- 2 months ago
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00:00:00That day never leaves you.
00:00:05You think about it every second of every day.
00:00:13But we'll be out, oh, Ollie would love that.
00:00:15Or, oh, Ollie would do that.
00:00:17Or, you know, that kind of stuff's always in your head.
00:00:24Ollie was 13,
00:00:27and the two boys that murdered Ollie.
00:00:30They were 13 and 14.
00:00:35I don't understand what makes a child think that murder's OK.
00:00:40One of them sent a message after the stabbing saying, it is what it is.
00:00:46But how did they get the knife and what led them to use it?
00:00:50The number of young people being sentenced for murder has soared over the last decade.
00:01:00We want to know whether the 12-year-old boys who committed murder with a machete,
00:01:04whether they should be named.
00:01:06I cried. I cried every day and night.
00:01:09Why not just take one day and a third?
00:01:12Why not just take one day and a third?
00:01:13You, telegraph, telegraph, don't you?
00:01:14Is there any serious bleeding?
00:01:15Yes, it's very serious.
00:01:16Social media is featuring far too frequently an incidence of murder
00:01:18in the case of murder.
00:01:19We want to know whether the 12-year-old boys who committed murder with a machete,
00:01:21whether they should be named.
00:01:22You, telegraph, telegraph, don't you?
00:01:23Is there any serious bleeding?
00:01:24Yes, it's very serious.
00:01:25Social media is featuring far too frequently an incidence of murder and serious violence in
00:01:43this country.
00:01:45We really can't underestimate how social media has impacted our young people.
00:01:49It's a wake-up call.
00:01:50This is serious as a get-shit, okay?
00:01:53Has anybody threatened you?
00:01:54I can't remember.
00:01:55I shouldn't be standing here talking about children carrying knives and using them against
00:02:03other children.
00:02:04If children this young could commit murder, where does that leave us as a society?
00:02:09No police don't cast contact!
00:02:11Show me your hands now!
00:02:20Two 12-year-old boys appeared in court today charged with murder.
00:02:35Yes, you heard right.
00:02:3612 years old.
00:02:37A case that's really caught the public attention recently is the killing of Sean C. Sahai.
00:02:48So, he was 19 years old, but shockingly he was killed, he was stabbed by two 12-year-olds
00:02:53in Wolverhampton.
00:02:54And these two individuals are the youngest convicted killers in the UK since the killing of James Bulger when the perpetrators were 10 years old.
00:03:06On the night he was killed, Sean and a friend bought soft drinks at a petrol station before heading to a park.
00:03:14In CCTV, you can just about see them approaching a bench where they had a disagreement with the two 12-year-olds.
00:03:21One of the boys pulled out a 16-inch machete and stabbed Sean. The other punched and stamped on his head.
00:03:30It has to be said that social media played a big part in this particular incident
00:03:35because both of the perpetrators were showing off to each other about possessing knives and wanting to use them.
00:03:41So, it felt like they were literally just waiting for an opportunity to attack anybody, some random stranger.
00:03:46But it's the intention to go close to that person and take their life.
00:03:51Because remember, especially when it comes to life crime, there's a proximity.
00:03:55You get to get in that personal space.
00:03:58Another chilling aspect to this case was that the perpetrators were messaging each other after the event
00:04:03and one of them apparently wrote IDRC, which stands for I don't really care.
00:04:08So, that just really shows just the callousness and the lack of empathy that they had.
00:04:13I think when we have these horrendous, shocking cases, it kind of alarms us as a society
00:04:20and we start asking ourselves questions.
00:04:22If children this young could do something that heinous, then where does that leave us as society?
00:04:29They're running about me, Mercedes. What are the parents doing?
00:04:33If somebody had killed my child, I'd want them named and changed.
00:04:37They're feral. These kids are feral.
00:04:39Whatever statistics I hear, whether it's knife crime possessions, whether it's murders, those convicted of murders,
00:04:55any statistics I've heard over the last ten years, they're all going more or less in the wrong direction.
00:05:01The fact that you've got younger suspects and victims, and it's not just confined to those crime hotspots,
00:05:11those deprived areas, it's now coming into all sorts of well-to-do areas where you would never see this.
00:05:19It can happen anywhere, and it can happen to anyone.
00:05:23We felt quite safe here.
00:05:47Everybody gets on, everybody knows everybody by sight, everybody says hello.
00:05:59Everybody knew Ollie because he was out on his bike all the time, up and down the street, causing havoc.
00:06:03So, you know, he was well-known by everybody.
00:06:06By that token, we knew everybody else's children.
00:06:11So, you know, you felt that your kids were quite safe in this area.
00:06:15His last year of primary school, he was struggling.
00:06:19He couldn't understand what he had to do.
00:06:21He didn't have, he almost felt like his brain wasn't working properly.
00:06:25It was that morning, actually.
00:06:27We were chatting to him about that, and he kind of accepted the fact that he had autism.
00:06:33But it wasn't severe autism, but he was on the spectrum, definitely.
00:06:38And it made it difficult for him to learn.
00:06:42He would do everything feet first, not worry about the consequences.
00:06:46But part of being on the spectrum, you don't understand danger, so they don't have red flags.
00:06:52It was January the 3rd.
00:06:59That was a Sunday.
00:07:01We were going back to work on the Monday, so we were preoccupied with going back to work.
00:07:04It was COVID.
