- 3 months ago
What if getting fired isn’t the end. What if it’s the beginning? Laura Brown and Kristina O’Neill join Dan to talk about their mission to take the shame out of the F word. In their new book All the Cool Girls Get Fired, they share stories from powerhouses like Oprah Winfrey and Carol Burnett about the times they got fired, what they learned, and how those pink slips turned into rocket fuel for their next big moves.
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00:00One thing we've realized through this is I think that shock is an armor.
00:04It had me get on with my team right away and go, you know what?
00:07Your worth doesn't disappear because your job did.
00:09The shock of it was like, for me, led to like ownership.
00:12I just wanted everything in one place.
00:14When you're as discombobulated as you are after you've been fired,
00:18to not have things made easy for you, you know, it just adds unnecessary layers.
00:23It's gotten a lot worse out there.
00:25And so, you know, the hope is that this book will make it a lot better for people
00:30who are entering into that sort of uncertain period that we went through.
00:38Hey, I'm Dan Bova, writer and editor at entrepreneur.com,
00:41and welcome to How Success Happens,
00:44the show where I get to talk to people who have done extraordinary things
00:47and sometimes yield great results
00:50and sometimes get the rug pulled right out from under their feet.
00:54Today's guests are Laura Brown,
00:57who was the editor-in-chief of InStyle magazine until she wasn't,
01:03and Christina O'Neill, who was editor-in-chief of WSJ magazine
01:09until she, quote-unquote, stepped down in 2023.
01:14So for those listening, I'm making some air quotes here
01:17because as they put it very bluntly in their incredible book,
01:21All the Cool Girls Get Fired, they were, quote, shit-canned.
01:26Those are their words, not mine.
01:28Hey, make them your words, baby.
01:30So they both moved on to do some incredible things,
01:33which we will get to,
01:34but they wrote this awesome book
01:37that will help us all get through stressful times
01:40should we experience them
01:41and embrace the unexpected benefits
01:43that come with a career setback.
01:45So welcome, Laura and Christina.
01:48That was dazzling.
01:51I like it.
01:52We're like, can we have both the great things
01:54and also the rug pulled and also the shit can?
01:57Women, can't we have it all?
01:59That was marvelous.
02:00That's what the book's about, right?
02:02I was promised that in the end, I will have everything.
02:06Yeah, that's right.
02:07You're making that guarantee?
02:08We signed.
02:09Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
02:10We gave you that on a DocuSign earlier.
02:13So, well, what a great treat to talk to both of you.
02:20I am a magazine veteran.
02:23I've lived through my share of ups and downs in that world.
02:27So great to talk to you.
02:29Great to talk to someone who's not creating an AI
02:32that is trying to put me out of a job in a minute.
02:37So that's great.
02:38But let's talk about this book
02:41and why you decided to write it
02:43and all the great things in it.
02:44So it's very timely.
02:47We keep hearing about layoffs, layoffs, layoffs.
02:49Just today, WSJ had a round of layoffs.
02:53What made you want to write this book?
02:55How did the whole thing start?
02:58Well, we got fired.
03:00Ah, right.
03:01So if you really want to go back to the beginning.
03:03Touche.
03:03But the genesis for the book came from actually an Instagram post
03:10that Laura put up not long after I had been fired,
03:15which was about 14 months after she had been fired.
03:18And we went out for a drink.
03:20And on the way to said drink, she said,
03:22you know what we're going to do?
03:23We're going to post an Instagram picture where we look really cute.
03:26And we're going to say all the cool girls get fired.
03:31And we did.
03:33And the response was so instant and overwhelming
03:39that the next day I called her and I said,
03:42this is a book.
03:44Really?
03:44Oh, okay.
03:45So was that instantaneous?
03:46That's cool.
03:47Yeah, it was like ultimate consumer feedback.
03:50No, it was just because we just were so straightforward.
03:56It was very subversive, I guess, you know, in how women approach work.
04:02And I think we'd realized by that post and by the, you know,
04:06the reactions that were coming in,
04:07that we'd cracked open a psychological door, you know.
04:14Oh, wow, they just said, oh, God, oh, legends.
04:16Oh, actually, it sort of happened to me.
04:18And just seeing this sort of, you know,
04:20it's almost like that meme of the woman with all the equations behind her,
04:23like people's brains just going, oh, they've just said this.
04:26And we knew even immediately from that first response
04:30that this had some real value.
04:32And the value was going to lie well beyond the comment section of Instagram
04:35and in this book.
04:37But we also knew that this was the book that we needed at the time.
04:41And for all of our, you know, success and, you know,
04:45the lovely, you know, packet of papers they pushed at us on our way out,
04:49there was so much we didn't know.
