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01:29Do people call you doctor?
01:31Yeah, they do actually.
01:32Is that good?
01:32It's nice to be called doctor and not having a look at a rash.
01:34Sure.
01:36Our experts are joined tonight by an actor, broadcaster and co-creator of the mega hit
01:41podcast The Imperfects.
01:43It's Ryan Shelton.
01:45Thank you.
01:49Pleasure to be here.
01:50Ryan, The Imperfects is so good at getting people to open up.
01:54Have you ever considered maybe moonlighting as a detective?
01:57Uh, yeah.
01:58Yeah, I do, but I can't tell anyone.
02:02So I am a secret detective.
02:04It's a lonely life.
02:05It is, yeah.
02:06I would know, because I am one.
02:09And our second guest panellist is a comedian, actor and improviser, so she's very comfortable
02:13inventing stories in front of strangers.
02:15It's Susie Youssef.
02:17Hello.
02:23Susie, have you ever had to talk your way out of something?
02:26Oh, absolutely not.
02:28Never.
02:29No.
02:30Do you know a little bit about crime?
02:31I mean, culturally, obviously I do, but, uh...
02:34Yeah, I know a bit about crime.
02:37Alibi is Latin for elsewhere, which you would know if you went to one of those fancy schools
02:41that still teach Latin.
02:43It's taught in the same class as carpe diem, quid pro quo and that's amore.
02:47In the criminal justice system, there are two kinds of alibi.
02:52First, the gold standard, a physical alibi, which means your whereabouts are confirmed by
02:57a piece of evidence like CCTV, phone data or a 3am pizza delivery receipt that proves where
03:04you were and that you're going through some stuff.
03:06The second is known as a witness alibi, literally meaning a witness can provide testimony for
03:13you and your whereabouts, which sounds comforting until that person forgets, or they change their
03:18mind, or they decide they'd rather have a prison pen pal.
03:21Danielle, how important are alibis when investigating a crime?
03:26Oh, very important.
03:27I mean, alibis can be a get-out-of-jail-free card if you're accused of a crime, but essentially
03:33they're just claims.
03:35They're claims that people make that have to be validated and verified.
03:39We've all watched a lot of drama on TV, a lot of criminal drama.
03:43What actually happens when police investigate?
03:46Yeah, so early in the investigation process, the lead investigator will look at the preliminary
03:50evidence and they'll lead the collection of that, and then they'll form a working hypothesis
03:54about what actually happened here and identify key persons of interest that sort of fit with
03:58that hypothesis.
03:59So, for example, in Australia, women are most likely to be murdered by a current or former
04:04intimate partner.
04:06So, if a woman's murdered, all of the people, men that fall into that category, almost automatically
04:11become persons of interest.
04:13Those that don't have a rock-solid alibi, they're still in the mix to be a possible suspect.
04:17You mentioned a rock-solid alibi.
04:19What does that look like?
04:20Oh, you really need to have multiple pieces of corroborating evidence.
04:25It's really difficult to establish a rock-solid alibi.
04:28Much more difficult than you'd imagine.
04:30Ryan, Susie, have you ever had to use an alibi?
04:33I mean, it's kind of weird.
04:34Like, it's sort of occurred to me since being here that this would be the perfect time for
04:40one of us to be accused of a crime.
04:41Yeah.
04:42Like, tonight.
04:42What?
04:43Imagine that.
04:43Imagine then being able to go like, I was...
04:46You're not going to believe this.
04:47I was filming a show about alibis.
04:52There is a famous Yusuf family story about a preloaded alibi.
04:56My dad, Louis Yusuf.
04:581969, he is in year 12.
05:00And this kid, Vincent, comes up to him, who's a bit of a troublemaker at school.
05:03And he's like, I'm having a party in August.
05:05So, this is the beginning of the year.
05:06End of January.
05:07Beginning of Feb.
05:07And he goes, I'm having a party in August.
05:09Do you think you can come?
05:11And my dad said, I'm so sorry.
05:13What day was it?
05:14And he said, oh, it's the 7th of August.
05:16And he goes, I actually have a family funeral that day.
05:21Wow.
05:22Let's take a deeper look at the case of Juan Catalan, who, despite having a physical and
05:27witness alibi, became the prime suspect in a 2003 murder case because of an identikit
05:33picture, and also because he was the brother of a recently convicted felon.
05:37Being related to Mario was enough for Juan to be the prime suspect in Martha's murder.
05:43Their only eyewitness helped them to create an identikit picture, but his only description
05:48was of a Latino male with facial hair.
