- 2 days ago
Otangelo Grasso a Swiss writer & Uncle Mohamed a Comparative Religion enthusiast discuss the Crucifixion.
A very much civilised discussion and interfaith dialogue between the 2
A very much civilised discussion and interfaith dialogue between the 2
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LearningTranscript
00:00:00So, how are you, sir?
00:00:06Yes, hello, Mohamed.
00:00:09It's nice to meet you here on my channel.
00:00:12I'm fine, thanks. And you?
00:00:15Yes, I'm well, thank you very much.
00:00:17And first and foremost, I would like to thank you for accepting the invitation so quickly and making the time.
00:00:25It's well appreciated.
00:00:27Sure, sure. So, you are in the UK?
00:00:32In fact, I'm in Brussels for the last 25 years.
00:00:36Oh, okay, Belgium, okay.
00:00:39Yes, I'm both Moroccan and British.
00:00:42All right, all right.
00:00:44And I want to ask you a couple of questions about yourself.
00:00:49Sure.
00:00:50Are you Swiss or Italian or both?
00:00:54I am both.
00:00:56Right, okay.
00:00:57Were you born in Switzerland or in Italy?
00:00:59I was born in Switzerland, yes.
00:01:01Ah, in Switzerland, okay.
00:01:03And I just had a look a little bit.
00:01:05You studied something like science and physics or something like that in Switzerland?
00:01:10I am a professional machine designer, okay?
00:01:15Okay.
00:01:16And I don't have any degree in physics or any other kind of degree related to the topics which are usually discussed, which is chemistry, physics, astronomy, biology, all these kinds of things.
00:01:34I am actually an autodidact.
00:01:37I am self-taught.
00:01:38So, I study these things on the internet and then I write articles about them.
00:01:43On yourself.
00:01:44Okay, I see.
00:01:45Well done good.
00:01:46Well done good.
00:01:47Yes.
00:01:48And you're also interested in comparative religion.
00:01:53You wrote, you're a writer.
00:01:54You wrote a few books or did you write a few?
00:01:58Yes, but not about comparative religions.
00:02:02I wrote, yeah, if you check my name, I don't know if you have checked on Amazon, then you will see I have 14 titles published in different languages.
00:02:15And some are about Jesus Christ, historicity of Jesus Christ, Shroud of Turin.
00:02:24Yes.
00:02:25And the others are other kinds of topics like astronomy, physics, chemistry, biochemistry, evolution, and biology.
00:02:35And also a book about philosophy, world views.
00:02:40Yeah.
00:02:41Many different topics, right?
00:02:43I take my hat off to you.
00:02:46Different topics.
00:02:47Okay.
00:02:48Yeah.
00:02:49Yes.
00:02:50And you are a devout Christian, I would say, yes?
00:02:55Yes, I'm an evangelical Protestant Christian.
00:02:58Evangelical Protestant.
00:02:59Okay.
00:03:00Right.
00:03:01Yeah.
00:03:02Good to hear.
00:03:03I mean, I got in touch with you because I saw you on a couple of videos where I felt that you were asking and you wanted to know a little bit more about what others think about the crucifixion.
00:03:18And I felt that maybe you didn't get the right answer, maybe wrong.
00:03:22And this is the reason why I got in touch because I have a hobby for the last six, seven years to comparative religion.
00:03:30I've read the Bible cover to cover, the King James Version in English, as I happen to be British also, and I studied in London.
00:03:37So I feel, I know you told me yesterday on WhatsApp, some sort of good luck, but I feel that after reading the Bible, that it is compatible, the Bible is actually compatible with the Islamic view, and that according to the Bible, Jesus was not crucified.
00:03:52Of course, it's a very big statement and a very big opinion, especially to you as a Christian, to your audience and to our Christian brothers and sisters.
00:04:11But my feeling is compatible. And this is why I wish to share that. And my interest in comparative religion is only, as I say, always between inverted commas, is to share the truth about God with others.
00:04:28But, of course, with respect to people's religion or whether they're atheists or whatever religion they are. So that's why, if you wish, I guess you're from Zurich, so you speak German or you studied in German?
00:04:43Yes, I speak Swiss German.
00:04:45Ah, okay, yeah, yeah. So I could say again, we are in medius reus.
00:04:50Okay.
00:04:55So do you wish that we can go just slowly?
00:05:00Slowly and even if, for instance, we don't finish today, or if you wish to stop in half an hour, whatever we could, and then continue another time? Or how do you wish to proceed?
00:05:12Well, I would maybe prefer, if you could come straight to the point, without too much extending your key argument, okay? And just saying straight away why you think that Christ was not crucified.
00:05:33Okay, excellent.
00:05:34Okay, excellent. If you don't mind, I mean, I said and I promised to you that I will give you only from the Bible, but if you don't mind just to show to you and to your audience also, to show you how compatible what is in the Bible that is compatible with the Quran, I can give you one single verse from the Quran, and then everything else will be exclusively from the Bible, only from the Bible.
00:06:00So the first verse from the Quran, you probably heard this, or maybe even a few times, is from Surah An-Nisa, which is like the book of women, or the chapter of women, if you will, which is the fourth surah in the Quran, or the fourth book.
00:06:19And it's verse 157, very quickly in Arabic.
00:06:24It's all, give it to you.
00:06:48Yes, I don't understand it.
00:06:52I will untranslate as best as I can. So this is the only verse that I will give. There are actually two verses, but the second verse is only one line, and I've already read it.
00:07:00Now, the reason why I want this, just so you can see throughout the entire verses that I will give you from the Bible, that it's exactly the same compatible.
00:07:08So, so, waqawlihim, and they're saying, it's rather they're advancing, rather than saying they're advancing, because Allah refutes this statement.
00:07:22So, waqawlihim, and they, who they? The Jews.
00:07:25And they're saying that we have unalived, he gives four descriptions of Jesus, al-Masihah, the Messiah, the Christ.
