- 23 hours ago
Madeleine Gavin ('Beyond Utopia'), Davis Guggenheim ('Still: A Michael J. Fox Movie'), Matthew Heineman ('American Symphony'), Nicole Newnham ('The Disappearance of Shere Hite'), D. Smith ('Kokomo City') and Roger Ross Williams ('Stamped From the Beginning') join The Hollywood Reporter for our Documentary Roundtable.
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00:00:00One of my greatest fears for my next project or moving forward is that I
00:00:04really want to maintain the audacity of I have the right. Whether you give me
00:00:13money or not, this is what I, this is my purpose. This is my purpose and and I
00:00:22will be honest with you. The scary part is that I'm not scared.
00:00:33Hi everyone and thank you for joining us for the Hollywood Reporter
00:00:35Documentary Roundtable. I'm Scott Feinberg and so honored to be joined
00:00:39today by the directors of six of 2023's most outstanding documentary
00:00:44features. We are gonna go through them one by one on behalf of Roadside's
00:00:49Beyond Utopia, a film about a South Korean pastor and some of the
00:00:53desperate people he tries to help escape from oppressive North Korea, Madeline
00:00:57Gavin. On behalf of Apple's Still, a Michael J. Fox movie, a film about the
00:01:02life and struggles of the titular beloved actor who was stricken at a young age
00:01:06with Parkinson's disease, Davis Guggenheim. On behalf of Netflix's American
00:01:10Symphony, a film about the musician John Batiste experiencing his greatest
00:01:14professional success at the same time that his wife is facing some of her
00:01:18greatest personal challenges, Matthew Heinemann. On behalf of IFC and
00:01:23Sapen Studios' The Disappearance of Sheer Height, a film about the titular
00:01:28sex researcher and her landmark 1976 book about female sexuality, both largely
00:01:35overlooked until now, Nicole Noonan. On behalf of Netflix's Stamp from the
00:01:40Beginning, a film about the history of anti-black racism in America, Roger Ross
00:01:44Williams. And on behalf of Magnolia's Kokomo City, a film about the lives of four
00:01:49black transgender women who have performed sex work and open up about
00:01:53their experiences and their dreams, Dee Smith. So thank you all for taking the time
00:01:58to be here and we are very excited to have you.
00:02:03I want to start by talking about the origins of these projects then we'll get a
00:02:07little looser in the format. I want everybody to just jump in when you have
00:02:10something to say but just to establish how we got here. Madeline, one does not
00:02:16really see many documentaries from inside or even about North Korea because it's
00:02:22very hard to make one and I wonder if you can talk about just how you learned
00:02:27about the story that your film tells this incredible network of people that are
00:02:31trying to help people there and how you, you know, what convinced you to tackle that.
00:02:39Yeah, so initially I was approached by our producers. What ended up happening was I
00:02:45embarked on, you know, many months of research becoming more and more obsessed
00:02:50with what was really going on inside North Korea. It's incredible. I mean,
00:02:54a story that I didn't know could be told is, you know, just made possible by the,
00:03:00all these different people who shared their footage, their, you know, risk things to work
00:03:05with you on that. Amazing. And Davis, you have made docs about a wide variety of prominent people
00:03:11before. Not only prominent people, but let's just note Al Gore, Malala, Bill Gates, the list goes on.
00:03:19Now we come to Michael J. Fox. I guess part A, do these folks all share anything in common? And part B,
00:03:26why Michael J. Fox? What, what led you to him? I think the thing that I look for is something,
00:03:31a character that moves me and can influence my own life. And unfortunately it happened
00:03:37in a really dark time for me. It was during COVID. I can say now that I was depressed.
00:03:43Our family, my family was fine, but I remember being at dinner and my kids and my wife would all be
00:03:48laughing and I'd be on the couch by myself. And just feeling like I was getting older. My kids were getting
00:03:54older. My best films were behind me. And then one morning I picked up the New York Times and I read
00:04:00this interview with Michael J. Fox. And I wasn't looking for a movie and I, I wasn't thinking that
00:04:05that would be a good movie. And he had this wisdom about him. This, uh, he was talking about a terrible
00:04:12fall he had. He was doing a Spike Lee movie and he fell and shattered his arm and he couldn't reach the
00:04:18phone to call the set. And, and the way he told the story was compelling, but also had this wisdom in
00:04:25it that forget, I wasn't thinking about a movie, but the wisdom spoke to me. I was like, I gotta,
00:04:31I gotta read that book. And then I read his other book and I was like, wait a minute,
00:04:35there's something in here that, that I didn't understand about him that drew me in.
00:04:40Matt, you are known for very gutsy docs, uh, that have put you into some pretty crazy situations
00:04:48inside vigilante groups, taking on Mexican drug cartels, ISIS occupied Syria, a New York City
00:04:55emergency room during the earliest days of COVID Afghanistan during the U S military withdrawal.
00:05:01I mean, these are, uh, just, you know, takes, takes some, some real guts to go in those situations.
00:05:09This film is very different, but no less powerful. And I just wonder, were you looking for a bit of a
00:05:15change of pace or how did you wind up even in the orbit of John Batiste and his wife, Suleika?
00:05:21So John, uh, did the score for this first wave and, uh, we're having dinner afterwards and he's telling me
00:05:29about the next sort of year of his life and obviously, which included American Symphony.
00:05:34And we both sort of turned to each other. It was like, yeah, we should probably film this and
00:05:38document this. But at that point, it's going to be just a process film, you know, leading up to
00:05:42Carnegie Hall, him traveling around the country, gaining musical influences from different regions,
00:05:46different people. And then life intervened. He got nominated for 11 Grammys. His wife, Suleika,
00:05:53got re-diagnosed with cancer. And so the lens had already shifted before he even started filming.
00:05:58And so, yeah, I mean, I think a lot of people ask me, like, why did you do this film? It feels so
00:06:01different than everything you've done. And I don't view it that way. You know, I try to make films about
00:06:07people that, you know, I find compelling, that are undergoing some sort of massive challenge or
00:06:14up against something. And, you know, this, it's really a portrait of these two artists navigating
00:06:19these highs and lows of life during this year.
00:06:21Dee, you come from the world of music. You even won a Grammy for your work on a Lil Wayne album.
00:06:28But in recent years, you've said you were felt, I guess, drawn away from that community and towards
00:06:37filmmaking. And I wonder if you can give us a little bit of the context of what was going on to create
00:06:43those feelings in you of trying something different. And then also how we arrived at the story of these
00:06:49Four Women.