05:52Unfortunately for Juan, his only crime was having facial hair.
05:56Same Juan, same.
05:58But Juan knew where he was at the time of the murder.
06:01He was at a baseball game with his young daughter and cousin Miguel.
06:05When it came to Juan's alibi, the ticket he used wasn't accepted as proof.
06:09His cousin Miguel was seen as a biased witness, and his defence was quickly running out of
06:13ways to prove he was there.
06:15So Juan's lawyers combed through hours of stadium footage.
06:19In a wildly fortunate twist, a film crew from HBO's Curb Your Enthusiasm was filming
06:24at the stadium that day.
06:26And in a TV miracle, they found Juan captured in the raw footage, walking slowly into frame
06:31with his daughter, and straight into comedian Larry David's shot.
06:35This piece of vision became a critical piece of evidence, helping to prove his alibi.
06:39And who says TV doesn't change lives?
06:42David, I'll give it a round of applause.
06:44David, what does this case teach us about alibis?
06:53Probably the main thing it teaches us is that it's really hard to prove an alibi.
06:57So he was really fortunate that that video miraculously appeared, because what that did
07:01is it actually proved that he was there at the game.
07:04Unfortunately for him, it was time stamped.
07:06And he technically had enough time to get, from the time that video was taken, to get
07:11to the murder scene, commit the murder, and go back.
07:14What sealed it though, was that 20 minutes before the murder, his girlfriend actually
07:19rang him.
07:21And he answered the call, and the call he answered pinged off a tower at the stadium.
07:26So what that proved is that he was at the stadium 20 minutes before the murder, and therefore
07:29didn't have time to get there and actually commit that murder.
07:32So what you're saying, David, is his girlfriend is the hero of the story, and women come through
07:37for men again, but we hope that we hope that we hope that we hope that we hope that we hope
07:41It probably also, probably also shows it should always answer your girlfriend's phone calls.
07:46Yeah.
07:47What's strange though is that Juan's cousin and his daughter both testified that they were
07:51at the game with him.
07:53Why weren't they believed?
07:55Witness alibis can be hugely problematic for investigators and for prosecutors, especially
08:01when they are not independent of the suspect.
08:04I think one of the critical things with kids as well is that children are easily coached,
08:09they're very impressionable, so there was also the risk that he could have coached her
08:14to say what he wanted her to say in terms of verifying his alibi.
08:17As far as going forward, good advice then for people generally is to have no family or
08:22friends, so if something bad happens, you can guarantee that your alibi will not be a
08:26family member.
08:28Is the big kind of lesson like, don't murder?
08:31That should be the number one lesson.
08:35Number one lesson.
08:36What would make an alibi witness unreliable?
08:39Oh, so many things.
08:41If they have a criminal history, a history of drug habits, change their stories beforehand.
08:47Even little inconsistencies in a story can really impact the way that a witness's statement
08:53is viewed.
08:53Juan had this really solid alibi.
08:56Why did the police continue to pursue the case?
08:58So it was a case pretty much of tunnel vision.
09:00So it comes back to that working hypothesis that I was talking about earlier.
09:03You did mention that earlier and I just wanted to say, is working hypothesis and tunnel vision
09:08also code for racial profiling?
09:12Not necessarily, no.
09:14But sometimes maybe?
09:16Potentially.
09:16Okay.
09:17Potentially.
09:17Interesting.
09:17So in this particular case, he's Latino.
09:22But one of the police officers was also Latino.
09:24What happened was that the police had formed this really early stage working hypothesis that
09:28he was guilty.
09:29And the reason is that the murder victim had given evidence against Juan's brother in court.
09:34So their working hypothesis was that Juan had killed her in revenge for giving evidence
09:39against his brother.
09:40At what point though, because the prosecuting lawyer in that case, does she get to a point
09:46where she's like, ah, I don't think, I don't think he's guilty.
09:49Does she then have to keep fighting to prosecute him even though she in herself believes that
09:55maybe he's probably not guilty?
09:56Well, I think she probably had the option to go back to the police and say, hey, I'm not
10:00satisfied here.
10:01Does that happen?
10:01It does sometimes.
10:03It does sometimes.
10:04But it also didn't help that Juan had a criminal history.
10:06Speaking of that tunnel vision, there are so many factors that make police themselves
10:12biased in their decision making.
10:14And I think that he had a criminal history.
10:16His brother was part of a gang.
10:18His brother was part of that trial.
10:20He had a mustache.
