dead and Lois is nowhere to be found she's not answering my phone calls not texting me back so
22:46then I'm like oh my gosh did something happen to her was she kidnapped was she murdered and taken away
22:52like I had no idea two weeks later Lois has managed to avoid Minnesota police for killing her husband and
23:05Florida police for killing Pam and the cops realized that she could already be days and miles ahead of
23:13them so while they look for her they try to figure out what she was up to right before she killed Pam
23:19so prior to the homicide we had learned that Lois Reese was spotted on Fort Myers Beach by Tess Coster a
23:28part-time resident of Florida we were part-time here in part-time in Minnesota Tess was from Blooming Prairie
23:38and so she was aware of the murder investigation that was happening up in that area at the time and
23:43knew about Lois Reese and what she may be wanted for on April 2nd I was cleaning my garage then I saw
23:59this pearl-colored Cadillac Escalade pull up in our driveway and someone got out looked at the house
24:05number and so I stepped out of the garage and said can I help you and she looked up and just shock was in
24:12her eyes and she said wrong house wrong house and looked down like this and shook her head and went
24:17around to her Escalade and got in and drove away well my heart just started pounding because here was Lois
24:27Reese in my driveway when she saw the person who she believed to be Lois in the driveway it scared her and she
24:37wanted to make you know the sheriff's office aware down here which she did but unfortunately she was
24:43able to stay hidden from us a few days later Lois Reese killed our victim I'm thinking she was after me
24:53first she got fouled out because I saw her and called 911 on her she had a plan in mind but Tess interrupted
25:01that and so instead of moving forward at that point she just took a step back and went another way the
25:08detectives figure that Lois switch gears and decided that someone like Pam wouldn't see her coming Lois was
25:17clearly desperate just definitely looking for more money and more options and homicides that I've worked
25:26everything has a reason and this reason in my mind was to assume the identity of the victim and use it
25:35for what she could I think she targeted her because they were similar someone like-minded similar
25:43characteristics skin color hair age she's already committed to murders and she's still in the wind we
25:53did search warrants on her cell phone we did search warrant on the financial information for Lois but then
25:59also for our victim as well she had made several withdrawals from ATMs using the victims information a
26:07couple days after the murder we also have her on video up in the Ocala area central Florida checking
26:14into a hotel under the identity of our victim wearing the same hat that our victim had in her room however
26:21by the time I found this Lois had already come and gone we know we have you we just got to find you
26:27and you're assuming the identity of our victim double murdering granny Lois Reese has a jump on Lee County
26:41cops so they cast a wider net across the south to see if they can catch back up sure enough another clue turns
26:49up we had tracked her to a casino in Louisiana and found out that she hit a jackpot for $1,500 she
27:02actually used her own name and ID to claim the winnings she did have a gambling addiction and that
27:09may very well be a good reason as to why Lois used her own information to collect the winning she felt proud
27:17it made me mad that she just seemed to be out there enjoying herself and just continuing to live her
27:25life knowing that she had committed one murder in Florida and most likely another one in Minnesota
27:31but Lois is slippery she's long gone days before police get the alert and they're once again left
27:40chasing her shadow I was able to present the case to the state attorney's office and walked a warrant
27:48through for the murder at which point then that went nationwide we alerted everybody that we could
27:56federal agencies state law enforcement local agencies anywhere and everywhere that we think
28:01she may be going we made them aware to be on the lookout for one Lois Reese herself but then also the
28:07vehicle that she was driving it became an all-points bulletin across the United States they put up bulletin
28:14boards around lots of different areas Texas Louisiana Florida with Pamela's picture and information on it so
28:21it became more than just a Florida or a Minnesota story it became a coast-to-coast story Lois became known
28:28very well known as the killer grandma with Lois's escape route now crossing state lines the heat gets
28:38turned way up the hunt for granny is now nationwide people wanted answers and people needed to know I
28:46mean she knew a lot of people in that town do you think she's around here do you think she might shoot
28:53anybody else the whole entire community was completely shocked and very sad very sad like I
