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00:00:00Well, sadly, we start breakfast time today with the news that early this morning, a major bomb explosion rocked the Brighton Hotel, where Mrs. Thatcher and other conservative leaders are staying.
00:00:14The IRA bomb killed five, injured 33, and all but killed Mrs. Thatcher and senior members of her government.
00:00:21Over the last 12 years, the IRA's attacks on mainland Britain have claimed over 80 lives and caused more than 1,000 injuries.
00:00:28Their targets have been chosen to cause maximum psychological damage, hitting favorite shopping haunts or military and political figures.
00:00:51It was the perfect target. Absolutely the perfect target.
00:01:11We were always thinking in terms of how we would hit the British establishment.
00:01:18We were talking about those in government or their financiers, supporters, administrators, all of that we'd regarded as legitimate targets.
00:01:29I knew when the bomb was going off, but I had no means of knowing that I had gone off until the next morning.
00:01:49Did you manage to sleep that night?
00:01:51Fitfully. Not really, no.
00:01:56Why?
00:01:56Well, in anticipation that it would be discovered at the last minute or, you know, it wouldn't go off.
00:02:04Worse still, it wouldn't go off.
00:02:06You know, that you'd messed up and the connection wouldn't have been made.
00:02:12And that'd be your fault?
00:02:14It'd be completely my fault.
00:02:17We'd never get another opportunity like that again.
00:02:21It's going to turn on the wall.
00:02:23Let's see if it's turned on the wall.
00:02:26And I really need to have to sit here.
00:02:28There's a twist to your family.
00:02:30No.
00:02:31No.
00:02:32No.
00:02:43When it's all over, you really begin to realize the enormity of what happened.
00:02:48in church on sunday morning the sun was just coming to the stained glass windows and falling
00:02:55on some flowers right across the church and it just occurred to me that this was the day
00:03:02i was meant not to see
00:03:04is this the right way around yes you'll be on the left
00:03:17see if this takes you back into the spirit of brighton could you tap the space bar
00:03:25oh god i reckon this is the finest my opinion this is the finest nine mile probably probably
00:03:34not in europe this is in europe does this look familiar yes it is false
00:03:44my father was a clergyman in brighton so i knew the town quite well of course when you're
00:03:52small you love the whole concept of rock and the rest of it
00:03:59well the conservative party conference opens in brighton later this morning our papers reviewer
00:04:21is conservative party chairman john gummer who joins us in brighton is fine weather is it with you today
00:04:26well i don't think i've looked at the weather terribly much so far this morning but i i can hear
00:04:30it outside it doesn't sound terribly fine
00:04:32now can i warn you i cry all the time i am pathetic so if i do please stop of course thank you
00:04:50of course of course where's my darling where's this popping up and down
00:04:56how long ago did you meet we've been married for 47 years so it must be 50 years ago
00:05:13it's 50 years ago now later this year
00:05:19forgot about me just to look up
00:05:21can we have you both looking mad i don't know
00:05:25i think it was we both thought it was so silly
00:05:29everybody had their wives or husbands there and they all knew each other too
00:05:43as we would rush from one party to the next we'd cross and recross everybody trying to get to
00:05:50everything we'd say oh hi see you in a minute and it was all just jovial
00:05:56it is a great pleasure to introduce our principal guest this evening the prime minister the right
00:06:05honorable margaret platter
00:06:06the conference was one in which no one ever had said that this was a moment in which we had to be
00:06:26particularly careful we always were careful we that was part of what you did but i can't say that there
00:06:32was any circumstance in which police had said um this is a very special um occasion we've had
00:06:40warnings and such like looking back uh perhaps we should have
00:06:46in the last year and especially in the last few weeks there's been a very dramatic and very real
00:07:06revival in the ira's savage role in irish politics bomb explosions have been shattering property and lives
00:07:16i was living in unity flats which was a very small catholic enclave right at the start of the entrance to
00:07:38the loyalist west belfast the shankill road but really did feel like we were occupied and we were having to defend ourselves
00:07:51things that were happening that the british army doing in our district's doing on people i knew
00:07:55and those people been killed and then you were a witness to the incidents you know
00:08:00my understanding of it was that we were in like a real war situation in the fight against the british army
00:08:18we knew who our enemy was you know because they were pointing guns at us
00:08:22and they were sent over by politicians to point those guns at us
00:08:36the argument that terrorists always have is that they are forced to do what they're doing because
00:08:52of the incipient violence which has been played on them for generations or for previous times
00:09:01i don't think that justifies doing what the ira was doing i mean it is wicked to kill people
00:09:11it is wicked to blow people up it is wicked to leave bombs so that they could kill anybody without
00:09:19any kind of that's wicked
00:09:20the turning point for me was being arrested in 1972 they were scooping every young male nationalist at
00:09:37some point and bringing in questioning them and building up a dossier of information an overview of
00:09:44the district they used to call it going for your tea you're coming with us for your tea
00:09:49that meant you were going there suddenly became my turn
00:09:57they had something called the black room funny enough it's it's similar to this except a lot shorter
00:10:04and it had no roof on it it was like a port-a-cabin without a roof but uh when i was there i would
00:10:10have been manhandled you know like you know beaten up you know it shocked me i was it scared me i think
00:10:17i said no i've got to do something about this i'm not going to let them get away with this you know
00:10:21i'm not just going to be a victim here and so i did make a push and join the ira i never for a moment
00:10:27thought though that i'd be in the ira decades later you know
00:10:34this man has an insight into the ira's military thinking he's danny morrison of the ira's political
00:10:39wing provisional shin fein it's dead simple people complicated britain's no right to be here
00:10:47end of story but they must know that when they were here and when they were acting aggressively
00:10:53and shooting us down in the streets there was going to be a price to be paid
00:10:58why bomb england well obviously there's no saying that one bomb in england is worth 100 in ireland and
00:11:05that is true because we've seen that whenever people are killed in ireland that gets minimal
00:11:09coverage on british news but a small bomb in london gets coverage all over
00:11:21i've seen this sort of thing so many times before in northern ireland it doesn't amaze me
00:11:26perhaps i think the people in great britain that's to say scotland
00:11:30scotland and wales and england will now understand what they see here what's been happening all these
00:11:37years in northern ireland now take us into the perspective of a young man like patrick mcgee
00:11:45who decided to join the ira i can't remember what year he began working for me he uh worked on the
00:11:53fooblock the public news i was the editor pat was a he's brilliant at graphic design and
00:11:59brilliant crosswords but a very quiet intense you know deep thinker i mean a true asset to the
00:12:11republican struggle you know you know before you joined do you sort of have an internal thought
00:12:18process which asks questions about what you'll be winning and not willing to do well i can't remember
00:12:25a time when everything was sort of pre-figured out you know there's a constant turnover of personnel
00:12:32people being arrested or having to go on the run or being killed there was a high um turnover in
00:12:39engineers as we would call them you know people who were handy with explosives and suddenly i mean
00:12:45it was down to me to fill in the to fill the gap this this this was engineers are people that make
00:12:51bombs i was good at making them i guess you'd say i became proficient it's an attitude i think more
00:13:02than anything else it's about being grounded being careful thinking things through
00:13:07the circuitry involved is very basic it's so basic it has to be very simple you're talking about
00:13:16rigging an alarm clock up you know of a wire and a battery attached to it and then to a detonator and
00:13:23the arm comes round makes contact the bomb goes off you know creates circuit is created
00:13:30that was put into a bag and you or somebody else would be carrying that into a building