10:23He had facial hair.
10:24What happened to Juan in the end?
10:26What was the outcome?
10:27Luckily for him, all that sort of corroborating evidence came together and the judge dismissed
10:31the case on the basis that he just clearly wasn't there.
10:34Do you think that the prosecutor would say that he was the Juan who got away?
10:43Come on.
10:44It was good.
10:45Come on.
10:46Do you think someone else would then, after hearing that, say that it was Juan in a million?
10:53Is that possible?
10:54And welcome to pun night.
10:56With all this talk of alibis, we wanted to test just how difficult it is for our panellists
11:02to remember exactly where they were at a specific time and date.
11:06To test this theory, we have secretly asked your partners, Susie and Ryan, to document
11:11where you both were on one day over the last few months.
11:14And this is real.
11:15This isn't a joke.
11:15This really happened to their lives.
11:17Do you mean Juan day?
11:17I think I do.
11:21Just making sure the joke doesn't get cut.
11:22Cool.
11:27Let's see if they can provide us with an alibi in our experiment of the week.
11:38Susie, let's say a crime has been committed.
11:41I did it.
11:41It's just easier.
11:45I just did it.
11:47You are now the prime suspect.
11:48I did not do it.
11:49And you have to remember, to prove your innocence, you have to provide an alibi and remember where
11:54you were.
11:54What's your memory like in general?
11:55Genuinely, my memory is full of movie quotes from the late 90s.
12:00And some of the late 80s.
12:02Wow.
12:03May I have one?
12:03Sure.
12:04Beaches?
12:05No problem.
12:07I'm living how I set out to do.
12:08Remember?
12:09I'm living how you didn't have the courage for.
12:10So don't give me you're not jealous.
12:12You're so jealous you can hardly breathe.
12:17There's more.
12:17There's more what I can think of.
12:19We have captured you and we've captured a time.
12:22The date in question is Tuesday the 5th of August.
12:25Yeah.
12:26The time, 7.25am.
12:28Where might you be, do you think?
12:30I would usually be on a walk.
12:32Lovely.
12:33Or in bed.
12:36Or having breakfast.
12:37Well, some new evidence has come to light.
12:39We now know where you were walking at 7.15am.
12:42Okay.
12:43Oh, you might have walked.
12:44No, I'm not.
12:45No, I'm not.
12:46Because that footwear is not my walking footwear.
12:48No.
12:49I know where that is.
12:50That's on the same block as two of my favourite cafes in Hobart.
12:57Mm-hmm.
12:58Shout out.
12:58I'm sure business is going to go through the roof.
13:05Look, I think I would have been in a cafe.
13:07Well, let's have a look.
13:10That is correct.
13:11You were at a cafe on Criterion Street, Hobart, eating breakfast.
13:18Do you remember what you ate?
13:19I am so boring when it comes to breakfast, so I know exactly what I ate.
13:23I would have had two pieces of gluten-free toast, two fried eggs, and some avocado on the side.
13:29You're absolutely on the money.
13:30That is absolutely right.
13:31Oh my gosh, can I just make a phone call?
13:39I just need to break up with someone.
13:42No, no, I've got to say, I never thought all those photos would come in handy.
13:46Thank you.
13:47That is an excellent alibi, and you are free to go.
13:52Thank you.
13:53Free to go.
13:55Ryan, it's your turn in the hot seat.
13:57I was at an LA Dodgers game.
14:01What's your memory like?
14:04Oh, terrible.
14:05Wow.
14:05Really, really, really bad.
14:07What about your movie quotes?
14:08I know one from Beaches, but other than that...
14:10OK, well, I'll say to you that your date in question is Saturday the 19th of July.
14:16Pfft!
14:18At 8.50am.
14:20Do you remember where you were?
14:21No.
14:22No?
14:23No, well, I know I was...
14:24Well, OK, so I was away.
14:26I was on holiday.
14:2819th of July, I would have been in...
14:3119th of July, I think I was in Vienna.
14:36That's a long way away.
14:37Yeah, but you can just get a plane.
14:39Oh.
14:43Well, this could jog your memory.
14:45It's a video of you just before then.
14:49Oh.
14:49Oh.
14:50OK, I think I know what that is.
14:52I think that was...
14:54If you had to tell me your alibi.
14:55I was sitting on a bench, waiting for the Spanish horses to come out and stretch their
15:00legs.
15:01Um...
15:02Um, but then they didn't.
15:05So we waited for a while and then left.
