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Interview with a Killer Season 3 Episode 2
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00:00Now your ass is mine, and I'm guaranteeing you, I'm going to f***ing murder you.
00:13I'm letting you know that now, because you know what?
00:16Josh might have played me, but bitch, I'm going to play your ass out, too.
00:18Watch.
00:19The case played out like a real-life version of Mean Girls.
00:23She is a fugly slut.
00:28You're a f***ing fat bitch, and I'm going to f***ing kill you, I swear on my life.
00:33How do you account for that?
00:35I don't. I was basically obsessed with the chase of it all.
00:39Only this time, the rivalry and jealousy ended not in high school drama, but in murder.
00:45I said it because I was upset, and truthfully, I wanted to scare.
00:48I'm going to show you a psycho.
00:49I never had the intent on actually harming.
00:51And I'm guaranteeing you, I'm going to f***ing murder you.
00:54Maybe that's something that, you know, one could dismiss as angry teenage banter, but
01:00not after you actually kill her.
01:03The next piece of information that you need to know is that she is dead.
01:09Oh my God.
01:11All this over Josh.
01:13I had a one-track mind.
01:15Boys.
01:15Yes. A boy.
01:17And at that point, I was just feuding with Sarah.
01:20Two teenage girls fighting over one boy lead to one bleeding out on a suburban street in Florida.
01:25You're on Pinellas Park.
01:26Okay.
01:27What happened?
01:28F*** Rachel!
01:30Just f*** out her.
01:31And the other, Rachel Wade, convicted of murder.
01:35Rachel deserves a life sentence, Your Honor.
01:37For 16 years, she's always maintained it was self-defense, not murder, despite evidence to the contrary.
01:44There was two sides to it, and I mean, I didn't go after her.
01:48I did, but I could do avoid it.
01:50Self-defense means you have no choice, right?
01:53But you had plenty.
01:55I mean, you're right.
01:56What did you do before you left your apartment?
02:00I grabbed a knife.
02:01It's not self-defense if you're out in the streets with a weapon.
02:05Now, would she finally come clean?
02:08Do you accept that you murdered Sarah?
02:10You're right.
03:32On June 15, 2009, a 911 call came in.
03:36On the other end, a panicked voice struggling to explain what happened.
03:39You're in Pinellas Park.
03:40Okay, what happened?
03:42F*** Rachel!
03:43Just f***ed out her.
03:45Okay, where's the body of the patient stabbed?
03:47I swear to God, this is...
03:49All right.
03:49Someone has got to come.
03:51This girl up on the ground.
03:52Okay, passed out.
03:53I don't know if she's alive.
03:54I don't know.
03:55You think she's passed out now?
03:56I don't know.
03:57Oh, she's just, she's like coming and going.
03:59Stay with us.
04:00Yeah.
04:01A simmering feud between two teenage girls over a boy finally exploded when 19-year-old
04:08Rachel Wade stabbed 18-year-old Sarah Ludman twice, the second blow piercing her heart.
04:14As emotions flared, Rachel's arms remained crossed.
04:17She's accused of stabbing Pinellas Park student Sarah Ludman to death.
04:21Both girls were engaged in a vicious internet battle over another teenager.
04:25Rachel Wade stuck to her story that she stabbed Sarah Ludman in self-defense.
04:30Despite her conviction for murder a decade and a half ago, Rachel Wade has always claimed
04:35she stabbed Sarah Ludman in self-defense.
04:38I acted in self-defense because I got attacked.
04:41She grabbed me by my hair and I ran flailing my arms.
04:44A claim she bolstered over the years in legal appeals.
04:47Deep in the swampland of Central Florida, at Lowell Correctional Institution, Wade, now
04:5435, says she's ready to open up about the crime.
04:58And I wonder if she'll finally take responsibility for murder.
05:02It's been, what, 16 years since that fateful night?
05:06No doubt you're older and wiser now.
05:09Yes.
05:10We wanted to talk to you today to really to try and understand the mindset and motivations
05:16behind your actions in this case.
05:19Why did you want to talk to us?
05:21Honestly, because there's a lot of young girls out there that I think have been through similar
05:24situations and luckily they may not have escalated to that and I want to help prevent that.
05:29I want you to help me understand that teenage Rachel that got you in all this trouble.
05:36Help me get inside her head, okay?
05:39From the record, it sounds like life started off just fine for you, right?
05:44You had two hardworking, loving parents.
05:47Yes.
05:47Very supportive.
05:48Yes.
05:49Always have been.
05:51Mm-hmm.
05:52And it showed.
05:54In grade school, at least, you were regarded as a very bright, promising girl.
05:59Yes.
05:59The only criticism that I saw from your teachers in the record is that you were overly social.
06:06I was extremely social, yes.
06:08But in high school, Rachel's behavior started to go seriously sideways.
06:13Now, teenage rebellion is common.
06:16But you really, based on the record, seem to have taken it to an extreme.
06:21Yes.
06:22Right?
06:22Is that fair?
06:23Yes.
06:23My parents were very overbearing to me, which now I see they were looking out for my best interest.
06:28And I just went the opposite direction in every way I could.
06:32And you were just defiant.
06:34Yes.
06:35Right?
06:35Do you know how many times your parents called the police?