00:07:06Christmas wasn't the same, you know.
00:07:08I had a chat with him because work was stressful, and I said, look, I know work's been stressful,
00:07:12and Christmas wasn't that great this year.
00:07:14You know, so we'll make up for it during the summer.
00:07:17So we made plans, you know, yeah, we'll do that.
00:07:19Once the world gets back on its feet, we'll do all these things.
00:07:24He helped me with some chores in the morning.
00:07:26We had a few laughs.
00:07:27We were messing around.
00:07:30And so, yeah, all that stuff was going on.
00:07:33And then Ollie had gone outside.
00:07:35I heard him leave.
00:07:37Ollie was going out to meet somebody that we knew.
00:07:41He went out with his sliders on, but he didn't suspect anything.
00:07:53And he went over there, out to the field.
00:07:57He got to the field.
00:07:59He saw a girl.
00:08:01He had a conversation with her.
00:08:03And then the other two came running up the hill and jumped in.
00:08:12And there was a knock on the door.
00:08:14And I just heard Amanda scream.
00:08:17And, you know, what do you mean? He's been stabbed.
00:08:20And then I just flew down the stairs.
00:08:25And I just ran over the field.
00:08:28I didn't have any shoes on.
00:08:32And I just saw everybody stood around him,
00:08:34and he was having CPR at that point.
00:08:37It's like your head's in a washing machine.
00:08:41You're in shock.
00:08:43You're in disbelief.
00:08:44You know, there's the horror.
00:08:46And I managed to push people out of the way
00:08:48and get hold of his hand.
00:08:53But when I felt his hand,
00:08:54because an hour earlier his hands had been warm,
00:08:57his hand was stone cold,
00:08:59so I knew he was gone.
00:09:08There's a fog around the whole day for us.
00:09:11You know, one minute he's here,
00:09:13the next minute they're not.
00:09:15The shock, you're just like a zombie.
00:09:19You can't sleep, you don't sleep.
00:09:23I was looking out my bedroom window,
00:09:25the same window that I watched him leave,
00:09:283 o'clock in the morning,
00:09:29all the police tents were up.
00:09:31And the field was sealed off,
00:09:32and there were police on every exit and entrance.
00:09:34Those that knew him
00:09:37have been laying flowers at the scene
00:09:39as police have continued to scour the fields
00:09:42where the schoolboy was found.
00:09:44Forensic experts documenting every potential clue.
00:09:49There were a lot of people out there
00:09:50that couldn't understand
00:09:51why this had happened to Ollie either.
00:09:55But there's a whole chain of events
00:09:56building up to this moment.
00:09:59Social media was massive in this.
00:10:00You've got poison in your heart, fam.
00:10:06Ollie, you're gonna die tomorrow.
00:10:12In the last image of his life,
00:10:1413-year-old Ollie Stephen strolls to a park in Reading
00:10:18to meet a girl on a Sunday afternoon.
00:10:2013 minutes later, he'd be dead.
00:10:26All Ollie had done is,
00:10:28somebody he knew of had been patterned.
00:10:31So what they do is abuse you, video it, humiliate you,
00:10:37and then threaten to post it unless you do as they tell you.
00:10:41800-800-800-000.
00:10:42So what they do is abuse you, video it, humiliate you,
00:10:47and then threaten to post it unless you do as they tell you.
00:10:52And that's known as patterning.
00:10:54and then threaten to post it, unless you do as they tell you.
00:10:59And that's known as patterning.
00:11:05So Ollie told the older brother,
00:11:08of the younger boy that was patterned, that this was going on.
00:11:12And the two boys then felt aggrieved that he'd snitched on them.
00:11:20He was just looking out for somebody else.
00:11:23He'd done nothing majorly wrong,
00:11:25he'd just passed a video on that was out there already.
00:11:29But they saw that as a slight and then they decided to punish him.
00:11:32And that's when the conversations with the girl kicked off,
00:11:42because she wanted revenge on him as well for all he'd done.
00:11:45He said, oh, I don't want to see you anymore.
00:11:47He said, oh, I don't want to see you anymore.
00:11:49He said, oh, I don't want to see you anymore.
00:11:53So between the three of them, this was a plot definitely.
00:11:56You could see it developing over the two weeks.
00:11:58There were 11 platforms used on the plot against Ollie.
00:12:01So there was a lot of escalation within those conversations.
00:12:05They're just encouraging each other all the way.
00:12:07So they're goading each other to go further and further and further and further.
00:12:11So they're goading each other to go further and further and it's horrendous.
00:12:28You know, there are audio clips out there of what she did to make that meeting happen
00:12:43and who she contacted and one of them had told the other to carry the knife.
00:12:48So he's going to go banging and patting him and shit.
00:12:53I'm so excited, you don't understand.
00:12:55And then they lured him out to the field.
00:13:02So he'd been set up.
00:13:05And what happened was that Ollie got involved in a fight with the older boy
00:13:11and Ollie was winning.
00:13:13So the other kid stabbed him in the back.
00:13:15Ollie must have turned around in shock and stabbed him in the chest.
00:13:22They punctured both lungs.
00:13:23So he had literally a minute, minute and a half.
00:13:26There was no way he was going to survive that.
00:13:28It begs belief what they did to him and it was just evil, pure evil.
00:13:45They left him dying, ran off laughing.
00:13:47They've just lost all perspective.
00:13:52There was no value of life there.
