- 3 hours ago
Kevin and Mark take a look at new motorcycles from EICMA, the huge annual show in Milan, Italy. The guys talk about Chinese motorcycles, the Indian-made Nortons, and, of course, Honda's electric-supercharged V3R and, as always, "more." Visit cycleworld.com/eicma so see all the bikes and read about these interesting new models.
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Read more from Cycle World: https://www.cycleworld.com/
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SportsTranscript
00:00:00Welcome back to the Cycle World Podcast. I'm Mark Hoyer, the Editor-in-Chief. I'm with Kevin Kaminer, our Technical Editor.
00:00:05This week, we'll talk about the Milan Show, EICMA, new bikes, what's going on in the world, what do these bikes mean, hey, look at China, lots going on.
00:00:21I'm not sure where to begin, Kevin. I mean, you know, I think there was a lot of sport bike-y stuff going on.
00:00:27It was interesting to see Norton come back. You know, Norton's, TVS bought Norton a while ago, what, five years ago, and they've been frittering away and doing things with the Norton brand and, like, reinventing the bikes, the line, making a modern brand out of Norton.
00:00:45Um, it's interesting. I'm, I'm, you know, we could talk about those bikes now, I guess, but, uh, uh, we, we saw some paint schemes and minor technical updates, you know, very cool retro referential.
00:01:01Like, we've R7, a Yamaha took the 99 R7 livery and put it on their sporty bikes, which, you know, I find that charming.
00:01:10Um, I don't know. What do you think, Kevin? What did we talk about?
00:01:15Well, uh, it's always difficult. Um, back in the old days when everybody went to the show and we had a little pavilion of our own inside of which we could talk among ourselves without being overheard, at least so we believed.
00:01:36Um, it was so different from, from today. There we all were, including all salespeople. We're there in Germany, walking up and down and looking at all this wonderful stuff.
00:01:55And it seemed, it seemed, yeah, the cologne show was the other big show.
00:02:00Yeah, it seemed like it would, it would never, it would never end. And, uh, David Edwards, then the editor in chief, got us all together in there in a kind of harumph, harumph manner.
00:02:15And he said, well, what, what are we going to call this? I mean, what's our theme?
00:02:22And I looked around, no hands going up. So, so I said, Europe takes the lead. Because what was happening then was that electronic rider aids were coming in, which, by the way, were a substitute at the time for new models. So that's something you have to look out for.
00:02:43Uh, but the Japanese manufacturers were trying to find a way to call it something else because they were expecting some kind of big legal blade to drop on them if they got in line with what the Europeans were doing.
00:03:01The Europeans were just putting electronic rider aids on their bikes. It was happening.
00:03:07And it was great to see it because, uh, it had, it had taken quite a long time.
00:03:15So, uh, now that wasn't, that was an interesting time. The addition of rider aids, uh, Kawasaki came out with, uh, a thing.
00:03:26A thing, yeah.
00:03:28And it was sort of, it was sort of like, yeah, it's traction control. But then as it progressed and as we were talking about the bike, you know, the, the messaging got really weird. It got very strange. And it was sort of like, well, yeah, well, you know, um, it's, uh, it's not traction control, but it's all about maintaining traction or something like that.
00:03:48Yeah. It's like your dad trying to explain the facts of life and dancing around the subject and never really getting to it.
00:03:54But, but, you know, it's, it's hard. It's a hard market. You know, the litigation is real and.
00:04:00Oh, no question. No question. But we got through that.
00:04:03Yeah. And now.
00:04:04We got good stuff. So thank you. Thank you for sticking with it, team.
00:04:09We're, we're thigh deep in rider aids. And, uh, that continues to the point that people are pulling out these books about automated airliners and saying, how much is too much?
00:04:23So that indicates that we're, um, getting towards saturation. But, uh, what we have now, of course, is that the manufacturers cannot any more than Wall Street predict what the future will bring.
00:04:40Will there be a fresh prosperity? Will there be tariff wars? No one has a clue. There are people making definitive statements, but that just sounding positive is not a guarantee of truth.
00:04:58So the result is timidity. Nobody's launching anything big, but it's a great time to launch, to show prototypes.
00:05:11Hey, uh, this is a flag. We're running it up to see if anyone salutes it.
00:05:16And it's sounding the market. Honda's, um, announcement was that there would be 10 new electrics pretty soon.
00:05:28And, uh, then there was Rajiv Bajaj of the Indian, uh, company of that name saying, European manufacturing is finished.
00:05:44Now, what that means is not literally as it sounds, what it means is Europe will not attempt to get part of the Southeast Asia market,
00:05:57which is a place where everyone in that market is working as hard as they can to pair every last, um, unit of credit from their selling price.
00:06:10Because that is an area of minimum public transportation.
00:06:17And what I read most recently is that about a third of the people have a moped or a scooter.
00:06:24Now, China, on the other hand, their cities are saying, oh, um, we want to exclude internal combustion and, um, densely packed streets.
00:06:37So there are going to be exclusion zones in major cities, which means they're under pressure from themselves to move their product towards Southeast Asia because they obviously aren't moving it here.
00:06:54So, um, I felt like, um, when I was reading through particulars about some of the Chinese brands, um, which we're gradually coming to recognize.
00:07:05And I wanted to say, see your dealer for details.
00:07:08So, uh, this is a time during which some manufacturer might just wouldn't bring their current offering and show it.
00:07:23There's nothing wrong with that.
00:07:24Here's what you can buy from us.
00:07:26Honda have shown a further stage in their electric supercharged vehicle called V3R, which is a 900cc triple of V engine.
00:07:41And I'm calling that a variable displacement engine, because if you're on light throttle, it is only its own displacement, which is 900cc.
00:07:51But when you roll on beyond a certain point, the electric supercharger begins to pack air mixture into the cylinders equivalent to a much bigger engine, because the power is proportional to the density of the mixture and the, uh, displacement.
00:08:15So here's a way with, this is variable density mixture, which suddenly your 900 becomes a 1200 and away we go.
00:08:24So that's a teaser.
00:08:26Is Honda going to produce this?
00:08:28Well, uh, Harley Davidson, let's say it looks like strong intent to reproduction for that bike.
00:08:37It does.
00:08:37But then again, they, they were going to build that V5 and somebody didn't show that though.
00:08:43That was just the, that was just talking to folks who said, yeah, you know, at that time we did have that bike and they were running around and it was, yeah, we were going to come out, but then, you know.
00:08:54Yeah.
00:08:55Yeah.
00:08:56Okay.
00:08:57Financial, uh, crisis.
00:09:00And I went over to, to London, um, to see the, the Norton of that time, which was a four cylinder thing with three spark plugs in each cylinder.
00:09:11And a cast chassis.
00:09:15Now the cast chassis originated in England.
00:09:19Um, we, you and I have copies of the book about casting that includes the revolution by which, um, about 30 pounds or more was subtracted from Japanese brands.
00:09:35By being able to make sounder, hence lighter weight castings that had more strength and more durability than previous.
00:09:46So it's, uh, that Norton project came to nothing.
00:09:53And I went to England just for, on speculation and learned something about cast.
00:09:59Um, was that the, was that actually the V8, the nemesis?
00:10:03They had a V8.
00:10:04Yeah.
00:10:05Yeah.