06:39No, I was a runaway countless times.
06:41I know that they were very concerned.
06:43So anytime I left the house without permission, they called.
06:45So I would say probably 30 or more.
06:4730 or more times.
06:48Yes.
06:48You became a serial runaway.
06:50Yes.
06:51Once I met a boy that was older and I just took a different direction, I didn't care about schoolwork anymore.
06:56I used to be very proud or wanted to make my parents proud.
07:00All that kind of went out the window and I had a one-track mind.
07:04Boys?
07:04Yes.
07:05A boy.
07:07At 16, she started dating a 19-year-old young man.
07:10Her parents caught her having sex with him and called the police.
07:13He was arrested because you were underage.
07:16Yes.
07:16Right?
07:17And you still insisted on continuing to see him.
07:20Yes.
07:21Looking back, how do you understand that behavior?
07:24I don't because I really don't understand why I felt the need to be in that relationship.
07:30Yeah.
07:31Because it didn't do me any good.
07:34After all, Rachel was a knockout.
07:36According to her friends, all the boys were after her.
07:39So why did she seem to always get stuck on the wrong guys?
07:42Your dad used the term fatal attraction.
07:46Yes.
07:47To characterize your early obsessive romances.
07:51Yes.
07:51Do you think that's fair characterization?
07:53Yes.
07:53Looking back, I do.
07:54Hmm.
07:55This whole turn away from your parents and their rules put you at risk, right?
08:01Yes.
08:02You're staying out all night, sleeping in cars or on couches, sometimes with people that you didn't or couldn't even recall their names.
08:12Yes.
08:13What was going on there?
08:14I think I just wanted to stay away.
08:15Once I got caught being with the older guy, my mother called the cops and that was just the end of it for me.
08:23I didn't want to talk to them about anything.
08:25I didn't think that they really understood.
08:27Your folks took you to counseling?
08:29Yes.
08:30Right.
08:31Were you diagnosed?
08:32I believe they said that I was bipolar and manically depressed.
08:36Were you treated for those conditions?
08:38I was put on medication and I probably stopped very shortly after I didn't stick with it.
08:43Is it possible, Rachel, that your mental health conditions, bipolar disorder, depression, put you in a state of mind where you couldn't act on obvious red flags?
08:58Maybe, yeah.
08:59Soon you left school.
09:01Yes.
09:02You said you lost interest after the boy you liked got kicked out.
09:07Did your parents protest that decision?
09:10They did.
09:10They were very upset.
09:11In a high school dropout, she was now living on her own and working at Applebee's and, of course, dating.
09:18And then there's a pattern emerges of these passionate but volatile relationships.
09:24None more so than the small man with the big ego, Josh Camacho.
09:32Emphasis on the macho.
09:33Yes.
09:34Spring 2008.
09:36Now, you've known him since childhood, but do you remember the moment that you reconnected as adults and fell for him?
09:43Yes.
09:43You take me back to that?
09:44Um, if I'm being honest.
09:46Yeah.
09:46When he first started trying to pursue me, I kind of laughed at it.
09:50I had no interest.
09:51I don't really know what sparked it one night.
09:53He kissed me and I just kind of went for it.
09:56Do you think you became obsessed with him?
09:58Um, I think I became obsessed with the situation.
10:01The situation was a love triangle.
10:04Josh Camacho had another girlfriend, Sarah Ludeman.
10:09Really was just kind of oblivious in the beginning.
10:11I didn't believe he was cheating.
10:13And then when I started seeing the truth, I think I spiraled.
10:15I told you to watch your ass and not to go with him.
10:18Now you're out of his mind.
10:20The chase between the two lovesick teens had just begun and would soon turn deadly.
10:25She's being concerned.
10:25What's going on?
10:26There's a seven.
10:27There's a fight and there's a seven.
10:28Someone was stabbed?
10:30Yes.
10:30She's on the floor.
10:31Who stabbed her?
10:32Oh, no.
10:36Oh, no.
10:40Oh, no.
10:42Oh, no.
10:44It was spring of 2008.
10:5119-year-old Rachel Wade was on the rebound from one bad relationship and about to start another
10:56with a teenager she'd known since childhood.
10:59I want to get over the last guy, the older guy that I was with.
11:02So I just decided to go for it.
11:04And I've known Josh my whole life.
11:05So I think I thought it was a safe space.
11:08Josh Camacho was slight of build and stood only five foot five inches tall.
11:12But he was every inch a player for sure.
11:15And you were all in, right?
11:18You posted.
11:19You were in love.
11:20And, quote, he's all mine.
11:22Yes.
11:22You were planting the flag.
11:24Yes.
11:25On him.
11:25And, of course, you weren't alone in this powerful attachment to Josh Camacho.
11:30Rachel knew that Josh, at his young age, already had a child with a girl named Erin.
11:36But after just a few months of dating, Rachel was scrolling on the social media platform MySpace
11:41and noticed a photo of Camacho with another girl at the beach, Sarah Ludeman.
11:47That set you off?
11:49Yes.
11:49That was when I think I found out or I realized that he was really seeing somebody else.
11:55And then when I started seeing the truth, I think I spiraled.
11:5917-year-old Sarah Ludeman, a junior in high school, was driven.