00:07:38Isa is Jesus, the son of Mary, the prophet, or the messenger, rather, the messenger of God, messenger of Allah, that we have unalived him.
00:07:48But they did not unalived him, nor did they crucify him. And something extremely important here, even for the, I would say, probably the vast majority of Muslims will not, will, may not know this, or will not know this, is the term used in Arabic, the verb is salaba.
00:08:08Salaba is only translated to crucify. It cannot be translated to another term other than crucify.
00:08:15Anyway, we say, but salaba, which is only crucified in all Quran translations as crucify, does not actually mean, this is what I said, the vast majority of Muslims do not know this, does not really mean crucify.
00:08:31And I'll explain why. Because, and I'll explain the importance why I'm explaining this too.
00:08:37Because in English, or in Latin or European languages, when you say to crucify, that means to earn a life.
00:08:45It cannot be, the crucifixion cannot exist without an alive in. Whereas in Arabic, it's not the same meaning, definitely not.
00:08:54You can put someone on a pole, or on a tree, or something, without an alive in them.
00:09:02You can just say, well, okay, we let you off and come down, or whatever.
00:09:05So, it's not the same meaning. And this is why, when Allah, when God uses two terms, you think it's repetition.
00:09:15He said, they analyzed him not, they crucified him not. In English, it would be a repetition.
00:09:21You do not need to say both.
00:09:22So, this is a proof. The reason why I'm saying this is very specific, and very important, to Christians and Muslims and everybody,
00:09:30is the reason why I'm giving this explanation of the term Salabah.
00:09:33That means, according to the Quran, according to the word of God, the word of Allah, Jesus was not even,
00:09:41this is from a Muslim perspective, with my respect to you.
00:09:44So, he was not even put on a tree, or a pole, or a cross.
00:09:51So, this is the reason why people would think there's a repetition.
00:09:56There's no repetition.
00:09:58If he was not Salabah, meaning crucified between English, that means he was not on a tree.
00:10:04And then, the verse continues...
00:10:05Yeah, so it is very explicit, when I may say, right?
00:10:10So, the verse in the Quran doesn't leave any doubt what this means.
00:10:17It means that, indeed, according to the Quran, Jesus did not die, and he was not crucified.
00:10:27So, it is very clear.
00:10:29You explained that well.
00:10:32So, he was not even put on a tree, and he was not put on a cross, or on a pole.
00:10:38This is exactly as good that you clarified that.
00:10:40So, he doesn't leave any doubt that Jesus didn't die, right?
00:10:45Die, that's clear-cut from the day, and alive him not.
00:10:49Because, as I said, people made this repetition.
00:10:51He didn't die.
00:10:52But the second term...
00:10:53He remained alive.
00:10:55The second term, Salabah, which is supposed to be crucified, but it's not the same term.
00:11:00The Salabah in Arabic does not exist in European languages.
00:11:04Although, we have no choice.
00:11:06In English, we say, for lack of a better word.
00:11:09So, we have no choice but to translate it as crucifixion, but it's not.
00:11:12So, this is why.
00:11:13And your comment and your remark is very good.
00:11:17And this is all relevant to the Bible, and this is why I've used this verse.
00:11:23And Allah states, and those who are in doubt therein, are following, in doubt therein, meaning about the crucifixion, are following nothing but guesswork or confusion, and similar terms.
00:11:40Guesswork, confusion, therein.
00:11:42As, for surety, they analyzed him not, but God lifted him to himself.
00:11:55So, now you have the Muslim perspective.
00:12:00Now, we'll come to the Bible, if you wish.
00:12:03That's okay?
00:12:03We can proceed?
00:12:04Yeah.
00:12:04Yeah, just to clarify, when it says that you said the last term that he brought him to God or something, what was the last term you said?
00:12:18Yes, the Muslims, same as the Christians, we believe that Jesus was raised.
00:12:24Was raised.
00:12:25So, what this means by raised, because we believe that he didn't only resurrect, but he was lifted in the end to heaven, right?
00:12:35So, they went to Samaria, and there, Jesus, he disappeared in front of the disciples, and he was lifted by angels to heaven, right?
00:12:48We believe exactly the same thing.
00:12:50So, we believe exactly the same thing.
00:12:52And the only difference between a Christian and a Muslim is, in Islam, there is no crucifixion and no resurrection.
00:12:58But the two angels lifted him, and it's the same two angels who will bring him back before the end of the world.
00:13:05But not immediately after the fact of the mail.
00:13:07It could be 100, 200 years.
00:13:08So, this is very important for clarification, and I appreciate your explanation.
00:13:14Yes.
00:13:16Okay.
00:13:17Is that fine now?
00:13:20Yes, it is very clear.
00:13:21And you can move to the Bible.
00:13:24Yes.
00:13:24So, for the Bible, if you go to Matthew 27, 32 to 35, all other verses, I will tell you, I will not read them or rehearse them or whatever, because I'm working from memory.
00:13:39I never use any notes.
00:13:41So, as to learn, I will tell you, and you can check it, maybe, or I can even display it on the screen.
00:13:50If you go to Matthew 27, 32 to 35.
00:13:55In Matthew 27, 32, and as they came out, they found a man of Cyrene, Simon by name.
00:14:07We'll explain it.
00:14:09As they came out.
00:14:10When you say they, who are they?
00:14:13They means the Roman soldiers together with Jesus carrying the cross.
00:14:17So, this is as they came out.
00:14:21Why they came out?
00:14:23Not from a Turkish bath.
00:14:26I just, no, as they came out, meaning they came out, out of Jerusalem.
00:14:31So, the soldiers are coming out, out of Jerusalem, with Jesus carrying the cross.
00:14:35They met a man of Cyrene, Simon by name.
00:14:39This is from the King James Bible.
00:14:41As you are a Protestant, you probably use the King James or something similar.
00:14:45Is that correct?
00:14:47Yes, and I can read it here.