00:10:05They, they were, they were doing, and then the nemesis name, but it was.
00:10:11Melling.
00:10:12It was Al Melling.
00:10:12Yeah, Melling.
00:10:13Doing that.
00:10:13And he was.
00:10:15Formula One guy, V8.
00:10:16Supposedly a Formula One guy.
00:10:18And I arranged to have a little time with him, and I decided that, well, he must be awfully close-mouthed because I'm not hearing a lot that sounds like a Formula One engineer.
00:10:32So, who knows?
00:10:34Anyway, uh, everyone's response to the current unknowable conditions is different.
00:10:40Uh, Honda's got this, this, uh, V3R, which now you see it, maybe we will see it, maybe we won't.
00:10:48Uh, they're talking about a $17,000 full-size electric at 479 pounds, uh, with a, quite a light battery, what's it, nearly 10, um, kilowatt hours.
00:11:08And moderate top speed, 24 horsepower for cruising with bursts to 67 horsepower.
00:11:22This is something that you can do in electric, um, normally electric motors in electric vehicles have to be cooled because they're regular old resistive conductors in the motor.
00:11:38And if you run at a high level, really dump the electrons to it, it gets hot.
00:11:46So, um, it's kind of like, um, those devices for, uh, automobiles, the nitrous injection, that gives you one tremendous burst of acceleration.
00:12:02That's all I have to say.
00:12:04You can say after that.
00:12:07Well, my engine builder, uh, the guy who put my, uh, uh, Jaguar XK motor together, 3.8 with a very long stroke.
00:12:14And, um, uh, he did a lot of work on the factory rods, you know, he used the later rods from the later car that were stronger.
00:12:23And, uh, I said, Oh, I was talking to him after driving it for a while.
00:12:27I was like, yeah, I usually shift five 52, you know, red lines, 55 is like, Oh, you can go to six, you know, special occasions.
00:12:34Don't live there.
00:12:35Special occasions.
00:12:36So special occasions, extra juice in that motor, heat it up, let it cool off.
00:12:42This, it's like the old cylinder head, the air cooled cylinder head, having a big, heavy piece of aluminum up there to be like the bank.
00:12:49So that you're pinned, getting down the end of the straight and just pouring heat into it.
00:12:53And then you're breaking and it's like, Oh, get rid of that heat for the next time.
00:12:57That's right.
00:12:58And that's why when Dick O'Brien and, uh, Pete Zylstra were designing the XR 750, uh, O'Brien wanted an inch.
00:13:07I want an inch of goddamn aluminum on top of that cylinder head.
00:13:11And Zylstra is kind of going, how heavy is this thing going to be?
00:13:15So they compromised at three quarters, but that is the bank.
00:13:19You're able, the, the heat that is lost from combustion by conduction goes into that bank.
00:13:27And you want it to be enough of a bank that its temperature doesn't go high enough to make your engine detonate.
00:13:33But yeah, I guess I'm reminded.
00:13:36Here's a sales job folks.
00:13:38Sorry, but I'm reminded of the other podcasts that we have done.
00:13:41So we have done a podcast on castings.
00:13:44So if you want to find out about castings, go back in time.
00:13:47As we close in on a hundred episodes, uh, we have a, one of castings.
00:13:51We've talked about cooling.
00:13:52We've talked about getting rid of heat, uh, all kinds of other things.
00:13:56This is in the back catalog.
00:13:57So if this is your relatively new relationship with us in the podcast world, go back in time
00:14:03and join us there.
00:14:06Yes, we have a library now.
00:14:10Uh, so, um, that an electric motor can display this quality, the same quality.
00:14:15You couldn't keep your XR 750, just keep on accelerating because eventually the head would get hot enough
00:14:22that it would start knocking on that compression ratio.
00:14:26So with an electric motor, um, the 24 horsepower rating is for steady operation.
00:14:33We can get rid of that heat, but if you need to accelerate faster and you don't do it too often,
00:14:38you can have this other, uh, two and a half times more horsepower.
00:14:44Nice.
00:14:45It's one of the things that electrics can do.
00:14:49Well, and it makes sense in an electric bike anyway.
00:14:51You know, I mean, we're, it's not like jumping on your CBR 1000 RRR.
00:14:59And I just want to pin it forever, which you kind of can, you know, you can, you can go, I mean, highway cruising
00:15:09and electrics, like it doesn't make sense because you're, you're drawing so much at 80 miles an hour
00:15:14that the capacity of the battery is like, yeah, we can't carry a giant battery the way you can
00:15:20in an automobile where you make the entire underfloor hundreds of pounds of battery, like thousand pounds,
00:15:25whatever it is, like you just stuff it in there.
00:15:28You got all kinds of room, put it wherever you want, but a motorcycle, you know, once
00:15:32we get to 500 pounds, keeping it off the side stand is, is a real job.
00:15:37So it's a real balance.
00:15:38And I think the reason we've seen so many, you know, you look at the aesthetic of Mulholland,
00:15:45you know, the, the lighter live wire, um, platforms that to me is like, okay, that makes sense.
00:15:52It's a sensible size and a sensible like use case.
00:15:56You kind of have to ignore the costs because you just have to go in and say like, yeah,
00:15:59man, this is a 13, $15,000 bike.
00:16:03Can-Am has driven the price down on their sensible kind of size electrics.
00:16:08They're, Hey, we're urban.
00:16:10And, um, you know, it seems like a good strategy to try electrics, but for us in the market,
00:16:19I mean, those have come down to 10,000, they've discounted those to, you know, consumers are
00:16:24like, no, we can't, I'm not paying 18 grand for this fully kitted out.
00:16:28Cause you could, you could accessorize this electric thing from about 15 up to about 18.
00:16:34And that's a lot of money.
00:16:35Cause when you get to $18,000, man, the use case of a FZ09, MT09, go, go to the used market.
00:16:44Like it's a very challenging space anyway, electrics, like it, it's a sensible thing with
00:16:50the electric, like, yeah, we've got 24 horsepower for cruising down the road and makes perfect
00:16:53sense.
00:16:54And when you want to feel the turbo power, you got it for a brief amount of time and
00:16:57you can dip in and enjoy that.
00:16:59And then you go back to, I'm just getting to work.
00:17:02Yeah.
00:17:03Getting to work.
00:17:04And the Society of Automotive Engineers, the SAE have, uh, standards for establishing range
00:17:14on electric, um, lightweights and they have a, uh, sort of quicker one that has, uh, higher
00:17:28speeds and usage of the motor.
00:17:30And then they have one for mopeds and, and scooter like electrics.
00:17:35And so you can look this up online and find out what is involved in, in what is the, what
00:17:43are the ingredients of range as it's measured currently.
00:17:47And I think that electrics in the city have a great future, not only because you're never
00:17:53far from, uh, someplace or some way that you could charge the thing.
00:17:57Uh, but also because cities are, Chinese cities are starting to say no combustion inside this
00:18:06circle, unless you're driving a really long automobile.
00:18:12Yeah.
00:18:12The swappable battery in those cases too, where you can just roll up and pull out your battery
00:18:18and throw it into a charger.
00:18:20And it locks those ones in that are dead and unlocks another set that you can go throw in
00:18:26your vehicle.
00:18:26That's been a, a, a process in, in Southeast Asia.