04:53We really spent way too much time researching and compiling information
05:00that wasn't just, like, consolidated in one place.
05:04It was super frustrating pinging between, you know, the government websites,
05:08Googling, you know, COBRA, trying to figure out which health care plan.
05:13Did we need a lawyer?
05:15How much, you know, unemployment could we have potentially been, you know,
05:19entitled to?
05:20And, you know, it's state by state in this lovely country we live in.
05:25So, you know, it was just a lot of information, misinformation, et cetera.
05:30And I, you know, I just wanted everything in one place.
05:34Like, you know, when you're as discombobulated as you are
05:38after you've been fired, to not have things made easy for you,
05:43you know, it just adds a necessary layer.
05:46So, you know, this goes back to us wanting to create, you know,
05:50we're magazine editors.
05:51We wanted to create the resource that didn't exist for us.
05:55And, you know, like you said, here we are two years later.
05:58My former workplace is still, you know, going through it.
06:02It's gotten a lot worse out there.
06:04And so, you know, the hope is that this book will make it a lot better
06:08for people who are, you know, entering into that sort of uncertain period
06:12that we went through.
06:13Yeah.
06:14No, that's, I mean, that word, when you, when you first learn that word
06:18Cobra, you're like, what?
06:21And then.
06:22All caps Cobra.
06:23It's not even just Cobra, like the snake.
06:25Yeah.
06:26And we, and we say it's not.
06:27All caps, it's screaming at you.
06:29And it's like, it's not a snake.
06:30We say it's not a snake, but it still bites.
06:32Yes, exactly.
06:35That's, that's great.
06:37So, you know, you write about so many aspects of it.
06:41We'll get into some.
06:42That's my door.
06:43Hold on, Dan.
06:44Okay, no problem.
06:45Oh, she can talk.
06:46Hold on.
06:48Laura has refused herself from this interview.
06:51She wants no part of it.
06:53We're only nine minutes in and she's already exited the.
06:56Sorry, that wasn't even the messenger that I wanted.
07:04So there's going to be another one.
07:04Go on.
07:05Sorry.
07:06My husband had to leave right now.
07:07Anyway, sorry.
07:08No problem.
07:09Hello.
07:11So, all right.
07:12So let's talk about, you know, the book, you, you outline a lot of like very practical
07:19things that everyone should know, which I think is great.
07:22And we'll get into, but maybe, maybe we could start just with that sort of like the, the
07:28mental aspects of it, uh, the, the, the kick in the teeth of it, uh, the numbness you feel when
07:35someone goes, Hey, do you have a sec and pulls you into an office, uh, and you realize that's the
07:40last time you're going to be in that office.
07:42Um, or the, all my, my personal favorite, which actually we've been talking about this a bit, but the all
07:48hands meeting, which actually sounds like a jolly thing.
07:51All hands, all hands meeting.
07:52You're always getting fired.
07:55All hands showing you the door.
07:57Yeah.
07:58Um, can you talk a little bit about like that, uh, that kind of what you've learned speaking
08:05to people, you guys spoke to so many people who have been through similar situations, like
08:09what you've learned about recovering from that kind of shock phase of things, uh, is there
08:16a quick fix or is it just like, you just need some time?
08:20Yeah, you just need to, you know, time heals all, but I gotta say what, you know, I know
08:24we're an amateur psychologist now, but like one thing we've realized through this is,
08:28um, I think that shock is an armor shock in the, in the first instance can actually protect
08:34you.
08:34Um, can actually, it had me get on with my team right away and go, you know what your
08:40worth doesn't disappear because your job did.
08:41And I did all of these, you know, I was so set on like, you know, you own what your experience
08:47don't let these people take it from you, which was very, which is the whole thesis of the
08:50book.
08:50Right.
08:51So the shock of it was like, for me led to like ownership and like, no, no, no, no, F
08:57that, you know what I mean?
08:58This, this happened to me.
08:58And so I think that the shock in the first instance, I mean, I went to a big event the
09:03day after I got fired.
09:03Christina went to an event recently after she got fired too.
09:06And in that sort of phase, it's not the worst actually.
09:09Um, you know, and then some, yeah, and then, then there's a sink in of, oh, my salary ends
09:15there or my health insurance ends there.
09:17And, and I think everyone, and that it's those moments that you, um, you know, it can knock
09:22you off your feet a little bit or your habit is broken.
09:24The place you used to go to the bar you used to go to, it's like a breakup, you know what
09:27I mean?
09:28And a lot of the things you attach to in your job.
09:30I never knew how much I'd miss a shitty Midtown sandwich.
09:33Exactly.