12:03She attended a specialized school and hoped to be a veterinarian.
12:08But all that changed one summer day when Josh Camacho emerged from the back of the local Chick-fil-A
12:13where he worked, walked past Ludeman, and winked.
12:17That was it.
12:17She was smitten.
12:19Soon Josh would be dating both Sarah and Rachel.
12:22When you started seeing the truth, was your anger directed at him or at Sarah?
12:30It was directed at both.
12:32It didn't go very well for me when it was directed at him.
12:35It usually turned into a pretty bad fight.
12:37Physical?
12:38Sometimes.
12:39A lot of mental and emotional.
12:41And he would normally leave, and then I would usually go the other route.
12:46What do you mean?
12:46I would argue with Sarah.
12:48So the feud with Sarah starts on social media, right?
12:53I don't know.
12:53It was just a constant rival.
12:55It consumed me to the point where I was tired of being harassed.
12:57But you were harassing just as much.
13:00I was, yes.
13:01You're both doing your best to scare and humiliate each other.
13:04Yes.
13:04And to secure your positions with Josh.
13:08Yes.
13:09I have to say, some of your messages to her seem really unhinged.
13:13Yes.
13:13Don't you have to fuck these, Sarah.
13:15Seriously.
13:16Answer your fucking phone.
13:17Don't be a fucking bitch.
13:18You want to come through my fucking neighborhood and be a psycho bitch.
13:21Just like fucking Aaron.
13:22Fuck with Josh's car.
13:23You're fucking with me when you fucking hit you.
13:25Seriously.
13:26I'm letting you know now.
13:27You're either going to get fucked up or something of yours is.
13:29So watch the fuck out or answer your fucking phone.
13:32Stop being a bitch.
13:33End of message.
13:36How do you explain that?
13:37There was plenty of times that she came to my job harassing me.
13:41And I had to ask my manager to dismiss her because I was going to get in trouble.
13:45They made me spill beers on customers.
13:48They followed me home from work and rear-ended my roommate at the time's car.
13:52So all of that leading up, I think that my threats to her, I did intend to scare her.
13:58Along with my, you know, my rage or fit of rage at the moment.
14:03In what will later become key evidence in the trial, Wade calls Luterman again and issues a death threat.
14:10Please tell me, Sarah, why you would be a dumb enough fuck to put a brand new picture of you and Josh at the beach on your mind space.
14:19Seriously, I told you to watch your fucking back and not to go with him.
14:23Now your ass is mine and I'm guaranteeing you I'm going to murder you.
14:27I'm letting you know that now because you know what?
14:29Josh might have played me, but bitch, I'm going to play your ass out too.
14:31Watch, you're a fucking fat bitch and I'm going to fucking kill you.
14:34I swear all my life.
14:36Body shaming, threats of violence, even death.
14:40How do you account for that?
14:41So I think I really just wanted to scare them.
14:45I wanted them to think that I would do something, which I never really had the intent to do.
14:49And then they would just stop.
14:52The horse race for Josh's affections went on for months and Josh seemed to enjoy it.
14:57One week he's with Rachel, the next Sarah.
15:00The two girls jockeying for position and taunting each other.
15:04March 2009.
15:05She's posting pictures of her with Josh in New York, so she's winning.
15:11You have to see these images pop up unless they've driven you crazy.
15:15Yeah.
15:16Yeah?
15:16It was upsetting because I believed him when he said that he wasn't seeing her, of course.
15:20And then I would post and do the same exact thing in return.
15:24By April, the tide of Josh seems to turn against Sarah.
15:30He's now ignoring her again at school.
15:34His treatment of hers sounds abhorrent.
15:37I didn't know he was mistreating her at the moment.
15:39I thought that they were together.
15:41And I think, to be honest, that I had started seeing somebody else or hanging out with other people.
15:47So even though you were hanging out with other people, pursuing other love interests,
15:53you still couldn't detach from the Josh-Sara dynamic?
15:58I think she was still making phone calls or, you know, doing things in assumption that we were still together.
16:03And I think that I still fed it, yes.
16:06April 13th, you post on MySpace, loving my boo.
16:11I'm sure at the time you knew that she was going to see it and be upset, right?
16:14I love it.
16:15And no doubt she was.
16:17All this leads to April 14th, 2009, right?
16:22Josh makes plans with you.
16:25Was I just out of the blue?
16:27He called me and asked to stay the night at my house.
16:30I ended up asking him if he loved me.
16:32And he said, I don't know.
16:34I said, do you love her?
16:35He said, I don't know.
16:366.36 p.m.
16:38Sarah texts Josh, complaining about his treatment of her.
16:43Josh acquiesces and invites Sarah over to his sister's house to hang out.
16:48Thrilled, Sarah updates her MySpace page with a post.
16:528.30 p.m.
16:53She borrows her folks' minivan and heads over to be with Josh at his sister's house.
16:59But first, she drives by your apartment.
17:02And she yells, according to one of her friends, stay away from my man.
17:06I didn't know what she called out.
17:08I know that there was a lot of screaming outside of my apartment that night.
17:10You didn't take the switcheroo very well.
17:15I can understand that.
17:17I mean, you must have been livid.
17:19Can you admit that?
17:20I remember I was very upset when I drove through, yes.