00:13:54They didn't care about Ollie, didn't care about the consequences of what they'd done.
00:13:58They were just about protecting themselves.
00:13:59Obviously we were working very closely with the police and they spent the first 24 hours hammering social media for evidence.
00:14:18And the amount of evidence they collected was unbelievable.
00:14:33The police did an amazing job piecing that all together.
00:14:36So what it enabled the police to do was make arrests very quickly.
00:14:40By the Monday night, they were all arrested.
00:14:42The trial provided a glimpse into the online world which occupied the lives of these boys,
00:14:57where posing with knives and talking about killing was considered everyday chat.
00:15:02We were in court every day for six weeks. It's very difficult to sit in a court when the person
00:15:10that's killed your son is six feet away. You know, listening to the evidence was hard.
00:15:18But the way they were portrayed in court was, oh, you know, we haven't done anything wrong.
00:15:21It was all an accident sort of thing. And at one point they tried to say that Ollie had fallen on the knife.
00:15:25And their online presence was very violent and related. You know, pictures of carrying knives,
00:15:34hooded up, balakaladada, referring to knives as shepherds.
00:15:46There was a lot of hatred there, a lot of violence.
00:15:50You know, what makes a teenage boy go down that road?
00:15:55Very early on in the girl's case, their lawyers had pleaded guilty to manslaughter
00:16:02because she didn't physically touch Ollie. Everything was done in the virtual world.
00:16:06So because she hadn't physically touched Ollie, she couldn't be accountable for his death.
00:16:25Their family's lives are ruined. Their lives are ruined. All because of one stupid act.
00:16:31And there's no satisfaction in it. There's no celebration in it.
00:16:37Because you understand, you know, if we feel like this, how are their parents feeling?
00:16:42But at the end of the day, they can still hug their children.
00:16:44You know, we can't. So that's kind of the difference.
00:17:00How social media, the role are played in orchestrating Ollie's murder is quite frightening.
00:17:12If you go and sit in the well of any court across this country and a murder trial where a knife has been involved,
00:17:19almost certainly social media will have played some part in that.
00:17:23There is a cancer in our children's lives.
00:17:27It starts with the use of a mobile phone with apps that are provided to entertain,
00:17:33yet are misused to spread slander, hatred, misinformation and bile,
00:17:37and ends in the cold, cold, cold, cold, cold.
00:17:39And if you go and sit in the well of any court across this country and a murder trial where a knife has been involved,
00:17:44almost certainly social media will have played some part in that.
00:17:48There is a cancer in our children's lives. It starts with the use of a mobile phone,
00:17:51with apps that are provided to entertain, yet are misused to spread slander, hatred, misinformation and bile,
00:17:55and ends in the cold, cruel-blooded murder.
00:18:15So what we can't get our heads around is how children and teenagers are that desensitised.
00:18:23And that comes back to what they see on their phones.
00:18:32They're being shown knives and blades and, you know, gang violence and all that kind of stuff and
00:18:40as a parent you don't see it, you have no idea.
00:18:43Obviously children, especially young boys, fighting is not a new phenomenon,
00:18:48but what does feel new to me is the contribution from social media.
00:18:53So it feels like these young individuals feel provoked and they have to respond in some way
00:18:58to keep up that level of bravado.
00:18:59They can have arguments which can escalate quite quickly into actual murder.
00:19:03And they're letting us know, they've had to compare them and have to show the work to attend.
00:19:06They can have relative to the destiny of us alone, so just a contemporary story
00:19:27Fred is my friend, my best, best friend, and my son.
00:19:49I'm trying to make my son go on the right track.
00:19:54Fred was going to be a businessman.
00:19:57So that's why he do well in school.
00:19:59I was going to be a businessman.
00:20:05I get a phone call.
00:20:08Fred gets stabbed.
00:20:09And it was giving me a panic attack.
00:20:13I did panic.
00:20:20So I see the helicopter.
00:20:22And I was saying to God, I said, God, please.
00:20:25This serious.
00:20:27For a helicopter to reach me at that time.
00:20:30Then I get a phone call when I was going on my way, I said, he passed away.
00:20:35He didn't make it.
00:20:36I'd say it's pretty rare to get homicides in Northamptonshire.
00:20:51So when I received a call that we'd had a murder in Northamptons, and it was of a 16-year-old schoolboy, I knew then that this was going to have a huge impact on the local community.
00:21:05The first thing that I always wanted to do is go down to the scene to get a real understanding of what's happened, where it's happened.
00:21:19So the murder itself took place at the junction of the Cocco Hotel in Kingsfork in Northampton.
00:21:27So it's a busy junction, so it's a busy junction with a lot of cars passing through it.
00:21:33It was quite evident early on, the complexities that we were going to have around the scene.
00:21:38The first things we'll do is try to gather as much evidence as we can, as quickly as we can.
00:21:47So CCTV, those initial witness statements, are going to be key.
00:21:51We can see from the CCTV where Fred is walking home with a couple of his friends, before he sees them on the opposite side of the road, the offending parties.
00:22:09It's at that point that he then crosses the road to confront those others involved.
00:22:16And I think Fred is expecting there to be a fight at that point.
00:22:21But obviously completely unaware that the other boys are carrying knives.
00:22:29So after Fred was stabbed, a couple of members of the public passing in the vehicle had seen what had occurred.
00:22:36Seeing that Fred's been tended to by a lot of members of the public already, they decided to follow the two offenders.