09:34But they're all rituals that you attach to whether or not you really did enjoy them.
09:40You know what I mean?
09:41So when you sort of, uh, take a beat to do that.
09:43So I think that, yeah, once the shock has dissipated, you can, and we say this wallow
09:48a bit, it's all right.
09:49Don't wallow forever, like rest, but don't retreat.
09:53You know what I mean?
09:53You can have the wine and the cookie and the chips and the all in, you know, as many snacks
09:58as possible in every, in every hand.
10:00Absolutely do that.
10:01Absolutely indulge that, but don't do it forever.
10:04And I think it's like having, you know, um, a pilot light on or a periscope up when you're
10:09on the couch, you know, you'll be, you will be any industry, um, you're in, especially
10:14if you've admitted that you've been fired, people will reach out to you if you've done
10:18good work and you've been a nice person.
10:20So calibrate yourself, go back to those people, you know, and be going to listen to your own
10:25rhythms.
10:26Some people get completely let out.
10:28Some people, and I hope the hope of this book is that they don't get completely let out
10:31anymore.
10:31You know, um, but listen to yourself and communicate in a way that gives you, gives
10:36you comfort and go and take one, have one coffee.
10:39And if that's enough for the week and that's too much, do that.
10:43You know, again, look, and this also depends on your financial situation, breaking news.
10:46Some people got to take a job right away.
10:47And, but you know, in any, um, sphere of life, you know, you listen to yourself and what you
10:53can, um, manage to get back into the game.
10:56And if you feel that you're forcing things and you don't feel comfortable, listen to that
10:59too.
11:00Yeah.
11:01I think, you know, one of the things that I, uh, really connected with is just that whole,
11:05that, that sense of identity that you have with your job, particularly if you've been there
11:10for a long time, you sort of like, think of yourself as part of this brand.
11:13And then it's also like this sort of kick in the teeth, like, oh, this thing isn't going
11:18to blow up without me.
11:19Like it did, like, it's not me, you know?
11:23Uh, so that's a little bit of, uh, a mental reckoning that you need to do.
11:27I think I gotta say we were fortunate in the extremely challenged magazine or some would
11:32say dying in some places.
11:33Like I, it's like, I think, you know, um, yes, one always attacks their value to some,
11:38to some degree, but at least, I think at least for me personally, it was like things
11:42were, I'd went going through three different owners, you know, like it was, it was like,
11:45I thankfully knew that I was bringing as much to the magazine as it brought to me.
11:50And that was a real insurance, but that also comes from, like I was saying earlier, knowing
11:55what you bring and reminding yourself of your, you know, we're going on 30 years of experience
12:00in, in what we do.
12:01And that always comes with us in whatever role, you know, we've been in.
12:06I think that's very, um, that's very helpful, but Christina was, you know, in some way where
12:09she would have, would have stayed forever.
12:13Yeah, for sure.
12:14I didn't see it coming.
12:15Um, and so what did you, what did you find?
12:19So you, you, you know, you go through this shock phase and now you start to come out of
12:25it a little bit.
12:26What did you find or what do you advise people?
12:28Like what's a good sort of like picking yourself back up first step?
12:33What, what, what have you found to be a good first step?
12:39Yeah.
12:40I mean, we advise doing the toe dip, you know, sort of starting small, starting maybe with
12:48things that are slightly more familiar before you, um, you know, sort of run to the things
12:55that are unknown.
12:56But I was surprised by how many non, um, sort of like linear things came my way.
13:05Like, you know, people reaching out from industries that I would have never thought I, I would, um, have made sense in.
13:12And that was an interesting kind of layer to it all.
13:16And those were conversations that I sort of had after talking to the sort of, you know, the, the obvious like connections, um, you know, and, and in the end, I, I now work at Sotheby's.
13:29I work for an auction house and I think that, um, just shows how transferable some skills are and, you know, seeing around a corner that, you know, hadn't been there, you know, a couple months before.
13:42And now suddenly I'm like, oh, right.
13:45Like, yeah, this, there are parallel things to what I did in my old job that I can bring to this new job.
13:53Um, and so that was really, you know, reassuring, but I think to get back out there, you know, you do have to start.
13:59Start small and, and, you know, maybe start with having conversations.
14:02You have to be able to talk about it.
14:04And that takes some conditioning.
14:05You know, you don't want every meeting to be, you know, you don't want to burst into tears or you don't want to come off bitter.
14:10You know, there's a lot of processing that you have to do.
14:13You know what I mean?
14:15Hi guys.
14:17But seriously, like it is triggering talking about it.
14:22And I think, um, you know, that's why we're so blunt about.