00:14:49And Simon by name, him, they compelled to bear his cross.
00:14:54Now, the only reference to Jesus in this verse is his cross.
00:15:00It's the cross of Jesus.
00:15:02But the soldiers, as you can clearly read, they forced Simon of Cyrene.
00:15:07He was a Jew from Libya.
00:15:08They forced him to bear the cross of Jesus.
00:15:14Now, the next verse, 33.
00:15:17And when they came to a place called Golgotha, that is to say, the writers even explain what Golgotha, that is to say, the place of the school.
00:15:28And Ghotha in Hebrew, or Ghotha, is Ghotha in Arabic.
00:15:32It's the same word, which means the school.
00:15:35So, that is 2733.
00:15:38As they came out, as they arrived to a place called Golgotha, that is to say, the place of the school.
00:15:45That's 33.
00:15:46If you move to...
00:15:48Do you want to read it?
00:15:49No, no, but I know where you want to go with this, because I had already exactly this conversation prior with the Muslims.
00:16:03So, I know exactly.
00:16:05Okay, but I'll give you the other two verses.
00:16:07Yeah, so I know the line of...
00:16:08I'll give you the other two verses quickly, because you're already familiar.
00:16:12If you go to the next verse, and they gave him vinegar to drink.
00:16:18Vinegar mixed with gold.
00:16:21And Golgotha, as you most probably know, is a bitter plant.
00:16:27And this bitter plant is already bitter.
00:16:29And when he tasted thereof, he would not drink.
00:16:34So, when he tasted there, he would not drink.
00:16:36And the next verse, in 35, it tells you, they crucified him.
00:16:41Oh, I checked so many different Bibles, there is no Jesus.
00:16:46Peace be upon him.
00:16:48It's only Simon.
00:16:49If you read these verses clearly, it's the same, exactly the same in Mark 15, 21 to 24.
00:16:56And in Luke 23, 36.
00:17:00Although in Luke 23, 36 is shorter, but in Mark 15, 21 to 24, it's exactly the same.
00:17:06There's only two different things that change.
00:17:08One, when they tell you that Simon of Cyrene is the father of Alexander and Rufus in John,
00:17:13not mentioned in Matthew.
00:17:16And the second thing, they tell you they gave him wine mixed with mer instead of vinegar with gold.
00:17:22But it's the exact same text.
00:17:25And when you read the text, there is, sincerely, you can try and bend it the way you like.
00:17:31There is no Jesus.
00:17:32The only thing that refers to Jesus in the very beginning, the first sentence, said his cross.
00:17:37But the soldiers, for one reason or another, we may have theories or whatever, that's not important.
00:17:44For one reason or another, they gave, they compelled Simon to bear the cross,
00:17:50and it is him who is crucified according to the text.
00:17:52There is no other reading, no other reading of the text, no other option.
00:17:57Jesus is simply not mentioned.
00:18:00And because you are German-speaking, this morning, I checked in SchadGPT what are the four main Bibles used in German.
00:18:09And he gave me the Luther Bible, the Einheitsübersetzung, and the Elberfelder, and Schlachter Bible.
00:18:18And I put all of them on the screen for Matthew 27, 35, and there isn't a single one of them which mentions Jesus.
00:18:28Peace be upon him.
00:18:29This is only one of the mini-verses.
00:18:33Okay, so that would be your main argument, basically.
00:18:37Is that correct?
00:18:38No, I probably have about 30 or 40 verses from the Bible, at least 30, 40 verses.
00:18:44That's why I said we probably need a minimum 40 minutes.
00:18:47I could go for an hour and a half about the crucifixion.
00:18:50This is only one small example.
00:18:53I can give you, if you wish.
00:18:55If you go to...
00:18:55Yeah, no, I asked you if this is the main line of evidence that you think you have, right?
00:19:03Oh, no, no, I have a lot more.
00:19:05I have a lot more.
00:19:06No, the question is not if you have a lot more.
00:19:08I want to know if this is, in your view, the most compelling argument.
00:19:15Let us say, it's difficult for me to answer such a question.
00:19:20Because if God in the Bible, in the Old Testament and the New Testament says he saved Jesus from death,
00:19:26clearly and literally, why should I consider this as the main and not the other ones as the main?
00:19:31So that's why I sincerely have difficulty saying something is main and the other one is not main.
00:19:37Because for me, they're all compelling evidences.
00:19:39And I said I have at least 30, 40 verses from the Bible which are aligned with this.
00:19:44So let me ask you, do you know the earliest creed which was propagated by the apostles?
00:19:55I'm not sure I understand your question, Watangelo.
00:19:59Do you know what the creed is?
00:20:01The creed is like a belief or something like that?
00:20:04Yes.
00:20:12Do you know what it says?
00:20:15Look, I can read it for you.
00:20:18Yes, please.
00:20:19So I will read 1 Corinthians 15, 3 to 8.
00:20:24For I delivered, this is the apostle Paul, for I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received,
00:20:33how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures and that he was buried and that he was buried and that he rose again the third day according to scriptures and that he was seen of Cephas and then the 12th.
00:20:53After that, he was seen of James, then of all the apostles and last of all, he was seen of me also as one born out of due time.
00:21:12So many scholars identify 3 B to 5 as an early confessional formula Paul received and delivered, likely circulating within the first years after the crucifixion.
00:21:29Okay, so this is basically a concentrated form of the main message of the New Testament.
00:21:42So the thing is that if Jesus was not crucified and did not resurrect, then the entire New Testament loses its reason to be and its core message.
00:22:03So this is a very, very central point.
00:22:07And another very central point is this.
00:22:09If what the Bible says and what I just read to you is true, then the Quran and the Muslim religion is false.
00:22:22And I would say it is false in its entirety.
00:22:26But if the verse is false, again, then the entire New Testament and the Christian message crumbles.
00:22:36It makes no sense anymore.
00:22:38Okay, so this is why I focus on this in my conversation with Muslims, because it is a very, very core issue.