15:08Well, Ryan, you're absolutely right.
15:11That's what you were doing.
15:12At age 50 that morning, you were in Burgarten Park, Vienna, waiting for the arrival of some
15:18Spanish horses.
15:20I'm so hungry.
15:23I could eat a Spanish horse.
15:29Can you imagine how sick of me my girlfriend is?
15:32Wow, well, you were correct, and that means you are free to go.
15:36Well done.
15:37Thank you.
15:38Thank you.
15:40I think you both did exceptionally well.
15:43What I really love about this is the process you went through.
15:46So most people are creatures of habit, and you just showed that beautifully, because you
15:49did that really simple thing of, OK, at that time of day, normally on a Tuesday, I'd be
15:53walking or I'd be doing this, and it's this process of deduction you got to, and the
15:57fact that you had the same thing for breakfast just makes it really, really easy.
16:00But with you, Ryan, I think what was fascinating was the fact that that's quite memorable, being
16:05away on holiday.
16:06So you almost, you do that really quick process of, OK, those dates, oh, I was away, and then
16:12once Julie sort of gave you a bit more information, you sort of narrowed it down really tightly.
16:16Some people get confused.
16:18Yeah.
16:19David, why are they called Spanish horses?
16:23I'm not a criminologist, I'm not a vet.
16:25I don't know.
16:26I think one of the things that was really cool and interesting with both of you as well
16:31is that you've got cues.
16:33Yeah.
16:34The photos and the videos, and the cues actually help jog your memory.
16:37Yeah.
16:38You wouldn't have done it without me.
16:39Please thank Ryan and Susie.
16:40Thank you.
16:41You might think you've got an airtight alibi, but it's only useful if people actually believe
16:52it.
16:53Studies show that we don't judge alibis based on facts as much as on feels.
16:58We've heard alibis backed by strangers are often seen as more credible than ones from
17:02your own family.
17:04David, why do juries trust strangers more than the people closest to us?
17:08Juries think, rightly or wrongly, that family, friends have a motive to lie, to protect
17:15their family member or their friend, whereas a complete stranger just doesn't have that
17:18motive, and they're probably going to be a lot less inclined to put their own neck on
17:22the line to protect someone they don't know.
17:24I went on a family holiday once, and there was a theft.
17:29Like, we were at a resort, and there was a theft, and they blamed a guy that I was actually
17:34hooking up with, so he was a stranger, and I had to say...
17:38No, sorry, this is dirty dancing.
17:39Sorry.
17:44Sorry.
17:47So one of the things that we know is that juries tend to believe alibis that are full
17:54of salacious details, like a secret rendezvous or embarrassing personal details, they tend
18:00to believe those much more readily than they believe an alibi that's a mundane, regular,
18:06routine activity, like, I was out walking the dog.
18:09Sometimes you can have a rock-solid alibi, but you're just not a believable person.
18:13Take John Killick, a career criminal who was convicted of an armed bank robbery in Adelaide
18:18in 1978, despite the fact that he was on parole and reporting to a police station in New South
18:23Wales at the time of the crime.
18:25This is known as a perfect alibi case.
18:27I signed a borrowed card at 8 o'clock at Chatswood.
18:29When the robbery occurred in Adelaide, the only plane out of there landed at Mascot and turned
18:34off its engines at three minutes past eight.
18:36How am I going to get to Chatswood at eight?
18:38But even with a police-assisted alibi, the jury still found him guilty.
18:42Years later, someone else confessed, and it turned out Killick had been framed.
18:46So your mum's no help with your alibi, and if you're a career criminal, neither is being
18:51supervised by the New South Wales Police.
18:53Of course, not all alibis come with a police escort.
18:57Some are more creatively sourced.
18:59With more, here's Lou Wall.
19:07Have you been a little naughty?
19:09Do you need an alibi?
19:10Well, now you can buy one.
19:12Welcome to the morally dubious, legally contentious, and yet thriving industry of alibi agencies.
19:19Sometimes known as life-or-hire networks, these are real businesses that sell fake stories.
19:24It's like professional gaslighting.
19:26I know so many people who'd be great at this job.
19:30They rose to prominence in the 90s in Japan, and now operate all over the world.
19:35An agency in Germany claims to have more than 2,700 freelance actors there to help you lie
19:42your way out of nearly anything.
19:44Services start at a low, guilt-ridden $300, and include fake doctor's notes, business trips,
19:51meetings, conferences, Zoom calls, wedding invites, fake entire weddings with fake guests,
19:55and menus with meat-free options for your fake vegan cousin.
