- 2 hours ago
Well Enough Episode 9: Men, Beauty and Body image with Jules Von Help and Brendan J DunlopSource The Independent
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00:00My body dysmorphia started in early teens and really shaped everything about who I was.
00:10It shaped the lessons that I would go to, the parties that I would go to, the people that I was hanging out with.
00:18It held me back. It shattered my confidence.
00:22What I saw in front of the mirror now I see was not reality.
00:26And it was like something else was looking back at me.
00:30And I placed so much blame on the shape of my body, on the texture of my skin, on how I thought I was within this life.
00:43That then led to self-harming, suicidal thoughts and moments in my life.
00:51And then eating disorders throughout my whole teens.
00:55It affected the people that I dated, situations that I was in, jobs that I would or wouldn't go for.
01:04And then at the age of 32, I'm 39 now, I had this moment where I was launching my own beauty brand.
01:13There was all about body confidence.
01:15And I'm sure we'll get into it because I was a spray tanner for 20 years.
01:20And having worked with so much nudity, I realized that actually, you know, the true glow comes from within.
01:25And I decided to publicly go on a journey in learning to like and love who I was.
01:33And it's only since then that my life has shifted.
01:36I've become more confident in who I am.
01:39But yeah, body confidence for me has been a roller coaster of a journey.
01:46And I've gone from hating pretty much every single aspect of who I am to now sitting on this podcast.
01:52I'm talking about loving my body and celebrating who I am and realizing that actually how I look is the least interesting thing about myself.
02:01Gosh, thank you for sharing that.
02:04I mean, no small thing seeps into absolutely every aspect of how you move through the world.
02:09I wonder, Brendan, whether you can cast some light on how common an experience that is.
02:15Is this something that lots and lots of young men are experiencing?
02:19Yes, I guess is the short answer.
02:21And yeah, thanks for sharing, Jules.
02:22Some of your experiences that you've reflected upon there and the journey you've gone on is not uncommon for a lot of people, unfortunately.
02:28We know that the role of social media, peer influence, even elements of other parts of the media and generational narratives can all affect body confidence and body image and self-esteem.
02:45And as you've highlighted, there are a lot of related challenges that can come from that that aren't always visible.
02:52Things like self-harmful behaviours, eating difficulties and relationship problems and challenges.
03:00So it's incredibly common, unfortunately.
03:04And yeah, it's something that we don't talk enough about.
03:08I mean, I read a stat that 48% of men and boys that are school age and working age are experiencing some form of body image issue that's causing them to experience poor mental health.
03:21And to me, that was huge.
03:23I thought, OK, so half of men and boys are walking around having these emotions and they're not really encouraged to talk about them.
03:31It seems like the last taboo a little bit because we're saying, oh, yeah, men should speak about their mental health more.
03:36But they're not necessarily talking about the primary drivers of what's causing those mental health issues.
03:40And in many cases, it seems like a lot of that is body image related.
03:44The role that toxic masculinity plays in this is really prominent.
03:49I think there are narratives connected to femininity and woman-ness and what that means, that interplay here as well.
03:57But yeah, it's quite a shocking stat, isn't it?
04:01And a lot of this, because we're not talking about it, when it occurs for us, it feels really alien.
04:07It feels isolating.
04:10That sense of, well, it must just be something wrong with me is so strong that, of course, people don't talk about it.
04:19And that's what we need to try and break the stigma around so that we do get into the flow of talking about it more so that we can help people and try and normalize some of these challenges so we can overcome them.
04:29That's it.
04:31And normalizing it is the point, isn't it?
04:34And it's what you've been so good at, Jules, because I saw a post that you did the other day about having a body wobble.
04:40I mean, talking about it is, you know, it's half the battle, isn't it?
04:44Because it means that other people can also think, oh, I also have a body wobble.
04:48I mean, what is a body wobble for someone who's maybe not familiar with actually owning up to it?
04:53If you were having that experience, what does that look like and how can you normalize it for other people?
04:57Well, firstly, I think talking about it and being open and honest with yourself and with people around you actually is half the battle.