00:22:47Because according to the New Testament, we are saved and receive forgiveness for sins and eternal life based on what Christ did for us.
00:23:01He paid for our sins.
00:23:03He paid on the behalf of all of us because I cannot pay for my sins because otherwise, if I had to pay, I would end up in hell.
00:23:14So in order not to end up in hell, Jesus, he suffered basically hell by being crucified.
00:23:23He was punished upon our behalf.
00:23:27And this is very, very clearly also stated in the prophetic verses about the Messiah in the Old Testament, like Isaiah 53, the suffering servant, that he was punished for us upon our behalf.
00:23:44So the very big issue here, and this is why I think it is a very interesting topic that you brought up, that you wanted to discuss with me, is, well, is that really true or not?
00:24:02The thing is that, as if you've seen that yesterday, I did send you a scientific article and my book on the burial cloth of Jesus, which is the Shroud of Turin, which is in Turin, in Italy, which Muslims reject and think that this is a forgery.
00:24:24I am studying this for several years, okay, and the big issue here is that in my understanding, the Shroud is the empirical link, which corroborates the Gospels.
00:24:37And the Gospels, they corroborate also the Shroud in the sense that all the marks like the blood, the perforations, the scourge marks and feet and hand, which have been perforated, which show crucifixion marks and the side, which was perforated and so forth.
00:25:07This also, this all matches 100% with the reports in the New Testament, and also his beard was ripped off.
00:25:19We see that not, it's not mentioned in the New Testament, but we see it on the Shroud, how a part of his beard was ripped off.
00:25:28And this is an Old Testament prophecy as well, that the Messiah, his beard would be ripped off.
00:25:34So, the big question here is, is the Shroud indeed the burial cloth of Jesus, or is it not?
00:25:42And I did send you that scientific paper, which I elaborated, which has 25 points, which if anyone wants to repeat and reproduce the Shroud, it will need to obey and keep in these constraints.
00:26:06And the thing is that in 40, 50 years, close to 200 scientific papers that have been published by over a hundred different scientific faculties,
00:26:19and nobody has been able to show that this is a human-made artifact, that the image on the Shroud was made by a forger in the Middle Ages.
00:26:33Why?
00:26:34Why?
00:26:35Because the Shroud doesn't have paint, it doesn't have pigments, it doesn't have chemical products which explain the formation of the image.
00:26:48The image is a photo negative with distance information encoded.
00:26:55And this is something which even today with the technology which we have at this position, it cannot be reproduced.
00:27:05Okay?
00:27:06It cannot be reproduced.
00:27:07Why?
00:27:08Because the image is made by a dehydration, oxidation, and conjugation of the cellulose itself.
00:27:20So, it is the bonds of the glucose molecules which go from one bond to two bonds which then bears the different color of that image.
00:27:35And the more bonds that are concentrated, the darker it appears.
00:27:40So, it is not by the strength of the radiation or the mechanism that the color is darker or lighter, but it is by the number of glucose molecules which are transformed and then the bonds are conjugated to two bonds.
00:27:58This is something which has been tested, what it could be that provokes this kind of molecular change.
00:28:08And Paolo di Lazzaro, which is an Italian physicist, he has in five years of tests shown that some kind of ultraviolet deep radiation can color the linen cloth in a fraction of a second with a very high power ray can color and bring this phenomenon.
00:28:33But we don't have the technology to make that on the size of the cloth.
00:28:39It would, according to his calculations, it would require 34,000 billion watts of energy in a very, very short flash in a fraction of a second.
00:28:51So, the technology doesn't know how this can be done.
00:28:55So, when I studied this and learned this, then this told me that, well, it seems to me that the radiocarbon dating from 1988 isn't compelling as well because there is a long history of the shroud prior to 1350 when it first appeared in Liray in France.
00:29:18So, we have a very long history with records in Constantinople and so forth.
00:29:27That is all recorded in my book.
00:29:30So, the claim that the shroud appeared in the Middle Ages in France and that it wasn't recorded anywhere before, that is false.
00:29:39So, this is basically, I did give you now some kind of core reasons why I believe that there are many more, but there are about 60 lines of evidence, which is a science paper that I also wrote on this, which shows us that this is indeed, it seems to be with very high certainty, in fact, the burial cloth of Jesus.
00:30:04And there is a man buried there, which is in the position of rigor mortis.
00:30:11So, this basically corroborates the Gospels, you know, and once this is shown, then, of course, the Quran, which was written in the 7th century, 600 years after the events, no eyewitness whatsoever.
00:30:28I don't know what evidence that there is for the claim that it should be true, you know.
00:30:35So, that's what I see, you know.
00:30:37No, I understand.
00:30:38No, I understand.
00:30:39We have moved from the Bible and from the words of Jesus to the words of someone else.
00:30:49You see, I have been speaking to Christians for some six years now about comparative religion, about such matters, and one thing that I notice immediately, that it seems to me at least, and I say this with respect to Otangelo, is whenever I mention the words of Jesus, peace be upon him, which is in the Gospels, for instance, in the four Gospels,
00:31:15because Jesus, naturally, as we all know, as you know, he only preached during the Gospels.
00:31:22From Acts to Revelation, Jesus is already gone.
00:31:26So, whenever to any Christian, and I think you have done the same, Otangelo, with respect, I've given you the words of Jesus and you've gone to the words of someone else.
00:31:36So, at some stage, it seems to me that the Christians do not listen and do not follow the words of Jesus.
00:31:43I said to you, I have, at the last count, 30 to 40 Bible verses, and I tell you, the word of Jesus, who said he's not going to be crucified, and he was not crucified, and in the, both in the New Testament and in the Old Testament that God saved him.
00:32:02But you went to something else, so, if I may give you some instances of the things that I wish to speak about, about the crucifixion.
00:32:10If you go to Matthew 1240, for instance, 1239, the Jews came to Jesus, please be upon him, and I said to him, give us a sign.