14:29Calling it what it is.
14:30Yeah.
14:30Say you've been fired.
14:32Um, you know, you weren't embezzling, like your industry's changing.
14:35Like, you know, it's so much.
14:40Laura keeps talking about this mysterious delivery.
14:44That's.
14:45Can I actually, can I actually, I, it's literally a shopping bag full of drugs.
14:51She's actually pivoted to drug lording.
14:53I mean, there's money in that guys.
14:55No, um, I actually, no, can I share a favorite bit of advice and just that sort of getting yourself back into the game thing.
15:00One of the best bits of advice, cause we interviewed a whole bunch of experts, really tactical, you know, experts in their fields.
15:05And when it came to like, um, going back into the workforce and interviewing, um, one of them said, so say if there's like three jobs, like you're going for, and one of them is your dream.
15:16Right.
15:16And, and the other two are fine.
15:18If you have any ability to control this schedule, go for the fine before the dream.
15:25So you can sort of get your, get, again, it's like you're putting your toe in a hot bath, right?
15:29Right.
15:29You haven't, you haven't done this for a while.
15:30So you can kind of get your mojo a bit and practice a little bit before the dream one.
15:34So I thought that was so, um, because you've been smacked on the head by an anvil, you know what I mean?
15:39That's what happens.
15:40It's happening when your confidence is rocked.
15:42Yeah.
15:42So you need to get it back through sort of practice and engagement and taking meetings.
15:46And then when you go for those interviews that you can stand up a little bit taller.
15:49That's great.
15:50And, and so, as you mentioned just there, I mean, you talked to Oprah, uh, Jamie Lee, Oprah Winfrey, sorry.
15:57Oprah Winfrey.
15:59No, no, no, no, not her, not, not the, um, more famous Oprah Smith.
16:04Yeah.
16:04Yeah.
16:05Uh, Jamie Lee Curtis, Katie Couric, Lisa Kudrow, Carol Burnett.
16:12Uh, that's, that's just amazing in itself, but, uh, who all told you these stories about things that didn't go their way.
16:20And how they, uh, got through it.
16:22So first of all, like, is it easy to get people to tell these sort of like, not very fun stories?
16:30No, they're both shaking their heads.
16:32Um, no, I think that, you know, we had to sort of poke about, you know, um, to find this.
16:38Summer was part of their legend in a way, but it hadn't been expanded on that.
16:42Carol Burnett got fired from a theater and then 25 years later, put her Hollywood star in front of it.
16:46Like that was sort of known.
16:48We knew a bit about Oprah.
16:49Like, hang on, wasn't she fired?
16:50But we had to sort of dig into a wiki and a couple of other things to find that.
16:54And others were sort of, um, word of mouth.
16:56Tarana is a friend of mine because we sit on the Me Too board together.
16:59And she was like, oh no, I was fired.
17:00I was fired from this arts organization in, in Philly.
17:03So we had a bit, we had the Missonis, Angela and Margarita Missoni literally said,
17:07hey, we were fired in the comments section of like our first post.
17:11So there was some like flagrant, like actually, yeah, honey, that happened to me and others
17:16where we sort of had to sort of get at.
17:17And there were a good amount of women who we approached, who we knew had been fired that
17:22passed and didn't want to admit it.
17:24So we certainly hope in maybe this book coming out, they'll be like, yeah, okay.
17:27Yeah, I was, you know, why carry it?
17:31Were, were, were any of their stories?
17:34Did, did any of them really just like shake you?
17:37Did, were any of them like really surprising?
17:40I mean, the Carol Burnett one is, it's, it's funny.
17:43I mean, she's a funny person.
17:45It wasn't funny for her getting fired, but she didn't want to let someone into a movie
17:49before the surprise ending of a Hitchcock movie got, was coming out and she got fired.
17:53But, uh, you know, did any of those stories really stick with you?
17:58Yeah.
17:59Um, Lindsay Colas, who's the sports agent tells about, um, she represents athletes.
18:07A lot of, uh, female athletes, um, in, you know, all, all sports, but she was the agent
18:13of Brittany Griner who was, you know, detained in Russia and she mounted a, you know, very,
18:19um, you know, incredible sort of both kind of international political campaign, but also
18:27a media campaign to keep her, you know, front of mind and, and her story out there.
18:31And so obviously that was, you know, time consuming.
18:34Um, and she had other clients and the story that really struck me was the day after Brittany
18:39came home, another client called her and she assumed that she was calling to say, Hey,
18:47amazing job.
18:48Congratulations.
18:49And instead the client said, I don't feel like you've been paying enough attention to
18:53me, I'm going to part ways.
18:56Whoa.