00:18:31Yeah.
00:18:31And so it should be, uh, because, uh, cities are so huge.
00:18:39We know that there are Asian cities, you know, with, with 20 million people, the cities are
00:18:45so large that where you find work and where you can live can be several miles distant.
00:18:52And there's public transportation is rare.
00:18:56So there's the two forces cleaning up city air and, um, being able to sell into a market
00:19:03where people don't have a great deal.
00:19:06It's actually a fascinating historical, uh, reference is the size of the city going back
00:19:14to, you know, horses or I'm on foot.
00:19:17The size of the city was only so big as to how much time it took to get to the edge of
00:19:22the city.
00:19:23And then that was the edge of the city.
00:19:25Yeah.
00:19:26And now that we can get around it and as transportation grew, so did cities because
00:19:30you could get across and you could take trains and you can do all these other types of
00:19:34transportation.
00:19:36Um, but it was always very close.
00:19:38It was like, oh, it's a 45 minutes to get to the edge of the city or whatever that time
00:19:43was.
00:19:44I read a study about it and it's fascinating that we've done.
00:19:48Look at us now, look at LA.
00:19:50I mean, it doesn't end.
00:19:52It doesn't end from San Diego to Ventura.
00:19:55The Japanese became well-established selling mopeds and scooters in Southeast Asia and,
00:20:02um, at price X and the Chinese manufacturer said, that's no problem.
00:20:09We can beat that price all to pieces.
00:20:12And this is like 1999.
00:20:14And they came in with, uh, something that costs like 40% as much as the Japanese price.
00:20:22But they ignored the original Japanese experience, which was with 250 manufacturers in 1950 or
00:20:31so.
00:20:32How did we get to the big four?
00:20:35Well, the big four established dealer networks.
00:20:38They worked on reliability as a priority and they saw to it that you, your dealer could get you parts and
00:20:48could knew how to install them correctly to get you back on the road and on your way to work
00:20:55again.
00:20:58And, uh, these Chinese cut rate jobs came in and big truck loads and they would go to an area and sell them off the lift gate.
00:21:09Hey, get your mopeds.
00:21:11And, uh, they would sell out at low prices.
00:21:15And then it wasn't long before somebody needed a footrest or a handlebar lever or even a piston.
00:21:22There weren't any.
00:21:23And nobody knew anything about it.
00:21:26So in the meanwhile, the Japanese had said, we've got to work on price here.
00:21:32Yes, let's get out the big price hammer.
00:21:36And it wasn't long before God was once again in his heaven.
00:21:41And Honda had 65% or was it 69?
00:21:46Yamaha had 25 and the Chinese importers had 1% or less.
00:21:53Well, the ecosystem's always been important.
00:21:55Absolutely.
00:21:56It is a system.
00:21:58It is a system.
00:21:59Yeah.
00:22:00I mean, you know, in America, you want part support and you want a good dealer to help, you know, help keep you on the road and know what you like and have that relationship.
00:22:10But it's also the best dealers are cultural centers, no matter the brand.
00:22:15It's a place where you gather and you do all that.
00:22:18And you are among your own kind, too.
00:22:21Yeah.
00:22:21Around that time.
00:22:22Two real folks.
00:22:23Yeah.
00:22:24I want to say a little bit later than that, we did $1,000 bikes on a 1,000-mile ride.
00:22:30I remember that.
00:22:30And one of our team went on to, maybe it was the big auction site, but bought online a Chinese dirt bike, a 150, I believe it was 150cc, the Cujo's Trailmaster.
00:22:51And it dropped a valve before we finished the 1,000-mile ride.
00:23:00And I never saw a guy so happy in the world that his motorcycle dropped a valve.
00:23:05And, I mean, we didn't give it a loving break-in.
00:23:08It was nakedly cheap at the time.
00:23:11You know, the front axle stuck out.
00:23:13It had a castellated nut.
00:23:14But the front axle was, like, an inch too long.
00:23:19And so the castellations were down by the fork.
00:23:22And then an inch away from that was the hole where you'd put the cotter pin.
00:23:26And it wasn't even on that.
00:23:28Yep.
00:23:28It was not engaged in the castellations.
00:23:30And that was very typical of the time.
00:23:34And now, you know, you go to the Milan show and you've got CF Moto.
00:23:39Some beautiful stuff.
00:23:40Yeah, I mean, just CF Moto, I think, culturally is making a huge push to say, like,
00:23:49no, we're changing our philosophical relationship with the product and how we build.
00:23:58And they are really using their manufacturing might and everything.
00:24:02But they're also focusing on the way that how powerfully the Japanese stamped out problems
00:24:11and built incredibly high-quality motorcycles that were manufactured at an advantageous cost.
00:24:17The market pounds the stuffing out of a bad product.
00:24:22Yeah.
00:24:23And I remember Paul Dean telling me about unheat-treated fork tubes at the end of Osa's existence.
00:24:30Osa was a Spanish off-road bike maker of considerable repute.
00:24:37But when they had no money, you know, no bucks, no Buck Rogers.
00:24:45So when people bumped something lightly, fork tubes were bent.
00:24:52Well, it was easy to straighten them.
00:24:54So easy bend, easy straighten.
00:24:58But this is something that the Chinese market has had to learn.
00:25:04Honda went through a different, went, traveled a different path by Mr. Fujisawa, wisely saying,
00:25:11dealer network first.
00:25:12And make sure that Honda customers can keep their motorbike on the road because they need it.
00:25:22This is not a child's toy.
00:25:24This is something for adults to get to work on.
00:25:27That's a big deal, making a living.
00:25:30So, but for us Americans, we are able to give some of our attention to having fun.
00:25:37And so there are other offerings and there, there's this, this monstrous thing called an MV looks like it might even have two crankshafts and tremendous 237 horsepower claimed for it.
00:26:02And it's sort of like, um, people see Ducati doing the tease job on the internet and then man, easy cash, right?
00:26:13Let's all do it.
00:26:15But you have to follow up with something that works.
00:26:19And this is always, always the problem.
00:26:23It's easy to talk a good story, but making a good motorbike, not so easy.
00:26:30Because you have to be able to go to your supplier and say, I need this specification of steel in this heat treat condition to make front axles or fork tubes or what have you.
00:26:42You have to be able to rely on that.
00:26:45And it takes time to set up that.
00:26:47Oh, it was a classic effort at Xero.
00:26:50So Xero is, you know, the, the electric motorcycle company that's been at it for 20 years.
00:26:55Yeah.
00:26:55They're veterans in the field.
00:26:57And, uh, they're, they're still doing it.
00:26:59They've expanded into lightweights.
00:27:01They they've expanded into the kind of like mountain bikey kind of range.
00:27:04They're going to have some with license plates, but others that would be just dirt only.
00:27:08So they're getting into that small market and that kind of foundational relationship with a teenage person or whatever that gets to play on the electric bike.
00:27:17And hopefully it comes up in the ecosystem, but Xero for a very long time, even when they were, you know, iterating and innovating and changing things, they had an incredibly difficult time getting suspension from a big name brand.
00:27:35They couldn't, they couldn't, they couldn't, they couldn't get show on the phone and we were getting like very weird suspension manufacturers that you sort of hadn't heard of and stuff that was, it was not great, but it was there.