17:22Over the course of that night, Rachel would go from upset to red-hot mad with deadly consequences.
17:30Tell me, Rachel, tell me what happened that night.
17:40Did you murder her mother to try and drive her back into your arm?
17:46Oh, my God.
17:49Interview with a Killer.
17:51New episode next Saturday at 8 Eastern and Pacific.
17:54Only on Court TV.
17:56Six-year-old shot his teacher.
17:58They're tried battling that it is part of the job.
18:02Just outrageous.
18:03The first grader shoots teacher civil trial.
18:05Live coverage weekday mornings, 8, 7 Central on Court TV.
18:10It was April 14, 2009.
18:19The night sky was clear with a calm breeze.
18:22Weather be lying the violence about to unfold.
18:25Sarah Ludman, Rachel Wade claims, had cruised by Rachel's apartment in her parents' minivan,
18:31screaming threats to stay away from Josh Camacho.
18:34The man, if you can call him that, the teenage girls were fighting over.
18:38For support, Rachel called yet another boy she'd been dating, Javier Laboy.
18:44I called him and asked if I could go to his house because it was somewhere that I thought nobody would know where it was.
18:50You went there seeking shelter?
18:52I went there to wait for my friend because she was with her boyfriend, yes.
18:56Right. Now, you've said that you were so afraid at that point, right?
19:03Yes. They had told me they had intentions on jumping me and there was numerous people with them, so yes, I was.
19:08Afraid for your life?
19:09I guess you could say so.
19:11Before you leave your house, you grab a kitchen knife.
19:14Yes.
19:15Why?
19:15I thought it would scare them because I knew that there was going to be numerous people with them.
19:19I knew it wouldn't just be Sarah by herself.
19:21So were you more afraid or more angry?
19:25I think it was both.
19:27It strikes me that Wade wants to have it both ways in this interview.
19:30Sure, she admits to the killing, but she's still also heavily hinting at being afraid for her life,
19:36pretext for justifiable lethal force.
19:39And her memory is about to get wobbly, too.
19:41You end up at Javier's house.
19:45You told police you went there seeking safety, like safe harbor from these threats.
19:49Yes.
19:50Is that true?
19:50I did.
19:52And at the point you get there, are you more scared or more angry?
19:57I think I'm both. I don't know.
19:59I think the scared fueled the anger and vice versa.
20:02A witness that was there with you and Javier later said that you were in a rage when you showed up.
20:08Because rage suggests much more anger than fear, fury even.
20:15Can you admit to that?
20:16I admit to ranting about the circumstances of the night.
20:21Rage also suggests that you're not quite in your right mind.
20:28Yes.
20:28Is that fair?
20:29Yes.
20:29Enraged, Rachel wanted to confirm her suspicions that Sarah was with Josh that night.
20:36So she left and drove to Josh's sister's house and spotted them together.
20:41Josh saw her, too, and added insult to injury.
20:45He texts you.
20:46He says, go home.
20:47I don't like you no more.
20:49I do remember him saying go home.
20:51I don't remember all of it.
20:52Rachel drove back to Javier Laboy's house red hot mad.
20:56A friend of Laboy's, Dustin Grimes, was there as well.
21:00And he hears you say, when you get back from confirming your suspicions, that Josh is with Sarah.
21:07After canceling on you, I'm going to kill that f***ing bitch.
21:12I don't recall saying that at all.
21:14I had said that previous on a voicemail.
21:17I did not say that at that moment.
21:19And the reason that I left the house was...
21:20Why would Dustin lie about that?
21:21I don't know.
21:23To be honest...
21:24Is it possible that you were in some kind of red zone and you can't remember exactly what you said?
21:28No, the only thing...
21:29Because that's very specific and it seems unlikely that he would make that up out of blue.
21:34The only thing that I can say is he had a girlfriend that did not get along with me
21:39and was also friends with some of the girls that harassed me.
21:42Well, can you see how damning that evidence is?
21:46Yes.
21:4712.33 a.m., Sarah calls you, right?
21:52She's in the car on speakerphone.
21:54Two witnesses in the van say they heard you threaten to, quote,
21:59stab her and her Mexican boyfriend.
22:04No.
22:05I didn't say that.
22:05Did you deny that?
22:06Yes, I did not say that.
22:07So now three people have heard you make death threats, deadly threats,
22:14within the span of a short period of time, and you're denying all of that?
22:20I did not say that at all.
22:22I don't want to get bogged down arguing with you,
22:25but a lot of what you're saying contradicts what you said back then
22:29and certainly contradicts the evidence in the record.
22:32Do you realize that?
22:33I mean, I'm not going to admit to saying something I don't remember
22:36because I've never admitted to saying any of that that night.
22:39Okay.
22:39Well, you say you're here to try and help all the little girls out there
22:43that might go down this dark path.
22:46And I am.
22:47You are?
22:47Yes.
22:48But not if you're lying to me.
22:49But I'm not lying to you.
22:50That night, I do not recall making any threats of any kind like that.
22:55Sarah had called it a night and was about to drive home
22:58when she happens upon a friend who gave her what will be fateful intel.
23:03Rachel Wade was just blocks away in front of Javier Laboy's house,
23:07hanging out by her red car.