00:22:43And they followed them along a road up to the Orton Alleyway where they see them entering.
00:22:47And actually, they're on the phone to the police the whole time this is taking place as well.
00:22:52And they were able to direct the police into an address that the two boys then went into.
00:22:56We know they're out with knives. We don't know what other weapons they've got.
00:23:05We don't know who they are and how they're going to behave.
00:23:08I think you!
00:23:09Right, right, get him, get him, get him.
00:23:11You! Down to the ground! Down to the ground! Do it now!
00:23:14Run!
00:23:15Stand by.
00:23:19Stay there. What?
00:23:20I'm going to be here. It's inside the house.
00:23:22You what?
00:23:22I'm going to be here. It's inside the house.
00:23:24So at that point, the officers have to make a decision to enter the premises, not knowing what they're going to find.
00:23:29They don't know whether this is adults involved, whether these are violent, hardened, criminal or what.
00:23:33Right, you. On to your side. Set up.
00:23:36So they've gone into that address completely open-minded but prepared for every eventuality.
00:23:43It's clear that the property, meticulously room by room, at which point they arrive at an upstairs attic that had been semi-converted into a bit of a sleep-in.
00:23:54You've just entered this property. You know that a boy has been murdered out on the street.
00:23:59And then you find a potential suspect hiding behind the chest of drawers.
00:24:03And you see that it's this 14-year-old child.
00:24:16Stand up, Lou! I'm just right now! I'm just right now!
00:24:19Down on the front!
00:24:20Okay, mate, you're under arrest on suspicion of murder. You don't have to say anything but a mayhem of defense.
00:24:25You do not mention one question, so it makes you later on a call.
00:24:28No, please, no, contact!
00:24:33Contact!
00:24:34Show me your hands now!
00:24:35Contact!
00:24:36Show me your hands now!
00:24:41Northamptonshire Police have launched a murder investigation.
00:24:44After yesterday, a 16-year-old boy was tragically stabbed.
00:24:54Sadly, despite the best efforts of members of the public, the police, police staff and paramedics, he died shortly afterwards.
00:25:02So, unlike a lot of homicide investigations, because we followed the offenders from the scene to the point of arrest in a very, very short amount of time,
00:25:19they have not had the opportunity to discard items.
00:25:26Also, being children, not that experienced in criminality, perhaps they hadn't fought through this far ahead around what they're going to do with their clothes and their weapons.
00:25:33So, in the garden, once we start to clear that out, we've uncovered clothing and we've uncovered knives as well.
00:25:45So, this weapon here was discarded into some bushes at the address where they're arrested from.
00:25:50Very nasty, very lethal weapon that people could just go and buy online.
00:25:57It's a hunting knife, so it's got some tools on here for cutting line and stuff.
00:26:02It's got serrated ash.
00:26:04It's used for butchering meat.
00:26:07So, what we know is that two weapons were taken to the scene.
00:26:11This one, um, that was held by the 16-year-old in his waistband,
00:26:15and then the other one that we've got here that a 14-year-old had, which was the fatal weapon.
00:26:22As you can see, it's a great big knife.
00:26:26Absolutely massive.
00:26:27And you've got to think, this was being carried by a 14-year-old.
00:26:34So, this knife has got a blade that's around 25 centimetres in length.
00:26:38And we know from the pathology results that it went into Fred's chest around 15, 16 centimetres before it literally cut his heart in two.
00:26:48So, it's extremely tragic.
00:26:55Until the investigation commenced, we were completely unaware of what was going on in the background.
00:27:02And it wasn't until we started digging into the mobile phones and all of the evidence and the messages
00:27:07that we understand the full picture of how this has escalated over a number of days.
00:27:13These boys weren't really known to each other before.
00:27:16They'd crossed paths once at a party, but they weren't friends or associates.
00:27:20And it was only because of those messages that involved their wider circle of friends
00:27:25that it's just escalated so senselessly, so needlessly, resulting in Fred's death.
00:27:29So, this has all occurred after a bit of a dispute over a girl.
00:27:35And losing face, we would say, the 14-year-old boy has lost face over what's happened.
00:27:41That's then transpired into violence on the Monday against one of Fred's friends.
00:27:47And then on a Tuesday, Fred and another boy sought to get some revenge for that earlier assault.
00:27:53It was a bit of a tit for tat.
00:27:54Again, there was another fight, pretty low level, although the violence had escalated slightly when Fred used his belt.
00:28:04And that was a real catalyst then for what occurs then on a Wednesday.
00:28:08The 14-year-old and 16-year-old were in contact with each other, trying to get others involved to then hunt down Fred.
00:28:20They're talking around bringing tools, coming ballyed up.
00:28:23And there was a clear inference then to bring tools in the plural.
00:28:41Not just one, but tools for both of them, that they wanted to go armed, they wanted to have that show of force.
00:28:47We then see that plan start coming into play with the picking up of a voice scooter from Northampton Town Centre.
00:29:05We know that that's been hired by the 14-year-old and account belonging to his mother.
00:29:13So we see the journey that he takes from near to his home address into the town centre to then go and pick up the 16-year-old.
00:29:21The knives are brought out by the 14-year-old, one's handed to the 16-year-old, so they've got one each now.
00:29:28From there, they then travel up towards Kingsport College, looking for Fred.
00:29:34But they're late. Fred has already left school for the day.