00:06:49Well, I mean, there was honestly so many reasons that led for me to do this film. But
00:06:56being a producer for well over 15 years, I decided to transition in 2014.
00:07:06And when I did that, it's like literally all of my connections, all of my relationships and
00:07:15funds that were in the pipeline, as we called it in the industry,
00:07:18had just disappeared. And so, like Davis, I went into a really dark place. And prior to that,
00:07:29I was pretty, pretty happy and content with my life. And, and for years, I just could not get back
00:07:36on my feet. I mean, literally lost my car, my home, my recording studio, friends. It's like,
00:07:46and I'm so used to being the strong one. I'm, that's, that was my role.
00:07:50You know, and how do I even come to acknowledging that I've been defeated, discriminated against,
00:07:58and, and that I need help. So instead of asking and telling people that I am a victim
00:08:03of something that is very hard to hold anybody accountable for in the industry, I just
00:08:08let everything kind of go. And so fast forwarding in around 2018, 19, I had the idea to do Kokomo
00:08:16City because there were a lot of transgender narrative and content, but I felt in my, from,
00:08:23from my experience that there was like this, uh, glass barrier that we weren't getting past as trans
00:08:31people in the black community, particularly the black community. Like there's a lot of content,
00:08:36but there's no action. You know, we're not getting closer to the, to my community. We're actually
00:08:42getting much further, you know, and a lot of times, you know, fortresses every year, every month,
00:08:48there's a new fortress built around us to kind of like even dehumanize us in a lot of ways. So I
00:08:53thought, you know, I have to tell the story of true transgenderism and where we are today. And I,
00:08:58instead of using, you know, the girls, um, that we're normally seeing, I wanted to use girls that are
00:09:03normally murdered or look like the girls that are normally murdered. So, um, I reached out to them on
00:09:11Instagram and talk with them and stalk their pages a little bit and, uh, yeah, and created Kokomo City
00:09:18because they, like me, they were, they're discriminated against, looked down on and turned their backs
00:09:23on and, uh, not heard. Powerful. Uh, Nicole, you were coming off one great documentary that, uh, drew upon
00:09:33archival footage to tell a story that had largely been forgotten, if ever known, and that was Crip Camp,
00:09:39um, which you did with James Lebrecht a few years ago during the dark days of the pandemic,
00:09:45at least that's when it came out. I wonder what, what your original, that, that same idea of,
00:09:53you know, having a trove of archival footage to help tell a story that again, people either
00:09:59don't remember or never knew, um, applies to sheer height. And I wonder when did she first cross your
00:10:05radar and when did you realize there was all this stuff out there to serve as the foundation for a,
00:10:12for a doc? Yeah, you know, it's funny because both with Crip Camp and with the disappearance of
00:10:17Cher Height, they became these really archivally rich projects, but, but I didn't know about the
00:10:23archive with either of them when I started setting out to make a film about both subjects. Um, so with
00:10:29Crip Camp the footage didn't emerge until like nine months after we had started the project and, and with
00:10:35Cher Height, you know, she had just been so, Cher Height, you know, this sex researcher who wrote the Height
00:10:41Report, which was just this seminal, seminal work that liberated so many women and men, principally by
00:10:49teaching people that most women did not orgasm through vaginal penetration, but actually through
00:10:54clitoral stimulation, which was like this massive bombshell, um, in the culture at the time. And, um,
00:11:00and we kind of live now in a post Cher Height world, but Cher Height herself has been forgotten.
00:11:05So, um, I read the book when I was 12. I found it in my mother's bedside table where she hid things
00:11:10that she didn't want me to see. That's another documentary. Well, yeah, that's true actually,
00:11:16and people have been coming and telling me their stories of their moms and their copies of the Height
00:11:20Report that they hid or made covers for so people wouldn't know they were reading them.
00:11:24But I read it and it was a portal into a world of female sexuality that just was not
00:11:29otherwise available to me anywhere at that time. You know, I was getting little scraps from Judy
00:11:33Bloom and, you know, Anne Frank and anywhere I could find it. But, um, but I remembered the Height
00:11:39Report throughout the rest of my life. And so like Davis, I picked up the New York Times and the
00:11:43nadir of the pandemic and I read her obituary and the headline was Cher Height, she explained how women
00:11:49orgasm and she was hated for it. And, um, and so I just, and then I read a little bit about her,
00:11:56which was so tantalizing, but I just was burning to know, you know, how did she do the work she did
00:12:01and how did this massive contribution get forgotten? Um, and so then I happened to have
00:12:08a meeting with NBC news studios and there was a young producer there who had read the same obituary
00:12:13and had the same question, but from the point of view of being 35 and thinking like, wait a minute,
00:12:17I majored in women's studies. How have I never heard of her? So that's how the project started.
00:12:21Amazing. Um, Roger, let's just note a few facts. You are the first black director to ever win an
00:12:28academy award. That's a, which this was as recently as 2009. We're not talking about decades and decades
00:12:36ago. Um, now for a lot longer than that, you have been an admired filmmaker and, and working in
00:12:46capacities involved related to film, but let's just 2023 alone. Cause I've never heard of a year
00:12:51like this from anyone ever. You've also directed the narrative film, Cassandra, the docuseries,
00:12:56the 1619 project, the docuseries, the supermodels, the documentary, love to love you, Donna Summer,
00:13:03uh, a cooking series that's about to come out called high on the hog and then step from the
00:13:08beginning, which, uh, is drawn from Ibram X. Kendi 600 page national book award-winning, uh,
00:13:17story about the origins and evolution, I guess devolution. I don't know what you would say of
00:13:23anti-black racism in America. Um, what was going on, uh, at the time that you came across
00:13:32his writings, uh, Ibram's and why did you decide this is the story that needs to be told now?
00:13:38Yeah. It sounds like I never sleep, but actually do sleep. Those film, all those film projects took a long
00:13:44time. Yeah. Um, uh, so this all came to me in the middle of George Floyd, George Floyd happened.