23:09Sarah and two friends sped off to confront her,
23:12unaware that Wade was armed with a knife.
23:15You were ready to fight her.
23:17You were not trying to avoid the fight.
23:18You were out there in the streets with a knife,
23:22almost like you're laying in wait for the fight.
23:25It sure seems that way.
23:27I don't recall.
23:29If I would have intended on really fighting her,
23:31I would have stopped at the house when she was outside and fought her.
23:35Where's the knife at this point?
23:36It's on the hood of my car.
23:38On the hood of your car.
23:39Ready.
23:40That's not exactly a defensive position.
23:42At around 12.30 a.m., Sarah and her friends arrived outside Laboy's house.
23:48The minivan screeched to a halt.
23:50Wade was ready.
23:51Within moments, Sarah is out of the car and face to face with her armed rival.
23:56Let's talk about the fight.
23:57Witnesses agree that the whole thing lasted just a few seconds.
24:01Is that your recollection?
24:02That I don't remember much of it, but yes.
24:04You told police you were flailing with both arms everywhere
24:11with the knife pointed out like this.
24:15I remember walking towards her with the knife pointed out,
24:17and I remember being struck one time
24:19and my head being kind of pushed down,
24:21and then I started swinging.
24:23One time?
24:23Yes.
24:24Okay.
24:25At the time, you said you were hit more than one time.
24:27I mean, I remember being hit once and my head being pushed down
24:30with the other two coming towards me.
24:33Sarah was unarmed.
24:34But Rachel was ready to strike back with deadly force.
24:37Her knife came down on Sarah twice, the second stab fatal.
24:42The fatal stab wound was a forcible wound, right?
24:47It was two and a half inches deep, pierced the pectoral muscle,
24:51all the fatty tissue, the fourth rib, in fact,
24:55the left lung and into the heart.
24:57It had to be delivered in a downward striking motion
25:02with weight behind it.
25:04In fact, witnesses describe what they saw consistent with that.
25:11Do you admit that?
25:13I don't recall a lot of that moment.
25:15If you can't remember the stabbing,
25:17how can you be so sure about all the other details
25:20that you recount from that?
25:22I mean, there's a lot of stuff that I'm not sure about
25:24that you've said that I don't recall any of them.
25:27Were you, like, in a blind rage?
25:30Is that why you can't remember?
25:32Could have been.
25:34After the stabbing, eyewitnesses saw Sarah stagger back to the minivan,
25:39where she used her last breath to call Josh.
25:42But all she could say is,
25:43it hurts.
25:45Then she collapsed on the pavement.
25:47At 12.45 a.m., Sarah's friend,
25:49Jaleisha Smith,
25:51frantically calls 911.
25:5218-year-old Sarah Ludeman was bleeding to death,
26:18and Rachel Wade was about to answer for her actions.
26:22We're out in the street holding it in a pipe.
26:28Rachel, this is where you're going to have to help me out
26:30because it's not defense to me
26:32when you go out into the street with the knife and confront them.
26:37A self-defense means you have no choice, right?
26:41But you had plenty.
26:48The voice on the 911 call was Javier Laboy,
27:04Rachel Wade's friend and sometimes boyfriend.
27:07He was trying to stop Sarah's bleeding
27:09by applying pressure to the stab wound.
27:11Surely thereafter,
27:36the police arrived at the scene
27:37to find Sarah lying in the street,
27:39her breathing shallow.
27:40Rachel Wade, meanwhile,
27:42was sitting calmly on a bench smoking a cigarette,
27:45but first Wade threw the murder weapon
27:47onto a neighbor's roof.
27:50Your accounts shifted a lot to police, right?
27:54At first, at the scene,
27:56you told them you didn't know what happened to Sarah
27:58and you didn't mention the knife.
28:00You ditched the knife.
28:02I did.
28:03And omitted it from your first police statement.
28:06I did.
28:06Why?
28:06I fear.
28:08Fear of?
28:09Uh, I, the outcome.
28:11I didn't really know what had actually happened.
28:13You were hiding evidence?
28:15Yes.
28:16There are disturbing accounts of your manner
28:18after you killed Sarah.
28:20One of the witnesses recounted that you were
28:23smirking or smiling after the stabbing.
28:26One cop said she appeared calm and unconcerned as to the events taking place around her.
28:33Another officer said the entire time she never became upset,
28:37never cried,
28:39never asked how the person who was stabbed was.
28:43How do you account for that?
28:44I don't recall much of any of that.
28:46I remember sitting on the front porch.
28:47I remember having guns drawn at me.
28:50At the time,
28:52you said that,
28:53well, I was in shock.
28:55They were noting your manner,
28:57your calm,
28:58unconcerned manner,
28:59with suspicion.
29:00Meanwhile,
29:02Sarah was actually in a physical state of shock.
29:06She had lost half the blood in her body.
29:10Under interrogation by homicide detectives just after the stabbing,
29:14Rachel claimed she was only defending herself.
29:16She just started screaming at me,
29:18and she laughed at me and said I wasn't going to do anything,
29:20and then she realized that I had a knife,
29:21and she kind of backed up,
29:22and then she started swinging at me anyways,
29:24and I just pulled me around.
29:25Where were you holding the knife at the time?