00:29:37It's around quarter past 20 past three.
00:29:40So they then start to follow the route that Fred would have taken to walk home, at which point we then pick them up on CCTV.
00:29:46As Fred is walking down towards the Cock Hotel Junction, we can see them travelling down on their scooter.
00:29:58So Fred's with one of his other friends who provided a key witness statement to the police around what happened.
00:30:05After they cross the road and approach the other boys, there's a confrontation between Fred and the 16-year-old, one of the suspects.
00:30:13He goes to the ground, and then the 14-year-old accomplices with him, steps over and approaches Fred.
00:30:22The 14-year-old pulls out his knife, and it's a really big knife, and starts approaching Fred.
00:30:29Fred's seeing the knife, backs up, but he's walking backwards and he doesn't know there's a tree behind him.
00:30:34Unfortunately, he gets himself cornered against a tree, at which point the 14-year-old then lunges once to the side of his chest.
00:30:49Going straight in through his heart.
00:30:51So it was only one stab wound, and that's all it takes. You know, this was a whopping great big knife, and unfortunately it cost Fred his life.
00:31:06It was a catastrophic injury. Fred suffered massive blood loss within a matter of seconds. He was unconscious and collapsed.
00:31:13The coroner said that the knife touched his heart, that's why. Punch at his heart.
00:31:24But this guy who killed my son doesn't even know my son. Doesn't know my son.
00:31:32He want to be hard. Social media, nothing, they're pressuring the child to be what them is not.
00:31:38He talked on the social media saying he's going to kill Fred, and he did do it.
00:31:44And that dangerous weapon, he buy it online.
00:31:48He bought that knife online. You kill an innocent man. Stupid.
00:31:53I think times have really changed from perhaps when I used to be at school, and there used to be disputes, and boys would have a fight under the underpass after school, and you go your separate ways, and that would be the end of it.
00:32:14Nowadays, it seems to be so many young people are carrying knives. You just don't know what you're walking into when these fights occur.
00:32:21So with the mobile phones that we recovered, we identified a number of images that were of key importance later on in the trial.
00:32:37And these showed that the 16-year-old is posing in his kitchen holding a great big machete.
00:32:43He's got a face covering on, and he's brandishing this knife clearly for social media and his reputation.
00:32:53We've got other images as well that show the boys together, again, holding other knives, different knives, out in the street as well, trying to look fearsome, trying to look menacing.
00:33:07All part of that image and that reputation they're trying to build as, you know, people not to be messed with, people to be feared.
00:33:13Really mixed emotions. One, we're pleased, obviously, that the offender who stuck the knife into Fred and ultimately took his life, he's been found guilty.
00:33:35That was always a priority in this case. Conversation that I had with Fred's father, Rowan, was around, you know, he's the one that we really need to get convicted of this.
00:33:45He's the one ultimately responsible.
00:33:47However, the 16-year-old, he played a significant role in this. He's the one sending messages the night before, getting the 14-year-old to come, bring the tools, come ballyed up.
00:33:59We see him on CCTV going with a flying kick before the stabbing takes place as well.
00:34:04So he was heavily involved in it. But for whatever reason, the jury returned they're not guilty verdicts.
00:34:17It's very hurt to know what my son's life does, just taking away.
00:34:32Every day I cry, cry, cry, cry. If you tell the truth, I cry. I cry every day and that night.
00:34:49I'm very hurt. Very, very hurt.
00:35:13I cry, cry, cry, cry.
00:35:32I think, in a lost ways, youth culture has been hijacked by this.
00:35:37I'm not trying to stereotype all youth cultures the same, but there's certain norms and values that have been adopted,
00:35:44regardless of your background, because social media has been the accelerant.
00:35:51What social media has done is created a style icon, a youth culture almost, around knife-carrying,
00:35:59in that it glamorises it and normalises it.
00:36:07So bravado is part of it, but it's also the fear that you will need a knife at some point to protect yourself.
00:36:27And in actual fact, the bravado part of it, sometimes for some kids, is actually saying,
00:36:33look, I've got a knife, don't mess with me.
00:36:37If you've got somebody that's carrying a knife because they're scared, with a minor confrontation,
00:36:55being fuelled by filming, bravado, young people, that's when we're seeing knives being pulled out,
00:37:02and the most horrendous situations are coming from such a small altercation.
00:37:07So I suppose an age-old question is whether it's always possible to find an explanation of why a child might carry out a heinous act like murder.
00:37:29So is it because they've been exposed to violence or they have parents or caregivers that don't instill a moral compass?
00:37:41And then another factor is that I think it's very possible for child perpetrators, for child killers,
00:37:50to actually enjoy the process of hurting somebody and taking somebody's life.
00:37:56And a case that really stands out to me is the murder of Brianna Jai, who was a 16-year-old transgender schoolgirl.
00:38:08And she was murdered by two individuals, Scarlett Jenkinson and Eddie Ratcliffe, who were both 15 years old.
00:38:24It's the moment Brianna Jai met her killers.
00:38:29CCTV shows Scarlett Jenkinson labelled X here chatting to Eddie Ratcliffe labelled Y.
00:38:36Brianna has just got off a bus and would be murdered not long after.
00:38:44One thing that really stands out to me about the Brianna Jai case is the fact that it appears to be very pre-planned.
00:38:51So it was Scarlett's plan in the beginning, but she encouraged Eddie to join in with her and they exchanged thousands of messages.