00:13:52And, you know, George Floyd changed everything in America. Uh, we watched nine minutes of, um,
00:14:00someone being brutally murdered and everyone had an emotional reaction. And as I even, I live upstate
00:14:08in this small, tiny farming town, and even the farmers were, were protesting, carrying Black Lives Matter
00:14:14signs on their tractors. I was like, what is going on in America? And I remember at that protest,
00:14:21I started to cry because I was like, oh my God, finally people are realizing that, what, that Black
00:14:27people matter? Like, took that, took that, took that, that brutal murder. And so I started thinking,
00:14:35what can I do as a filmmaker? And I made it my mission to really sort of tackle racism and the
00:14:42legacy of slavery. Um, and that's why I did the 16, I started with Ta-Nehisi Coates, Between the World and
00:14:48Me, which was an HBO special. Then the 1619 Project with Oprah, the New York Times, and, um, Nicole Hannah
00:14:57Jones. Um, and, um, but throughout that whole time, Dr. Kendi had the number one New York Times bestseller
00:15:04for over a year. And that was called How to Be an Anti-Racist. But he also had the number six New York
00:15:11Times bestseller stamp from the beginning. So he had two books in the top 10 for well over a year.
00:15:17And, um, I read, I read both books, but when I read Stamped, it just blew me away because it's the
00:15:26history of racist ideas and it takes you all the way back to the beginning. The first, the creation of the
00:15:31racist idea that black people are inferior, um, and therefore they, you know, needed to be enslaved
00:15:37to be civilized. And it was used to justify slavery. And, but I learned so much about how I, myself,
00:15:43as a black person would, you know, sort of fall prey to these racist ideas. And it opened my eyes and
00:15:50I was like, I've got to figure out how to take this crazy me. I had to figure out how to take this 600
00:15:55page book and make it into a 90 minute film. Well, and we're going to now shift to talking
00:16:04about how something like that happens with the different, um, techniques and things that have
00:16:09made this a golden age of documentary filmmaking. I mean, there are things that if you watch a
00:16:14documentary from even 15, 20 years ago, there, they were great for their time, but there are,
00:16:20there are a lot of things I think we, we can all agree that are, um, increasingly used to make
00:16:26documentaries a little more dynamic. And I'd like to ask you all to talk about ways in which you
00:16:32did that. There are, we have docs with animation, we have docs with visual effects that are used to
00:16:37tell stories, you know, stuff that actually, you know, Roger as a governor, former governor of the
00:16:43documentary branch of the academy, stuff that usually got you, uh, not nominated because it was,
00:16:48right. It was, it was seemed to be the thing that, you know, how, this is not what a documentary is.
00:16:54A documentary is basically a, you know, a PBS kind of style thing, which again, they were great,
00:16:59but that's not all docs can be. So I wonder if, if folks would like to weigh in about just, uh,
00:17:05your own experiences, whether it's on these films that we've been talking about or others that you made
00:17:10of how the, the genre, the medium has expanded in recent years.
00:17:15I think a lot of it is, you know, the streamers and the popularity of documentaries and sort of,
00:17:21you know, for me, like Netflix sort of threw down a challenge. They're like, how do you make,
00:17:25you make this, you know, accessible to the, to the masses and how do you make, you know,
00:17:30a historical film about racism accessible to the masses? And we've kind of retrained audiences now.
00:17:37It used to be, you know, back in the day, it used to be that, you know, just documentaries could only be
00:17:42talking heads and if, and the academy really, the doc branch members, if there were recreations or
00:17:49there was anything, they would like, nope, you're out.
00:17:51The thin blue line was not even nominated.
00:17:53Yeah, because we, you know, as, because the streamers came in, you know,
00:18:00they provided a lot of, you know, resources and money and, and, um, and also the, just this wide
00:18:06audience, right? And so we started retraining people how to, how to rethink what a documentary
00:18:12is. And then we can bring in, I mean, I use actors on a green screen, a 360 green screen stage,
00:18:20you know, rotoscoped with animation and needle drop music. I mean, it just, it's like a fun ride
00:18:27through racism, which is kind of crazy.
00:18:29You had a creature crawling through a document. I was watching, I was like, oh, okay. I didn't know
00:18:35we could, I was like a creature crawling. Okay. Rogers, go home. Rogers, go home.
00:18:40It's a new world. And I think, you know, and it's, it's, it's exciting. You know, it's, you know,
00:18:45there's obviously there's issues around the, you know, the amount of money spent on documentaries and,
00:18:51you know, and access to that. But, um, it also, it's also exciting that we get to really
00:18:57play and we get to really create exciting films.
00:18:59I mean, Davis, you, we could go back, uh, I think it's 17 years since An Inconvenient Truth.
00:19:07How would you say your own approach to making film? Not that there was any, I mean, obviously a great
00:19:13Oscar winning film, but there are things that I think you might employ today that you wouldn't have
00:19:18even back then. For sure. I'm still, we used some of Michael J. Fox's movies and TV shows,
00:19:25almost like archive. So he's on spin city and he's not, he hasn't told the world he has Parkinson's.
00:19:32He didn't even tell the show, the people on the producers or the writers, but we went back
00:19:37and looked at footage of him and he's hiding his hand. It's shaking. And, um, to look at that,
00:19:44that footage as archive is kind of stunning and interesting. The great thing right now is that
00:19:51you can do anything. But I think the hard part is you got, there's a, there's a factual thing and
00:20:01there's a feeling of inauthenticity. And I think when audiences feel like you're pulling one over
00:20:07them, that's when it matters. So you can use animation, you can use recreation, you can use
00:20:12all these tools that you weren't allowed to use because back then they said you couldn't.
00:20:15But I think audiences are very smart and they know when you're fooling them. Cheating. And so that's,
00:20:23to me, that's a, that's a harder thing to pin down. Now there's more money being invested in
00:20:31documentary. It doesn't mean it's easier or, uh, you guys are, have unlimited budgets. I know you don't,
00:20:38but there are still some real grassroots techniques that in the case of these six films were employed.
00:20:46I mean, Madeline, I want to come back and talk about the fact that I don't know how you even knew
00:20:52you would have, how, at what point you knew you even had a film because so much of this, uh, film
00:20:59centers on one particular family trying to get out with footage being captured by people where it was
00:21:05never totally guaranteed that the footage would get back to you. I don't, there's just so many
00:21:09logistical things that you could have, uh, a giant budget, but that doesn't matter because if you don't
00:21:16have the footage, good luck. So what was taking me through your process of just, um, you know, going
00:21:24as grassroots as you can go with this film? Yeah. I mean, for me, and I've seen all of your guys' films and
00:21:30I'm in awe of all of them and they're all so distinct. And one thing I love is in what we're
00:21:35talking about is just sort of, it's like the story that wants to be told is what's motivating the way
00:21:39it's going to be told instead of some rule. In, in my case, um, once I felt this vast hole of 26 million
00:21:48people, you know, having absolutely no voice in this world at all, um, I felt like I got to do something
00:21:57all the way, you know, and I have to make it experiential. And it was through my relationship
00:22:02with Pastor Kim, the South Korean pastor that I was able to do that. And yeah, we were, you know,
00:22:08when Pastor Kim and I decided to do this together and that we, we realized that we really wanted to
00:22:13make the same kind of film, which really brought people up close and personal to North Koreans
00:22:19themselves, you know, because I have a mandate always in my work, you know, the more specific,
00:22:24the more universal and just, you know, you can have statistics all over the place, but
00:22:27getting in there with one person, with one experience, you can resonate throughout, you know,
00:22:32the world. And, um, once we decided to do this, we decided that we would, I would follow the next two
00:22:39escape stories that contacted him. And the two stories that we follow are the next two groups.