00:13:37and you or somebody else would be carrying that into a building in a building in a building
00:13:43reserve police officers from the metropolitan force have been drafted into brighton this week to
00:13:48help the sussex police cope with the tory party conference so how tight is the security surrounding
00:13:53the conference
00:13:56i would defend anybody's right to have republican views they can have whatever views they want it's a
00:14:03democracy but when the killing starts that's where you draw the line
00:14:10because i was northern irish i was always sent into the irish pubs
00:14:17when you go into a pub you walk in with your head down your eyes towards the floor you go straight
00:14:25to the bar and you have a pint preferably guinness our job was to build up intelligence which then led to
00:14:35evidence which then led to convictions so you were fishing anything any intelligence huge pressure on the
00:14:44police
00:14:44margaret thatch was surrounded by a protection team at all times there would have been sniffer dogs
00:14:53there would have been a search of the hotel so it would have been declared safe
00:15:01they would have spoken to the anti-terrorist squad you know of anything that are spoken with special
00:15:06branch in london who would have liaised with the garda and the ruc and if there was any whispers
00:15:12they would say oh we think there's a threat to thatcher
00:15:17but there were no whispers
00:15:21there is a special atmosphere to the conference hotel at a tory conference
00:15:25it's part cocktail party part sounding board for gossip rumor flattery even character assassination
00:15:32what will mrs thatcher say on the subject when tomorrow
00:15:35she makes her 10th conference speeches party leader she's come a long way in that time
00:15:41she'll see it's duller it's duller
00:15:55but it's much better not too close
00:15:58yes that's marvelous
00:16:05it's different all together
00:16:16it's fairly safe to say that you you were quite close to mrs thatcher at the time yes of course
00:16:20the great thing was that once mrs thatcher knew you were loyal she enjoyed a good argument and
00:16:28we used to have very good arguments late into the night it's just nerves you either sniff or you
00:16:35swallow or you gulp at that time the tory party was in the doldrums the government wasn't very good and
00:16:44there was a a sogginess about politics which uh she was determined to put right
00:16:52i think we all know in our hearts it's time for a change
00:16:56there was no mistaking the feeling that election fever is definitely in the air
00:17:11i'm just a little bit worried about the mornings in the provincials
00:17:30just now seven minutes seven minutes ago that's all right
00:17:32don't we don't know you have it's terrible news let's expect
00:17:35no i don't know about it
00:17:48i'll come i'll find you
00:18:02at precisely the time the explosion occurred mrs thatcher was seven miles away in north london
00:18:07she'd just made a speech about courage and compassion
00:18:12when mrs thatcher was given the news nobody knew that the victim was one of her closest friends
00:18:18the victim was one of her closest friends in the world
00:18:21how did the assassination of erie neve affect mrs thatcher do you think
00:18:27oh she was devastated of course devastated not only because of her friendship with him
00:18:32but because of the nearness that this brought the whole thing
00:18:39erie was a person of such rare qualities but no one knew that better than i
00:18:46if ever you were in difficulty there he was and just one more thing some devils built him
00:18:55they must never never never be allowed to triumph they must never prevail those of us who believe in
00:19:02the things that erie fought for will see that our views are the ones which continue to live on in this country
00:19:09she had total commitment to destroying this evil an historic day for britain mrs thatcher is now set
00:19:20to become britain's first mormon prime minister as well as the first in the western world in the words
00:19:26of erie neve whom we had hoped to bring here with us there is now work to be done
00:19:42well the real powerhouse of the place is a secretary's room under the leadership of
00:19:46robin butler who's my principal private secretary they're absolutely marvelous
00:19:51goodness me when did she say that you're absolutely marvelous yes sir glad she thought so
00:20:01my name is robin butler i was a career civil servant and i was
00:20:07head of margaret thatcher's office in 10 downing street
00:20:10margaret thatcher was physically demanding and uh one uh didn't get a lot of rest or or sleep
00:20:20yes okay so margot the pm's got a few minutes between meetings now so if you could take some work
00:20:29after her in the red box i can't say that i found her easy personally she was not the sort of person i
00:20:37would have wanted to go on holiday with
00:20:49i believe that social security payments to striker's families should be abolished
00:20:56and that unions should pay the cost of policing their own picket lines
00:21:00i thought the debate on law and order was just a little too very key for my taste i'd like something
00:21:06a little more stronger did you foresee the strength of character that mrs thatcher had oh she was
00:21:15obviously remarkable i mean let's be absolutely clear about that she had to do a whole series of very
00:21:23tough things and she had to show people that she was not as you know the ladies not for turning
00:21:31on the falklands she was not going to be turned on the ira
00:21:35she had a real understanding that once you'd set your hand to it you had to stick with it
00:21:41do you remember thatcher getting elected i do yeah uh i suppose believe it or not there was even part
00:21:53of the thought well as a woman you know um not necessarily politics but in itself it's innovative
00:21:59you know it's progress at a certain level you know it might make a difference
00:22:04thatcher thatcher was rather like a boxer who gets hit and gets knocked back onto the ropes
00:22:18but their reaction is not to lean against the ropes but immediately to come out and hit back
00:22:24their demand is for political status which means that they expect the government to treat
00:22:38them differently from other prisons because they allege a political motive for their crime
00:22:45faced now with the failure of their discredited cause the men of violence have chosen in recent months
00:22:53to play what may well be their last card
00:22:59now bobby sands the hunger striker and newly elected mp is thought to have no more than a few
00:23:04days to live the three irish mp who saw him yesterday have said he's determined to die
00:23:09unless the demands of the maize prisoners are met well now danny morrison you are bobby sands's
00:23:15own nominated spokesman up there in belfast does this now do you think mean that uh mr sands will
00:23:21either have to give in or to go ahead and die i would say i probably think about the hunger
00:23:30strikers every day and it's what 42 years now 43 years
00:23:36my son's offered his life for better conditions in prison but not cause further death outside
00:23:46that's all i can say how is he today
00:23:48the hunger strike lasted for seven months seven months for those seven months we our office was
00:24:00open 24 hours a day we slept on the floor
00:24:02this is an h block collection we ask you to give as kindly as you can that year in particular was so
00:24:11intransigent she had opportunities after opportunities to resolve it i asked the prime minister whether
00:24:18the government's policy of no concessions to the h block campaigners meant she was prepared to see an
00:24:23endless stream of hunger strikers die that is a matter for those who go on hunger strike and those
00:24:30who are encouraging them to do so i will not give political status or special category status to
00:24:37people who are in fact criminals and who are the enemies of society she was winning and she was
00:24:45determined she knew that the one thing she had to deal with was the terrorism
00:24:53they saw her as intolerably tough and therefore as somebody who really didn't understand
00:25:03but of course there was nothing to understand she killed people she killed people
00:25:14we were on our way up to wisdom when we got words that he had died yeah
00:25:19what was the last communication that you had from your brother the last message i talked to him
00:25:30yesterday he said he would end his hunger strike after british government
00:25:35would grant the five demands feeling that he says i believe i will die
00:25:55we knew the prisoners joe mcdonald who died joe mcdonald's wife's mother delivered me
00:26:03i was born at home in corby ways he delivered me joe and i were interned together in the 1970s
00:26:09cairn dogherty who died on hunger strike cairn was in the class below me in glennal cbs his brother michael
00:26:15sat behind me in in class in that school so we were all very very very close right and