00:32:20So, Jesus replied and said, you're probably familiar with Matthew 1240.
00:32:27He replied, he said, this adulterous and evil generation is asking for a sign. They shall receive no sign but the sign of Jonah.
00:32:36For as Jonah was in the belly of the whale three days and three nights, so shall the Son of Man, talking about himself, be in the heart of the earth three days and three nights.
00:32:46So, was Jonah dead or alive after three days?
00:32:49So, he said, the only sign I will give them, I will not give any other sign.
00:32:55And naturally, three days and three nights is a reference to the crucifixion.
00:33:00So, Jonah was alive, and Jesus is telling you, I'll be in the heart of the earth three days and three nights means he's alive.
00:33:06If you go to Luke, I'll give you the words of Jesus, peace be upon you.
00:33:10If you go to Luke 1333, the disciples came to Jesus and said to him,
00:33:15King Herod wants to kill you, wants to and alive you.
00:33:21So, he replied, the great prophet he is, peace be upon him, he said, I will walk today, tomorrow and the day following.
00:33:32Because it is not correct for a prophet to die outside Jerusalem.
00:33:38So, Jesus, peace be upon him, if you read the Red Letter Bible, it's him speaking.
00:33:43What is he saying?
00:33:45So, I will walk today, tomorrow and the day following, because it's not correct for a prophet to die outside Jerusalem.
00:33:51Where did the crucifixion take place?
00:33:54We've just seen in Matthew 27, 32, 35, Mark 15, 21, 24, that it was Golgotha.
00:34:04And as you know, Golgotha is outside Jerusalem, outside the city walls of Jerusalem.
00:34:09So, what is Jesus telling you?
00:34:11He will not even be on the cross.
00:34:13In Matthew 12, 40 and in Luke 13, 33.
00:34:17So, it's either he is a false prophet or it's not him who's crucified.
00:34:22It's clear cut, please read Luke 13, 33.
00:34:26So, I give you the word of Jesus, not what other Romans have said from Acts and to Revelation.
00:34:35Okay.
00:34:36So, since you're focused on the words of Jesus, in Mark 10, 45 and Matthew 20, 28, he says,
00:34:45The Son of Man came to give his life as ransom for many.
00:34:50In John 10, 11, 15, 17 to 18, I am the good shepherd.
00:34:56Lay down my life for the sheep.
00:34:59I lay it down of myself.
00:35:02I have power to lay it down and to take it again.
00:35:06John 6, 51.
00:35:08No, I'm familiar with these two verses.
00:35:13Can I finish, please?
00:35:14I'm sorry.
00:35:15The bread that I give for the life of the world is my flesh.
00:35:21John 15, 13.
00:35:23Greater love hath no man than this, that the man lay down his life for his friends.
00:35:30And then he repeated in many different places the prediction that he must suffer, be killed, and after three days rise.
00:35:40And in John and in several passages, as Moses lifted up the serpent, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, unless a grain of wheat fall into the ground and die.
00:35:55And that's signifying what death he should die.
00:36:00So, and then in the covenant language, in the Last Supper, he says in Luke 22, 19 and 20,
00:36:08This is my body given for you.
00:36:10This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is shed for you.
00:36:16And in Matthew 26, 28 and Mark 14, 24, my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the remission of sins.
00:36:29So, what I think is very important that we do not cherry pick the passages which we think that are convenient for us.
00:36:39But we need to actually see the overarching theme and what all these passages together tell us.
00:36:48And the big message of the New Testament is what I just said in the beginning with the Creed.
00:36:55That Jesus, he was crucified, that he died, and that he rose, and that he came to pay for the sins of humanity.
00:37:04I hear what you said, and I do understand that is your belief, so it's not.
00:37:08But what I'm saying to you is that if you read, for instance, when you say to give his life as a ransom for many, when you give a life as a ransom, you take it back.
00:37:18So, that's not necessarily implied that.
00:37:21But if you read John 10, 17, no one can take my life.
00:37:25No one can take my life.
00:37:28So, John 10, 17.
00:37:30I give it of my own will.
00:37:33I have this command from my Father.
00:37:36So, does that not contradict what you've said?
00:37:40No, what he clearly is saying here is that he came to die on the cross for the sins of humanity.
00:37:50But, of course, that the Father would raise him again, which happened, and he was resurrected the third day.
00:37:57And then got his life back.
00:38:00So, the story that he was not crucified and that he did not resurrect contradicts very clearly the New Testament and the overarching plan of salvation,
00:38:13which is laid out in the Old Testament through over 356 prophecies, which are in regards of the Messiah and his suffering.
00:38:23And then in the New Testament, where Christ came precisely for that reason, to give his life as a ransom for many.
00:38:32As a ransom not to die.
00:38:33But if you go to Mark 14, 21, Jesus, peace be upon him, says, I will go and woe to him the person who betrayed me.
00:38:46He will regret the day he was born.
00:38:49So that means, as it is mentioned in some Gospels, which are canon, and especially Barnabas, yes, in the Gospel of Barnabas,
00:39:02he states that it was Judas Iscariot who actually was crucified, not Jesus.
00:39:10But if you go into so many, if you go to Hebrews 5, 7, it states, no, first, before Hebrews, let's go to Luke 22, 36.
00:39:23Now, Jesus, peace be upon him, said to his disciples, he who had a purse, let him take it.
00:39:30He who has a scrip, which is some sort of bag where you take your money and your provision in the old days, when you're traveling or whatever,
00:39:38who has a scrip, let him also, like, take it.
00:39:42And he who does not have a sword, let him buy one, sell his garment and buy one.
00:39:49Let him sell his garment, sell his clothes and buy one.
00:39:52Jesus, peace be upon him, in Luke 22, 36, he's saying to all his disciples,
00:39:57just before, this is before he went to pray in the Garden of Gethsemane,
00:40:01sell your clothes, because he felt that the time was coming near and there was too much animosity against him.