05:06And as I said previously, and this is how I've got to this point of recognizing that everybody wobbles,
05:11I fell into a career as a spray tanner.
05:14And during that time, I worked with every different type of body you can imagine.
05:20And seeing people get in the spray tan booth with underwear or no underwear, it was the norm.
05:27But what shocked me was that I've worked with Victoria's Secret models.
05:32I've worked with Hollywood actors and actresses.
05:35You name it, I've tanned it.
05:37And every single person that gets in the spray tan booth, whoever they are, used to apologize for something on their body.
05:47I'm sorry for my inserts, like my cellulite, my love handles, my eyebrows, my hair.
05:52I'm so sorry.
05:53And I just thought, God, you're supposed to be one of the most beautiful people in the world.
05:57This is what you are supposed to be it.
06:00And you are apologizing.
06:03And at that time, I was really struggling with my appearance.
06:06And I just realized that actually, we are all conditioned to hate how we look.
06:11We are all sold this ideal body, this perfect life that doesn't exist.
06:19And so having these wobbles is actually part of being human.
06:23It's part of navigating the society that we're in.
06:26A body wobble comes from, you might look in front of the mirror or look in a car window or a shop window.
06:33They are the devil at times.
06:35If you're not feeling your best and you walk past, you're like, oh my God, is that what I look like?
06:39Never look at the front facing camera.
06:40Oh, never, never.
06:42And a badly lit fitting room can be deeply upsetting.
06:45But everybody has those moments where they are picking themselves apart.
06:50And it's because, I mean, there's so much to unpack, but society places so much of our worth based on aesthetic.
07:00And going back to your stat about teenage boys and boys at school picking themselves apart because of their body.
07:07Of course they are.
07:09Of course they're doing that.
07:10And body wobbles come, you might think there's something wrong with your body in the way that it's your height, your build, your muscle, anything.
07:19Because it, again, falls into the trap of comparison.
07:22You're comparing yourself to other people.
07:24You think that you should have a body of somebody else rather than actually go, do you know what?
07:29What I've got is amazing.
07:31I'm so lucky to have this body.
07:33But that, unfortunately, is not communicated.
07:35We're just so conditioned to publicly shame ourselves in order to almost make ourselves feel twistedly better.
07:43Do you know what I mean?
07:45I hope that you're enjoying this conversation with Dr. Brendan and Jules.
07:48Conversations like this are so important for tackling stigma around male mental health and body image issues.
07:54If you want to support us so that we can keep making powerful episodes like this, you can like and subscribe to this channel.
08:00Thank you so much.
08:01Brendan, where did these beauty standards come from?
08:04I mean, why do we have this idea of, you know, this kind of jacked physique and this angular jaw?
08:11Because, you know, a few hundred years ago, men were wearing corsets and makeup.
08:15Of course they were.
08:16Yeah.
08:16Heels and all kinds of stuff.
08:18And they still do now.
08:19And that is totally fine.
08:21And we love that.
08:22I guess you touched upon something just before that is really important about this idea that the latest trend is the mid-physique or whatever you kind of just said then.
08:33Because that's an important thing to remember.
08:36Body image ideals and the way in which we societally accept or don't accept something is contextually and culturally bound.
08:47So, yeah, I think social media, again, has got a lot to answer for now with these current ideals.
08:54And I'm sure that the narrative and the standards will probably shift again in the next, I don't know, 10, 15, 20 years, whatever that is.
09:07I mean, we're already starting to see some of those shifts with certain aspects of men's appearances.
09:12You know, there's even things like people that don't have a lot of hair and wanting to get hair replacements.
09:23But then what I should say is you've also then got people that are embracing boldness and that becoming culturally, like a cultural currency of attractiveness with that.
09:34So, these things shift and change.
09:36I think social media has got a lot to answer for because we know, don't we, that when we click on something on social media, the algorithm is going to feed us that more.
09:45So, as soon as people are getting into that space of disliking aspects of their body or searching for something which maybe is or is not achievable for them, the algorithm is going to show them more of that.