00:26:21and when a hunger striker died it was your brother who died it was awful
00:26:35it was a definite concentration of thought after the hunger strike
00:26:53there was a real visceral need felt by many to you know respond
00:26:59to the trauma we've all come through during that period
00:27:05i wasn't at all political you know i was a little bit kind of oh we just need to love
00:27:22you know like meditate and i didn't tackle like the real issues um around that time
00:27:28i do remember the hunger striking time and being horrified that maggie thatcher refused to listen to
00:27:36them that really shook me
00:27:42around that time my cousin diana would have got engaged and married prince charles
00:27:50and i didn't even go to the wedding because the life i was having felt more real i spent a couple
00:27:59of years in the himalayas i lived without running water without electric very simply and you've seen
00:28:07that one a million times i'm sure have you oh that's how i lived look how happy
00:28:15i thought change happened through inner change i lived in peacetime and i was safe and it never
00:28:25occurred to me that i'll be affected by a bomb
00:28:33you're looking straight into that one aren't you yes it's just that at my age your neck shows your age
00:28:40um yes heavens someone once said that i had my face lifted i said it hadn't dropped yet but the next
00:28:54margaret thatrick was well in our sights at that stage
00:28:59you were looking for where she was available and the conferences were as a natural one
00:29:04so can you walk me through how how you how you sort of how you did it uh no i won't uh talk at all
00:29:15about any of the operational detail of that uh of the of you know the brighton uh uh operation
00:29:23what what can you say can you tell me that you you put the bomb three weeks beforehand in the room
00:29:30um i'm not too sure how long it was before it was certainly more than two weeks i think two and a
00:29:37half weeks might have been three weeks but i don't want to say anymore but the idea was that you could
00:29:44plant the bomb and leave exactly you know the thing was secreted and um you're away from the scene i ended
00:29:52up uh down in the county cork my concern would have been just to keep off safe i couldn't afford to be
00:30:04arrested i was under no illusion if i get caught i'm going down for 20 years and as it gets nearer and
00:30:11nearer the you know the time it's taken down yeah
00:30:25my name's leslie brett i was working as a sales manager in the pink coconut nightclub and discotheque in
00:30:44brighton brighton was like a huge fun palace there was nothing bad might have been lots of things
00:30:54naughty about brighton the most scary thing we had was the ghost train on the pier that wasn't very
00:30:59scary we would have extended a welcome to any politicians that were attending the conference
00:31:10busy it was let your hair down night the dance floor was packed i remember that because we were
00:31:16standing up at the top gallery leaning over sort of trying to pick out if there was anybody that we
00:31:21recognize but i do remember a lot of tuxedos and i do remember a lot of lovely dresses and ladies made
00:31:27up with their jewels that were obviously not normal pink coconut clients they were there to enjoy
00:31:34themselves in the evening after putting in i presume quite a hard day at the political conference
00:31:39it's to be turned on my name is edward berry my father was anthony berry
00:31:54my father was at the conference he was deputy chief whip so he would have been there in a professional
00:32:00capacity would your father have considered himself a target no the ira my father would not have considered
00:32:08himself a target i think a lot of these politicians of that era came in wanting to do good i'm under
00:32:16no illusion plenty of them like the idea of becoming powerful and uh my father wasn't one of those
00:32:23so this is a this is a photograph taken i think from 1964. this is my father's campaign to be elected
00:32:32member of parliament for southgate what he did was arrive with these four kids with little badges that
00:32:39said vote for daddy well why would you not you have me at the front we have my elder sister alexandra
00:32:49we have anya and joe i remember just being very proud that i was asking people to
00:32:58vote for my daddy who was so special to me the night before the bomb went off my father invited me to
00:33:07dinner he was enthusiastic um he was positive um we obviously had conversations about my life i was
00:33:15very excited about the new job that i was starting and he was very proud of that we then walked back
00:33:21um to the hotel to the grand hotel i said goodnight to him
00:33:32my last memory of my father is a man walking away from me
00:33:39full height he's a tall man six foot four in a you know a happy man
00:33:44everyone is a friend here you can recognize an enemy said one mp by the warmth of their greetings
00:33:54the insincerity of that kind is very calculated but there's a further element to the atmosphere for
00:34:00at this very moment mrs thatcher and her closest advisors are closeted upstairs working on her
00:34:06conference speech tomorrow what were you doing on the night of the 11th well we went off to all the
00:34:12things together as one did and then i went to bed and john went to the prime minister's suite
00:34:22to put the finishing touches to her speech for margaret thatcher the whole week had been taken up
00:34:29with preparing this speech i was sitting in this chair in margaret thatcher's suite hoping that the
00:34:37evening would end as soon as possible we were finishing off the speech doing the odd bits and
00:34:42pieces there wasn't much more to do and so it was at that point that i left her room to the room
00:34:48opposite pink coconut closed at two o'clock of course there would be a kind of 10 minutes shuffling the
00:34:56last people out onto the street for their cabs and i suppose by the time we left there it must have been
00:35:01about 10 to 3. there was a document on which the office wanted a decision from the prime minister
00:35:12by first thing next morning and she said if you don't mind i'd like to look at it and deal with it
00:35:19now i was sort of just dozing off to sleep i think or had just gone to sleep we were probably about
00:35:2620 yards shy of the corner of west street we crossed at the traffic lights i was tired almost sleepy
00:35:34everybody else had left her sitting room and she was going through this document
00:35:56i've never heard such a loud explosion in my life
00:36:09the ground trembled the way it would do with with an earthquake i presume my immediate thought was gas
00:36:16explosion i thought a gas boiler had gone up
00:36:21i heard this humongous noise dreadful dreadful noise and i somehow knew it must be a bomb
00:36:32there was a second bang which we thought was another bomb actually evidently it was that the roof
00:36:39had been lifted off and it came down again and therefore made this second bang and then there
00:36:46was silence i thought that john and mrs thatcher and robin butler were all lying sticky mess
00:36:56i thought to myself that's a bomb what should i do here i am alone with the prime minister
00:37:02and it's no doubt aimed at her i said get down on the floor so we all got down the floor i don't know
00:37:09quite what what we were supposed to be doing in that but it seemed to be the sensible thing to do so
00:37:13we all fell onto the floor i was on my knees opened the door like this and looked round the corner
00:37:21and on the other side i saw mrs thatcher's head come round the corner looking at me
00:37:28by this time a policeman appeared and we moved them into a room at the end of the corridor
00:37:34margaret thatcher broke away and went to the reception desk and she said was everybody accounted
00:37:39for and then we went were taken out of the back of the hotel where there was a car waiting
00:37:50i then got on with my own business which was what on earth had happened to penny the bomb was over
00:37:56there i was sure that she must be dead because that was where the sound came from
00:38:09the whole thing was just enveloped in this huge thick cloud of dust
00:38:14i could hear masonry falling i could hear metal scraping and people screaming which was the most
00:38:21dreadful dreadful thing to i mean it was just such a shock
00:38:28but i saw out the corner of my eye blue and white lights just like angels there was no noise
00:38:33no noise of engines heavy road trucks no sirens just blue and white lights flashing like little angels
00:38:40coming along and that was the fire service bless their hearts they turned from then on it was just
00:38:45so it was just total misery
00:38:56I ran out of our room
00:39:24and there was dust coming everywhere.
00:39:32It was a very big stairwell at the Grand Hotel
00:39:34and I suddenly saw this figure.
00:39:41I was covered in this white stuff
00:39:45that had all come down from the plaster
00:39:46and so the very first thing I heard was,
00:39:48have you seen John?