00:39:01She befriended Brianna in advance, invited her out to the park and it felt like they took a delight in the planning.
00:39:08Jurors at their trial late last year were shown this handwritten so-called murder plan on which Scarlett Jenkinson mapped out the barbarism they would commit.
00:39:18Scarlett, you are under arrest on suspicion of murder.
00:39:23How come I'm a suspect? How come you're a suspect?
00:39:25Because I'm the last person at sea of the risk.
00:39:27I don't know, all the information I've received is you are a suspect, OK?
00:39:32These are two kids who had a hit list of kids that they could potentially kill.
00:39:42And they were really immersed in how fantastic and exciting it would be to end the life of somebody.
00:39:52So that is a shocking way of thinking.
00:40:11So when we look back at, you know, in time, children that go on to commit violence like murder is nothing new.
00:40:16That's been happening for decades.
00:40:20I would say that in the vast majority of cases, there's usually something to do with their psychiatric makeup.
00:40:28But I think it's also fair to say that there are exceptions.
00:40:31Two 14-year-old boys lured a man to his death, killing him simply for fun.
00:40:44The victim's family said the teenagers had been brutal.
00:40:50He boasted about the killing to school friends.
00:41:13Obviously, you don't go to work thinking,
00:41:14I wonder how many 14-year-old murderers I'm going to deal with today.
00:41:18And even now, here we are 25 years ago, and to talk about it,
00:41:24and it makes me think, well, why?
00:41:28Why on earth did this happen?
00:41:30In this park in Bedford, two 14-year-old boys lured a man to his death,
00:41:35killing him simply for fun.
00:41:37Their victim was Mohamed Aslam, who'd been sitting on a park bench.
00:41:40April 1999, it was close to his birthday, he'd been let down by his friends.
00:41:49He'd went out and got hopelessly drunk and sat on a park bench down by the slight.
00:41:54And then his body was found.
00:42:00It was evident immediately he'd been savagely beaten.
00:42:03There was an imprint of this man's head in the ground.
00:42:07And that shows the level of ferocity that the offenders had used on him.
00:42:16There was bits of wood around with blood and pallets that had been used in the attack.
00:42:22And it became clear after a couple of days that one of the offenders had began boasting that they had killed a man.
00:42:29There were two people involved, both were 14.
00:42:35Terence Lambert and Sergio Pantano.
00:42:42As the investigation unravels, you begin to question, what's the motivation behind this?
00:42:53Both went to good schools, both came from good families.
00:42:56So there's nothing on the face of it in their background to indicate that they had a challenge around why they would want to do this.
00:43:07It's evident if you put a pallet on somebody, jump up and down that you're going to cause very, very serious harm to somebody.
00:43:14But they found it quite amusing and ran away laughing so hard that they could hardly run away from the scene.
00:43:20Which is unbelievable, truly unbelievable.
00:43:26Judge Daniel Rodwell described the evidence as a chilling catalogue of gratuitous violence which gives every indication that it was carried out for the fun of it.
00:43:34I think trying to understand why these things happen is, even now, I find it difficult to do and I would challenge anybody to come up with a rationale why that actually happened.
00:43:52And I can't imagine what the motivation for that was other than gratuitous violence, evil.
00:44:13I've been asked about the term evil. I can understand why people use it when they're trying to convey across the hatred of a heinous act by an individual in something like a news report.
00:44:30So I understand it, but it's not part of my world. But I do have my equivalence within forensic psychiatry. So my equivalent would be an individual who's completely lacking in empathy and is completely callous and they don't care about the rights or the wellbeing of others.
00:44:47Plus they don't have that moral barrier to stop them going out and committing violence.
00:44:52When I hear of a child who has committed murder, it's more likely that they're going to get involved in an altercation at a party or somewhere where kids congregate and that somebody is going to have thought that it was a bright idea to take a knife out with them that day.
00:45:11So I think it was very much worse.
00:45:14If my head is dead and there is no such way for us to carry off again, even though we're figured out how this is.
00:45:16We hadcha no such way, but partly taken a million government now, there is no suffering going from the government already.
00:45:20Hello, I'm a triad.
00:45:41999.
00:45:42This is the ambulance service.
00:45:45Is the patient breathing?
00:45:47No, no, no.
00:45:49They're not breathing.
00:45:50Can we ask?
00:45:51They've just been stabbed at the house party.
00:45:53Please.
00:46:02I'd had loads of missed calls.
00:46:03I think it was, like, 37 missed calls from Mikey
00:46:07and other numbers that I didn't know.
00:46:11My heart was in my throat.
00:46:14Like, to have that many calls, what's happened?
00:46:20Listen to me.
00:46:21Listen to what I'm saying, OK?
00:46:23Is the attacker still nearby?
00:46:25I don't know.
00:46:26I don't know.
00:46:27I don't know.
00:46:28Is there any serious bleeding?
00:46:30Yes, very serious.
00:46:32Mike, his friend, he answered his phone.
00:46:38And he said, Mike has been stabbed.
00:46:43I didn't even know what to think.
00:46:45Like, I thought, no, he hasn't.
00:46:48I was saying, no, he hasn't.
00:46:49No, he hasn't.
00:46:50He was like, yeah, he has.
00:46:51And they said, is he all right?
00:46:52Get an ambulance.
00:46:53Why are you ringing me?
00:46:54Get an ambulance.