19:58Fake funeral notices, restaurant bills, hotel bookings, fake calls from your boss,
20:03texts from your mum, fake co-workers, job references, romantic partners for your high
20:07school reunion, and LinkedIn profiles for jobs you've never had in industries that don't
20:10exist.
20:11You can even rent a funeral guest if you want to take a date to your man's funeral without
20:15the baggage.
20:16Too much?
20:17While some clients use these services for affairs or chucking a sickie, false alibis
20:22live in a legal grey area.
20:24To get around that, agencies often slap on disclaimers like, for entertainment purposes
20:29only.
20:30But if you think that is ethically murky, think again.
20:33Because this agency insists, we don't burden ourselves with ethical concerns.
20:37And why would they?
20:39When, and I quote, lying can avoid problems and develop into a form of kindness.
20:44Stunning stuff.
20:45Whoever said the truth can set you free is cancelled.
20:48For me at 300 bucks, a well-crafted alibi can get you out of almost anything.
20:53But if anybody asks, you didn't hear this from me.
20:56I was at a dentist appointment in Belgium with my mum, who is dead.
21:01Dumb.
21:05Danielle, are these alibi companies for real?
21:08Because that's freaking me out.
21:09They are definitely for real, and they are shockingly thriving.
21:14I just think that this is so fascinating.
21:16I mean, we know that people lie about their alibis.
21:20We know that people ask other people to lie to corroborate their alibis.
21:24But this is just next level.
21:26Like, these companies are fabricating physical evidence.
21:30They're fabricating digital evidence with the express purpose of developing a false alibi.
21:37God.
21:37For money.
21:38Are they hiring?
21:41But isn't lying about an alibi illegal, David?
21:45It certainly can be.
21:46So if you provide an alibi under oath, and it's knowingly false, that's perjury.
21:51So we see this a little bit with traffic infringement notices, like the camera detected ones, where you can nominate someone else as the driver.
21:56We probably all know someone who's taken the points and paid the fine for someone else, right?
22:01That actually, if you fill out that stat deck, that's actually perjury.
22:05And there's lots of cases that have been publicised in the last little while, including one of a retired federal court judge, who nominated a dead friend as the driver of his car.
22:15Rookie error.
22:17Ultimately spent two years in prison for perjury to get out of a $77 speeding fine.
22:22Do you think they came down a bit harder on him because he'd been a judge?
22:26There's no doubt.
22:26No doubt.
22:27Well, note to self.
22:28Doing something boring like sitting on the couch used to be almost impossible to prove.
22:33But now, thanks to wearable tech like smartwatches, Fitbits and health monitors tracking our every move, our lazy night in can either confirm our alibi or land us in jail.
22:44It looks like you're digging a shallow grave.
22:46Did you want to record this workout?
22:49But hey, go easy on yourself.
22:51Sometimes not hitting 10,000 steps is exactly what proves you weren't fleeing a crime scene.
22:56In 2016, a Wisconsin man was charged with murder.
23:00He claimed he was at home all night, just moving between his bed and his baby's room.
23:05Saying you were home alone with a sleeping baby is pretty weak in terms of alibis.
23:10The baby can't even support her own neck, let alone her dad's story.
23:14Luckily for him, there was one witness with an unimpeachable memory.
23:18We went back and looked at the videos and we had noticed that Mr. Deitchi was wearing his Fitbit the day that we interviewed him at the house.
23:24There was a short amount of steps recorded in the middle of the night, and then after that, there was another period where there was no movement recorded.
23:33There was no way he would have gotten up in the middle of the night, went out into the front yard, committed a brutal murder, drove a couple miles away, and then came back home.
23:42His Fitbit recorded just a handful of steps during the time of the crime.
23:47Danielle, should we be relying on our technology to get us out of a jam?
23:51When you think about the range of devices that most of us use, we use laptops, we use our smart washes, we use our smartphones, etc.
24:00If you think about all of the data points that we can glean off of all of these devices, we can triangulate that data and create a pretty clear picture about what our daily movements and activities are.
24:12So yes, 100%, I think tech can definitely help corroborate our alibis, but the flip side is also true.
24:20Tech can also disprove our alibis.
24:23David, is this kind of information requested by authorities much?
24:26Increasingly, yes. So telecommunications data is one of the very first pieces of information that law enforcement agencies seek in an investigation.
24:36And there's hundreds of thousands of information requests made to telcos every year.