18:56And that to me, I'm like, don't you want the agent who like can get you out of jail?
19:01Yeah.
19:02Um, holy cow.
19:04Yeah.
19:05But you know, that's the gratitude.
19:07Yeah.
19:07The attitude of gratitude.
19:09Wow.
19:09That was, that was a real stunner.
19:11Um, I thought Lisa Kudrow's story just showed, um, how much courage it takes to come back
19:19from getting fired, especially as an actor.
19:21And we do speak to a few actresses, like you said, Carol and Jamie Lee.
19:26Um, and in Lisa Kudrow's case, she was fired by James Burroughs, who was the showrunner of
19:33Frasier.
19:34She had been cast.
19:35They were doing a table read.
19:36It was all happening.
19:37And he felt like she was just not the part and that it, it wasn't gelling.
19:43So she was fired.
19:44And then not long after she got the call to come audition for friends and guess who was
19:51doing the casting?
19:52Well, it was Jimmy Burroughs again.
19:54So it was the same guy who fired her, who hired her.
19:57And I think that just sort of shows you can't go scorched earth.
20:00You can't, you know, it is circumstantial in almost every case.
20:05Um, it's somehow beyond you.
20:07Yeah.
20:08And there's fate.
20:09So often fate is involved.
20:10And no, I think that it's quite extraordinary of people like for me, I mean, I love Carol's
20:15because of the old fashionedness of Carol's.
20:18I love that.
20:18It was like, what made you feel better during the dark times?
20:20And she was like, I used to watch these, you know, Judy Garland and, and Mickey Rooney,
20:25um, uh, movies.
20:27And they, you know, when, when, when the, when the chips were down, they just put on a show
20:31and it was just so sweet and kind of pure and incredible.
20:35And secondly, um, Tarana Burke, um, founder of Me Too, she was working at this arts organization
20:40in Philly.
20:41She lost her job and that job, and she lost, you know, she was freaked out for a year.
20:46She was, you know, didn't have money.
20:47She ended up getting a lifeline from Ava DuVernay, um, who was, who hired her to consult on, um,
20:55hang on, God, Selma, sorry.
20:57But that break and that money allowed her to focus on Me Too and Me Too wouldn't exist
21:02if Tarana wasn't fired.
21:04One of the things that really stuck with me was the total recall every single woman we
21:10interviewed had about the moment she was fired.
21:12So in some of these instances, like Carol Burnett, you know, she was a young lass and Oprah was
21:18over 50 years ago.
21:20And these are things that you would think might have sort of softened with time.
21:27And almost every single woman could put herself back in the room where it happened.
21:32Um, and that was so revealing because as much as time does heal all, um, you know, this,
21:40it is a, it is a shocking, you know, devastating moment for so many people.
21:45And even if, you know, you can say with absolute certainty that it is, you know, the best thing
21:51that ever happened to you and it does get you to the other side, um, you know, it, it is
21:56a moment in your life when, you know, you're completely knocked off balance.
22:02Right.
22:02And, and I think, you know, I think most of us know because you, you go through it more
22:09than once and you, you understand that almost every single time something better is waiting
22:16for you.
22:17Um, you know, I got laid off from one job and I went to my next one and that's where
22:21I met my wife, you know, like, you know, so there's stuff like that.
22:25Um, so there is, you don't want to hear it at the time.
22:28Yeah.
22:29Yeah.
22:29It's going to be the best thing.
22:30It's so annoying to say that.
22:33Just say that the show is Laura Brown punching someone.
22:35Um, but yeah, it's, you don't want to hear it, but they're quite often, right?
22:40Yeah, no, it's true.
22:41And you know, uh, a friend who was unemployed for, for a while and he'd be walking around
22:46town and she's like, oh, this sucks.
22:48It sucks.
22:48And then he got a job and then a week later he's like, oh God, I wish I could just like walk
22:54around town again, you know, like you wish you could appreciate that time you have.
22:58Whatever in between time you do have.
23:00And, you know, people have different amounts of it and yeah, breaking news.
23:05It's, if you have more resources, you can have more time.
23:08Um, but even like whatever, whatever that is.
23:11Yeah.
23:11You don't, when you're in the sort of panic, it's, it's hard to, um, appreciate it.
23:15But if you know, if you're, if you're calibrated and set up in some way to, to, to have some
23:20time, like what a, what a blessing that can be.
23:22So let's talk about your, uh, I will, you mentioned that you've done some pretty cool
23:27stuff after these, uh, not so cool moments.
23:31Uh, and, and you went in sort of different paths.
23:34Like Laura, you started your own thing, Christina, you launched, did you launch the magazine or
23:40you're the editor in chief of the magazine, uh, Sotheby's.