00:40:10And the Jews and the Romans were preparing for him, so he asked them to buy swords,
00:40:16even to the extent of saying, sell your clothes and buy a sword.
00:40:20And they did buy swords, according to the Bible.
00:40:23Because you remember that Peter, when they were guarding, when he was praying,
00:40:28after he was praying in the Garden of Gethsemane, he chopped someone's ear with a sword.
00:40:34So they did buy swords and they were guarding.
00:40:37So a question to you, you really need to sincerely think deeply about this Otangelo.
00:40:46If Jesus came to give his life as Christians, I would say, believe,
00:40:54if he came, why would he ask his disciples to sell their clothes and buy a sword so as to defend him,
00:40:59so that he does not die?
00:41:01It doesn't make sense, but it's not the only thing.
00:41:04When he went, the second thing, similar.
00:41:07In Matthew 26, 39, and in Mark 14, 36, and in Luke 22, 42,
00:41:14Jesus, peace be upon him, when he goes into the Garden of Gethsemane,
00:41:18he prays and prostrates like Muslims, as you know, and he prays long hours in the night.
00:41:24He makes a lot of supplications and a lot of prayers.
00:41:26You probably recall, three times he came out and he found his disciples asleep,
00:41:31where they were supposed to guard him with the swords, yes.
00:41:34So, in this, every Christian knows, in Matthew 26, 39, Mark 14, 36, Luke 22, 42,
00:41:44Jesus says, asks God in a supplication, prostrating for long hours, take this cup away from me,
00:41:51meaning save me from the crucifixion.
00:41:54Take this cup away from me.
00:41:56Second, this is second reason.
00:41:58If Jesus came to give his life as you believe, why would he ask God to save him?
00:42:04Not only that, in Hebrews 5, 7, it tells you literally that God, and on the day,
00:42:12he prayed a lot, he made a lot of supplications, reference to the Garden of Gethsemane, the three verses which I gave you,
00:42:24made a lot of supplications, asking the only one who could have saved him, he was heard in what he feared.
00:42:31He was heard, in English means, God received his, received and accepted his supplication, and answered favorably.
00:42:42And if you go to John 11, 42, 41, 42, after he, Jesus resuscitated his old friend Lazarus, he said,
00:42:55thanking God, he said to God, you always hear my supplications, my prayers, always, always.
00:43:04Meaning, God has never, ever refused the supplication from Jesus.
00:43:09This is in John 11, 41, 42.
00:43:12So, how can anyone state, state that Jesus was crucified, and he came down to crucified,
00:43:21when he asked people to buy a sword so as to defend him,
00:43:24when he prayed to God and asked him to save him,
00:43:26and the Bible, both in the New and Old Testament, tells you he saved him.
00:43:29I'll give you a few other verses very quickly, Otangelo, and I'll hear what you have to say about this.
00:43:34If you go to Psalms 91, 14, 16, Jesus was saved.
00:43:43If you go to Psalms 20, 6, it states clearly that God saved Yeshua.
00:43:56He saved Yeshua.
00:43:57Who is Yeshua?
00:43:58It's a Hebrew name for Jesus.
00:44:00So, God saved him in Psalms 26.
00:44:03If you go to Psalms 11, 6, it tells you literally, Otangelo, take a deep breath.
00:44:09It tells you, Ingello, in reply to Matthew 26, 39, Mark 14, 36, and Luke 22, 42,
00:44:18when Jesus takes this cup away from me, already in Psalms 11, 6, and God took the cup.
00:44:26He took the cup away from Yeshua.
00:44:32He took the cup away from him.
00:44:33Meaning, when he was praying in the New Testament for salvation,
00:44:37you already have the prophecy of salvation in Psalms 11, 6.
00:44:45There are many others like this.
00:44:46I've only given you the Psalms 115 also.
00:44:49I've only given you a few.
00:44:51Because, as I said, I'm working from memory.
00:44:53So, wherever you go in the Old Testament or the New Testament,
00:44:56you see nothing but God saved Jesus.
00:44:59Let's combine.
00:45:01Maybe we can do this and then we can talk about the...
00:45:05We can talk about another thing, if you wish to reply to this one.
00:45:10To the few that I have mentioned.
00:45:24Are you there?
00:45:25Yeah, go ahead.
00:45:26You can give me the verses.
00:45:28No, I've given you the set of verses.
00:45:31The only thing I want to say, which is compatible with the Islamic belief,
00:45:36in the Bible, in today's Bible,
00:45:38there are zero, literally zero, eyewitnesses for the crucifixion.
00:45:45Which I cite to you in the first verse in the Quran.
00:45:49And those who doubt therein are following nothing but guesswork.
00:45:55If you go to Matthew 1450, they all forsake him and fled.
00:46:00You're familiar with 1450.
00:46:02They all forsake him and fled.
00:46:03Meaning?
00:46:04No eyewitnesses.
00:46:05Zero eyewitnesses.
00:46:06If you go to...
00:46:07If you go to...
00:46:08This was Mark 1450.
00:46:11If you go to Matthew 26, 56.
00:46:14They all forsook him and fled.
00:46:17If you go to Luke, I think it's 22...
00:46:24Not 22, 36.
00:46:25I forgot this one.
00:46:26But if you go to Luke, also in Luke, there is a similar verse and you remember it.
00:46:31When the Jews came to arrest him, only Peter followed from afar off.
00:46:36No one else followed.
00:46:37Only Peter followed.
00:46:39So that means zero eyewitnesses.
00:46:41Some people state and some Christians...
00:46:43Oh no, the women were there.
00:46:44No.
00:46:45The Bible is clear.
00:46:46It's crystal clear.
00:46:47The women were afar off.
00:46:49And afar off means they could not see anything.
00:46:53So for the crucifixion, this is in a line.
00:46:56100% aligned with the Islamic view.
00:46:58For the crucifixion, zero eyewitnesses.