09:56So, I think maybe our current standards of beauty and maybe being shaped quite a lot by social media, maybe more than we want to acknowledge because we all live our lives so much integrally on social media.
10:14I think there is also the topic of the way that men, in particular, are sold product and the models that are cast in campaigns.
10:26You go on any retailer and shop for men's underwear and every model has the same body.
10:33I'll tell you this for free, honey, my body doesn't look like that.
10:35And I don't think theirs does either.
10:37I've done a lot of men's swimwear campaigns as makeup artists.
10:39Those boys have drunk a bottle of red wine the night before, dehydrated themselves, and that's how their muscles show.
10:45And somebody's gone in and bronzed and contoured everything.
10:47That used to be me.
10:48I used to contour them.
10:49But it goes down to the fashion campaigns, the beauty campaigns.
10:52They're all casting the same kind of models.
10:55Having had a brand that was all about body inclusivity and body diversity globally,
11:02it's actually not that difficult to cast models who have a diverse body.
11:09But these brands are so scared of breaking the mould and focus so much on women's wear and inclusivity within the women's wear space,
11:20which is amazing.
11:22But I think completely overlook the men's wear category.
11:26And you could go in anything.
11:28Every male model looks the same.
11:30But there is this resistance to swimming differently.
11:37And I think that is a lot within society.
11:39And it used to be that when I travelled as an artist, I would go to New York, LA, Australia,
11:45and all the people would dress differently.
11:46Now, everybody dresses the same.
11:49And these models, this global look of one body, one shape, one ideal is everywhere.
11:55And I think there needs to be more pushback from the people who work for these companies,
12:01rather than be so focused on sales, actually be focused on what their brand can communicate
12:06and how it can change society for the better.
12:08I really agree with you.
12:10I think it's so interesting that you've touched on that, because one of the things I see,
12:13especially as almost a direct result of wellness culture as well,
12:16is the homogenisation of us as human beings, everyone wanting to look the same way,
12:22everyone wanting to have the same house, everyone wanting to kind of fit this mould.
12:27And actually, I think it's a bit bleak.
12:29I don't think that it is that.
12:31It's basic territory.
12:32Yeah, it's very basic.
12:33But I do think there's a real joy in being able to be yourself.
12:38And I did want to ask you whether, in your view as someone that's worked in the fashion
12:43and beauty industries, do you think we have a narrower view now then of what beauty is
12:48when we think about masculinity and men?
12:51Or, you know, are we actually better than we used to be?
12:56Or was it better before?
12:58I mean, in the 90s, did we have a better view of what masculinity meant?
13:02Um, I don't think it's changed that much, to be honest.
13:06I think the women's wear space has changed loads.
13:08It's been a really interesting sphere to watch in the way that it's ebbed and flowed
13:12and had this huge kickback in 2020, 22, 23.
13:18And then with the increase of a Zen pick, coming back in has changed and gone back.
13:25And we're seeing a rise of skinny talk and this big moment on social media again.
13:29Actually, when you look at how the male body is communicated, it's actually stayed quite stagnant.
13:36And I think that, God, if I was to launch a brand again, I'd be doing it so differently for menswear.
13:41That could be such a space that you can make noise.
13:43I think it's quite boring, to be honest.
13:46And I think that there is a much deeper conversation within the menswear space that could be about ability, achievements, humour, interest, like, that aren't aesthetic.
13:58But it's just so focused on, is that person sexy?
14:01Are they selling this product?
14:03Does it work?
14:04That's it.
14:04I think that's why the Gillette advert is so beloved with that song.
14:07Because it's actually quite catchy and quite a vibe and quite meaningful outside of what do you look like after you've shaved?
14:13It's more about how you feel, and I think that's why it had a viral moment, which was quite interesting to me.
14:19You mentioned Zempick, and Dr. Brendan, I wanted to ask you whether you feel that the kind of ripple effect of GLP-1s has given us quite a warped view of what a male body should look like now as well.
14:32Because we've certainly seen that, as you say, with skinny talk.