29:26I just had it out to the side,
29:28and then I saw Janet coming at me,
29:30and I saw the other girl come around in the back end of the car,
29:33and they were all screaming at me.
29:36At one point,
29:37you told police all three women were chasing you around your car,
29:41which doesn't match any of the evidence.
29:44I don't know why I said they were chasing me around my car.
29:46They did run up to my car,
29:48all three of them at one time.
29:49Some of the witnesses say that they didn't all get out together.
29:54Some say they did.
29:55And even though you made it sound like
29:58you were basically fending off Sarah and Janet at the same time,
30:02all of the witnesses say that no one touched you
30:06until after you fought and stabbed Sarah.
30:09Is that true?
30:10I don't recall anybody but Sarah hitting me initially, yes.
30:16The next piece of information that you need to know
30:18is that she is dead.
30:23Oh, my God.
30:25And she died as a result of these stab wounds
30:29that she had at Northside Hospital.
30:35Detectives deliver the devastating news of Sarah's death.
30:38Then dismantle Wade's self-defense claims.
30:41You're 19.
30:42You have to know that holding a knife in your hand,
30:46whether you intended to or not,
30:48if you stab somebody,
30:49the risk of that is a knife is a deadly weapon.
30:53You know that people die from sexual violence.
30:57So if you're holding a knife during a fight,
31:00the chance of that happening obviously increases dramatically.
31:05Rachel, this is where you're going to have to help me out
31:07because it's not defense to me
31:09when you go out into the street with a knife
31:12and confront them.
31:17The homicide detective explained it to you
31:19in that interrogation.
31:21A self-defense means you have no choice, right?
31:24But you had plenty.
31:25You could have stayed home and called the police.
31:27You could have gone to your parents and called the police.
31:30You could have taken shelter inside Javier's home
31:33and called the police.
31:35You could have just gone home when Josh said,
31:38go home.
31:40How do you account for that?
31:42I mean, you're right.
31:43I could have done any of those things.
31:45Most importantly, I could have called my parents.
31:48It would have been a safe place.
31:51This is why it looks more like fury than fear.
31:55It turns out Wade's blind rage
31:58had driven her to a knife attack once before.
32:02Now, this wasn't the first time
32:03you were violent with a knife.
32:05What about in November of 2005?
32:09Didn't you attack your mother?
32:11I was just attempting to cut myself
32:13and she tried to stop me.
32:15And I threw the knife and went in the bathroom.
32:17Well, first you assaulted her physically.
32:20I don't remember.
32:21I just remember throwing the knife
32:22when she came after me to take it from me.
32:24It's in the police report.
32:25You dug your fingers into her arms.
32:27You ran to the kitchen.
32:29You grabbed a knife and you threw it at her.
32:31Thank God.
32:32The blade didn't strike her abdomen.
32:35But is that another example
32:38of like you going into the red zone?
32:40Yes.
32:41Do you think that is part of your mental makeup
32:45or condition?
32:47Absolutely.
32:48Do you know the term covet?
32:51The covet?
32:51If that's when you want something
32:55so desperately that you can't have
32:58or that someone else has
33:00and it occupies your thoughts every day
33:03until it narrows your focus
33:06and then it starts to drive your choices
33:09and behavior.
33:10Does that ring true at all for you?
33:13Um, I think so.
33:14Yeah.
33:15Looking back,
33:15that could definitely.
33:17Did you kill Sarah
33:19out of your covetous desire
33:21to possess what she had with Josh?
33:24I can't say that
33:25because I didn't have the intent to kill Sarah.
33:30The crime leaves Sarah's father,
33:32Charlie Luderman, heartbroken,
33:34looking for answers
33:35and seeking cold comfort
33:37in calls to his dead daughter's cell phone.
33:39Yeah, Sarah's daddy.
33:42You know, you're not with us no more.
33:45I'm hoping somebody's listening to this phone.
33:48If you are, you can call me
33:50and I'll be probably on your screen.
33:54My daughter was killed last night.
33:56I just want a little closure.
33:59End of message.
34:01Would Sarah's parents and friends
34:02finally get the closure
34:03and answers they need?
34:05During the tense trial,
34:07Rachel Wade will try her best
34:09to avoid responsibility.
34:11I acted in self-defense
34:12because I got attacked.
34:19Did you murder her mother
34:21to try and drive her back into your arm?
34:24Oh my God.
34:27Interview with a Killer.
34:29New episode next Saturday
34:30at 8 Eastern and Pacific.
34:32Only on Court TV.
34:33A six-year-old shot his teacher.
34:36Their side battling
34:37that it is part of the job.
34:40Just outrageous.
34:41The first grader shoots teacher civil trial.
34:44Live coverage weekday mornings
34:458, 7 Central on Court TV.
34:54State, you may proceed
34:55with your opening statement.
34:57On July 21st of 2010
34:59at the Pinellas County Courthouse
35:01in Clearwater, Florida,
35:02Rachel Wade's murder trial began.
35:05Wade pleaded not guilty.
35:06This is Florida, after all,
35:08where the Stand Your Ground law
35:10allows for lethal force
35:11in cases of self-defense.
35:13Wade's attorney tried to use just that.
35:15This case is about self-defense.
35:19Make no mistake about it.
35:22Make no mistake about it.