00:46:55And then when we pulled up, there was a white tent up.
00:47:06So I knew.
00:47:10They were in their forensic suits.
00:47:12The police just come over, the policeman, and he just said,
00:47:19A young man's been stabbed here and killed tonight.
00:47:23And we believe it's your son, Mikey.
00:47:25It does still get you, even after a long time in the police.
00:47:44When you hear the details, the emotional accounts from witnesses,
00:47:47it does, it does get you.
00:47:50I went out to meet Hayley.
00:47:52And it is hard.
00:47:54You walk into someone's home who've just lost a loved one.
00:47:59All I can remember saying to Mark was,
00:48:02Please get them.
00:48:04Please go and get them.
00:48:10It's horrific to think that people take knives to teenage parties,
00:48:14but knives are drawn and then something happens.
00:48:22I can't believe kids carry those around with them.
00:48:23Like, where do they get them from?
00:48:24It's shocking.
00:48:25I can't believe kids carry those around with them.
00:48:27Like, where do they get them from?
00:48:28It's shocking.
00:48:29He was my only son.
00:48:30Didn't need another one.
00:48:31I always say he was my friend as well.
00:48:32I always say he was my friend as well.
00:48:33I can't believe kids carry those around with them.
00:48:34Like, where do they get them from?
00:48:35It's shocking.
00:48:36I can't believe kids carry those around with them.
00:48:37I can't believe kids carry those around with them.
00:48:38I can't believe kids carry those around with them.
00:48:39Like, where do they get them from?
00:48:40Like, where do they get them from?
00:48:41It's shocking.
00:48:43What can we do to do between them and then build them from here?
00:48:49Well, when almost 43 Server's in the world and what is that?
00:48:53You do to do it.
00:48:54That's creepy.
00:48:55And you're getting really serious, you all do to see önemli videos.
00:48:57So, there's a glassiest element to choose completamente.
00:48:59And I can't see everytime crisis coming in from a hurry and spending there in a country.
00:49:00So, I said, we're not supposed to spend a lot of time.
00:49:02but he's my friend like we told each other everything
00:49:09because it was a murder they can't release the body to the funeral directors for quite a while
00:49:17that broke my heart um he obviously had to be identified um i couldn't do it the last time i
00:49:25seen him he walked out the door and i said to him oh you look handsome and he went all right mom
00:49:32love you and like give me a cheeky grin and i said love you um i didn't i don't want to remember
00:49:39anything else so in the first few days of a murder inquiry it's really important you take time to
00:49:50evaluate what you've got to understand where you're heading there were in excess of 70 teenagers there
00:49:59they witnessed probably the most horrific thing they'll ever see in their lives so we had a
00:50:05a large number of teenagers who were extremely traumatized majority didn't see the actual
00:50:13incident but importantly we had an eyewitness who wasn't involved in the incident but knew who
00:50:20had committed the murder and he did the right thing he explained what had happened
00:50:31so it was a 16th birthday party arranged by a girl in an area of bath
00:50:37and it was kind of an open invite to her friends and their friends
00:50:41mikey we think that you got a snapchat inviting him to this party and when i've spoken to his friends
00:50:53they just said they were a bit like oh why not let's go it might be all right gives us something to do
00:50:59so they caught the bus to bath then and went to the party but also at the the house were a group of
00:51:11teenagers from the wiltshire area they had been invited through a friend of a friend and they'd come
00:51:16over um on the bus and it was just a normal house party from the party itself we recovered a picture
00:51:33from the one of the snapchat accounts it showed a group of youths sat around on the decking at the
00:51:40back of the party where the murder was going to happen and everyone seemed to be having a good time
00:51:51and then something happened we still don't know what the trigger was
00:51:56suddenly there was a standoff between two groups we think it was a group of boys from bristol
00:52:04and these boys from wiltshire and knives were drawn
00:52:08so mikey suffered one wound we believe he was attacked from behind so he may not have seen
00:52:15the attacker shane cunningham he was 16 and is one very powerful blow into the back of his neck
00:52:26he was supported by cartel bushnell who was 15.