14:35We've seen it with a lot of, you know, what teenage girls are talking about online.
14:39But is this something that's affecting young boys as well?
14:41We know that certain groups like queer, gay and bi men are much more likely to have body image issues full stop, but also use these types of products to moderate or modulate the way that they look.
14:56I think the thing which is worth holding in mind from a clinical perspective as well is that, yes, things like Zempick are used to moderate body weight at the moment.
15:10But for younger people, we still see the use of restricted eating and, as you mentioned earlier, steroids and other things like that to moderate body image and weight more so.
15:24And I think that's probably because, especially something like steroids, there's, again, that kind of social script around them being slightly more accepted.
15:33And I think what we're seeing at the moment, especially with younger men, is, again, the narrative that maybe something like a Zempick is a little bit more of a woman's tool to use.
15:47So there's this kind of gendering almost of how people perceive thinness and how people perceive the ideal body.
15:55That's really interesting.
15:56And you mentioned, you know, certain demographics and certain groups having, you know, more issues with things like eating disorders.
16:04Why is that, do you think?
16:05Is that because across society we have this kind of lack of access to resources in certain groups or, you know, is it because certain kids are more likely to be bullied?
16:17I mean, there must be a lot of play here.
16:19There is an awful lot of play.
16:21I guess my area of research and clinical working is mostly with queer populations and groups.
16:26So one of the things that we know in the kind of LGBTQ plus space is that internalized homophobia, internalized biphobia, queer phobia, whatever that might be, plays a big part.
16:40That sense of the world tells me I'm not enough, I'm wrong, I need to look a certain kind of way.
16:48That's internalized.
16:50You mentioned social desirability and self-worth being tied up.
16:54We know that, again, for gay-buying queer men, there is a real sense of that.
16:59My self-worth and my social currency and my appeal, full stop, is based on the way I look and nothing else.
17:07And that's a very limited view that can really embody people fully, you know, that idea.
17:16There's lots of variables at play, but especially for the queer-buying gay men.
17:22And, yeah, I think that that sense of self-worth being equated to the way you look is a real challenge.
17:28It's so much for a young person to hold, isn't it?
17:30And then I suppose if you take that with you into adult life and then have to contend with all the issues that come with being an adult as well, it's an awful lot.
17:38And I can see why, Jules, you've written about, you know, feeling like you hit a wall in some cases because you had internalized a lot of this stuff.
17:47And actually it was coming out in negative behaviors or negative thoughts in a way that felt like you couldn't really control them.
17:53But I know that you have also come up with so many great tips for loving yourself and feeling better about yourself.
18:00And your book is a really great guide to that.
18:03And I wonder actually whether you've got an insight into how you can flip the script.
18:10You know, how have you gone from internalizing that negativity and feeling like, okay, well, the world is not giving me what I need.
18:17And therefore I'm taking that on board to feeling like, actually, I am pretty brilliant and I'm going to give the world more of my brilliance.
18:24I mean, that is a huge shift.
18:26So how does one achieve that?
18:27I mean, that is a massive shift.
18:30And turning the ship of body confidence does not just happen overnight.
18:35It has to be a little bit, a little bit.
18:36And each time you make little changes and what you say nice things to yourself one day will have a knock-on effect.
18:42But I think recognizing this space that you're in is actually one of the hardest lessons to learn and recognize, am I speaking to myself nicely?
18:54Am I being my own best friend?
18:56Am I showing up for myself?
18:58Have I got my own back?
19:00And if the answer to those questions are all no, then maybe there's work to be done.
19:06And you might not even realize that you're in this space of low vibing energy.
19:12And so saying nice things to yourself in front of the mirror, recognizing that, I just, I wouldn't say that to my best friend.
19:20I wouldn't say half the stuff I say to myself, to my best friend.
19:23So why am I saying it to myself?
19:25For me, every time I looked in front of the mirror and anyone who has body dysmorphia will be able to relate to this.
19:32Because I would just consistently focus on the things I hated.
19:36The mirror would be this place of, I'm going to really pick myself apart here and hone in on all the things that I want to change.