00:27:48And a lot of their, and a lot of their body work was sort of like, eh, it's not, you know, it's a little plasticky.
00:27:53It doesn't look, it doesn't have that, uh, sheen.
00:27:56This is called, this is called suffering for your art.
00:28:00They're preserving the thing by, by doing what they could.
00:28:03But they, you know, they've persisted and now they've, they've got supplier base.
00:28:10I mean, they're, they're not Harley Davidson, but they've got supplier base and they're making, you know, they're making products that kind of fit the bill.
00:28:17It's nice.
00:28:18The same process of starting out with mild steel and you name it, aluminum, the U.S. had to go through this process.
00:28:28In 1910, if a premium auto manufacturer wanted to make crankshafts, they had to order the bar stock, if not the entire crankshaft itself, from Germany or from France, where alloy steels were better understood than here in the U.S.
00:28:47Then, of course, in 1917, the U.S. got involved in World War I and it became very important that parts should not break.
00:28:58And through the 20s, just fierce development of all kinds of precision metallurgy and availability of all these special materials went right up because it was needed.
00:29:16So in other parts of the world, similar process may be tackled in a different way.
00:29:21I was delighted to see this BMW F450 GS, which is a little parallel twin with an odd 135 degree angle between its crank pins.
00:29:37And in this world of horizontal torque curves from here to there, they have, that motorcycle has a haystack torque curve.
00:29:50It's really quite tall in the middle, like almost race engine quality.
00:29:58They work very hard to give it the punch that the riders would like to feel because this is a good-looking off-road bike, multipurpose, obviously.
00:30:12And what they did was, this is aimed at European A2 license holders.
00:30:20And there is a 0.2 kilowatt per kilogram limit for what an A2 license holder can ride as a motorbike.
00:30:31So they had to ease off the horsepower to the claimed 48.
00:30:38And otherwise, the engine has a 71 by 51.6 borne stroke, four valves per cylinder.
00:30:48The two camshafts are so close together that they're geared together.
00:30:53And the silent chain drives one of them from the crank.
00:30:58And so this is a product that was aimed at a specific legal niche, but by camming it differently, for the non-A2, they could have whatever they like.
00:31:12Good-looking bike.
00:31:15I'm sure that there's some use of pressed steel where aluminum might be present on a pricier model.
00:31:23But if you're building a ladder, if you put the bottom rung out of reach of too many people, you might suffer poor sales.
00:31:34So here is a GS that more people can afford.
00:31:40Yeah, certainly in the American market, we're seeing a decline in motorcycle sales.
00:31:47But there's certain segments that are bucking that trend.
00:31:49And one of those is the light adventure bike.
00:31:51So your Himalayan 450 and CF Moto, those are there.
00:31:56People are buying those.
00:31:57They're affordable and they have a lot of utility and good times, very flexible, use them a lot of different ways.
00:32:03You can grind out your commute, but you can also head up the mountain and taste your freedom.
00:32:08So it's cool that BMW is getting in there.
00:32:11The same thing that KTM has been doing with partnership in India and lowering the cost of the motorcycle.
00:32:20The middleweight adventure bike sales are a little bit down there.
00:32:24And that would be the target kind of moderately salaried person.
00:32:30Somebody there in the middle class, they're moving to that cheaper bike.
00:32:34Or you have the people, you know, the heavyweight adventure bike.
00:32:37Those sales have not yet declined through this point in the year.
00:32:42And those sell in large part to people who don't have to worry about how much it costs.
00:32:52Yeah, they're insulated from the whims of the market to some degree.
00:32:56So I applaud that.
00:33:02And I think that it's another example of flexible engineering that this 450 can appear now as an A2 bike,
00:33:14but it could also appear as quite a sprightly, if it were recammed, a sprightly 450.
00:33:22And who knows, there might be people who see an advantage in a motorcycle,
00:33:28riding a motorcycle that more closely resembles themselves in its weight.
00:33:38Because there's a lot of this, putting the same basic engine in lots of motorcycles
00:33:43as a means of achieving sensible economies.
00:33:48Now, what about this BSA Bantam?
00:33:51I think, because I'm wicked old, I remember that the Bantam was the least thing you could buy that was a motorcycle.
00:34:01It had two wire-spoke wheels of relatively full size.
00:34:06And it had this terrible little motor with a three-speed transmission.
00:34:11And when you looked in the cylinder, which I certainly did,
00:34:14the ports, the transfers especially, looked as though they could be flaws in the casting.
00:34:23They were small.
00:34:26Well, it reminds me of, it reminds me of what you said.
00:34:29How much does it cost to build a Cadillac?
00:34:34$28 a pound.
00:34:35So, if you only have three gears, that's lighter than four.
00:34:40And if the engine is squished and tiny, that's only as much material as you need to barely make the engine.
00:34:46I bought a clutch for that BSA Bantam.
00:34:49It came in a manila envelope like this, and I shook it.
00:34:52And there was a papery rattling.
00:34:54And I opened the lid, and there were little cork buttons.
00:34:58So, when I took my clutch apart, there were blackened, carbonaceous-looking buttons in the punched holes in the clutch plate.
00:35:08So, I'll go ahead and save Alicet, folks, just for you, because I know we've talked for almost 40 minutes.
00:35:14Where I'm going with this BSA Bantam thing is, I'm old enough to remember how terrible the Bantam was.
00:35:20And for you Harley folks, the Hummer, which was built under the same inspiration, namely the DKW RT-125, a minimal motorcycle.
00:35:36Nothing wrong with that.
00:35:38It would take you places at 45 miles an hour.
00:35:42But it's okay to name it that now, because people riding motorcycles aren't as old as I am.
00:35:48And when they say BSA, people will say, oh, I remember that name.
00:35:53Yeah, BSA Bantam.
00:35:56Maybe I remember that name, too.
00:35:58But they don't have the negative connotations that they do for me.
00:36:04So, I hope that works out.
00:36:06Same with the Norton to call something the Manx.
00:36:10The Manx had a lot of personality.
00:36:12I'm not sure that this new product has yet developed as strong a personality as that.
00:36:20I wish them well.
00:36:22But this is sort of reaching back, buying the rights to a name that exists in a lot of people's heads.
00:36:32The people's heads are the lock.
00:36:34The name is the key.
00:36:35And we saw what happened when Polaris gave up on victory and bought the Indian name.
00:36:42Doubled their sales.
00:36:44So, there's value there.
00:36:46And I certainly wish them well.
00:36:48But again, I want to say, for details, see your dealer.
00:36:52Well, they're backed.
00:36:55I mean, you know, Norton is backed by a massive manufacturer.
00:37:00So, the idea that they won't be supported seems far-fetched.
00:37:07They wouldn't make the investment.
00:37:09They've got manufacturing.
00:37:12You know, I think we're going to see the rise.
00:37:16Royal Enfield supports its product.
00:37:18Yes, they have an excellent reputation.
00:37:20And I admire that.
00:37:23That's why I just say such things as I wish them well.
00:37:27I think the discipline that Royal Enfield has shown, we're going to dominate middleweight motorcycles.
00:37:34That's our space.
00:37:35We're going to make affordable, fun motorcycles.
00:37:38It's not technology-driven.
00:37:40It's experience-driven.
00:37:43Yep.
00:37:44It's driven by the visual signature of the Bear 650.