00:22:44Those are the only things that we followed. But yeah, we were able to shoot on the border of North
00:22:49Korea and China, a place that you do not want to go. Nobody really wants to be there. And, um,
00:22:55we were able to do it because of Pastor Kim's Underground Railroad, you know, that was the only
00:22:59way. And so every step of the way, the goal was, you know, to create something that really put us in
00:23:06the shoes and made us confront these people who we have ignored for 70 plus years. And we had to do it
00:23:13in different ways along the way. So China, obviously nobody, you know, we had to do it in a way it also
00:23:18wasn't going to draw attention to people who were already, you know, like at absolute life and death
00:23:24risk. So in China, it was only the Underground Railroad and one family member. We were in Southeast
00:23:30Asia, but there were certain places where we could be and certain places where only the brokers could be
00:23:35or only, and all of this was directed through Pastor Kim, the Underground Railroad, policy people in South
00:23:41Korea, United States, activists in South Korea, United States and Japan, and all of it with the goal
00:23:48of, um, of putting ourselves in these shoes and getting us face to face with people we've ignored.
00:23:54But one thing I also want to say is not only did we, you know, the footage from China, yes, I mean,
00:24:02getting those cards and we actually locked, there were some that were lost along the way by the broker
00:24:06network. Um, but getting those cards was extraordinary and we couldn't count on that. But it wasn't just
00:24:11that we had to go into this knowing that in terms of consent, you know, I had a mandate that
00:24:18all the way along the line, you know, you can't ask a family who's run across the river from North
00:24:23Korea into China for proper consent. So the Roe family had the right to deny this film up until the
00:24:32end. So Yun Lee, our second story, who did give me her consent early on, because we were still finding
00:24:38out stuff about her son. I actually was cutting two different versions of the movie up until Sundance,
00:24:45one without her, because I wanted to make sure that up until three weeks before Sundance, if she
00:24:51changed her mind, I had another. So it was like, yeah, I mean, I'm going on, but it was crazy. It was,
00:24:59and I, and I have to say, Pastor, you know, obviously none of this would have been possible without
00:25:04this vast underground railroad and that goes through China and Southeast Asia and Pastor Kim.
00:25:11Well, it seems like, you know, sometimes the thing that makes life extra complicated for the filmmaker
00:25:21can also inadvertently enhance the film. I don't know that that's a great revelation, but it is worth
00:25:28noting. I mean, like Dee, we talk about Kokomo City because I guess there was very little in the way
00:25:36of resources, things that, you know, the fact that you shot it with like one light and that it's in
00:25:42black and white. And these are, I think if you probably had the resources, would you have done that?
00:25:48To be honest, I love the fact that I was limited. I do look forward to creating a film with a budget,
00:25:59but I also know where I was in my life with Kokomo City. I had a lot to prove
00:26:03as a filmmaker and I was, it was, I was so intrepid. Like I didn't feel discouraged by it. I was very
00:26:13inspired by the challenge and, or what most people would deem as a challenge. But without the budget,
00:26:22that's, that is, that was the magic. And sometimes the budget gets in the way, especially for creators.
00:26:29People don't want to admit that, but you sometimes as creators, you got to remember why you're even
00:26:34doing this and remember your first film. And sometimes even as music artists, like no one
00:26:40wants to hear new music from artists on, on tour. We want to hear the things that made us fall in
00:26:44love with you. So I will never forget the experience of creating Kokomo City with, with no budget.
00:26:50Yeah. Matt, we're talking a moment ago with Madeline about getting people in very vulnerable
00:26:57points in their life and who knows if they are even in a position to, to calculate what it means
00:27:05to be sharing that with the world as things, they're learning things at the same time you're
00:27:08learning things. I mean, there are moments in American Symphony where I can't imagine a more
00:27:16personal difficult moment than, than learning about a diagnosis or a pro prognosis or any of that.
00:27:23Can you just talk us through how it worked with John and Suleika to, again, when you set out to make
00:27:31the film, you said this was not what this was going to be getting in that whole side of things was not
00:27:36part of it. So how did it evolve to the point where you're still welcomed in for, for some really tough
00:27:44times for them? I mean, I think for me, trust is key to everything I do to get the access that I get,
00:27:51to get the intimacy that I get. And that trust isn't given, it's earned. And you continually have to earn
00:27:58it day in, day out, week in, week out. And, you know, that being said, Suleika did not want to be part of
00:28:04this film. She was very, very clear when we started filming. This is John's film. I don't want to be
00:28:11the sick antidote to John's success. I don't want to be the sick wife. Like, she's very smart. Like,
00:28:16she's an incredible storyteller herself. So that was a really difficult thing to navigate because I
00:28:21always envisioned this, like, love story about these two individuals confronting this, these obstacles.
00:28:27But, you know, she didn't want that. And so it took a lot of time to make her feel comfortable
00:28:34and about both my intentions and what this film would be, to allow me to film her side of the
00:28:40story, to make her a fully formed artist, character, and obviously to document this life or death
00:28:47struggle as she went through a bone marrow transplant. So it was, you know, it was in the
00:28:51height of COVID. And so it was like having made a COVID film, I didn't want to make another COVID film,
00:28:55but it was very tricky from a producing point of view to sort of be on the road and filming all
00:28:59over the place with John and having to navigate, get into the hospital, you know, and going through
00:29:06a bone marrow transplant, you have no immune system. So even just a cold could have killed her. So it was,
00:29:11you know, something that we took really, really seriously and was, you know, a very delicate thing
00:29:15to walk. And obviously she and John have, you know, embraced the resulting product. They've been very
00:29:23supportive of it. But it is interesting that there is a, it's not like just because somebody one day is
00:29:30on board, you know, people's feelings change, right? You have to walk with them through that.