19:45But what if you honed in on all the things that you liked?
19:48Think how different your conversation would be.
19:50The bathroom and the mirror is where you start and finish your day.
19:53So the conversation that you have with yourself in front of the mirror is so important.
19:59It makes such a difference.
20:00Focus on the things that you like, say nice things to yourself and do things that bring you joy.
20:06Remember that life is not all about the number in the back of your clothes or how thick your hair is or how luscious and long it is.
20:14None of that is actually important.
20:16Even if you work in the beauty industry, which I do, it's not important.
20:19Your personality, your actions, how you make people feel, the impact that you have with yourself and everyone around you is way more important and interesting than what you look like.
20:34And the thing is, when you start to recognize these things, that the glow comes from within.
20:39It doesn't, it's not a surface.
20:41Sure, you can buy products that make you glow, but actually the real glow comes from within.
20:45Then everything starts to shift and life starts to open up and confidence starts to beam.
20:51I talk about exercise a lot online and actually my PT says to me, one of the hardest things to do in a workout is just get yourself to the gym.
21:01Oh yeah.
21:01Oh my God, it is so difficult getting there.
21:04But once you're there, actually going, I'm not here to drop pounds and shed.
21:10I'm actually here to just show my body some love because your body, believe it or not, shows up for you every single day.
21:16It wants you to have the best life ever.
21:18It's the greatest machine you'll ever own.
21:21So don't punish, nourish.
21:23Give yourself some love and remember that life is just too short to hate how you look, babe.
21:27Oh, I love that.
21:28Don't punish, nourish is really good and I'm going to take that one with me.
21:31I do think as well that there is this kind of focus maybe.
21:36I mean, going back to what you were saying, Brendan, about the kind of gendering of how we look at health and well-being and beauty.
21:43There's this idea that if you're a man, it's all about self-optimization.
21:47It's about shredding.
21:48It's about, you know, leveling up.
21:50It's not necessarily about loving and nurturing.
21:53And a lot of that is because of the way, as you say, products are marketed.
21:56You know, we haven't, as you very rightly pointed out, deviated in 20, 30 years from the way that we sell things to men.
22:04And we probably should.
22:06Why is it that we kind of focus on, you know, doing punishing behavior or kind of shredding or leveling up?
22:15And we don't focus in more on, you know, nourishment or loving or movement in that way when we talk about this sort of thing and we talk about men.
22:24I think it's because society expects men to just have to manage that.
22:30You know, you just have to.
22:31That's just your role.
22:33So you've got to stomach the bad and pull your socks up and get on with it.
22:38For me, it goes to a broader point about men and mental health generally.
22:44I don't think, you know, there's still a stigma about men acknowledging poorer mental health and embracing the need to reach out for support.
22:56We know that, for example, suicide is the biggest killer of young men.
23:01But for some reason, we're still not able to fully shift the gear when it comes to having conversations about mental health.
23:08So I think this is tied intimately to mental health more generally.
23:12This gendering, this kind of societal expectation of role really suppresses men.
23:20And this idea of compassion and self-compassion, which is what you were fantastically articulating there, is something which I think men feel like they can't embrace because they shouldn't.
23:30But actually, if they're not able to give that self-love to themselves, the way in which they relate and interact with other people is not going to be optimal.
23:40You know, RuPaul says it, doesn't he?
23:42If you can't love yourself, then how the hell are you going to love someone else?
23:45And that is genuinely true.
23:47I think that is genuinely true.
23:48So, yeah, nourish, don't punish.
23:51I like that.
23:52You heard it here first.
23:52I heard it here first.
23:54But, I mean, I went to Bali, and stay with me.
23:57I went to Bali earlier this year and I did a water ceremony.
24:03And I was in this, up in these mountains, and I went in and everybody working at the waterfalls was male.
24:13And I had this ceremony.
24:14At one point, I had to go up to this rock.
24:16And this guy, this 50-year-old man was like, we all carry really heavy stuff in our brain, and it gets a lot.