24:40We all assume that we've got mobile phones, we all assume that we've got sort of things that track us, but not everyone does have that.
24:47So if you're one of those people that doesn't have a mobile phone, doesn't have a Fitbit and so on,
24:50when it comes to proving where you were or where you weren't, you might have a bit of a harder case than someone who's got that technology.
24:57Do you think it would ever get to the point where, because all the devices are listening,
25:02that if they heard what sounded like a crime, that they could call the police?
25:07That, you know, it sounded like there was a murder near this watch?
25:10There has actually been cases of this.
25:13Already?
25:14Yeah, yeah, yeah.
25:15Where smart speakers have heard what they think's a crime going on and actually dialled the police.
25:20Yeah.
25:20That's amazing.
25:21Yeah.
25:22Tonight we examine the difference between a good alibi and a bad alibi, but there's a secret third category.
25:28Alibis so bizarre, so wildly plausible, that just saying them out loud makes you look guilty.
25:33It's time for this week's endgame.
25:35Two untruths and an alibi.
25:43We're going to show our panel suspects from real life cases and ask them to guess which alibi they gave the police.
25:50You'll have three options to choose from.
25:52One is the genuine alibi the suspect came up with, and two are fake alibis we came up with.
25:57Ryan and Danielle.
25:59In 2023, a man was pulled over by police and arrested for speeding.
26:04The man said he was innocent because, A, his five-year-old son was at the wheel.
26:09B, his dog was actually the driver.
26:14Or C, his car was driving itself.
26:17Well, my immediate question would be, what breed of dog?
26:23Like a physical thing of the foot being able to reach the pedal.
26:25Which makes me think that the dog is maybe out of play for that reason.
26:31But then with the son, that's still an illegal act.
26:34Yeah, that's right.
26:35That's a good point.
26:36So it's actually a terrible...
26:37So it's a terrible alibi.
26:38So we can eliminate that one.
26:39So by process of elimination, we will go with C.
26:42We're locking in C, Julia.
26:44Excellent.
26:45The correct answer is B, his dog was actually...
26:47Well, because, crucial part of information, it was in America.
26:56The man tried to swap places with his dog,
26:59who was beside him in the passenger seat before running away from the vehicle.
27:04Don't worry, the dog wasn't speeding,
27:06but was found guilty on one count of being a very bad boy.
27:11David, Susie.
27:12In 2006, Stephen Jackett was on trial for robbing a convenience store,
27:16but he maintained that he was innocent because
27:19A, he was out to dinner with his dad
27:21while his twin brother committed the crime,
27:24B, he was stuck in a public restroom for hours with food poisoning,
27:28or C, he was busy robbing another store on the other side of town.
27:32I'm sus on C, because that's a crime also.
27:37Can I tell you, some offenders aren't real bright.
27:39Years ago when I worked in court,
27:40there was a guy who reported his backpack stolen,
27:43but it was full of weed.
27:44So then she had some possession of weed.
27:47Like, not to show off, but I am a sufferer of IBS.
27:50I can empathise with B.
27:52Let's run with B, because...
27:55OK.
27:55I'm going to sympathise with your...
27:57With my situation.
27:57...situation.
27:58Thank you so much.
27:59IBS is a real issue.
28:01And we should be talking about it more.
28:03Thank you, David.
28:03I'm serious.
28:04I get it.
28:05Oh, my God.
28:06Look how I bond over this.
28:08This is lovely, isn't it?
28:09Yeah, I think B.
28:10That's lovely.
28:11I love that you've got a bond, but you're wrong.
28:14The correct answer is A.
28:16Stephen claimed his twin brother committed the crime
28:18while Stephen was out to dinner with his dad.
28:21It turns out Stephen doesn't have a twin brother.
28:25And he represented himself in court.
28:29Bless.
28:29Please thank our wonderful guests, Ryan Shelton and Susie Youssef.
28:37And, of course, to our resident experts,
28:39Professor Danielle Raynald and Dr David Bartlett.
28:46This week, we unpicked the tapestries of truth, lies and alibis
28:50at the heart of criminal investigations.
28:53But most importantly, there are literally hundreds of people
28:55in this studio who can prove I was here.
28:58If you're watching this show alone at home
29:01while your Fitbit's on charge, well, good luck in court.
29:04I'm Julie Zamiro.
29:05Good night.
29:05Thank you.
29:05Thank you.
29:06Thank you.
29:06Thank you.
29:07Thank you.
29:08Thank you.
29:11Thank you.
29:13Thank you.
29:15Thank you.
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