00:37:47That bike is very, very close to the Interceptor.
00:37:52Excuse me, INT.
00:37:55But it has a vibe.
00:37:56And it has a different vibe.
00:37:57And it has a different fork.
00:37:58And it has a different feeling.
00:37:59When you look at it, you feel a certain way.
00:38:01And when you ride it, it delivers something that's pleasurable.
00:38:04And it isn't a long list of features.
00:38:07And it isn't, oh, we're going to make 227 horsepower.
00:38:09We're going to make 202 horsepower.
00:38:11Which is essentially inaccessible.
00:38:15It's wonderful to have a relationship with big numbers and all of that.
00:38:20But that's where Norton, I'm curious about how Norton is going about this.
00:38:26Because the presentation of the bikes were all these silver, sleek.
00:38:31Like, they're nicely designed.
00:38:35They're interestingly designed.
00:38:37But what are we, I was curious about what are we trying to evoke there?
00:38:44You know, what is the Manx R supposed to be making me feel?
00:38:47And that's what I looked at.
00:38:48I'm like, no, it looks pretty good.
00:38:50It's pretty sleek.
00:38:51But it isn't MotoGP inspired.
00:38:55And it isn't a race bike.
00:38:57Whereas you, you know, you look at the CF Moto and you're like, oh, look at that.
00:39:01It's got wings.
00:39:02And look at the way the exhaust is.
00:39:03That's MotoGP.
00:39:04Yeah.
00:39:04Like, even though they're not there, they could be there.
00:39:09You sort of think like, well, yeah.
00:39:11I mean, if they sell a lot of bikes and they want to dominate the market and they want to compete,
00:39:16KTM's doing it.
00:39:17We could do it.
00:39:19Yeah.
00:39:19And you see the product and it makes sense.
00:39:21And I look at the Manx R and I say, that's a handsome motorcycle.
00:39:24But where's, as you said, what's the, what is the person?
00:39:29Yeah.
00:39:29What's the personality and how does it relate to the Norton name?
00:39:32Like the last resonant motorcycle that we had from Norton was a Commando.
00:39:39And that was what Kenny Dreer tried to revive.
00:39:43That is what Garner probably didn't try to revive.
00:39:47A lot of shell game, bikes coming back for warranty, taking bikes out of the warranty bike and fixing the bike that was already in for warranty that had already been there for a really long time.
00:39:59And then sending that out.
00:40:00Oh, it's going to be a little while longer to the new guy.
00:40:03And then finally it fell apart because he was, you know, taking money from his retirement.
00:40:08At some point, the last year of manufacture, the Manx was 63 and those were built from parts.
00:40:15And after that, nothing.
00:40:17The time will come and it may have done now.
00:40:20When the people who want to buy a motorcycle don't remember, that name doesn't have any resonance with them.
00:40:29In which case, it's up to the people who own the name to provide this, the strong, recognizable personality that makes people say, I want it.
00:40:40That's good.
00:40:41It's for me.
00:40:42And otherwise, it's like a huge spaceship was found in orbit around the Earth and human-like creatures descended to Earth and decided to manufacture motorcycles.
00:40:57They studied the market and they made these things.
00:41:00There was always something missing because they were the creation of people who had no connection to the motorcycle.
00:41:10And this is a danger.
00:41:11Oh, let's do this.
00:41:13We have money.
00:41:15Let's manufacture this product.
00:41:17Well, if you look at the previous iterations of Indian, Climber bought Velocets and put Indian stickers on them.
00:41:27Yeah.
00:41:27He brought British 500 singles and said, Indian.
00:41:31And that's cool.
00:41:33Like, great.
00:41:34Except, you know, like, where's the relationship and authenticity?
00:41:39And that's where I think Royal Enfield is succeeding because if you look at the side of this 650 twin, it looks like the Royal Enfield of 1967.
00:41:51Like, you see the shapes.
00:41:53You see the beef in the cylinder.
00:41:57It triggers something for those people.
00:42:00But also, look at the bike.
00:42:02Look at the bear scrambler-ish vibe.
00:42:05And you don't have to know anything about the 67 Interceptor, 68 Interceptor.
00:42:13You don't.
00:42:14You don't have to know anything about it.
00:42:15You just look at that bike and go, oh, that's cool.
00:42:18And, you know, it doesn't make a ton of horsepower.
00:42:21It's not a featherweight.
00:42:22But it's a manageable human size.
00:42:25It's light enough.
00:42:27And it runs nice.
00:42:27And it feels good.
00:42:28And you put pipes on it.
00:42:30Or you call S&S and you put 750 cc pistons in it or eight.
00:42:34I think they've got over 800.
00:42:36You can hop it up.
00:42:37It's relatively easy to work on.
00:42:39And that's the new relationship.
00:42:41That's the 26-year-old who's like, man, that's like 6,500 bucks, 5,900 bucks.
00:42:47It's attainable, and it does its thing, and they run.
00:42:53And, you know, where does Norton now fit into that?
00:43:02That's such an interesting.
00:43:04Now, there's this talk of a dealerless future.
00:43:10And the idea is that you would select your motorcycle from among the teases available
00:43:16on the internet, and one day it would come to you.
00:43:22And if you needed parts, they would come to you.
00:43:28But who are you?
00:43:29A mechanic?
00:43:33There's a problem there.
00:43:35Are you going to change your own tires when that time comes?
00:43:38Or if you don't like the tires that are on it?
00:43:40The dealer has tremendous value.
00:43:43And I think that whether this type of sale is unloaded from the internet or from the back
00:43:53of a truck doesn't make a lot of difference.
00:43:56Because if you can't get parts and service, you're stuck.
00:44:01Yeah, there have been various swirls in the what's going to happen is digital retailing the future.
00:44:11There's certainly a segment of the future.
00:44:14There's certainly a space for that's the car I want.
00:44:18That's the motorcycle I want.
00:44:19You've read reviews.
00:44:23You know, 20, 30 years ago, 40 years ago, you had motorcycle magazines and dealers and ads.
00:44:36That was kind of how you found it.
00:44:37And then a friend, a friend would tell you about things.
00:44:39And you would go to a dealer and the dealer would start to tell you about details, about financing, about how to get the bike, about parts.
00:44:50You kind of had that relationship.
00:44:52And now there are unlimited channels of information, whether with varying degrees of accuracy or background.
00:45:03But you can go into a dealership and the customer going to a dealership at this point really does know a lot.
00:45:09They've had a lot of decisions and information put in their head.
00:45:14But as you're pointing out, having a dealership is really important.
00:45:24It's important for the entire, again, it's the ecosystem.
00:45:27And every time we pick a touring bike that isn't a Harley Davidson or a Honda, you know, if we pick a best tourer and we pick a K1600 GT or GTL, which we did a number of years ago, 10 years ago.
00:45:42So, fabulous motorcycle, still in production, variations, great.
00:45:47Hot, hot, hot sizzle, man.
00:45:49Really fun.
00:45:51Electronic suspension, all those gizmos.
00:45:55Really good stuff.
00:45:57But you pick that bike and the reader is like, nope, never.
00:46:02Doesn't have enough dealers.
00:46:04If I have a problem in Montana, how many dealers are there?
00:46:10If I have a problem in North Dakota, what am I going to do?