29:02said everybody loved Dave everybody loved Lois so it was mad at Lois it was sad about Dave it was a very
29:10crazy dynamic that was going on there I had to actually turn the TVs off and not let anyone turn them on because
29:18my sons were small and Dave and Lois were grandma and grandpa to them
29:24my thoughts and seeing Lois wearing Pam's clothes I can't hardly comprehend it right now because it
29:36really bothers me it's just so abusive it's just a terrible reminder of what happened to Pam
29:46I definitely wanted her caught please God get her before she kills another woman
29:54killer granny Lois is just leaving chaos in her wake but the search stretches into another week
30:03without the cops catching up to her however they do catch the news that she's headed south
30:08there were several other license plate reader hits along a route to Texas heading south I had a thought
30:20that she would be trying to leave the country who knows where she's going next but I think we know she
30:27could kill someone again because that's already happened twice we were tracking Lois through license
30:34plate readers on the victim's car eventually it came to South Padre Island South Padre Island Texas very
30:44close to the border on April 19th we received information from the US Marshals Service that
30:52she had went into a bar and restaurant called dirty owls basically was looking at a menu and the manager
31:00there actually recognized her and called in a tip to the local police department and a marshal service when
31:08the marshals got to South Padre they canvassed the area and actually located the vehicle at a restaurant
31:14right adjacent to dirty owls they got the marshals rallied and trooped up and Lois was by then sitting in
31:24in the bar and yucking it up like she didn't have a care in the world I was elated she wasn't going to be
31:31able to keep this up forever cops have been looking everywhere for double murdering grandma Lois Reese but
31:43the US Marshals finally catch up and she's just sitting there sipping a drink in South Padre just a hop
31:50skipping a jump from Mexico this cadre of marshals moved in four or five of them and said we're gonna
31:58take you outside don't make a scene there was no resistance from Lois and it was very interesting to
32:06me how just calm cool and collected she was she didn't fight she didn't resist she didn't ask a bunch
32:11of questions she got up off her chair and out they went she almost just went willingly with the
32:21authorities I think Lois knew that she was caught that it was done there was a bulletin over the
32:29Associated Press that that she had been arrested when I heard that they had caught her at South Padre
32:38Island it was really a relief it was like this is one closure they caught her the grandma killer
32:47arrangements were made for us to fly out South Padre Island we knew we wanted to speak with her and we
32:57were hoping that she would speak with us I remember her being led from the holding cell into the interview
33:04room and she kind of just looked right through me and so instead of her being the outgoing jovial person
33:11that we see once she was caught her whole demeanor changed she was defeated almost and without saying
33:20another word she said she wanted an attorney with Lois lawyered up there's no way she's gonna confess so
33:29it's up to the cops to find some physical evidence that can tie this granny to the two murders she had
33:37secured a hotel room at a motel 6 just down the street according to hotel receipts Lois checked in on
33:46April 9th she lived the good life for 10 days before they caught up to her we were able to secure search
33:53warrants for the motel room where she was staying at and we found two handguns a nine millimeter and
33:59a 22 caliber the 22 caliber specifically we believe to be the murder weapon we found the victims clothing
34:10and specifically the hat that was shown on surveillance footage of her wearing at the bank at the hotel after
34:17she had committed the murder also something of note was a black bag kind of like a go bag and inside there
34:24was latex gloves there was duct tape there was our victim's personal information her wallet driver's
34:31license I think that Lois in her desperation because she was I'm sure getting antsy wanting to gamble with
34:43this addiction of hers I think she knew that Pam had money I think she killed Pamela to get another car and
34:53to get more money and so she clearly had a bit of a pattern so she gets to South Padre Island she goes
35:02and finds herself a spot to sit and kind of blend in and start hunting we did an extensive canvas and
35:13we spoke with numerous people that she came into contact with we were able to confirm with a lot
35:19of witnesses she was just having a great time hanging with people having drinks at the bar hanging out by
35:25the pool she told some people that she was a grandmother she had kids grandkids that she was a
35:32widow that her husband died recently her facade was probably of an innocent lady anybody will talk to her