00:47:01For the resurrection, zero eyewitnesses in the Bible.
00:47:05But in today's Bible, when the two angels lifted him, I do not know whether there were hundreds of people or dozens or whatever.
00:47:14But the disciples and people actually witnessed the two angels taking him up, which aligns with the Quran.
00:47:22So zero eyewitnesses for the crucifixion, zero eyewitnesses for the resurrection.
00:47:28When they went there, you know, every Christian knows they didn't find him.
00:47:31Even when the women went there and they saw two angels, was that in 24, 21, 24, 21 or whatever.
00:47:40And when the women went there, they found two angels in shiny clothes.
00:47:46And the angels told them, why are you looking for the living among the dead?
00:47:50So the women fell on their heads, as they were Muslims, prostrating.
00:47:57Why did they prostrate?
00:47:59The writer tells you because they were frightened.
00:48:02But that's not true.
00:48:03The writer is actually writing something totally incorrect.
00:48:05And he knows why he's writing things incorrect.
00:48:08When the angel Gabriel came to Abraham and gave him the glad tidings that he would have Ishmael as a son,
00:48:14he prostrated in the Bible, he prostrated to thank God.
00:48:19When the angel Gabriel came to Abraham in the Bible and gave him the glad tidings,
00:48:23he would get Isaac as a son.
00:48:25He prostrated to thank God.
00:48:28There are four instances where the Muslims prostrate.
00:48:31One, in the normal prayer.
00:48:33Second, when you read the Quran, there are about 12 or 13 times when you see a little hut or house or something.
00:48:42And when you read the Quran, we prostrate when we see them.
00:48:45There's 13 in the entire Quran.
00:48:47We prostrate.
00:48:48That's the second.
00:48:49The third, when we make a supplication from God.
00:48:51And the fourth, when we thank God.
00:48:53And then Abraham thanked God about Ishmael and about Isaac by prostrating.
00:49:01And the women prostrated because they heard Jesus was alive, not dead.
00:49:05Because the two angels in shining clothes told them he's alive.
00:49:08And no one, really literally, no one in the entire Bible has seen resurrection.
00:49:16When they saw Jesus, they saw him alive.
00:49:18But you can say, oh yeah, he's resurrected.
00:49:20No, he's not resurrected.
00:49:21He was alive.
00:49:22He never died.
00:49:23In numerous verses, that he would not die.
00:49:28He would not even be on the cross.
00:49:30As in Luke 13, 33 and Matthew 12, 14, among others.
00:49:35I will give you my view.
00:49:36Yeah, Mohammed.
00:49:37I will soon have to go.
00:49:40But before we end the stream, I would like to answer the claims which you just made.
00:49:48Okay?
00:49:49So, and I will quote you here from the Gospels.
00:49:53Matthew 27, 35.
00:49:56And they crucified him.
00:49:5827, 38.
00:50:00Then, where there are two thieves.
00:50:02That was Simon.
00:50:03Sorry, Angelo.
00:50:04That was Simon, not Jesus.
00:50:05Please read the text.
00:50:08Read it in English and in German and in French.
00:50:11That was Simon who was crucified, not Jesus.
00:50:14Yeah.
00:50:15And here in John 19, 23, then the soldiers, when they had crucified Jesus.
00:50:22And then 19, 20, the place where Jesus was crucified was nigh to the city.
00:50:30So, they specifically mentioned Jesus.
00:50:34And then about his death, Matthew 27, 50.
00:50:39Jesus cried again with a loud voice and yielded up the ghost.
00:50:45And Mark, Jesus cried with a loud voice and gave up the ghost.
00:50:50Pilate verifies the death with the centurion before releasing the body.
00:50:55And Luke, he said, Father, into your hands I commit my spirit.
00:51:00And having said this, he breathed his last.
00:51:03And in John, he said, it's finished, and gave up his spirit.
00:51:08In 1933, they saw that he was dead already.
00:51:13But one of the soldiers pierced his side, confirming his death.
00:51:18And then in regards of your claim that no apostle was presenting as an eyewitness, here it says,
00:51:28John, the disciple whom he loved, is at the cross and receives Jesus' mother.
00:51:34John 19, 25.
00:51:36I got it.
00:51:37The others are not reported at Golgotha, in fact.
00:51:40But John was reported.
00:51:42So, your claim that there was no apostle, eyewitnessing is also false.
00:51:49So, these verses, they are straight up from the New Testament, from the Gospels, and they straight up contradict your claim that Jesus was not crucified, that he did not die, and that there were no eyewitnesses.
00:52:05So, all three claims, based on these verses, they are false.
00:52:09Okay?
00:52:10And my point is that, which I just told you in the beginning, of course, a Muslim or an atheist or whoever wants, can simply claim and say, well, these are all made up stories.
00:52:27Where is the evidence that this is true, that Jesus was indeed crucified, and that he did resurrect the third day?
00:52:36And for me, it is so relevant, and special to those which deny these facts, to mention the Shroud of Turin, because the burial cloth of Jesus and the sudarion, the handkerchief cloth, they are both mentioned in the Gospels.
00:52:54And we have them. One is in Turin, and the other is in Oviedo.
00:52:59And all the scientific proofs and evidence has pointed to the fact that these cloths are authentic.
00:53:08And the image, nobody is able to reproduce the image, and then claiming this is forgery.
00:53:15So, all the evidence points to a miraculous formation of that image.
00:53:20So, if we put all this together, and also the theological meaning of all of this, that Jesus died on the cross for our sins because God loves us and wants to save us.
00:53:32We cannot save ourselves by our own means.
00:53:37So, he came to save us because we could not do it by our own, because he loves us.
00:53:43This is a very, very powerful and strong message, Mohamed, which, unfortunately, your religion denies.
00:53:50And if I am correct, then I will be saved because I believe in Christ as my Lord and Savior, and I will have eternal life.