00:46:15Call the SAG wagons.
00:46:17Yeah.
00:46:18Every dealer.
00:46:19And, you know, problems are few and far between.
00:46:21But if you're riding a Harley Davidson, almost, what is it?
00:46:27Probably every town has somebody who works on a Harley.
00:46:30Yeah.
00:46:31And there's dealers, you know, there's 800-ish dealers.
00:46:35And the new CEO is working on the relationship with the dealers.
00:46:41And he's, you know, he's working to put the Midwestern heart back into that company.
00:46:46But dealer relationship is really important.
00:46:49And can you order a bike online?
00:46:51You will be able to.
00:46:52You can.
00:46:52And, you know, our parent company, Octane Lending, you know, they think the ultimate goal would be digital retailing in some form.
00:47:01The ability to be a part of that commercial process that says, I love that click and I'm getting it.
00:47:08You know, the.
00:47:08But following up with service.
00:47:13Oh, we'll just have service centers.
00:47:15There have been so many models that have been talked about.
00:47:17Like, well, the regular dealer, we need to.
00:47:19What we need is you buy it online directly from us.
00:47:21And, wow, we get 20% or 50%, whatever the margin is now.
00:47:25Because they've been grinding.
00:47:26Everybody's been grinding the margin against the dealer.
00:47:29So there aren't too many 30% margins that I can think of anymore.
00:47:36But you were selling the bike.
00:47:38And getting the aftermarket and getting the service and all of that.
00:47:43And, like, what is the future model for retailing?
00:47:48It's a fascinating challenge.
00:47:49Well, I'm imagining medical services by internet.
00:47:55And next day delivery kit comes for your appendectomy.
00:48:01Everything's in the kit.
00:48:02It's all there.
00:48:03All you need is a skill.
00:48:04So I was pleased to see that Harley are proceeding with their bagger's cup in Europe.
00:48:18And the replica bike at $110,000.
00:48:24It's a lovely thing.
00:48:26Yeah.
00:48:26It's kind of – it is a replica.
00:48:28It uses a lot of the parts.
00:48:29But it's not – let's just be clear.
00:48:31It's not a homologation special.
00:48:33You're not going to – you're getting all the sauce.
00:48:36And then it's being, like, streetified so that you can take your $110,000 RR out and enjoy a very direct connection.
00:48:46This is a very hard time for Harley-Davidson because, including before World War II, much of their sales went overseas.
00:48:57Because American-made motorcycles had an excellent reputation for ruggedness.
00:49:05And the tariff situation now is difficult for them.
00:49:12So I'm glad to see them proceeding with stuff.
00:49:16And we wish them well, too.
00:49:19But this – I sort of look at this particular EICMA as there are teasers out there, these over 200-horsepower jobs.
00:49:34There are prototypes that might or might not be built.
00:49:38There are long lists of wonderful electronic support for the rider.
00:49:45Does it reach a limit?
00:49:46But it's quite a smorgasbord.
00:49:53Yeah, retros were a pretty big thing there, too.
00:49:56You know, you had your Honda thousands and stuff that looked like 80s superbikes.
00:50:00And interesting plays there where we're – again, we're trying to capture that feeling of riding.
00:50:09Yes.
00:50:10Less with – I mean, the ZX-10 got some notable –
00:50:16updates, but it's not all new.
00:50:20There isn't a big commercial band available to them to sell a lot of 1,000cc superbikes.
00:50:28They're selling in South America.
00:50:30Kawasaki's are doing well in the Western Hemisphere.
00:50:35But, I mean, comparatively well.
00:50:37But there is something about some of those colors that – imagine going into a dealer in 1973 and looking at a new Z1 and not being able to resist.
00:50:50People love that feeling.
00:50:53They loved it then.
00:50:54And retro bikes provide that – an approach to recovering that feeling.
00:51:03Yeah, recovering the feeling without paying a lot of the price either.
00:51:08Not that, you know, the original Z1s were pretty reliable motorcycles.
00:51:11That was a wonderful coming of age.
00:51:15You know, the way that – what would you say, Kevin, for the automobile, like the American automobile by 1965, 64?
00:51:27Yeah.
00:51:27Well, I mean, when it was really, really figured out, was like 64, 65, 67 at the latest.
00:51:36Like that era of car was in a very high reliability band.
00:51:45Like for GM, Turbo Hydromatic, the TH400, the transmission that powered them for decades, was debuted in the 64 Cadillac first year, the Turbo Hydromatic 400.
00:52:01So that's like – it's figured out.
00:52:03It's a great transmission.
00:52:05It's durable.
00:52:06It's easy to fix.
00:52:07It's easy to manufacture.
00:52:08It's quiet.
00:52:09It's smooth.
00:52:09It does its job.
00:52:12The Carter AFB.
00:52:14That was on top of that Cadillac 429.
00:52:20Impeccably, impeccably made carburetor.
00:52:24Beautiful carburetion.
00:52:25Dampers for closing.
00:52:27All these adjustments that made you walk out to your Cadillac, the Cadillac I owned.
00:52:31Turned the key.
00:52:32Thing went, oh, fast idle.
00:52:35Rapidly settled down.
00:52:36Always smooth.
00:52:38Great throttle response.
00:52:39All of that.
00:52:40For motorcycles, it was less of a 60s thing.
00:52:43It was more like 1972.
00:52:46Things were like, oh, yeah, getting capacitive discharge ignitions, stuff where we weren't like, you know, XS650.
00:52:53Charming, pretty reliable, but brushed alternator and points snapping open and closed on the camshaft with a long shaft that got gummy and would stick the timing or the springs would wear out.
00:53:06And all that was starting to disappear as you got into the mid-70s.
00:53:10And bikes just ran and ran.
00:53:11So they were pretty good.
00:53:12But now, I mean, they just, you just turn them on.
00:53:17Yep.
00:53:18You want to do a wheelie, ice-cold motorcycle?
00:53:20Do a wheelie?
00:53:21Do a burnout?
00:53:22I mean, it's probably not very kind to the motorcycle.
00:53:24Your wish is my command.
00:53:26But it doesn't care.
00:53:27And that's what's so great, like a Z900, fabulous motorcycle, visual signature, and 0% pain in the ass.
00:53:38That's good.
00:53:40Yeah.
00:53:40So it is.
00:53:41Well, clearly, the industry is sort of waiting for things to stabilize before it can decide what's next.
00:53:53It could be what's next is more in the line of the Royal Enfield, some simplicity.
00:54:00I was interested to see on this BMW 450 that although the frame is tubular, there are forged or cast lugs into which the tubes fit.
00:54:14So it's a kind of retro in that way.
00:54:18It's also a convenient way to build something that is dimensionally okay.
00:54:24And it was nice to see that again.
00:54:31And I really puzzled over that haystack torque curve until I saw, I realized what A2 meant.
00:54:39The A2 license places limits on weight per horsepower.
00:54:46So it's for beginning riders, which is something that they employ in Euro-speaking countries.
00:55:01But there's always a lovely rushed feeling at these shows.
00:55:08If you're there on the first day, you see the zonked out staff arriving from distant places by overnight flights.
00:55:20And they just look so puzzled.
00:55:23They're trying to get their booths open.
00:55:25They're trying to get their product on show.
00:55:27And they just want to go to sleep.