35:23An individual has a right
35:25to stand their ground
35:26and defend themselves.
35:27They have no duty to retreat
35:29and Rachel Wade
35:30had the right
35:31to defend herself that night.
35:34I'm gonna
35:34murder you.
35:37But prosecutors
35:38have the benefit
35:39of Wade's own
35:40incriminating words.
35:41Guaranteating you,
35:42I'm gonna
35:43murder you.
35:44That is what
35:45Rachel Wade
35:47told
35:48Sarah Luderman
35:50seven and a half months
35:53before she took a knife
35:54and stabbed her
35:55right through the heart.
35:57Many of those there
35:58that night testified
35:59that Rachel was furious
36:00and made her plans known.
36:03At some point
36:04in the vehicle,
36:04while you were in the vehicle,
36:05did you overhear
36:06a conversation?
36:08A phone conversation?
36:09Yes.
36:10Um, yes.
36:11I heard
36:12a girl's voice
36:13on Sarah's phone
36:14and said,
36:15I'm gonna stab you
36:16and your Mexican boyfriend.
36:17Okay.
36:18Could you clearly
36:19hear the conversation?
36:21Yes.
36:21Tell the jury
36:22exactly what
36:23you heard her say.
36:24She said,
36:25I'm gonna stab you
36:26and your Mexican boyfriend.
36:28At some point in time,
36:29did she make the statement
36:30that she was gonna kill her?
36:32Yes.
36:33Okay.
36:33What was the statement
36:34that she made?
36:36I'm gonna kill that
36:37bitch.
36:40So,
36:40several months prior,
36:42you threatened her life.
36:45Within
36:46hours,
36:48or maybe even
36:50minutes
36:50of
36:52the confrontation,
36:53the physical confrontation,
36:55you're heard
36:56by
36:57three people,
36:59two different
37:00incidents,
37:01threatening her life.
37:03But you deny that now.
37:04I did not say that
37:05that night.
37:06You did not make
37:07either of those
37:08the death threats?
37:08I did not make
37:08those threats that night.
37:10Are you sure?
37:10I'm very sure.
37:12Because you
37:13did have some
37:14memory lapses
37:14that night.
37:15Yes.
37:16Right?
37:16But I know
37:17that I didn't,
37:17I barely even had
37:19a conversation
37:19with her that night.
37:21The evidence
37:21of murder
37:22piled up
37:22in the courtroom.
37:24Witness after witness
37:25sided against
37:26Rachel,
37:26including Janet Camacho,
37:28Josh's sister,
37:29recounting how
37:30Rachel approached
37:31Sarah on the
37:32offensive
37:32with a weapon.
37:33I see Rachel
37:36come up
37:37around her car
37:38with a knife
37:39in her hand.
37:40Around the front
37:41of her car?
37:41Yeah.
37:42Did she travel
37:42the entire distance
37:43from driver's side
37:45of the car
37:45to passenger's side?
37:47Like from where
37:48she was at
37:49from that side
37:51came around
37:52in front of
37:54Sarah's car.
37:55The defense
37:56would argue
37:56that Janet Camacho
37:57had an axe
37:58to grind.
37:59But witness
37:59Dustin Grimes
38:00was hard to impeach.
38:02An army soldier
38:03who by the time
38:04the trial started
38:05was serving overseas
38:06gave his testimony
38:07by video.
38:09As the van
38:09is put in the park
38:11the three girls
38:14get out of the van
38:15at the same time.
38:16At that time
38:16Rachel was already
38:18making her way
38:19towards Sarah
38:19towards the driver's
38:20side
38:21in front of the vehicle.
38:22The most
38:23non-partisan witness
38:24said he saw you
38:25move from your car
38:27to engage Sarah
38:28just as she had
38:30gotten out
38:30of the driver's side
38:31of the van
38:32and the forensic
38:34reports
38:34confirm that
38:37estimating that
38:39you must have
38:39crossed about
38:4012 feet
38:41to get to her.
38:43Does that bring
38:45I don't recall
38:45I remember them
38:46saying that
38:46they pulled up
38:47directly in front
38:48of my car
38:48and when they all
38:49jumped out
38:49at one time.
38:51In fact
38:53even the judge
38:53said at the
38:54sentencing
38:54the testimony
38:55of every single
38:56witness
38:56was that the
38:58defendant went
38:59towards the victim.
39:00Do you agree
39:06with that?
39:06I guess
39:07defense
39:10please call
39:11your first witness
39:11because we would
39:14call Javier
39:14Laboy
39:15only Rachel's
39:16former boyfriend
39:17Javier Laboy
39:18offered a token
39:19defense at trial.
39:21When
39:22Sarah got
39:23out of the vehicle
39:24would you tell
39:26this jury
39:26in your opinion
39:27based on the
39:28observation
39:29who was the
39:30aggressor
39:31in that situation?
39:32Sarah was.
39:34Will you tell
39:35this jury
39:35who was the
39:36one to throw
39:38the first punch?
39:39Sarah was.
39:40Finally
39:41in a risky move
39:42Rachel Wade
39:43took the stand.
39:44I began to
39:45swing my arms
39:45back
39:46in retaliation.
39:48To defend
39:49yourself?
39:49Yes.