24:23So, what I want you to do is go over there, put your head on the rock, under the waterfall, and just scream it out.
24:28And I was like, I'm going to be here for a while.
24:32And I was screamed out.
24:34And the difference, I left something in that waterfall.
24:37But as I was leaving, I phoned my husband and I said, it's amazing that I'm on the other side of the world.
24:43And over here, mental health is just something that is talked about.
24:49And there were straight men in that waterfall screaming, getting it out.
24:54But in our culture here, it's real rug sweep.
24:58Just put it under the rug, worry about it.
25:00Like you said, you've just got to carry on.
25:02You've just got to keep cracking on.
25:04No, you don't.
25:05And one of the best tips I was ever given about mental health is if you had a drip in your kitchen ceiling, what would you do?
25:15You'd be on that phone, panic, phoning the plumber, getting it sorted.
25:18But mental health is like having a drip in the ceiling in your brain, but we don't get it sorted.
25:25We just ignore it.
25:26And it's okay to not be okay, but always get that drip sorted and always talk about your mental health and talk about your feelings.
25:32Yeah, you don't want that drip to become a puddle or a lake.
25:35No.
25:36Float the whole house.
25:36Or a river.
25:37Yes, yeah.
25:38It's tricky as well because it's all very well to say we need to talk more, we need to talk more, we need to flip the script on how men feel they can show up and feel they can talk about things.
25:47But how do we get men to unlearn what they've been taught for such a long time?
25:52Do you have any advice on that, Brendan?
25:55I mean, is there a way through in terms of how we can encourage men to actually change the way that they think about mental health and talk about mental health and say this stuff?
26:04Again, I think it goes down to the different subsections of men and masculinity because what one section of the male population needs is going to be different to what another subsection needs.
26:20Yeah, there's no rule for everyone.
26:20I also think about the clients that I see.
26:23I think about the men in my life.
26:25I think about my colleagues and things like that.
26:27So I kind of draw on lots of different areas when I think about this question.
26:32I think you have to meet people where they're at.
26:35It's all well and good.
26:36Someone sitting here and saying, well, we need to be doing this, that and the other that are really aspirational ideas.
26:43But actually, if they're so aspirational that we're not going to get there, what's the point?
26:47So I think things or initiatives like Andy's Men's Clubs and things like this have been really great because they've managed to normalise talking.
26:56So I think for things like body image and self-esteem and, you know, the way you view yourself, I think we need to be tapping into what men are already doing and where they're already going.
27:10So having those conversations where men stereotypically might hang out is probably where we need to start.
27:17I think we need to demystify therapy because I still think there's this idea that therapy is something that you can only access if you're really unwell or if, you know, there's a massive problem to solve.
27:33Whereas actually therapy for a lot of people can be a space to unpack, reflect, understand themselves so that that drip doesn't become a puddle.
27:43Because as you said, everyone will have a body wobble, but that body wobble isn't necessarily a mental health challenge or mental health problem.
27:51It's a wobble, but we want to make sure it doesn't turn into a puddle for us to mix our metaphors.
27:58So, yeah, I think we need to demystify therapy as well.
28:01And I think we also need to make accessing that mental health support or whatever that support needs to look like, because it could be social support.
28:10We need to make that easier.
28:12So, yeah, again, different ways in to mental health support and therapy and ways that are maybe not so traditional.
28:22So not necessarily sitting in a room talking with someone.
28:25We know that a lot of men in particular, again, this is a broad brushstroke comment, a lot of men in particular would much rather talk about their feelings, maybe outside, you know, walk and talk therapy type ideas or talk about it even whilst they're engaging in another activity.
28:41So a lot of people have conversations about their health and wellness and their mental health at the gym or on sports fields or things like that.
28:48So we need to be able to tap into those resources as well when we can.
28:53And gyms are obviously, you know, they're really great places.
28:56They're places that should be about moving the body, enjoying that, you know, camaraderie, hanging out with your friends.
29:03We don't want them to be toxic spaces because they are there to help, aren't they?
29:06Moving your body is good for you.
29:08Happy hormones are good for you.