00:55:30But you feel that drumbeat of stuff happening.
00:55:35And there will be plenty of new models one day.
00:55:43We don't know when.
00:55:45But right now, we have things like this V3R that could go in different directions.
00:55:52It's a 900 until the electric supercharger tells it to be a 1200.
00:55:59And I think that's lovely.
00:56:01Oh, it's fascinating.
00:56:02And it's just interesting.
00:56:03They put the body work on it.
00:56:05So last year, the debut.
00:56:07I mean, we are stretching out the introduction, right?
00:56:09We're making the most of this.
00:56:11So last year, bare chassis, engine, some parts floating around.
00:56:15Nothing super-
00:56:17And the electric unit, right?
00:56:18Right behind the head.
00:56:19Yeah, electric unit.
00:56:19And there it is looking interesting.
00:56:22And then we get body work.
00:56:23And then it's asymmetrical because the one side's got air stuffing into it coming around.
00:56:28And it's fascinating.
00:56:33I think that for me, that's the most interesting bike out of it.
00:56:36I think the prototype CF Moto, sort of MotoGP-inspired superbike is also fascinating.
00:56:45The rise of Chinese manufacturing.
00:56:48There's a Kobe 800 middleweight adventure that's coming in, you know, not that much, over 400 pounds.
00:56:58That's great.
00:56:59You know?
00:57:00Yes, indeed.
00:57:00There's a three-cylinder sport bike that's relatively lightweight out of China.
00:57:09It's-
00:57:11What is it?
00:57:12It encourages reaction and it encourages disciplined thinking from somebody who's a market-dominating force.
00:57:20So if you're sitting in-
00:57:21You know, if you're a Japanese manufacturer and you're seeing this, you have to make your decisions on what you're investing in and how light can you make it.
00:57:29So just, and also pointing out for, sorry, for CF Moto, pointing out Kiska design is doing CF Moto product design.
00:57:38So when you get a, you know, there are our model CF Moto superbike thing.
00:57:47Well, yeah, it's got a proposed 200 plus horsepower and it has the visual signature that the Western world certainly is looking for and the Eastern world.
00:57:57I mean, everybody, the globe watches Moto GP and those are the things that say this is the maximum technology and performance available.
00:58:06And so they're, they're building a product that they're investing that kind of technology into because you can't build that signature without putting something into it.
00:58:15And with a manufacturer like CF Moto who's establishing itself, it's highly unlikely that they don't deliver because, because you can call like Mala, you can call anyone, you can call the cam people, the piston people, the combustion chamber people.
00:58:31Like there's plenty of consultation for you to end up making what you need to make to make the motorcycle.
00:58:38Next flight to Banbury, England.
00:58:39Yeah.
00:58:40It could be, or it could be happening in China.
00:58:43You know, it's like you hire the talent.
00:58:45But we've wondered, we've wondered over the past, well, many years about why we weren't getting certain models from Japan and why it seemed like our connection to Japan was growing thinner.
00:58:59And the answer is that the U.S. was not the bottomless economic engine that we all hoped.
00:59:11What they were doing was the Japanese companies were building the de facto transportation system of Southeast Asia in the form of all those mopeds and scooters.
00:59:25They aren't just, they aren't just, they aren't just, they aren't just something that's leaning against the fence somewhere and the kids ride at some time.
00:59:32That's, that's what we're accustomed to.
00:59:36Um, these are daily drivers.
00:59:40Yeah, working motorcycles.
00:59:42For societies that are not producing $100,000 income just yet.
00:59:48Um, old Bill, um, of Microsoft.
00:59:55Has been criticized for asking if it's sensible to go headlong after low, uh, emissions, everything.
01:00:07When it might be a better move to improve the economics of all us humans.
01:00:14So that we'll be better able individually to deal with changes that may come in the climate.
01:00:21Um, and yes, an emergency, yes, to decarbonization.
01:00:28The cities, um, abroad are looking to electric, small electric motorbikes for solid economic reasons.
01:00:40Uh, but European manufacturers have stepped up.
01:00:46European manufacturers dominate MotoGP.
01:00:51How could this happen?
01:00:52Well, um, the Japanese companies were busy elsewhere.
01:00:58They didn't realize how fast this whole wings and downforce would become influential.
01:01:07Don't know.
01:01:07But there has been a shift there.
01:01:11It's shifting all the time.
01:01:13And it's fascinating to watch.
01:01:17So I'm hoping that, uh, this trend toward, uh, affordable middleweights, uh, continues.
01:01:25Because that means more fun for more people.
01:01:33Motorcycles are fun.
01:01:34They are fun.
01:01:35You ever notice that?
01:01:37They are fun.
01:01:39Gosh, they are fun.
01:01:40Well, I think, uh, I agree.
01:01:43I hope, I hope for more middleweights.
01:01:45Because what I get, or that affordable bike, um, I just rode yesterday, I rode my XS650 to the office.
01:01:54Or it's actually, the, the detail people will say, no, it's an XS2, because it is an XS2.
01:02:00It's a 1972 XS650.
01:02:02And I, I revived, I revived it.
01:02:04I did a video for the Motorcyclist channel.
01:02:06And it's actually a really good running bike now.
01:02:09You know, the carburation is, is pretty good.
01:02:12And, um, I fixed the ignition, I fixed the advance, and it's, I'm still running points,
01:02:17and I still have carbon brushes on the alternator.
01:02:20But riding that motorcycle, short shift, you know, five gears, 60 miles an hour, 65.
01:02:26And I'm just commuting on it.
01:02:28You know, skinny tires, low seat, electric or kickstarting, click, choke, click off.
01:02:35Like, as soon as it starts, click it back off.
01:02:38Runs fine.
01:02:39It's wonderful.
01:02:41It's so fun.
01:02:42And I mean, I can pick the V4R also.
01:02:45We have, or sorry, we had a V4S, Ducati V4S, M1000RR, R1300GS.
01:02:51Fascinating, wonderful motorcycles.
01:02:53But the pure experience, I can get that out of the XS650.
01:02:57Now, not everybody wants to fix the points on that, like I did, where the advance mechanism
01:03:01is sticking.
01:03:02So you pull the thing out, clean the carbon, like the horrible grease off of it.
01:03:06Get your nice red lithium in there.
01:03:10Slide her back in.
01:03:11Ooh, free as can be.
01:03:12Put your new advance springs so you can just buy them.
01:03:15And the ignition does what it does, and it idles the same every time mechanically.
01:03:19Like, I'm into that.
01:03:21But there's plenty of people who aren't into that, and they don't have a 13mm wrench,
01:03:24or they don't have a JIS screwdriver, and they don't necessarily want it.
01:03:29And that's where you do that, or you do an MT-07.
01:03:33Like, this gives you the retro vibe, and if you want the new tech version of that, or
01:03:37even a retro vibe, you can go to Yamaha, Suzuki, all of them.
01:03:42Everybody's automating clutching.
01:03:45Another trend.
01:03:46Yeah, we're getting...
01:03:47This is a big one.
01:03:48...taking the fuss out of it.
01:03:50It's been talked about for 50 years, and it has come, and it has gone, and it's come
01:03:57back again, and now it looks like it has a firm hold, because it is reasonable to ride
01:04:05a motorcycle and let it do all of these mechanical things that used to be up to the rider, and
01:04:15which you no longer have to be.