00:29:35Yeah. I mean, very similarly, like, I just, I didn't know until we were done shooting whether
00:29:39she'd sign a release and whether she'd consent. So the whole exercise was an exercise, it was a leap of
00:29:45faith on all of our parts. And it was just such a fun experience making a film with two sort of
00:29:53master improvisers. You know, I think we all have this idea that sort of magic can exist behind
00:29:59every door. You just have to open it. And that's how she confronted her cancer. That's how he confronted
00:30:06all the obstacles in front of him. That's how they live their lives. And I love making films that way.
00:30:11So it was fun to sort of dance with the realities of, of all the twists and turns that happened over
00:30:16these eight months. I mean, we're filming every single day, seven days a week, 12, 16, 18 hours a day.
00:30:22Um, so it was a, it was a huge buy-in from, from them and obviously from us too, but mainly from them.
00:30:29And, you know, I owe so much to them to, you know, for opening their lives up to me and to us
00:30:35at such an unbelievably vulnerable moment. I want to talk about structure because some of the things
00:30:41again, you didn't know in, in a few cases at this table where your story, you know, was,
00:30:47I guess you never really know where it's totally going. Um, but I want to just as a example, um,
00:30:55of how important it, it is once you've got your material and you've got to figure out how you want
00:31:00to present it. Let's start with talking about openings and just how you begin a documentary and
00:31:06lay out your case. And I want to start with Nicole because you do a really interesting thing
00:31:11that I don't know that I've ever even seen before. Can you just break down, if somebody hasn't seen
00:31:16the beginning of Disappearance of Cher Height, how it starts? Yeah. So, I mean, it starts very
00:31:24intentionally kind of with Cher on the cusp of presenting her great new work. Um, an NBC News crew
00:31:30has come to her, um, little basement apartment where she made, um, the Height Report and they're interviewing
00:31:36her about the project. And she's so excited about what she's about to share with the world because
00:31:41she's so, she thinks it can be revolutionary and it can really create better relationships between
00:31:45men and women. And, um, and you see all that beauty, but you also see the crew react. There's a feeling
00:31:52of tension because, um, the reporter who's interviewing her has to stop and tell the crew to stop sniggering
00:31:58when she starts talking like I just did and everybody kind of laughed about vaginal penetration and
00:32:03clitoral stimulation. But there she is in 1976 on, you know, a major news network talking about that. Um,
00:32:10but then I think what you're talking about is that we cut to her in 1994 and she's watching herself
00:32:17on camera and NBC News is interviewing her again. And it's the same footage that we started watching. We
00:32:22realized it's, she's watching that footage and reacting to it however many years later. Yeah, exactly. And so it sort of
00:32:29did a lot of things for, for us and we were really, um, committed to that beginning because both because
00:32:35it, it started out with her kind of before she was, before she was denigrated, um, when she was really
00:32:46being listened to. And it also lets you know that she was like this enormous phenomenon that somebody
00:32:51would even come back and ask her that in the nineties. And then you're thinking like, wait a minute,
00:32:54why did I forget her? You know? That's right. Yeah. Roger, you, uh, open your film in a pretty
00:32:59provocative way as well. I'm going to absolutely leave it to you to say how you, how you do so.
00:33:05Yeah. Well, I opened the film with the question, what is wrong with black people? Um,
00:33:11and I end the film with the answer. Uh, the reason I did that was to be provocative. Actually,
00:33:19um, I did that because I wanted to people to be signaled right from the top that this isn't going
00:33:24to be your typical, this is going to be some boring historical documentary. This is going to be
00:33:30quite interesting. Um, and I wanted to shock people and to like, you know, just get their attention right
00:33:36away from the top, but it's also the last line of the book. Um, and the last line of the book is the
00:33:42answer to that question is the only thing wrong with black people is that you think something is wrong
00:33:46with black people. So I had cut the whole film and, um, at the very end it, that was always at the
00:33:54end of the film, but then someone said, it was actually an editor advisor said to me, um, you
00:33:59should start, you should put that as the, as you know, ask the question and then bookend it. And I was
00:34:05like, that's so brilliant. Why didn't I think of that? You know? And just like that, it was such a simple
00:34:10idea, but I did not think of it. Um, and so, you know, it, it, it basically lays out the whole film
00:34:17because it asked the question and then the film over, um, six, over, you know, nine lies about black
00:34:24people of which are chapter headings, you know, takes you through, uh, and it answered by the time
00:34:30you're at the end of the film, the question is, is answered. You're like, I myself believe many of
00:34:35these lies about black people. I guess another thing I want to talk about is the, it's great.
00:34:40We're in a golden age of documentaries where there's zillion streamers and other places that
00:34:46have things they want to get out there. On the other hand, I imagine that makes it a bit harder
00:34:50to break through the noise and actually, uh, get people to, uh, know what's important to watch,
00:34:57what, what's worth their time. There's only so many hours in, in any day. And so I want to ask you
00:35:02about how you guys have found, uh, you know, the, the ways, whether, you know, what, what has been
00:35:09most effective at doing that. I think that just to tee up a few things that may come into this
00:35:16film festivals, and I wonder if you can say how they have maybe made a difference,
00:35:21executive producers. I mean, just as one example, um, Nicole on Crip Camp, Matt on American Symphony.
00:35:27I imagine it's helpful to have the Obamas, uh, endorsing your film. Um, and so, you know.
00:35:35The OGs. The OGs. But just, uh, you know, talk about the, the part of what we're all here doing is
00:35:44highlighting films that are worth people's time. But, uh, there are many ways to do that, and it's
00:35:49very necessary, I think, right? So maybe whoever wants to jump first with that, but I, I think it's
00:35:55interesting that you have a whole separate job after the film is made to get people to actually,
00:36:02uh, check it out. I mean, in our case, we actually, we went to everyone to get this film funded and no
00:36:09one wanted to fund it. Even after John had won five Grammys, um, literally every, you know, studio,
00:36:15every funder. And so we had to make this film independently. Um, it was the first time I'd premiered
00:36:20a film without a distributor in a while. So it was really fun going to Telluride with this film
00:36:26without having any clue whether anyone would, you know, want it or want to see it. Um, then obviously,
00:36:32you know, Netflix and Obamas came on board after that. But yeah, no, I mean, I think that's the sort
00:36:36of thing that we all deal with. I think we all love making films. Like we want to keep making films.