00:39:50And he said, it's me.
00:39:52So that was all right then.
00:39:55And how did you feel?
00:39:57Well, I, I, I'm just hugged her.
00:40:00That's all.
00:40:01I did feel it was the most amazing moment.
00:40:04And then, of course, you came back to reality.
00:40:11For Christ's sake, go away!
00:40:14As dawn broke, firemen were still searching
00:40:23what was left of Brighton's once Grand Hotel.
00:40:26The firemen are now getting close to Mr. Tebbett.
00:40:33He's in a crouching position
00:40:35with the rubble of his room more or less on his back.
00:40:38Remember the extraordinary feeling of being bundled hurly-burly
00:40:47in the midst of a mass of debris
00:40:49until one came to a rest.
00:40:52You were trapped for four hours, weren't you?
00:40:56Yes.
00:40:57But you were able to reach over to your, to your wife's hand.
00:41:00Yes, that's right.
00:41:01The weight of the debris had doubled her over
00:41:05and, um, we think probably it was not so much
00:41:09that the spine was damaged as the blood supply was cut off.
00:41:13Very well, thank you very much.
00:41:23Our worry is, uh, whether there's anyone under that rubble
00:41:28because I don't know whether you've seen it,
00:41:29but it's pretty awful.
00:41:31You hear about these atrocities, these bombs,
00:41:34you don't expect them to happen to you.
00:41:38But life must go on, as usual.
00:41:42And your conference will go on.
00:41:43The conference will go on.
00:41:44The conference, all right, all right, John,
00:41:46the conference will go on, as usual.
00:41:50Right.
00:41:51I should be sorry.
00:42:09A very good morning to you.
00:42:10It's now 6.30 on Friday, October the 12th.
00:42:14Well, sadly, we start breakfast time today with the news
00:42:16that early this morning, a major bomb explosion rocked
00:42:19the Brighton Hotel, where Mrs. Thatcher
00:42:21and other Conservative leaders are staying.
00:42:23The Prime Minister escaped unhurt,
00:42:25but tragically, two people were killed
00:42:27and 27 were injured.
00:42:33Tell me about hearing the morning news bulletin.
00:42:36Well, I think the first report was that a bomb had gone off
00:42:41and that two people had been killed.
00:42:43And that's all I needed to know, that it had gone off.
00:42:46I know the sound.
00:42:47This will sound crass and all of that.
00:42:49Then I slept.
00:42:51Then I slept.
00:42:51On the 12th of October, the phone rang
00:43:04at probably about 6 in the morning.
00:43:08And it was my sister, Jo.
00:43:10So I said, I don't know what you mean.
00:43:19She said, well, there's been a bomb at the Grand.
00:43:22I walked along, and the first thing I encountered
00:43:27was the Metropole Hotel.
00:43:30I went into a room full of people covered in dust,
00:43:34a lot of people still in nightwear,
00:43:37pyjamas, dressing gowns.
00:43:39I found myself looking for my father.
00:43:42At about half past seven in the morning,
00:43:48Margaret Thatcher appeared.
00:43:50I said to her, Prime Minister,
00:43:52I'm afraid it's much worse than we first thought.
00:43:55And she didn't hesitate for a moment.
00:43:57And she said, well, the conference is due to begin again at 9.30,
00:44:01and at 9.30 we must start.
00:44:03And I was incredulous.
00:44:04I said, this terrible thing has happened.
00:44:08Some of your closest colleagues have been killed.
00:44:11Others, seriously injured.
00:44:14The rescue's still going on.
00:44:16You can't mean to go on with a party political conference, can you?
00:44:24Maggie Thatcher started the conference.
00:44:27And I remember we were looking to see if Dad was there,
00:44:30if somehow maybe he'd got in without us noticing.
00:44:36I mean, we were glued to the TV to see
00:44:40what was happening.
00:44:43But unlike everyone else,
00:44:44we weren't watching
00:44:45unemotionally.
00:44:48We were, that was our dad
00:44:50we were looking for.
00:44:54That waiting is probably
00:44:56the hardest waiting ever.
00:44:58This is not good news.
00:45:06This is, this is all wrong.
00:45:08I've not heard anything.
00:45:09When we arrived,
00:45:28it was utter chaos.
00:45:31Ambulances, fire brigade turning up,
00:45:33more police officers screaming.
00:45:35More police officers screaming.
00:45:40All bomb scenes have this expectation
00:45:43of picking up body parts,
00:45:46being faced with very gruesome scenes.
00:45:49But at the time,
00:45:54you're not affected as such.
00:45:55It's something that hits later.
00:45:58To pick up a body part,
00:45:59put it,
00:46:00it's an exhibit,
00:46:01it's part of the crime scene.
00:46:03It was a stage where
00:46:10everyone had been accounted for,
00:46:12except one particular individual
00:46:15who had been on the sixth floor.
00:46:20And we went to that area.
00:46:22It was in a wardrobe,
00:46:23buried under rubble.
00:46:26And that's where we recovered
00:46:27the last body.
00:46:27And I would say that
00:46:31I've held the anger
00:46:33and the anguish of that
00:46:35ever since.
00:46:39I remember going into a pub
00:46:41in Cork City itself.
00:46:45The TV would have had
00:46:47huge coverage of the bomb.
00:46:49And I just tried to pick up
00:46:51the mood around the bar, you know.
00:46:54There was a lot of giggling
00:46:56and, you know,
00:46:57it went down well.
00:46:59And that sounds terrible.
00:47:00But it did.
00:47:02I mean, it was popular.
00:47:04For a lot of the people,
00:47:05it was revenge.
00:47:07It was felt as revenge,
00:47:08us getting one back.
00:47:10In Belfast,
00:47:11it would have been jubilation
00:47:12in our areas.
00:47:13Absolute jubilation.
00:47:16That raised people's hope
00:47:17that we would prevail.
00:47:19Are you also feeling,
00:47:21shit, I did that.
00:47:22I caused that pain.
00:47:24No.
00:47:24Or you'd be a hypocrite.
00:47:28We were there to do that.
00:47:30You know,
00:47:30the five people killed
00:47:33and those injured,
00:47:34I think it was about
00:47:3430-odd people injured.
00:47:39I wouldn't have felt
00:47:40beyond the label
00:47:41I'd apply to them,
00:47:42you know.
00:47:43There were Tories
00:47:44in conference.
00:47:46That was good enough.
00:47:46That justified it.
00:47:47What was your personal reaction
00:47:50to the bomb
00:47:51having gone off
00:47:53in Brighton?
00:47:53Well,
00:47:54now that I am old,
00:47:57you know,
00:47:57I find it
00:47:58the tragedy of death
00:47:59to be terrible,
00:48:01worse looking back.
00:48:02But at the time,
00:48:03to be honest,
00:48:04I probably regret
00:48:05that the IRA
00:48:05didn't kill her.
00:48:06The bomb attack
00:48:24on the Grand Hotel
00:48:25early this morning
00:48:27was first and foremost
00:48:30an inhuman,
00:48:33undiscriminating attempt
00:48:35to massacre
00:48:37innocent,
00:48:39unsuspecting men
00:48:40and women
00:48:41staying in Brighton
00:48:43for our conservative conference.
00:48:45And the fact
00:48:47that we are gathered here
00:48:49now,
00:48:51shocked,
00:48:52but composed
00:48:53and determined,
00:48:55is a sign
00:48:56not only that
00:48:57this attack
00:48:58has failed,
00:48:59but that
00:49:00all attempts
00:49:01to destroy
00:49:02democracy
00:49:03by terrorism
00:49:04will fail.