35:39I came across a lady who said that she interacted often with Lois they went to dinner together she
35:50actually invited her at one point back to her own house she had kind of befriended Lois I remember
35:57specifically she had different color hair but I also know that in the search warrant at the motel
36:02room there was hair dye that we collected it was a dark color just like the witness out there and she
36:10possibly thought that she might be her next victim I do think she was planning on killing somebody in
36:19South Padre also and getting a new identity to go across the border so between this gal in South Padre
36:26and myself we're very lucky that we're still here it was a relief that she'd been caught that this
36:34so-called manhunt for the killer grandma was over and now came a hard part the court case this was a
36:41seminal moment for this case the court proceedings facing here in Florida and in Minnesota as well
36:48after she led the cops on a many state wild goose chase killer granny Lois Reese has to face the
37:00music for killing Pam Hutchinson in Florida and her husband David Reese in Minnesota so in Florida she
37:09was charged with first-degree homicide she was also charged in Minnesota with first-degree homicide based
37:17on the crime death penalty was on the table for her once Lois is locked up and staring down the
37:24consequences including the possibility of the death penalty she suddenly has a change of heart I
37:32eventually heard that Lois pled guilty to the crime of murder down here in exchange for the death penalty
37:38being taken off the table I wanted it to go to trial they claim that they didn't want to put the
37:52family through any extra whatever but I'd have been in court every day I wanted no mercy for her on December
38:0318th 2019 in Lee County Court Lois pled guilty to murder it became a huge story major breaking news the so-called
38:14killer grandma on Fort Myers Beach will spend the rest of her life in prison after pleading guilty once the
38:19case was wrapped up in Florida she was then transported up to Minnesota where she also entered a plea of guilty up there all
38:27all investigators can hope is that Lois's statement just shows us all how she went from loving grandmother
38:35to husband killer and everything spiraled from there down a path of fraud and murder Lois's story is that he
38:46was mad and they had argued and that he walked into their bedroom and he had a 22 in his bedroom handed her the
38:55gun and said well why don't you just kill yourself she claims that that just set her off and she said I
39:07I aimed right at his heart and I pulled the trigger I didn't believe that based on where he was in the bathroom I mean if
39:17she did have that argument outside of the bathroom where the guns were kept she's not moving that man into the
39:23bathroom that's why I think she snuck up on him just like she probably did our victim in Fort Myers Beach everything's alive with her
39:32Lois's addiction from what the authorities in Minnesota told me was gambling she had a love
39:42for the casinos a love for gambling and that was part of the problem that she had with her husband from
39:49what I was told the wax worm farm was successful but it was not making money because Lois was spending it
39:57all and asking Dave for more money and not terribly long before he was killed he said I'm done I'm cutting
40:06her off and I just think that everything caught up with her that's the only thing I could think of why
40:12she would do any of this it's just a legit mental breakdown she finally reached a breaking point and she
40:23chose the most drastic route in Florida she got a life sentence and eventually she got the same in
40:32Minnesota it was just so sad that you know to lose a friend lose Dave lose her and you want to still love
40:47them because you're your friend but what she did was so horrible and to this day it's still crazy to
40:55me like I just don't I still can't wrap my head around it Dave was fantastic his laugh was so contagious if
41:10you ever heard his laugh you'll never forget it super friendly he'd love to like give hugs and he was
41:17just so great one of my favorite memories of Pam when she would come home if I wasn't up she'd wake me
41:28up and we'd sit there and talk for two three hours until I'd finally say Pam I've got to go to bed and we
41:36would jabber-jabber for hours just talk and laugh and joke she just had a good heart she had a very good heart
41:47I mean the ripple effects of not only her murder victims but people who love them her own children her own
41:56grandchildren I mean oh god the pain I feel like Lois kind of tainted the grandmother image for all of us I
42:06have ten grandkids myself love them all dearly talk about them all the time just like she does and as a
42:14grandmother myself I can't imagine being less than the best example I can be for my grandchildren and
42:21that's how it should be that's just how it should be
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