00:36:41And, and, you know, obviously this is part of the job too. Um, for me, having made a lot of, you know,
00:36:48really intense, heavy films, it's been fun sort of seeing, you know, trying to see joy in, in the
00:36:56theater, um, in a way that I've, I've never experienced in films that I've made.
00:37:00I think with, with Crip Camp and with Share Height, you know, I think we took a lot of inspiration
00:37:06in terms of these kind of quixotic projects and the, the spirit of organizing that's in both films,
00:37:13you know, and the women's movement with Share Height and then the disability rights movement
00:37:17with Crip Camp. You just, it's like the scrappy grassroots organizing thing and like getting
00:37:21your friends together and getting a group of people who's super passionate and figuring out how to
00:37:25navigate that. Like we really wanted this film to reach younger audiences. So having Dakota
00:37:30Johnson come on board as an EP and a narrator was really exciting. You know, um, she's also
00:37:35somebody who's really into sexual health and wellness and women's rights. So, um, so, so that is,
00:37:42you know, gotta, gotta be like also the right artistic choice, which I wasn't totally sure for a long time
00:37:49what age, you know, the voice of Share should be. But once we realized it was in that range
00:37:54and then I watched The Lost Daughter again, I was just absolutely blown away, you know? So I, I guess I'm
00:38:00saying that to say she, she came on board as somebody who could help us, you know, get a broader reach
00:38:04for the film, but also as somebody who really is passionately dedicated to the cause and could be
00:38:09kind of in the trenches with us trying to figure out ways to get the film seen and known. So, um,
00:38:14I mean, I guess that's what, what we're, we all are like, you know, activists and filmmakers and, um,
00:38:20and it, and you're right, it doesn't ever end.
00:38:23I mean, film festivals though, have, have you found that, uh, I think every one of these came
00:38:28through the, at least one, uh, film festival en route to release. Um, what is the greatest value?
00:38:35Uh, you know, Davis, I think this started at Sundance for you. Um, you've had movies premiere at
00:38:42Telluride Toronto, I believe just all the, what's, you know, our film festivals more important now than
00:38:48they used to be. I think so. Sundance is incredible. I mean, it just, I always find that I can go to
00:38:56some scripted stuff at Sundance when it gets hit or miss, but the documentaries at Sundance are always
00:39:02great forever. Yes. Uh, and so that's for me as a consumer, I was like, well, if it's on Sundance,
00:39:08I got to watch it. Um, I think people are scared right now, to be honest with you. I mean, the,
00:39:14the business is shifting, the fundamentals are shifting, even though the streamers have spent
00:39:20a lot of money, they haven't proven that they can make money. And I think there's a lot of filmmakers
00:39:24out there right now who are really worried about, you know, can we, can we sustain this? Can we do
00:39:31this? And, and for me, it's like, well, and I hear like people saying, well, this kind of movie is
00:39:39selling and this kind of movie is not selling. And to me, it's like, if I'm interested in it,
00:39:45if I can't go to bed because I'm thinking about that, I have to make it and forget the rest,
00:39:51forget the noise, just go make it. And if you do that and you devote your life to it and if your,
00:39:56your heart and soul is in it, then you'll find somebody who will watch it. But that's not, I hope
00:40:02sometimes that works. That's interesting. And I mean, you're finding that, I mean,
00:40:08we talk about the number of docu-series and documentaries and things you've had in the last
00:40:12year, Roger, but I mean, what's your, you're, you've also been kind of a point person for the doc
00:40:17community at the Academy. So what's your read of it? I mean, I think Davis is right. You know,
00:40:23filmmakers, documentary filmmakers are struggling now. And there's so many films that aren't selling that are,
00:40:29you know, serious films that are not about celebrity or not about, you know, music film or,
00:40:37you know, and those films just aren't selling because, because these, the streamers and the buyers
00:40:43need to, you know, answer to their boards and their CEOs and they need to make money and big names make,
00:40:50make money. And it's, it's hard. I mean, even for, even for like Stamped, that came out of the wake of
00:40:58George Floyd, when they were buying lots of black product, we know that they were buying
00:41:03lots of black product. The racial reckoning suddenly is over. America no longer cares about
00:41:09racism's over. Apparently the racial reckoning, the people caring about racism is over.
00:41:16And then the buyers, all of a sudden they're like, we're no longer interested in black product.
00:41:20We're no longer interested in these stories. And we've seen it. We've seen Black Lives Matter,
00:41:24another black lives matter film. I don't want to see that. And, and you know, so you're dealing
00:41:29with that. I mean, I mean, you know, it was a struggle to even keep pushing this through,
00:41:34to get this out there. And we need it now more than ever, because we're coming up to an election
00:41:40year where we have a, we're in a time where books are banned, where history is banned, where you're not
00:41:48allowed to talk about slavery anymore. It's crazy. And Kendi is one of the most banned authors in
00:41:54America, but you can't ban Netflix. So it's just like, it's this battle. But again, the companies
00:42:02have to answer to a, you know, a bigger power and they have to make money. And so it's the celebrities
00:42:09that went out and it's the serious films that haven't, that's want to say something serious,
00:42:13that are getting left behind. And it's, we have to figure something out. We have to figure out
00:42:18another way for people to see those films. I mean, watching Roger's film yesterday,
00:42:23I was just like, so, so grateful that that film is going to be on Netflix. I'm so,
00:42:28so happy. It's like, it's incredible, you know, and amazing. And, and I don't want to see a world
00:42:35where, you know, people's, well, why should we take a risk? Why should we alienate? You know,
00:42:40I mean, in, in terms of anything that might be progressive, why would we want to alienate half
00:42:44of the voting public, you know, with that? Um, I think that's really terrible. And so I find myself
00:42:50thinking about kind of Trojan horse films, things that might be commercial or appealing, but in,
00:42:55within which I can put a, you know, a message that's important. Um, but, um, yeah,
00:43:02I think if you make an incredibly powerful creative film, um, like Kokomo city, they're
00:43:14going to buy it because it's so unique and special and different. And I've seen that now
00:43:21with buyers that if it's a really powerful film, they're going to buy it. It doesn't have to be,
00:43:27you know, a celebrity film. It could be about a very serious subject, but it's like the approach.
00:43:31That would be great. If it's a talented filmmaker, they're going to buy it.