00:49:07She showed
00:49:08no weakness
00:49:09at all.
00:49:11These were
00:49:11her friends.
00:49:12These were people
00:49:13she'd worked with.
00:49:15These were people
00:49:16whom she cared about.
00:49:18And yet she knew
00:49:19she had to be
00:49:20above that.
00:49:22She put on
00:49:23a brave face,
00:49:24as you would expect
00:49:25afterwards.
00:49:26But there's no doubt
00:49:27in my mind
00:49:28that she knew
00:49:29that
00:49:31the hunger strikers,
00:49:33the comrades
00:49:33of the hunger strikers,
00:49:34could reach her.
00:49:37This government
00:49:38will not weaken.
00:49:42This nation
00:49:43will meet
00:49:44that challenge.
00:49:45democracy
00:49:46will prevail.
00:49:56They cheered
00:49:57and stamped
00:49:57their feet
00:49:58for more than
00:49:58seven and a half minutes.
00:49:59And that's the
00:50:16shattered hulk
00:50:17of the Grand Hotel
00:50:18Brighton
00:50:18until early this morning,
00:50:20the most stylish
00:50:21of settings
00:50:21for a party
00:50:22in power
00:50:22at its conference.
00:50:24Now,
00:50:24it's evidence
00:50:25of the most
00:50:25murderous attempt
00:50:26on the lives
00:50:27of an entire
00:50:27British cabinet
00:50:28there's ever been.
00:50:29It didn't take long
00:50:30today for someone
00:50:31to take responsibility,
00:50:32and that was
00:50:33the provisional IRA.
00:50:34A statement
00:50:35from Dublin
00:50:35this morning
00:50:36had a chill ring to it.
00:50:37Today,
00:50:38we were unlucky,
00:50:39but remember,
00:50:40we only have to be lucky
00:50:42once.
00:50:43You will have to be lucky
00:50:43always.
00:50:44Give Ireland peace
00:50:46and there will be no war.
00:50:48The first victim
00:50:49of that bomb
00:50:49to be named
00:50:50this evening
00:50:50was Anthony Berry,
00:50:52MP for Enfield,
00:50:53Southgate.
00:51:01As it happens,
00:51:02my father wore
00:51:04a signet ring,
00:51:06and he gave me
00:51:07the same ring
00:51:09which I wear.
00:51:10He gave it to me
00:51:12when I was 21.
00:51:12And someone said,
00:51:15well, perhaps
00:51:15we can use this
00:51:16to identify.
00:51:17So they took
00:51:18my ring away.
00:51:20My brother rings
00:51:21from a call box.
00:51:23They'd found his body,
00:51:25and he'd identified
00:51:26the body
00:51:27with his own
00:51:28signet ring.
00:51:31This is the moment
00:51:32we all had sort of
00:51:33been dreading,
00:51:34but there was
00:51:35a certain inevitability
00:51:36that we knew
00:51:37that my father died.
00:51:38I just had
00:51:43to get out
00:51:43of the house.
00:51:45So I'm walking
00:51:45down the road
00:51:46with my hand
00:51:47going up and down,
00:51:49and I didn't care
00:51:50what people
00:51:51were thinking of me.
00:51:52I was just going,
00:51:53Dad's dead.
00:51:54Dad's dead.
00:51:54I've just got to realise
00:51:55this dad's dead.
00:51:56My dad's dead.
00:51:57He's been killed.
00:51:57He's dead.
00:51:58I remember
00:51:59a builder
00:52:01high up on a building
00:52:03looking down at me
00:52:04and going,
00:52:05come on, love,
00:52:05give us a smile.
00:52:06It can't be that bad.
00:52:07And I looked up
00:52:09and I said,
00:52:10it is,
00:52:11my dad's been killed.
00:52:13A memorial service
00:52:14was held in London
00:52:15for Sir Anthony Berry,
00:52:17the Conservative MP
00:52:18who was killed
00:52:19in the Brighton bombing.
00:52:21The pain was
00:52:22like nothing
00:52:24I'd ever experienced
00:52:25before.
00:52:25I was waning,
00:52:26I was screaming,
00:52:27and I was like,
00:52:28how am I going
00:52:30to recover?
00:52:30And I thought
00:52:31I was going to die
00:52:32in the depth
00:52:33of the emotions
00:52:34that I had.
00:52:36It was too much.
00:52:37The pain was too much.
00:52:42The me that I've talked about,
00:52:43the free spirit
00:52:44believed in meditation,
00:52:45also died in that bomb.
00:52:47Like,
00:52:47she did not exist anymore.
00:52:50Because now
00:52:51I'm in a war.
00:52:55The five who died
00:52:56were Sir Anthony Berry,
00:52:57the Conservative MP
00:52:58for Southgate,
00:52:59Eric Taylor,
00:53:00Chairman of the
00:53:01Northwest Area Conservatives,
00:53:03Roberta Wakeham,
00:53:03wife of the
00:53:04Government Chief Whip,
00:53:05Mrs. Jean Shattuck,
00:53:06the wife of the
00:53:07Western County's Chairman,
00:53:08and Mrs. Muriel McLean,
00:53:10the Scottish President's wife.
00:53:14Do you remember
00:53:15a point
00:53:15that it began
00:53:16to sink in
00:53:17that five lives
00:53:18had been lost
00:53:19and some of them
00:53:20were close friends?
00:53:22It was a slow thing.
00:53:23It started on the day
00:53:26and just became
00:53:28more and more
00:53:29clear,
00:53:30visiting Norman
00:53:31Tibbet and seeing
00:53:32the terrible condition
00:53:33in which both
00:53:34he and Margaret were.
00:53:37Of course,
00:53:37you became
00:53:38utterly aware
00:53:39of the awfulness
00:53:41of what had happened.
00:53:42when did you hear
00:53:45that your friend
00:53:46Roberta Wakeham
00:53:48had lost her life?
00:53:50I don't know.
00:53:52When I heard
00:53:53that she'd lost her life,
00:53:56but the awful thing was
00:53:59I could suddenly
00:54:00hear her laughing.
00:54:01It is absolutely
00:54:05my belief
00:54:05that once people die,
00:54:08somehow,
00:54:09they sort of
00:54:10go round
00:54:11people they've known.
00:54:13Yeah.
00:54:15She was one of
00:54:16the good mates
00:54:16amongst the wives.
00:54:19And I can tell
00:54:20it was a terrible shock,
00:54:21all of this.
00:54:23Oh.
00:54:23Yeah.
00:54:24I mean,
00:54:25what can you say about it?
00:54:27Well, you don't imagine it.
00:54:28Ten weeks ago,
00:54:38an IRA bond
00:54:39devastated the Grand Hotel Brighton,
00:54:41killed five,
00:54:42injured 33,
00:54:44and all but killed
00:54:45Mrs. Thatcher
00:54:45and senior members
00:54:46of her government.
00:54:47Today,
00:54:48Brighton police
00:54:49made a fresh appeal
00:54:50for information
00:54:51about a guest
00:54:51who stayed in the hotel
00:54:52in September
00:54:53using a false name
00:54:55and address.
00:54:58At Scotland Yard,
00:55:07fingerprint experts
00:55:08positively identified
00:55:09the missing guest
00:55:10as Patrick Joseph McGee,
00:55:12a Belfast man
00:55:14in his 30s
00:55:14and a well-known
00:55:16member of the IRA.