29:10So I don't like the idea of the gym as becoming this toxic place that can put people off and intimidate people.
29:16I like the idea of it as being somewhere welcoming.
29:18Especially I saw during COVID, didn't we?
29:20The fact that actually fitness was a really important thing for some people.
29:25So we can sometimes conflate the fact that gym is a negative thing.
29:31I don't know, just something about if actually you like going to the gym and fitness and, you know, sculpting your body is something that you like doing.
29:38And that's also okay.
29:40It's a spectrum, isn't it?
29:41Yeah.
29:41I guess we, yeah, it's very easy for us to say, oh, don't lose your head over the perfect body.
29:47But also, if bodybuilding is your thing and you're doing it sustainably and healthily, to have at it, it's, you know, it's probably making you feel really good.
29:55And it's helping your mental health, right?
29:57Yeah.
29:57If it's bringing you joy, keep doing it.
29:59Exactly.
30:00Exactly.
30:01Same could be said about fitness brands.
30:03Yeah.
30:03And how they're communicating.
30:04It's exactly the same.
30:05The conversation around exercise is always this aesthetic, aesthetic, aesthetic.
30:11Yeah.
30:11And it's actually not about that.
30:13And that narrative needs to change.
30:15And also unlearning, back to your original question, unlearning body dysmorphia tendencies and low self-esteem tendencies is not an overnight job.
30:25And I used to think that having confidence and liking who I was, was the destination.
30:30And actually, it's the journey.
30:33And it's this constant journey that you have to do with yourself and keep reminding yourself.
30:38There are days, God, I mean, I've got a massive history of not liking what I look like.
30:42There are days that I have lows.
30:44There are days that I have highs.
30:45But each day is different.
30:46And you have to remind yourself each day, okay, this is where we are today.
30:50It's okay.
30:51That's all right.
30:51Maybe I do need therapy.
30:53Maybe I need to talk to someone.
30:54I love walk and talk, by the way.
30:55I'm having that.
30:56But it is not the destination.
31:00The wand of body confidence doesn't exist.
31:03It's the journey.
31:04Yeah, you're so right.
31:05And I do think that part of the reason we wanted to set up this podcast is because a lot of people come to us looking for one quick fix, one quick thing, one hack.
31:16And actually, we're here to tell you that although there are some great tools that you can use to make yourself feel better spiritually, mentally, physically,
31:24there is no one hack, there is no one trick.
31:27And it's actually about these tiny incremental changes that will help you to feel enough every day, which I think both your books really, really help with.
31:37And if you can dip into either of those books and pull out some of those tools, they can be really, really helpful for making small changes.
31:44I also wonder whether you both have favorites.
31:47Are there any kind of like favorite rituals or favorite exercises that you would both pick out?
31:52If you were going to meet someone on their journey who was maybe having a body wobble, what advice would you give them?
31:58Is there one exercise that you think could be quite useful in that moment?
32:02One of the hardest exercises I do when I'm hosting workshops is writing a love letter to your body.
32:10It can be quite full on when you do it for the first time.
32:16But set the scene, sage it if you need to, put your favorite playlist on, get a glass of wine, whatever you want to do to make it extra special and write it down and read it out loud and hear everything you appreciate about your body.
32:29When I do it, I apologize for my body.
32:32I say nice things.
32:33I say mean things.
32:33It's all in there, but it gets it all out into the open.
32:37And then you can do what you want with it.
32:38Put it in the bin, burn it, do whatever.
32:41But that for me is one of my favorite exercises.
32:44And also say a positive affirmation when you put your underwear on.
32:48Start your day right and say something really nice to yourself at the moment the underwear goes on.
32:52And from there, the only way is up.
32:53Yeah, I love that.
32:54I mean, more of us should say, you know, I am hot stuff when putting on our pants in the morning.
32:58You're hot, girl.
32:59I think it would help a lot of people.
33:02What about you, Brendan?
33:02Do you have one kind of routine that you would say if someone is having that kind of crisis of confidence with their self-esteem that you would recommend using?