00:43:34Matt, you were going to say something? No, I think to me also one of the scary
00:43:37trends is that I feel like executives aren't willing to take any risks on anything, especially
00:43:42not knowing what the end of a film will be. So for like someone who's making verite films,
00:43:48unless the second or third act is on a platter for them, they're not going to take a risk.
00:43:52And that's certainly something that I've seen through the last 20 years of doing this is that
00:43:56people are taking every year, it feels like they're less and less willing to take a risk.
00:43:59Well, it's crazy. So you're saying you cannot get financing for, this is after, you know,
00:44:06however, however many numerous other well-received docs for numerous platforms.
00:44:12And they're just, they were scared to do, and this is a celebrity.
00:44:17And a Grammy.
00:44:18And I literally, I mean, I had studios say John's not famous enough.
00:44:22Like numerous, numerous studios say that.
00:44:25He's on the, on TV.
00:44:27He was, uh...
00:44:29That's my famous enough.
00:44:30We have to make films that mean something to us, and we have to have that faith that like,
00:44:35you know, it's like, like you said, when you make a great, like someone's going to be, you have,
00:44:39and if the sad thing is, it's not always the case. And so we also have to find a way to help,
00:44:45you know, deal with the films that aren't being seen, that have been made. And, but we do have to
00:44:50also keep like...
00:44:51So Dee, you're in an interesting position right now. You're coming off a
00:44:57acclaimed first documentary film. And I'm sure you're thinking about what do you do next? Maybe
00:45:05you've already decided, I don't know. But just take us into that calculation of, uh, are any of these
00:45:11things that we're talking about, um, part of the equation of where you want to go next?
00:45:16Seeing other films, seeing your films and, um, other films in, uh, these competitions,
00:45:26it, it kind of like, you know, I was telling someone at Sundance, um, a couple days ago that
00:45:33one of my greatest fears for my next project or moving forward is that I really want to maintain
00:45:40the audacity of, I have the right. I want to maintain the audacity of leave me alone.
00:45:55Whether you give me money or not, I, this is what I, I, this is my purpose.
00:46:02This is my purpose. And, and I will be honest with you,
00:46:06I will be honest with you. The scary part is that I'm not scared. That's, that's the scary part. And,
00:46:12and, and, and, and, and, and, and besides telling
00:46:18important stories, which my next project is, is, is very important and it's just writing our faces and,
00:46:25and it, it has to be talked about. But
00:46:29like all of you, like, it's so important. Like, like you said, we're all activists, right? And we put our
00:46:41lives and our time for so long into one film. You have to hit so many points. You have to satisfy your soul.
00:46:56You have to make people proud. You have to speak for people.
00:47:04Can I just interject? I mean, the urgency of some of these stories is apparent, even in the things
00:47:14that have happened since they were made. And I'm sad to say that that's very much the case with
00:47:19Kokomo City, right? I mean, uh, can, can you update us on what's happened since your film was completed?
00:47:28Yeah. Um, in March, well, three months after Sundance, um, we lost Coco, the doll, in the film. And
00:47:41the entire purpose, the absolute motivation for me to do the film was to show
00:47:52an updated side to the transgender narrative. Press the reset button, press restart, and let me show you
00:47:59what's really happening. We're in love. We have support from our families. We have jobs. We're safe,
00:48:09and we love to laugh. That's all I wanted to do. That was it. And I tried to avoid trauma with all my heart.
00:48:18And Coco, I met her spontaneously through my best friend, told me that I didn't really need to talk
00:48:28to this girl. And as I'm driving to Atlanta from New York, like the crazy bitch that I am,
00:48:39I spoke to Coco on the phone, and within 30 seconds, she started crying.
00:48:43And it made me cry, obviously, because it was so genuine. And I knew how bad she, I heard a desperation
00:48:51in her voice, how bad she want to tell her story. And there are so many moments, haunting moments,
00:48:57in the film where she is just like, she knew. And on a personal note, she, one of the last DMs she sent me,
00:49:08I have to tell my, I have a story to tell before I leave this earth. That's what she said to me.
00:49:18And as tragic as it is, it's very
00:49:23divine and wonderful that I was able to meet her and film her and talk to her and hug her and
00:49:30and I'm sorry. And in the future, people are going to be able to find her when they need to hear her.
00:49:43That's, that's what it's about. Well, to close us on a, you know, a slightly happier note, I want to ask
00:49:55all of us here to just share, if you would, the feedback that you've received to the,
00:50:00your film being out in the world that has met, I don't want to say the most, because maybe there's
00:50:06ties or whatever, but among the most meaningful feedback that you've received. Roger, you want to
00:50:12start us off? Sorry, I have to take in what you just, what you just said. It's a lot to take in. And,
00:50:21and there's, I mean, I have to thank you for your, your, your, your strength and your bravery,
00:50:28because there's nothing stronger and more brave than a black woman and a black trans woman.
00:50:32I mean, hands down. Um, I, um, uh, you know, it's been incredible because
00:50:42I didn't know how, what to expect from different types of audiences, from black audiences and, and,
00:50:48and, and, and from, and from white audiences. And I've had both black people and white people
00:50:54and everyone in between come up to me in tears, you know, white people, their eyes open and transformed.
00:51:02Black people felt heard, you know, and there's this, um, point, there's this character in the film
00:51:08called Phyllis Wheatley, who was a young girl who was the first sort of artist, poet. Um, and she was
00:51:14recognized, she was questioned by the white, including John Hancock, the white men, and said,
00:51:19how could you have written these poems? And she had to prove it. And she, she proved that. And it's,
00:51:25well, it's what we call a Phyllis Wheatley moment. Um, because, you know, Kenji Brown Jackson, um,
00:51:32you know, many black women have had to prove themselves in front of, you know, white men. We
00:51:38all have a Phyllis Wheatley moment. And so I've had countless black people come up to me and want to
00:51:45tell me their Phyllis Wheatley moment and tears, because it's something that we have to deal with.
00:51:50We have to deal with the, the, the sort of, you know, web of racist ideas all around us as black
00:51:56people in America every day. And it is, it can be overwhelming. It can be, it can be so daunting.
00:52:03It's hard to like, you know, just move forward through it. So to feel heard and to be able to talk
00:52:10about, you know, your Phyllis Wheatley moment, um, that was really powerful to me. Um, and, and,
00:52:16and the response to the film. Yeah. It's interesting. Cause I, I feel like both of our
00:52:21films are about kind of the history of ideas, you know, and, um, and, uh, and that can be a hard
00:52:28thing to try to create a cinematic, um, immersive experience about, you know, and, um, and so, uh,
00:52:35I think the response is kind of similar. I think though, like we, we all need that. We all,
00:52:40we all hunger for that. Like, um, you know, getting some clarity about, um, the oppressive
00:52:47structures that are, that are harming us and kind of like the most intimate, um, parts of our life.