39:50But her defense
39:51fell apart
39:51under withering
39:52cross-examination.
39:53You said that
39:54you couldn't
39:54even remember
39:55the point
39:55that you
39:55stabbed her.
39:57I don't
39:57remember
39:57physically
39:58stabbing her.
40:00You remember
40:00everything else.
40:04You remember
40:04what happened
40:05before.
40:06You remember
40:06all the threats,
40:07right?
40:08Yes.
40:08You remember
40:09everything that
40:09happened afterwards,
40:10right?
40:11And Jenna
40:11coming at you,
40:12right?
40:12Yes.
40:13You just
40:14don't remember
40:14that.
40:15I don't.
40:16So how would
40:16you know that
40:17you acted in
40:17self-defense
40:18if you don't
40:18remember that?
40:20I just remember
40:21swinging my arms.
40:22I don't physically
40:23remember.
40:23You're stabbing her.
40:25You told her
40:25you were going
40:26to murder her.
40:28Correct?
40:29Yes.
40:31You said Sarah
40:31had told you
40:32the same things.
40:33Yes.
40:34You're the only
40:34one that actually
40:35followed through
40:36on your promise.
40:39Isn't that true?
40:41Yes.
40:44In the end,
40:45the jury took
40:45only two hours
40:46to convict you,
40:47right?
40:48The defendant
40:49is guilty of murder
40:50in the second degree
40:50as charged.
40:51So say we all.
40:52They could have
40:53opted for manslaughter,
40:54but they didn't.
40:55They chose
40:55second degree murder.
40:57Right.
40:58A self-defense acquittal
40:59didn't sound like
41:00it was even
41:01on their radar.
41:02Do you now
41:03understand why?
41:04Yes.
41:04How would you
41:05explain it?
41:05I didn't hide from it.
41:08I didn't call the cops.
41:10Everything leading up
41:11to it looked damaging.
41:13On some level,
41:15you did feel
41:16an existential threat
41:17from Sarah.
41:18Not physically,
41:20but really,
41:21I guess,
41:21more in terms
41:21of your ego
41:22and the way
41:23you sort of
41:24organized your world.
41:26Could it be
41:26that that night
41:27when he clearly
41:29chose Sarah
41:30over you,
41:31that your ego
41:34was too fragile
41:35to bear it,
41:37and so you
41:37acted to
41:39annihilate the threat?
41:41Sarah?
41:42Possibly,
41:43I don't know.
41:43Our one-hour interview
41:46was about to end,
41:48but there was
41:48one final question
41:49to drive at,
41:50the most important one.
41:52Rachel Wade
41:53can't have it
41:54both ways.
41:55Would she still
41:55insist,
41:56as she has
41:57for the last 16 years,
41:58that the killing
41:59was in self-defense,
42:00or was it murder?
42:05You got 27 years.
42:07Yes.
42:07Right?
42:08Could have gotten life.
42:09Yes.
42:11Have you accepted
42:12your sentence now?
42:14I have.
42:15That wasn't always
42:16the case?
42:17No,
42:17in the beginning
42:18I rebelled.
42:18I was very upset.
42:20You filed appeals.
42:21Yes.
42:21They were denied.
42:23You did a fair amount
42:24of blame shifting
42:25over time.
42:26Yes.
42:27Right?
42:27You realize that?
42:28Yes.
42:28Blamed the victim,
42:30putting you in this position,
42:31blamed Josh.
42:33You blamed the police
42:34at one point.
42:35You said they never
42:35do anything.
42:37You even blamed
42:38your own attorney
42:39in motions
42:40for ineffective counsel.
42:42Yes.
42:43You said at the time
42:45you were truly remorseful.
42:47Is that true?
42:48Um, yes.
42:51I think once it all sank in.
42:54Sorry.
42:56It's okay.
42:57Once it all sank in,
42:58the reality hit
42:59that I killed somebody.
43:00Yes.
43:01Remorse requires
43:08that you accept
43:09responsibility
43:10for the wrong
43:11that you did,
43:13murdering Sarah.
43:14Yes.
43:15Do you accept
43:15that you murdered Sarah?
43:17Yes.
43:19In one word,
43:20for the first time,
43:21Wade issues
43:22a long-delayed confession.
43:24At the sentencing hearing,
43:28Sarah's father,
43:29Charlie Litterman,
43:30who has since passed away,
43:32would give an emotional
43:32impact statement,
43:34bringing the courtroom
43:34to tears.
43:36It was a fitting tribute
43:37to a young woman
43:38taken too soon
43:39for no good reason.
43:41My child was stabbed
43:42to death by Rachel Wade.
43:44She was only 18 years old.
43:47I will never hold her.
43:49I will never get
43:50to see her get married.
43:51Never hear her laugh
43:53at my dumb jokes.
43:54Never drive around
43:55with me in a cab
43:56like she did
43:56when she was a little girl.
43:59It's a special way
44:00only a father and daughter
44:01could relate and bond.
44:04I will only be able
44:06to hear her voice
44:06by calling her phone
44:08and hear her say,
44:09Hey, it's Sarah.
44:11Leave me a message
44:12and I'll call you back.
44:14Why?
44:15Because Rachel chose
44:16to bring a knife.
44:18She wouldn't fight fair.
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