23:44I relaunched it.
23:45You relaunched it.
23:46Yeah.
23:46So you, you, uh, went to another kind of established brand and Laura, you tried, you started your
23:53own thing.
23:54So what, what was some of the decision making that went into that?
23:58Um, for me, I was like, oh my God, I was like Scarlett O'Hara, but like, uh, as God
24:02as my witness, I'll never work for anybody again.
24:05Like, I sort of actually knew that while my corset was being tight.
24:08No, um, I, I knew that in 2020 kind of, cause I'd registered my own business then weirdly
24:14I'd like, I'd gone on legal zoom and gotten my little LLC.
24:19And then I'd set up my, I'd gone on go daddy and set up my email.
24:23And, and I, I, I, I'd known that I was a bit tired of, we went through three different
24:27owners at InStyle as well.
24:28And I was just very tired of some of the, um, the vacillations of, of our business and,
24:34um, and having my day, my mood, my life controlled by a bunch of like rovalords, you know what
24:39I mean?
24:39So like, that was, I just sort of had enough of that.
24:42So I knew I was thinking of going to work for myself.
24:45Um, I'm taking my leave at the end of the year, did not think we're all going to get
24:48canned, you know, that February.
24:50Um, so, so the knowledge of that was sort of all I really had at the time.
24:55And then I was in a different situation cause I was getting married two months later.
24:59So I was like, it was a lovely distraction, but it was also like, I don't need money after
25:03wedding, where is, you know?
25:04Um, so, um, but I sort of sat with it for a bit and I knew that I had enough kind of LB
25:10juice as I call it, you know, to, to do that.
25:12And then I wait, and then people would start to call me.
25:14It could be a fashion brand, could be a nonprofit.
25:16I run a council now for, for red, um, and all these sort of diverse things that, um, called
25:23me because of who I was and what I brought and all the experience that I brought through
25:28sort of fashion and entertainment, uh, into their worlds.
25:31And it just has become, um, so much more interesting and, and, and rewarding to get out of this sort
25:37of silo, which was still, um, you know, we're still very much in and Christina's very much
25:40in, but like, um, and, and, and use those skills to, to work within, uh, the bigger, the bigger,
25:47wider world.
25:47Um, I, I really enjoyed that, which I guess is funny.
25:50Um, it is entrepreneurial and, and then oddly enough, this book and, uh, Christina and I
25:56were, you know, regular employees who had an employer.
25:59We always had jobs this whole time and Christina still does, but this is the most entrepreneurial
26:03thing either one of us have ever done.
26:05And, um, and it's been hugely rewarding and hopefully is going to, you know, um, take on
26:10another life of its own.
26:11So it's been, it's taken up a lot of my time too.
26:14And Christina's.
26:15And she's got a job.
26:16She got a job.
26:16Yeah.
26:17So Christina, how did you, uh, you know, uh, work, work the book into, you know, the
26:23not so easy task of relaunching a magazine?
26:27Yeah.
26:28Well, the good news was we had sold the book, um, before I took the job at Sotheby's, before
26:35I started the job at Sotheby's.
26:37Um, so a lot of that like groundwork had been done and then Laura and I worked in a way where,
26:45you know, it was a lot of nights and weekends took some vacation where we were able to just
26:50sort of like carve out time sitting at a kitchen table, you know, just sort of banging through
26:56it.
26:57Um, and I think the writing process, you know, is so solitary and you are able to, you know,
27:08kind of do that in, in odd hours.
27:10Um, so, you know, that's, that's the sort of like luxury of putting a book together.
27:16Um, so you touch on a, uh, something I want to ask, which is, uh, time and energy.
27:21So something that everyone wishes they had more of, um, what do these things, how did
27:28you like, you know, just, uh, expanding on that a little bit, um, you know, the, the,
27:33the kitchen table scenario that everyone is so familiar with, um, how did you, did you
27:40make set times or is it kind of like stealing 10 minutes here and there or a combination of
27:45those things?
27:45And we have different schedules because I didn't have to like, I mean, not that Christina,
27:49she doesn't have to sit in the office from nine to five, five days a week, but she has
27:53an office to go to.
27:54And I, I don't, you know, so I think that, um, the best way to sort of describe how we
27:58did this book was like, I came up with this crazy big Instagram headline, you know what
28:02I mean?
28:02And Christina said, this is a book.
28:03And so it's sort of like, I'm like the, the billboard and Christina was the packager is
28:09the packager.
28:09So, you know, I would sit, sometimes I would have the time to sit at home for six hours and bang
28:14out a chapter while loudly announcing that I was writing a book.