00:55:17His one distinguishing feature,
00:55:19a finger missing
00:55:20on his right hand.
00:55:23Would it be an exaggeration
00:55:25to say one of the most
00:55:26wanted men in the world
00:55:26at that point?
00:55:28Well, I guess that must
00:55:29have been the case.
00:55:30Of course it was, yes.
00:55:33I worked at,
00:55:33always working the principle,
00:55:35what information
00:55:36do they have about you
00:55:37and how you look?
00:55:38And all they have
00:55:38are photographs
00:55:40when I'm arrested.
00:55:42So,
00:55:43I was pretty convinced
00:55:43all I had to do
00:55:44was ensure
00:55:44it didn't look like,
00:55:45you know,
00:55:46my mug shots.
00:55:47This was the number one
00:55:54priority
00:55:54of all police officers
00:55:56in the United Kingdom.
00:56:00Our job was
00:56:01to follow the sympathisers
00:56:04and see if they lead us
00:56:05to McGee.
00:56:08The longer and longer
00:56:10he was at liberty,
00:56:11the more the pressure grew.
00:56:14Where is this man?
00:56:15Why haven't you caught him?
00:56:17England was
00:56:18a big field of haystacks
00:56:19where we could lose
00:56:20a needle in.
00:56:22The commitment I made
00:56:23at the time
00:56:23was to be out of the country
00:56:24for two years.
00:56:36You just kept it tight.
00:56:38Because, you know,
00:56:39this is the only way
00:56:40you can survive.
00:56:41I was on my own
00:56:42most of the time.
00:56:43But, you know,
00:56:44you're used to your own,
00:56:45you know,
00:56:46you're used to that.
00:56:47You get used to that.
00:56:50At this particular stage,
00:56:52I had actually split up.
00:56:54I didn't have,
00:56:55you know,
00:56:55my wife at the time.
00:56:56I was married.
00:56:57But we had split up.
00:56:59Largely because
00:56:59I was away too much,
00:57:00you know,
00:57:01because of being active.
00:57:02It took its toll.
00:57:04I mean,
00:57:05there was one period
00:57:05when I was away
00:57:06for eight months.
00:57:09And, you know,
00:57:09there's not many relationships
00:57:10I think can survive.
00:57:12No contact at all
00:57:13for eight months.
00:57:14None,
00:57:15not even a letter,
00:57:16phone call,
00:57:16no contact at all.
00:57:19Did you have,
00:57:20did you have children
00:57:21at this point?
00:57:22I had some.
00:57:24How old was your son?
00:57:25He would have been
00:57:25about six.
00:57:26He was six.
00:57:29When you're looking back
00:57:30on it,
00:57:31that's probably
00:57:31the source
00:57:32of greatest regret,
00:57:34the impact
00:57:35on, you know,
00:57:36your loved ones.
00:57:38I feel
00:57:38hugely conflicted
00:57:41about that.
00:57:42You know,
00:57:42I'll carry that
00:57:43and I still
00:57:44will always carry that.
00:57:45That's part of the price.
00:57:52We were told
00:57:54that someone
00:57:56may be coming across
00:57:57from Northern Ireland
00:57:58and we were to go
00:58:00to Scotland
00:58:01for the operation.
00:58:04Our job was
00:58:06to monitor
00:58:06Peter Sherry.
00:58:08He was suspected,
00:58:10I have to say suspected,
00:58:11of killing
00:58:11at least nine people.
00:58:14And the RUC
00:58:15were telling us
00:58:16to follow this guy.
00:58:18Okay,
00:58:18don't lose him.
00:58:22There's a little bit
00:58:23of theatre involved
00:58:24in surveillance.
00:58:27It's an art form.
00:58:29One of the ways
00:58:31that surveillance
00:58:32watch people
00:58:33is to pretend
00:58:34to be a kissing couple.
00:58:38A female officer
00:58:39and a male officer
00:58:40sat down
00:58:41in the railway station
00:58:43and started
00:58:45canoodling
00:58:45and stroking hair.
00:58:47Meantime,
00:58:48they're watching Sherry.
00:58:49she had an earpiece
00:58:54and the female officer
00:58:57said,
00:58:58ah,
00:58:58there's a meat.
00:59:01She said,
00:59:02I think it's McGee.
00:59:04The first thing
00:59:05that came back was,
00:59:06are you sure
00:59:07it's McGee?
00:59:09When they're talking,
00:59:10I noticed
00:59:11Pat's missing
00:59:12part of his finger.
00:59:14So I came out
00:59:16and I said,
00:59:17it's McGee.
00:59:20We followed them
00:59:22to a flat
00:59:22in Glasgow.
00:59:25I remember
00:59:26we were sitting
00:59:27around having a meal.
00:59:28I think we had plans
00:59:29to go out that evening.
00:59:31There was some concern
00:59:33that the landlord
00:59:35was due
00:59:36to come round
00:59:37to collect the rent.
00:59:38and so
00:59:40when there was
00:59:40a knock on the door,
00:59:42I went
00:59:42half anticipating
00:59:44the landlord.
00:59:46As soon as
00:59:46he opened the door,
00:59:47I knew it was the police.
00:59:49I just remember saying,
00:59:50can I help you?
00:59:52Yes,
00:59:52can I help you?
00:59:53You know,
00:59:54well,
00:59:55this was happening,
00:59:56this split second
00:59:57that was so fast,
00:59:58suddenly there was
00:59:59other bodies appeared
00:59:59and rushed
01:00:00in
01:00:01and
01:00:02captured the others.
01:00:05A cache
01:00:05of explosives
01:00:06and arms
01:00:07which could be
01:00:07one of the biggest
01:00:08terrorist halls
01:00:09ever made in Britain
01:00:10has been uncovered
01:00:11by police
01:00:12in the block of flats
01:00:13they've been searching
01:00:14in Glasgow.
01:00:15The terrorist bomb factory
01:00:17contained timing devices
01:00:18which were already running,
01:00:20guns, ammunition
01:00:21and enough explosives
01:00:22to make a bomb
01:00:23ten times bigger
01:00:24than the one
01:00:25which wrecked
01:00:25the Grand Hotel
01:00:26in Brighton.
01:00:27Sixteen explosions
01:00:28had been planned
01:00:29using long-delay bombs.
01:00:32They were to hit
01:00:32London
01:00:33and a dozen
01:00:34seaside resorts
01:00:35at the height
01:00:36of the summer season.
01:00:37I have to tell you
01:00:39that the Scottish police
01:00:40were very large gentlemen
01:00:42and I get in the driver's seat
01:00:44and I look in the mirror
01:00:46and there's these
01:00:48two huge
01:00:49Glasgow police officers
01:00:50and Patrick McGee
01:00:52and I look in the mirror
01:00:54and I go,
01:00:55ah, Pat
01:00:56and his eyes
01:00:59were looking
01:01:00straight at me
01:01:01and it was like
01:01:02looking at the eyes
01:01:02of a shark.
01:01:04Cold eyes,
01:01:06you know.
01:01:07He's thinking,
01:01:08you can see his eyes thinking.
01:01:11I was looking
01:01:11a way out of it.
01:01:12I was looking,
01:01:13you know,
01:01:13really desperate thinking,
01:01:15you know,
01:01:15about looking for any angle,
01:01:17some way
01:01:18of taking advantage
01:01:19of a situation
01:01:20and hopefully
01:01:21in the chaos
01:01:22getaway,
01:01:23you know,
01:01:24it's impossible.