00:54:01And you which do deny this, you will not have the benefit of what he did for you, because you deny it.
00:54:11You don't believe that this even happened, and he will not be able to save you.
00:54:16So, this is very serious.
00:54:18And it is very important that every one of us really deeply thinks about the evidence and analyzes it, and also questions who claims that this isn't true.
00:54:30I mean, you cannot start with the claim that the Quran is true.
00:54:35The Quran is true, eventually, at the end, when you make all the investigation, then you can say either based on the evidence the Quran is true or false.
00:54:45Based on the evidence that we do have, the claim that Jesus was not crucified simply does not withstand scrutiny, right?
00:54:58So, this is how I see it.
00:55:02I don't think that the evidence that you brought to the table is convincing, but I would say this.
00:55:09My burden of proof is this, Mohamed, and I think it should also be your burden of proof.
00:55:15Show me how a forger can make the image on the Shroud of Turin.
00:55:22If you can show me that anyone even today is capable of doing it, then this evidence falls apart as evidence that the crucifixion and resurrection happened.
00:55:35If someone cannot show that the image on this cloth can be made by human hand, then in my understanding it is very, very powerful evidence that indeed it was made by Christ at the moment of the resurrection where he left miraculously his image as a receipt to showing us that he paid for our sins and indeed whatever is written in the gospels is true.
00:56:03But, Otangelo, if I may just say, you know, with respect, I know you have spent probably many years about the Shroud of Turin and things like that, but I have no knowledge of such things.
00:56:16So, what I do, I concentrate on the Bible.
00:56:19And if I take the globally, as you said, you have to take this globally from the Bible.
00:56:22If I take this globally from the Bible...
00:56:24Mohamed, I'm sorry if I have to interrupt because I have to go.
00:56:28Yes.
00:56:29Okay.
00:56:30Maybe we can continue another time, but I just wanted to mention, I just wanted to mention one single fact.
00:56:34Because what you've said about the crucifixion, if Jesus is not crucified or if he is crucified, that makes a difference to you and to me and to the whole world.
00:56:45But if you see Jesus in the four gospels, he preached nothing but the law.
00:56:51But there is no Christian who follows the law.
00:56:53So, the crucifixion contradicts Matthew 23, 1-2, when he says the Jews sit on Moses' seat, do everything as Jesus speak and peace be upon him.
00:57:06Do everything they tell you to do, but do not do what they do as they preach what they do not do.
00:57:12So, he's asking you to follow.
00:57:13If you go to Matthew 5, 17, Jesus, please be upon him, he's saying to you, I have not come to destroy the prophets and the law, but to fulfill.
00:57:23And the next verse, he who teaches the law, who follows and teaches the law, he'll be the highest in heaven, meaning paradise.
00:57:33And the opposite, who does not follow the law, this is in 5, 18, and teaches men to do so, he will be the least in heaven.
00:57:42And the following verse, unless you are better than the scribes and the Pharisees, you will never enter heaven.
00:57:52So, if you take even John 15, 10, or if you take Matthew 7, 21, 22, 23, Jesus taught nothing but the law.
00:58:06So, he told the Christian, but no Christian follows the law, because the Romans told them not to follow the law.
00:58:13But in the Gospels, Jesus taught the law.
00:58:15So, if Jesus taught the law, why would he say, I have come to die for you, when he said the exact opposite?
00:58:22So, I said to you initially, sorry, we don't have time.
00:58:24Maybe we can chat some other time and continue the conversation, because it's very interesting.
00:58:30Yeah, just quick to respond these two minutes, and then I have to close.
00:58:35But anyway, first of all, I believe that every Christian follows the law in Christ.
00:58:44That means that Jesus, he fulfilled the full law, he didn't sin, and this was accepted by the Father.
00:58:51His sacrifice was accepted because he didn't sin.
00:58:55Would he have sinned, then his sacrifice would be worthless, because then he would have died as a sinner.
00:59:02But since he died as a pure lamb without sin, he was able to pay for the sins of others.
00:59:11But until the moment that he did sacrifice himself, the law was in place.
00:59:18In the New Testament, we have the change from the law to grace.
00:59:23So, we live in the age of grace, where we are saved in Christ, based on what he did for us.
00:59:31Okay, so this is theological.
00:59:33But since you told me that you have not studied the Shroud of Turin, I encourage you to do so.
00:59:39I did send you my book through WhatsApp.
00:59:43There, everything that I told you here about the image formation and so forth, is written about in all details, so you can go and study it.
00:59:53And I'll be more than happy to answer any doubts or questions that you may have in regards of that.
01:00:00But I think that the Shroud is, how can I say, it is something which actually draws the limits.
01:00:15You see it as evidence.
01:00:17If the Shroud is true, and it is a miraculous image made at the resurrection, then the Gospels are true.
01:00:25Jesus was indeed crucified and did resurrect.
01:00:29If the Shroud is a forgery, then we have only the Gospels and other testimonies outside of the Bible.
01:00:38But I think this is very, very powerful evidence, which I recommend that you study in depth to make your own conclusion.
01:00:46Don't take me by my word. Go and study and investigate by yourself.
01:00:50No, I concentrate on the Bible in all honesty and tangible.
01:00:54If in the Bible it is, to me at least, clear-cut that Jesus was never crucified, I cannot go to something outside the Bible and try and justify something which is contradictory to the main message of the actual Bible.
01:01:09But with respect, you know, we differ and I know you spent a lot of time on the Shroud.
01:01:14Yes, of course, and I respect your view, you know, I respect anyone that has and holds different beliefs.
01:01:21And I think this is very important.
01:01:23So I have no problem with that.
01:01:26But again, I have to go.
01:01:28I appreciate your time and it was a pleasure to talk to you.
01:01:33Yes, and the same here.
01:01:34Maybe we can have a nice weekend. Pleasure talking to you.
01:01:38Bye-bye.
01:01:39Yes, nice.
01:01:41Bye-bye.
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