28:17I really thought that was key.
28:18And, um, you know, and then Christina would come in and be like, you know, I think that
28:22this needs some exposition of something here or dah, dah, dah, dah, or like adding, cause
28:26we basically all wrote our own parts.
28:28We interviewed all the women together.
28:30So we'd have to like, that was the biggest sinking of the schedules was like, okay, we're
28:33going to talk to Oprah and Sally Korchek today.
28:36You know what I mean?
28:37So we got, we're having to get that done and we would split all of that up, um, all the
28:41transcribing and stuff.
28:42So it just, but it works like the way we wrote the book is kind of the way we do everything.
28:46Like if one of us is caught up, you know, and there's a bunch of correspondents to get
28:50through the other one, we'll just do it.
28:51And we're not asking the other one, if they think that they think it's okay, you know,
28:54we just, we just trust each other.
28:56So we're always kind of pushing and pulling depending on which way the rubber band's going
29:00basically.
29:02Uh, do you have any recommendations that you seem to have a, a pretty solid partnership, any
29:08recommendations for people to, to have a solid partnership and not, not buttheads?
29:13I mean, I think it's really important to made it a fashion show in September, 2001.
29:17I think that really, really bonds, bonds that go.
29:22If you haven't done that, we were in the trenches together at Harper's Bazaar for eight years,
29:27you know, so we really had a shorthand that we were able to kind of hop into this and just
29:34go.
29:35Um, and I think the fact that basically we sold the book right before Christmas and I started
29:40my new job at Sotheby's in January, um, meant that, you know, there wasn't time to overthink
29:47it to deliver this thing on time.
29:50Like we had to just go.
29:52Um, and you know, I think if you are in a, in a partnership, it is really important.
29:58Um, you know, it's a 50, 50 partnership.
30:00We have, um, you know, a little like working, you know, agreement.
30:05Oh yeah.
30:05We made a contract that we haven't even looked at.
30:07Yeah.
30:08But I think it was just important for us to sort of, you know, say, you know, if we're
30:14showing up because there are a lot of layers to this and you know, that no one's gonna let
30:19the other one down.
30:20Yeah.
30:20It's good to be clear on that.
30:22Like, I'm a big fan of removing, removing ambiguity anyway.
30:25Um, but you know, if you are launching a business or a creative endeavor with someone and it
30:30seems sort of like, Oh, we don't need that.
30:32And again, we didn't end up needing it, you know, but the ritual of sort of doing that
30:35thing.
30:35I haven't had to sue her yet.
30:37She's seconds away, seconds away.
30:40I, I, she really hit that yet pretty hard when she said that.
30:43Yeah, I know.
30:44Did you see the panic in my eyes?
30:49Oh, that's fantastic.
30:50Well, let's, um, uh, you guys have had a long week and I hope you're ready for this,
30:55but this is the speed round.
30:57Ooh.
30:58So.
30:59I remember speed also and time.
31:00What was the other one?
31:01Energy.
31:01Time, energy, and speed.
31:03Whoa.
31:04That's right.
31:05That's, that's a concept.
31:06Yes.
31:06Go.
31:07So who's, who's the better, who's the, who's better at the keyboard?
31:10Who's the faster typer?
31:11Laura.
31:12Me.
31:13Oh yeah.
31:14I am quick, aren't I?
31:15I'm like a bit of a freak machine.
31:17Yeah.
31:17Oh, I'm like the queen of overthinking it.
31:19Uh, pick a magazine and a timeframe to instantly install yourself as editor in chief.
31:27Ooh.
31:28Oh, Harper's Bazaar 19.
31:32Liz Tilbarra, Sarah.
31:33I don't know the exact dates, but late nineties.
31:37Yeah.
31:37I'd go.
31:38Cause she's already taken Bazaar.
31:39I'll take Vogue.
31:40Cause I'm humble.
31:41Okay.
31:42Move over Anna.
31:44Um, all right.
31:45She won't.
31:46God love her.
31:48All right.
31:48I'm going to give you, uh, the power to lay off one trend in life or on social media permanently.
31:56Not lay off fire.
32:00Fire.
32:00I mean, I would say let's fire the fact that people don't call it getting fired.
32:05Right.
32:06I mean, I think what we were really trying to do with this book is change the conversation
32:11and, you know, create a baseline where the sooner women can identify what happened to them
32:18and stop like lying and carrying the shame and all the bullshit that, you know, could come
32:25with it if you let it.
32:27I'd love to fire that.
32:29Yeah.
32:29I mean, that's the, I would say yes in the, in the grand scheme, but I think in the more
32:32petty minor scheme of social media, I would say, um, just the idea of influencers who
32:38don't actually represent anything, any school of thought, belief, or something that is made.