01:01:26Good evening.
01:01:27The man who tried
01:01:28to blow up
01:01:28the Prime Minister
01:01:29and most of her cabinet
01:01:30is tonight
01:01:31beginning a life sentence
01:01:32in prison.
01:01:34Guilty of the murder
01:01:35of five leading members
01:01:36of the Tory party
01:01:37at their conference
01:01:38in 1984.
01:01:39We were looking
01:01:43at some of the headlines.
01:01:45The killer
01:01:45in room 629.
01:01:47That's from the Daily Star.
01:01:49Oh, dear.
01:01:49I missed that one.
01:01:52You're going to have that,
01:01:53no?
01:01:53No.
01:01:54I'm kidding.
01:01:55This is the times
01:01:55you're called inhuman.
01:01:57Mm-hmm.
01:01:59Yeah, I remember that one.
01:02:00Yeah.
01:02:04I refused to stand
01:02:05for the judge
01:02:06so I had this process
01:02:07of being dragged
01:02:08on my feet
01:02:08and held,
01:02:10you know,
01:02:11while given the verdict.
01:02:14I didn't want
01:02:15to convey to him
01:02:16that I was taking
01:02:17what he had to say
01:02:18with any sort of wit.
01:02:19What he had to say
01:02:20didn't matter.
01:02:23And it didn't.
01:02:26This week,
01:02:27the man who tried
01:02:28to kill you
01:02:29and indeed killed
01:02:31some of your dearest friends
01:02:32was convicted
01:02:33at the Old Bailey.
01:02:35What's your reaction?
01:02:36What's your feeling
01:02:37seeing those verdicts?
01:02:38brought it brought her.
01:02:39Whatever the violence,
01:02:40to whomsoever it occurs,
01:02:42I hope those who perpetrate
01:02:43it will be brought
01:02:44to justice
01:02:45because it matters
01:02:46to the whole stability
01:02:47of our society.
01:02:49Do you have any
01:02:50personal feelings
01:02:52towards Patrick McGee?
01:02:53I have no personal feelings
01:02:55except a total hatred
01:02:56and contempt for violence.
01:02:58You voted in the past
01:03:00for the return
01:03:00of capital punishment.
01:03:01If ever there was a case
01:03:03for the sort of offense
01:03:04which you and people
01:03:06who think like you
01:03:06on that issue
01:03:07would hang a man for,
01:03:09it is this, isn't it?
01:03:10I have always voted
01:03:12for the return
01:03:12of capital punishment.
01:03:14I don't believe
01:03:14that people should be able
01:03:15to go out
01:03:16and do the most hideous crimes.
01:03:18Prime Minister,
01:03:19thank you very much
01:03:20for talking to us.
01:03:21I didn't notice
01:03:43any change
01:03:44in Margaret Thatcher
01:03:45as a result
01:03:46of the bomb incidents.
01:03:49But I think
01:03:50that her utter defiance
01:03:52did in the end
01:03:54cause her downfall.
01:03:58Ladies and gentlemen,
01:04:01we're leaving Downing Street
01:04:02for the last time
01:04:03after 11 and a half
01:04:05wonderful years.
01:04:09When she left,
01:04:11we were all
01:04:12in our trenches still.
01:04:15There was complete
01:04:16stalemate.
01:04:18She was an impediment.
01:04:20The peace.
01:04:22To us,
01:04:23she represented war.
01:04:27I don't regard
01:04:29the British government
01:04:30as having beaten
01:04:31the IRA.
01:04:34What I do regard them
01:04:36as having achieved
01:04:37was the defeat
01:04:38of violence
01:04:39as a means
01:04:41of achieving
01:04:42political ends.
01:04:44It was the fact
01:04:46that the British government
01:04:47were staunch
01:04:49and in particular
01:04:50Margaret Thatcher
01:04:51was a leader in that
01:04:52that in the end
01:04:54I think caused
01:04:55the nationalists
01:04:56to decide
01:04:57that it had to be
01:04:58achieved by politics
01:05:00or by negotiation.
01:05:02That's him.
01:05:21That's him, okay.
01:05:22We didn't know
01:05:26he was coming out
01:05:26of prison.
01:05:29I turn on the TV.
01:05:31The man who plotted
01:05:32to murder Margaret Thatcher
01:05:33and her entire cabinet
01:05:35in the Brighton bombing
01:05:36has been released
01:05:37from prison.
01:05:38He's free.
01:05:39My dad's not free.
01:05:40My dad can't come back.
01:05:42How is this justice?
01:05:44The trial judge
01:05:45said he should serve
01:05:46at least 35 years.
01:05:49Now he's free
01:05:49after just 14 years
01:05:51in jail
01:05:51much to the anger
01:05:53of conservative MPs.
01:05:56Are you angry?
01:05:58I'm not terribly pleased.
01:06:01I don't believe
01:06:02you can ever
01:06:02achieve peace
01:06:04without justice
01:06:05and what has happened
01:06:08is unjust.
01:06:13I remember
01:06:15looking into his eyes
01:06:17and thinking
01:06:17does he feel
01:06:18any remorse?
01:06:24There he is.
01:06:24Front seat.
01:06:25Front right.
01:06:28He's just whisked away.
01:06:32And what was that
01:06:32making you think
01:06:33and feel?
01:06:34Well, I'd like
01:06:35to meet him.
01:06:40I mean,
01:06:41you're literally
01:06:42knocking on the door
01:06:44about to go in
01:06:44and meet the daughter
01:06:45of somebody
01:06:45who'd died in Brighton.
01:06:48And, well,
01:06:49that's pretty daunting.
01:06:53I shook his hand
01:06:55and said,
01:06:56thank you for coming.
01:06:58And I remember
01:06:58looking at him
01:06:59and thinking,
01:07:00you don't look like
01:07:02my dear the terrorist.
01:07:07He started off
01:07:08by giving me
01:07:09a lot of
01:07:11justification
01:07:12of his cause.
01:07:14I went there,
01:07:15as I said,
01:07:15with this feeling
01:07:16and obligation
01:07:17of explaining
01:07:18our intent,
01:07:20what our purpose
01:07:21was in
01:07:21targeting Brighton.
01:07:24I was about
01:07:25to leave
01:07:25because
01:07:26I saw him
01:07:28justifying
01:07:29killing my father
01:07:30and that was difficult.
01:07:32and then he said
01:07:35to me,
01:07:35tell me about
01:07:36your anger
01:07:37and your rage.
01:07:40She was telling me
01:07:41things about her father.
01:07:42She talked about her,
01:07:44about his own
01:07:45kind of view
01:07:45of the world.
01:07:47He was a family man.
01:07:48He was a caring,
01:07:50compassionate politician.
01:07:52He was wonderful
01:07:54and that I
01:07:56missed him.
01:07:58She wasn't hitting me
01:07:59over the head with it.
01:08:00This is the man you killed.
01:08:01She was just explaining
01:08:02something about
01:08:05her loss.
01:08:08And then in my head
01:08:09something clicked.
01:08:10It says,
01:08:10I killed this guy.
01:08:13You know,
01:08:14who
01:08:15at some level,
01:08:17many levels,
01:08:19created this woman.
01:08:21You know,
01:08:21and that's shattering.
01:08:22that realisation.
01:08:26At some level,
01:08:27I'd reduced him
01:08:28to all he stands for
01:08:29to the point
01:08:30where he's this cipher
01:08:31who, you know,
01:08:33you can take this action against.