00:52:52And so for share height, you know, I think, um, there's a sense of kind of, uh, something being
00:53:00acknowledged, which is never acknowledged and discussed. And so, um, as I travel around the
00:53:07country, it really shifts like in Florida, you know, um, because of everything we were talking
00:53:14about, that's going on in Florida, people are really responding to Anita Bryant and seeing that
00:53:18footage of, of, um, of her war on LGBTQ people and, um, seeing, uh, you know, uh, the rise of the
00:53:28Christian right in the film. When I was in Ohio, women were coming up to me and literally couldn't
00:53:33even talk because they had friends who were like, uh, friends or relatives, whatever connections,
00:53:39um, who were really being harmed physically by the restrictive abortion laws.
00:53:42Um, and I think maybe the most meaningful thing to me is to have younger people coming up and feeling
00:53:50like, uh, knowing about the story of share height and, um, and, and having this topic resurfaced is,
00:53:57is healing to them because share was very prescient about how she looked at sexuality and gender.
00:54:02And so, um, even though the story is out of the second wave feminist movement,
00:54:06I think she was really looking at a world, um, that, um, would be, um,
00:54:15would provide equality and true democracy to people, um, regardless of how they express
00:54:20their sexuality or gender. And so, um, my hope is that younger, the younger generation will take her,
00:54:27um, as an icon. And I think one thing we can do as documentary filmmakers is kind of restore
00:54:32really important stories out of our history that have been forgotten to people in a way that
00:54:36is empowering and can, um, help fuel the movements of the future.
00:54:41When, when I talked to Michael J. Fox about doing this movie, he said one thing to me,
00:54:47he said, no violins.
00:54:52And, uh, I remember, um, being, when we're mixing the movie, there was violins in the music.
00:54:59And I was like, oh, fuck. I hope he was speaking metaphorically.
00:55:06But we are at Sundance and, uh, uh, and there's this moment where you see him wake up and we're
00:55:14used to Michael J. Fox as Marty McFly and jumping over the hoods of cars. And you see him when he's
00:55:20now 62 and he's struggling to walk to the bathroom and he's brushing his teeth and his hand is shaking.
00:55:26Um, and then he makes this joke. Um, um, um, and at the end of the screening, he just grabbed my hand,
00:55:33he squeezed it and just said, thank you.
00:55:37And I think it's a unit, it's a thing that we're kind of coming up in each one of our stories, which is like,
00:55:41you know, you, the gift that what we all do is we, we, we take people to a place that other people can't go or they
00:55:48misunderstand, even though these films are so different. Um, that's the gift that, that he can
00:55:54be seen in a way that he should be seen.
00:55:59I think one of the most memorable responses, um, it was actually the night of the premiere in Sundance.
00:56:08It's a black woman. She walked up to me, she was five months pregnant and she says, um,
00:56:14um, I can't wait for my husband to see this film. This film inspired me to love my child, my child
00:56:25differently. And it was such a relief because online we're so used to seeing things perpetuated,
00:56:34you know, or encouraged, you know, especially, I mean, the black community is holding on with dear
00:56:40life. Like we, we are so divided and we're so distracted and so weakened and torn down. And
00:56:47the last thing I want is the black woman to walk up to me and feel attacked or not seen or heard.
00:56:54So that moment she said that I, I just, it was just, it was relief.
00:56:58I mean, I think a couple of things, I think we're obviously living through a very heavy time right now.
00:57:03And I feel like a lot of the response to the film has been
00:57:07in admiring John Suleika and how they confront that heaviness, how they use art and creativity
00:57:15as a survival mechanism in their own words. And I think, I think on another level,
00:57:23I don't know, we all make these films for different reasons. And I always try to honor the truth.
00:57:30Truth is obviously very subjective, but I always try to honor the truth of those who I'm filming with.
00:57:35And so to, to screen the film for John and Suleika and to have them, you know, acknowledge that I,
00:57:43quote unquote, got them right, or got this moment in time right, um, that, you know, meant the world to me.
00:57:49Um, and as someone whose father who battled cancer for most of my life, whose life was miraculously
00:57:56saved at the very hospital that Suleika was treated at, it meant a lot to me to, to be able to tell a
00:58:01cancer story. Um, because I think all of us have been touched by cancer in some way. And so there's been,
00:58:08yeah, tons of people came up, you know, in tears, caregivers, patients, um, reacting to the film in that way.
00:58:15And so much of what everyone said, you know, just, um, I mean, for me, you know,
00:58:24the response of audiences, the emotional response of audiences, feeling this connection with people from
00:58:31halfway around the world who they'd never even probably thought of before and, you know, certainly
00:58:36would never have met has been so incredible. And, you know, just people wanting to advocate for North
00:58:44Koreans and North Koreans need us to do that because unfortunately they do not have the opportunity
00:58:51for their voices to be heard by themselves. Um, and then, and so that's so important to me,
00:58:56you know, that we are, when we talk about the nukes, we have to talk about the people every time,
00:59:01every fucking time. Um, and, uh, and then for the North Koreans who now have become like family
00:59:08for me and, um, just how much they are so happy and relieved and excited about this story coming
00:59:18forward. And they've been advocating with, they've been traveling with us, Soyeon, Pastor Kim, the Roe
00:59:23family, Washington DC, you know, protesting against the Chinese government, writing letters to the North
00:59:28Korean regime, like just the way that that's activated also because North Koreans are so often
00:59:34cut off from their family, as you see in our film with one person, that like this action, this advocacy
00:59:40is a way to feel connected to people who they may never speak to again. And, um, so it's been like the
00:59:46response on both sides, just like bringing people forward, bringing all of our people and messages
00:59:52forward that, that aren't necessarily being seen that we can help to bring and, you know, inspire
01:00:00compassion and hopefully some kind of change in this crazy world that we're in.
01:00:05Well, it's, it's obviously, uh, again, an incredible time for documentaries and in large part because of
01:00:14these six films that we're talking about today. They're very emblematic of that. So thank you guys for the
01:00:19work and for taking the time to be here and, um, enjoy the rest of the ride.
01:00:24Thanks a lot. Thank you. Thank you, Scott. Thank you for having us.
01:00:27Great. Great job.
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