01:04:17It doesn't mean that you're not a man if you're not tramping on a shift pedal and pulling
01:04:23on a clutch, and you can feed the torque to the rear wheel with that fine left hand.
01:04:30Those are great skills.
01:04:32They're still usable today.
01:04:34Lots of...
01:04:35But the thing is, is you can...
01:04:37You can choose.
01:04:37Well, the overload of trying to learn to ride a bike, you can take that away.
01:04:43You can go electric.
01:04:44You can buy it.
01:04:45You can get a Royal Enfield Flying Flea.
01:04:47Bottom rung of the ladder closer to the ground.
01:04:50Right.
01:04:51And you just...
01:04:52You don't have to go through the overload of...
01:04:55I learned to street ride.
01:04:57I mean, I'd ridden like XR75s and stuff before, but I learned to street ride on an RD400 Daytona
01:05:03Special.
01:05:04Like, that was the bike I learned to not...
01:05:08You know, I mean, I survived, barely, but it combined all those things, and I modified
01:05:13it practically right away.
01:05:14I put pipes on it, you know?
01:05:18But you take it away.
01:05:20Well, yeah.
01:05:20And so you're looking at...
01:05:21You're looking at going back in time and saying, oh, CB750A, circa 1980.
01:05:30A big Taurus, a torque converter, and blah.
01:05:34Very, very not motorcycle kind of experience.
01:05:36It was automatic.
01:05:39And Chuck Clayton, the guy who owned Cycle News way back in the day, I was helped cleaning
01:05:43out their warehouse.
01:05:44And Chuck Clayton had a CB750A, and it had a cup holder and a cigarette lighter.
01:05:49And he wanted to smoke while he...
01:05:50Because he smoked a lot.
01:05:51He wanted to smoke while he ride.
01:05:53And an automatic was great for that.
01:05:54And what they're talking about now is not an automatic, but automated clutch and throttle.
01:06:03So automated clutch and shifting.
01:06:06So that you turn the throttle to ride away, which was C100.
01:06:13It's a gift to the world.
01:06:16Where I was going is...
01:06:17100 million sold.
01:06:19Yeah.
01:06:19Where I was going is now you have DCT on Goldwing.
01:06:24Yep.
01:06:25And the take rate is somewhere in the 80% range.
01:06:28Good one.
01:06:29But BMW automatic shift assistant.
01:06:32So DCT is like the full commitment to automated shifting or push-button shifting.
01:06:40Automatic shift assistant with BMW is here's the existing gearbox, and we've automated the
01:06:48existing pieces.
01:06:49We've automated the clutch.
01:06:51There is a shift lever, which you can use, and it even is a little bulky inside at times.
01:06:55But it's purely an electric switch.
01:06:57It's not connected mechanically to the interior.
01:07:00It's not connected to the shift drum.
01:07:02And you can shift it like a motorcycle, like as a manual, but there's no clutch lever.
01:07:09And the mapping that they did, they did a really great job mapping the engagement of the clutch.
01:07:14There are a few situations where it's a little chunky at times because it isn't dual clutch.
01:07:19It's not instantaneous transfer of torque between gears the way a DCT works.
01:07:24But it's really darn good.
01:07:26And then the Honda, you know, automated clutch, like it's here and it's working.
01:07:32And every, that's the thing about electrics, as we've discussed before, the thing about
01:07:36an electric is it gets rid of every, everything that's annoying or difficult about internal
01:07:44combustion on a regular motorcycle.
01:07:47It gets, it's all about the quirks.
01:07:49Oh, it needs to idle and it has to be disconnected from the drive.
01:07:53Well, that's the problem.
01:07:55Yeah.
01:07:55And so you either put an automatic on it and you have gears or you do an electric where you, you know,
01:08:01and for street riding, you don't need multiple gears.
01:08:04If you were racing an electric, you'd probably want at least three or four gears to keep,
01:08:08to keep.
01:08:09But as it is, you just turn and hum off.
01:08:12Yes.
01:08:14No fuss, no muss.
01:08:16Yeah.
01:08:17Nothing.
01:08:18It can't help but continue to keep people engaged in riding and learning about it because it is
01:08:24such a wonderful way of life.
01:08:26The feeling of riding and balancing.
01:08:28Like, I love using a clutch.
01:08:32And if you asked me, do you want a DCT or do you want a manual shift?
01:08:37I'd probably choose a manual shift because I've spent my whole life doing that.
01:08:40Yep.
01:08:41And I'm, you know, I'm proud of my U-turns because I've done a million U-turns for photos,
01:08:46like on terrible tight roads, on big bikes.
01:08:50And you'd practice all that and you get, you've, it's part of your relationship.
01:08:53There's a poem by Rainer Rilke that says something about, you know, if only we embrace that which
01:09:01is the most difficult, it will become the most dear.
01:09:04I've butchered that, but it is.
01:09:06It's like, oh, I'm learning to play the guitar.
01:09:09Man, what a pain in the ass.
01:09:10Like, I can't even believe that I still play the guitar because learning how to do it in
01:09:15the beginning, my fingers hurt and it sounded terrible.
01:09:19But you'd get like this little nugget of like making a tone and you're like, oh,
01:09:23I made a tone that sounded kind of good.
01:09:26You earned something.
01:09:28And, and there's something there, but if you can lower that entry and you can get someone
01:09:33learning balance and getting a taste, like I don't need a clutch to have a good time necessarily
01:09:38on a motorcycle.
01:09:39Like I love riding electrics.
01:09:41They feel great.
01:09:42Lean it over, blast off the corner.
01:09:44You get the experience.
01:09:46You can add to that later.
01:09:48It's like deciding to race or not race.
01:09:51Eric Bostrom rode a, uh, an electric at Laguna in some semi contest.
01:09:58And he said, this thing kind of gets away from me.
01:10:02Is there any way you could arrange some kind of anti-spin?
01:10:05Overnight.
01:10:06They wrote a little program, fixed it right up because electric is easy to control digitally.
01:10:16Internal combustion is amenable to control, which is why today's motorcycles are so much easier
01:10:23to ride than they used to be, but it's not perfectly simple.
01:10:29So, um, start with something easy.
01:10:32If that pleases you move on to something more traditional, if that pleases you, you have choices
01:10:40now, well, that's it folks.
01:10:45We've wandered off to the beginning of a new podcast by retreading automatics and technology,
01:10:51which we have, we have done podcasts on and which we will probably revisit.
01:10:55It's, it might be time for another bagger podcast because who knows what's going to happen next.
01:11:00Yeah.
01:11:01Um, in racing, uh, where's Indian going?
01:11:03I think I have an idea who will be running the race team, uh, next year for Indian, given the relationship
01:11:11of Terry Vance and, uh, uh, uh, Mike, what's Mike Kennedy, Mike Kennedy worked at Vance and Hines.
01:11:20Vance and Hines has been running a bagger racing team.
01:11:22Mike Kennedy is now in charge of Indian.
01:11:26Yep.
01:11:26You know, that's not calculus.
01:11:30We'll see.
01:11:31We'll see what happens.
01:11:32But, uh, thanks for listening folks.
01:11:34I hope we didn't wander off too far for you and, um, we will catch you on the next one.
01:11:39Thanks for listening.
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