01:08:36I had been reduced.
01:08:39Something on me
01:08:40had been narrowed.
01:08:41narrowed.
01:08:43That's
01:08:44then when he stopped.
01:08:46He like ran out of words
01:08:48and he just looked at me
01:08:49and he
01:08:50took off his glasses
01:08:51and
01:08:51he rubbed his eyes
01:08:53and just said,
01:08:55I don't know
01:08:56who I am anymore.
01:08:57I remember
01:09:01I remember
01:09:03saying to Jo
01:09:03that I'm sorry
01:09:04I killed your dad.
01:09:06You know,
01:09:06and
01:09:06she said
01:09:08a very extraordinary thing.
01:09:10Well,
01:09:10the words just popped
01:09:11out of my mouth.
01:09:15I'm so glad it's you.
01:09:22What on earth
01:09:23did you mean?
01:09:24I couldn't have
01:09:28predicted
01:09:29that
01:09:29he would go
01:09:31on this journey
01:09:32to
01:09:33move from
01:09:35a,
01:09:35from justifying
01:09:36to being open
01:09:38and vulnerable.
01:09:40Because if he hadn't,
01:09:43I wouldn't have met him
01:09:44a second time.
01:09:46Roughly how many
01:09:47times have you met
01:09:49with Patrick McGee
01:09:51between then
01:09:52and now
01:09:54three or four hundred
01:09:55times?
01:10:00So,
01:10:01the gritty bit.
01:10:04Yeah,
01:10:04I mean,
01:10:05take this off my hands.
01:10:07No,
01:10:07I'm not going to.
01:10:08I'll let you go through
01:10:09the pain
01:10:10and I'll just decide
01:10:10what I'm going to say.
01:10:13If you hold it together,
01:10:14if you could,
01:10:16you may have seen this before,
01:10:17but if not,
01:10:18I'd be interested
01:10:18to see what it...
01:10:20Jo wanted to meet again.
01:10:22Pat said yes.
01:10:26There's no right
01:10:27for me
01:10:29to sit here
01:10:31and be forgiven.
01:10:33I mean,
01:10:33in a sense,
01:10:33it's a political thing.
01:10:34I knew what I was doing
01:10:35and I would even defend
01:10:37actions I've taken,
01:10:38et cetera.
01:10:39But I think
01:10:40it's very important
01:10:41to be confronted
01:10:43by the consequences,
01:10:45to be confronted
01:10:46with your pain.
01:10:47That's a consequence
01:10:48that I,
01:10:50you know,
01:10:50I suppose I deserve
01:10:51because there's always
01:10:53a price to pay for it
01:10:54in terms of my humanity.
01:10:55I have no emotion.
01:11:04I really don't.
01:11:05I'm sorry.
01:11:06I just...
01:11:07I have...
01:11:09I have nothing
01:11:10to offer
01:11:12on the subject
01:11:12of this gentleman.
01:11:15What's going through your head?
01:11:18I don't know
01:11:19if it should go on camera.
01:11:21I wonder what it really
01:11:22feels like inside his head.
01:11:24I wonder
01:11:25what his mum thinks.
01:11:29Well,
01:11:30the reason he did it
01:11:32was because
01:11:32he believed in his cause.
01:11:35He felt so strongly
01:11:36about it
01:11:37that he took these
01:11:38extraordinarily strong actions.
01:11:41But...
01:11:41Terrible actions.
01:11:45I mean,
01:11:46for him to use
01:11:47the word humanity
01:11:48is just disgraceful.
01:11:51Who does he think he is?
01:11:52the people
01:11:54he's maimed
01:11:55and killed.
01:11:57If my sister
01:11:58is on this particular journey,
01:12:01if it does good,
01:12:03then that's...
01:12:04that's fine with me.
01:12:10I did meet Patrick.
01:12:12They were having
01:12:13this presentation.
01:12:14I sneaked up
01:12:17on Patrick
01:12:17again
01:12:18and said,
01:12:19Patrick,
01:12:20I'm behind you.
01:12:21Oh,
01:12:22Brian,
01:12:23is that you?
01:12:25And I shook his hand
01:12:26and a lot of my colleagues
01:12:28said,
01:12:28you shouldn't have done that.
01:12:29I said,
01:12:30look,
01:12:31he's
01:12:31changed.
01:12:34He's adjusted.
01:12:36He's
01:12:37analysed
01:12:37what he did.
01:12:39Now he understands
01:12:40the consequences.
01:12:41He's met
01:12:41the daughter
01:12:42of someone
01:12:43he's killed.
01:12:45Hello,
01:12:46John.
01:12:47Clothes of the lake
01:12:48are coming across?
01:12:49Stormy?
01:12:49Chubby?
01:12:50Um,
01:12:50yeah,
01:12:50yeah,
01:12:51yeah,
01:12:51yeah.
01:12:51Let's get in that car.
01:12:53It's going to be wet.
01:12:53Are you okay?
01:12:54Have you got a coat?
01:12:55You'll need it.
01:12:58Why did Pat
01:13:00meet Joe?
01:13:01Because he's honest.
01:13:02He's an honest person.
01:13:05He was involved
01:13:06in a conflict.
01:13:08He didn't invent
01:13:09the conflict.
01:13:11He responded
01:13:12to the conflict.
01:13:14So,
01:13:15what Pat
01:13:15is doing
01:13:16is actually
01:13:16confronting
01:13:18the truth here
01:13:19and
01:13:20the outworkings
01:13:22of the
01:13:23consequences
01:13:24of one's actions.
01:13:28Is there a conclusion
01:13:29you want to reach
01:13:30with him?
01:13:31Is there something
01:13:32he can say
01:13:33or do
01:13:34that
01:13:35would make you feel
01:13:36like,
01:13:36ah,
01:13:37we've got there?
01:13:37Hmm.
01:13:40Well,
01:13:41is there a place
01:13:42to get to?
01:13:44But if there is
01:13:45such a place,
01:13:46it would be
01:13:46him
01:13:48saying
01:13:49nothing is worth
01:13:52killing someone for.
01:13:55He says that
01:13:56he will never
01:13:57forgive himself
01:13:58because he
01:14:01isn't saying
01:14:02what he did
01:14:02was wrong.
01:14:04Because he's
01:14:05holding on
01:14:06that they
01:14:07had no choice.
01:14:11Like,
01:14:12how,
01:14:13as human beings,
01:14:14how can we deal
01:14:15with the fact
01:14:15that we've killed?
01:14:19You know,
01:14:19I don't know.
01:14:20I think I know.
01:14:23I don't know.
01:14:24Do you think
01:14:39learning this,
01:14:40you know,
01:14:41that's the
01:14:42right.
01:14:42You know,
01:14:43you know,
01:14:44do you think
01:14:44Do you think learning this would make it impossible for you to carry out something like the Brighton Bond ever again?
01:14:59I think the very fact that you know more about a person makes it impossible.
01:15:04Impossible for what?
01:15:06To hurt them.
01:15:08So on that level, yes, the usual, it sounds like a cop-out, but it isn't.
01:15:19When people don't have resources or don't feel they have alternatives, that happens, violence happens.
01:15:25The work with Joe has been my response.
01:15:38Further first-hand testimony of the Brighton Bond follows on BBC4 now.
01:15:51If you've been affected by bereavement or the troubles, you'll find details of organisations offering information and support at the BBC Action Line website.
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