00:52:32people started to flee from the house and mikey himself moved through the house where he
00:52:37collapsed outside
00:52:41you can imagine you you've got screaming teenagers down the phone hello i'm attack 909
00:52:52you've got very upset neighbors some of the neighbors were administering first aid at the time
00:52:57i'm going to tell you how to do chest compassion i need you to pump the chest
00:53:01the initial minutes are utter chaos i'm going to count with you keep doing these compressions can
00:53:12they hear me okay okay
00:53:14so the investigation it was pointing towards these two individuals being involved in the murder
00:53:32and we then began to work on securing enough evidence
00:53:35so when the actual incident had happened and they fled we caught them on cctv very briefly discussing
00:53:45the incident shane said to cartel that about the knife getting stuck in mikey's neck
00:53:50and then we found a zombie knife forced down a drain and that was the murder weapon
00:54:08i would describe them as combat knives they're also described as zombie knives
00:54:18they're very long weapons they have a very long cutting edge and then the back is very serrated
00:54:33my view they're designed for one thing and that that's to kill
00:54:40we found shane's dna on the handle and mikey's forensics on the blade it wasn't until a few months
00:54:47later that we realized that actually we had another person leo knight who was also 15
00:54:57he'd given an account as a witness that just didn't add up there were a few question marks around
00:55:02his clothing being disposed of at the scene
00:55:07and then as the investigation progressed we had some forensics back about a knife that we then linked to
00:55:14him his dna on the handle and then we found mikey's blood on the blade but importantly that was airborne
00:55:24blood so that means that that knife was being held aloft when mikey's blood was airborne our case was that
00:55:35leo had that knife out at the point that mikey was murdered so they were the main key bits of forensic evidence
00:55:45cctv wise we had some good footage from the bus journey which we say showed leo with a knife
00:55:51in his waistband hidden under clothing
00:55:58we also recovered footage from mcdonald's we say that shane was fiddling with a knife in the waistband
00:56:04of his clothing
00:56:05and shane cunningham had actually stabbed mikey but the other two were equally responsible because of
00:56:16their roles in producing knives and supporting the main defendant
00:56:20they chose not to speak to us but which is their right is there some reason why you felt that you
00:56:43had to have a knife with you that day no comment had anybody threatened you no comment
00:56:52so to this day we still don't know exactly
00:56:55what their mindset was tell me about knives at the party
00:57:05did you see people with knives at that party
00:57:07they were three teenagers 15 16 years old
00:57:17nothing remarkable about them
00:57:20there are probably hundreds like them everywhere in every town and city across the country
00:57:24if you were to look back at someone's past and say are they likely to go out commit murder next week
00:57:33definitely not with these boys
00:57:38it's the most horrendous feeling knowing that you have to go and face them look them in the eye
00:57:48like they've taken your world your life mikey's life
00:57:55there's no words to describe how it feels to sit there and think you've taken my only child from me
00:58:03and you you're just sat smiling playing looking you know no words
00:58:22you
00:58:33to this day we don't know why he was killed a minor flare-up at a party between kids
00:58:48it should have been a worst case of punch or a big ruck and ended up with a few bruises
00:58:57but because these defendants chose to take knives with them he lost his life
00:59:03it's like it's part of their wardrobe as it were put your trainers on put your tracks it on and
00:59:08just pick up your zombie knife just in case it's it's a mindset that i can't understand
00:59:22takes your breath away when you wake up and you think this has actually happened you think no no no
00:59:28i miss cooking for him um he loved his mum's cooking i miss doing his washing terribly
00:59:41hanging his clothes out on the line i miss changing his bed
00:59:47just doing things that you do for your kids as a mum
00:59:50he has his own washing basket in his bedroom and his clothes are still in there because i can't wash
01:00:00it for the last time i just can't do it so they'll probably stay here now for the rest of my life
01:00:06because i can't
01:00:20knives are getting bigger
01:00:25it's like an arms war
01:00:26a decade ago i would have been talking to parents about checking the knife drawers
01:00:33and particularly the small knives that could be hidden in your belt
01:00:38now we're talking to parents about checking those deliveries that arrive on your door
01:00:44because the knives that are being used are massive either zombie knives or machetes
01:00:48this all spirals in the arms war if if i think you're carrying a knife and i need to protect myself
01:00:57i will carry a bigger knife because that will protect me against you
01:01:01and it goes on and it goes on and it goes on and it goes on and it goes on
01:01:18the knife is easy accessible cheaper options social media has been the accelerant you know certain
01:01:35things that you used to believe my child could never get involved in this really check what's on
01:01:43their phone check what who they're associating with online
01:01:58three years down the line you don't ever forget that day
01:02:03this is the field where ollie was lured to consequently murdered
01:02:14but we didn't want his friends and people to remember this as a bad place
01:02:25the thing is that field was always the safe place for the kids
01:02:29and because of what happened to ollie they were staying away from it so ollie wouldn't want that
01:02:35we didn't want it so we came up with the idea of putting a bench there
01:02:49and then the tree came about because we had an oak tree growing in the back garden that had been
01:02:58there as long as ollie hands so we planted that and then the kids now decorate it at christmas
01:03:07and then they leave gifts and things and messages to ollie
01:03:19you know we often just think why us why ollie he was only 13 for about six weeks so his birthday was
01:03:26the first of november and he was taken on the third january so um he didn't have he didn't have
01:03:31very long as a teenager but in his short period of time he gave so much
01:03:44i think the saddest thing about losing a child is the pain is never going to go away ever you learn to
01:03:54live in pain i lost my only son joshua um to knife crime in 2013 he was stabbed once in the heart he
01:04:05wasn't a gang member wasn't a drug dealer it was a minor altercation and a young man carried a knife
01:04:11and the consequences were devastating and are devastating almost 11 years later
01:04:16you know every year there's a birthday an anniversary a mother's day a father's day a christmas that come
01:04:29at you hit you like a speeding train
01:04:37i just want other parents to be kind to themselves and realize that the pain they're in and the
01:04:42difficulties they face are very very normal
01:04:52now i focus on you know how many young people can i get to see the reality of their choices before
01:05:00it's too late and so it's that fuels me to keep going
01:05:13i think the main thing that i've seen over the last 10 years is the age is getting younger
01:05:18and the the increase in murders over such trivial trivial things
01:05:25a look a comment i think we're seeing a huge increase in crimes like that that are happening
01:05:33and you're just thinking children are dying over such trivial things in this country
01:05:39we must be doing more for our future generation
01:05:49if you or someone you know has been affected by any of the issues raised in this program
01:05:53please go to channel5.com slash helplines for information and support
01:05:57next is wandsworth prison out of control
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