33:12You know, those self-affirmations that you've touched upon as well are really, really simple, easy things for people to start doing.
33:19Because, yeah, these kind of strategies, these tips and tricks don't have to be huge worksheets today.
33:26They can be just little things that you do in the morning that you incorporate into your routine.
33:31Because when you incorporate it into your routine, it doesn't feel laborious and it feels much easier to integrate, doesn't it?
33:38I think an exercise that I encourage people to do in therapy or even just, you know, outside of therapy that can be really helpful is for something like body image or the way that you feel about yourself, your self-esteem.
33:52I mean, just, you know, scribble on a bit of paper who's around you.
33:57So, you know, who's in your life, you know, friends, family, partners, pets, work, social media figures, and start to identify whether those people make you feel good or not so good or whether they just don't really have any impact on the way I feel about myself.
34:14And sometimes when people start to scribble this down, they go, oh, hang on a minute, I didn't realize that this one particular person or group or thing in my life doesn't make me feel that great.
34:25Or there's, on the flip side of that, there are certain people or things in my life or pets or whatever that might be that make me feel amazing.
34:31So then we might start to say, well, as a little tiny shift, why don't you start to spend more time with these people and things that you know do something good for your self-esteem?
34:41Again, it's almost like a little bit of a nudge, but something like that is almost like an easier therapy technique that anyone can really do.
34:51You don't need to be in a structured psychological therapy to be able to do something like that.
34:56It's kind of just being a bit more self-aware, isn't it, about what you're feeding yourself with.
35:00You talked about nourishment.
35:01And I think often if I'm starting to feel bad about myself, I will take a break from social media because I feel that often the reason I'm not feeling good is because I'm comparing myself to other people.
35:14And if I stop and think about it, as you've just recommended, it's that that's making me feel bad.
35:19So I try to distance myself a little bit from that and spend more time with people that make me feel good, which is great advice.
35:25I mean, comparison is the thief of joy, honey.
35:27Absolutely.
35:28You've got to watch it.
35:29I want to know if it really was Ellen and Roosevelt that said that or whether it's just become a Pinterest quote that we attribute to her.
35:35But it is a great quote and I love it.
35:37It's one of my favourites.
35:39Those are both incredible sets of tips.
35:41And I always end the podcast by asking my guests for their tip on their one wellness non-negotiable.
35:47And I know this is quite hard to choose, but for you, is there something that is your one go-to that makes you feel good every day?
35:56Jules, we'll start with you.
35:58Nature and nature bathing.
36:00Whether it's having my cup of coffee outside for five minutes in the morning or taking a full tech rest and putting my phone in a drawer on a Sunday and just spending the whole day outside.
36:13If I'm in that place that you were just speaking about on social media where it can feel very prangy.
36:19That's the only way I can describe it.
36:22Just letting Mother Earth heal and doing what she is supposed to do and remembering that all of this, the tech, the life that we're in is something that humans have created.
36:32And actually, if you just sit and be in a forest or by the sea, you will feel better.
36:38A hundred percent.
36:39That is my non-negotiable.
36:40I couldn't agree with you more.
36:41And I also am currently working on a piece about how forest bathing can really help reset that frequency for you and help you feel more grounded.
36:52And I just think it's fascinating, the science.
36:54But it's also just a no-brainer, isn't it?
36:56It makes you feel good to go for a walk.
36:58So I love that.
36:59What about you, Brendan?
37:00What would your one wellness non-negotiable be?
37:02I think my one wellness non-negotiable would be time with my dogs.
37:08Love it.
37:09Because my partner might not like me saying that too much.
37:12But, you know, I think my dogs, it's that sense of just unconditional love and joy.
37:18And just, if you're having a bad day, just embrace your animals.
37:24For me, that's something which is non-negotiable.
37:26Every day I've got to do that.
37:28Love that.
37:28Animals, nature, the most wholesome things in the world.
37:31Simple.
37:32And great advice.
37:33Thank you both so much for sharing your tips with me and for joining me on Well Enough.
37:37Thank you for having us.
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