32:43It's just like, oh, this person's paying me.
32:45I'm wearing this.
32:46I'm doing this.
32:46And it's always like, who are you?
32:47So I would like to fire that and have people show up as themselves.
32:51And of course, you're still going to be your cutest self or your most well-traveled self,
32:54but still be yourself.
32:56Love it.
32:57Uh, what do you guys do to turn off your brain or can you, is that possible?
33:04Turn off my phone.
33:05Turn off your phone.
33:05Okay.
33:07Um, what do you have?
33:09You'd have a glass of wine and turn off your phone.
33:10Why do you ever turn off your phone?
33:13No, but I try to leave it in another room.
33:15Oh yeah.
33:16You know what I mean?
33:17I will like, I try.
33:19Um, I don't know.
33:20Go to Pilates, have a glass of wine.
33:23At the same time?
33:24Yes.
33:24Yeah.
33:25That's how, that's how skilled she is.
33:27That's how skilled.
33:28Why no Pilates?
33:30Why no Pilates?
33:31Oh my God, there's your, there's your next book.
33:34I would, I would for the next seven months.
33:37Um, I can say I, I, I tend to just flop in front of Stephen Colbert and, uh, and eat
33:42a piece of cheese or have a glass of wine or whatever and just kind of stare at it.
33:45And he just has that way of making your day better and aggregating and giving it that
33:49humor, but you don't have to really think.
33:51That's great.
33:51So it's a bit of zombie, zombie watching, but actually zombie watching smart TV.
33:56There you go.
33:57Watch someone else be smart for a change.
33:58Yeah.
33:59I like that.
33:59Um, all right.
34:01So you've both worked in fashion, which is by definition glamorous.
34:06So you got to tell us one, the last time you were in a place or setting sitting next
34:12to someone where you had like a holy shit, how did I get here moment and name dropping
34:18is required here.
34:20Um, I want to hear about yachts, private jets.
34:24I mean, last time or maybe I know what you're going to say.
34:27We're probably going to say the same thing.
34:29You go first.
34:30Are we going to say the same word at the same time?
34:33I don't know what you're going to say.
34:34I don't have.
34:35I'm going to say Oprah.
34:36Oh, Oprah.
34:36Yeah, of course.
34:37Oh, oh, Oprah.
34:38Sorry.
34:39In fact, that's like, I mean, Oprah, Oprah is like a life, like not to do with.
34:45Yeah.
34:46But this is okay.
34:47This is a through line here.
34:48So we, between, um, I was going to say the three of us, there's two of us in this book.
34:52Um, we've done three stories or covers with Oprah.
34:55I did two and Christina did one over the course of, from 2012 onward to here.
34:59So, um, we'd photographed her for covers, met her, which was already like goals and sat
35:04down and talked to her and everything else.
35:05And then, um, she agreed to be in this book.
35:07So we interviewed her and then we went and did a podcast to her, you know, Versailles
35:11and Montecito home.
35:12And it was just a, a wild culmination of those things where when you're starting out in
35:19fashion or celebrity or whatever it is, and everything to you seems like it's Oz, you
35:24know, and it all has the sheen and the shine and, and, and some of that good amount of
35:28that becomes removed and more, the deeper you get into it, but there's still things obviously
35:31you appreciate, but sort of being able to spend time with Oprah on, like on kind of
35:36a, again, we're not Oprah, but this sort of peer to peer level, like she's interested
35:39in what you've made and she's talking to you about something you've created.
35:43It's not this, that she's showing up to a party you're at.
35:46Um, I think that goes through the whole arc of like, I sat and I met this Oprah one time
35:50and then I met her another time and then I met her in this way, you know, and I think
35:53that that's, was extremely, uh, edifying because we ended up engaging with her as, as adults
35:59who'd created something that she was interested in.
36:02Are her walls, uh, wallpapered in cashmere?
36:06I expect so.
36:07I know we didn't go inside, but the roses are perfect and they smell like the dreams
36:12of a baby.
36:16The dreams of a baby.
36:17Well, I think that's a, that's a pretty good note to end on.
36:20I don't know about it.
36:24Well, this book, the book is, uh, out now is called all the cool girls get fired, which
36:31what an awesome title.
36:33Uh, I mean, it's funny.
36:36It great.
36:37And you instantly understand it.
36:39It's you guys should write a book cause you're, you're good at the words.
36:43That's what I'm saying.
36:46We will, we might do that.
36:47All right.
36:48And so how can people can buy this book obviously everywhere.
36:52How can they kind of keep up with what, what you're doing independently and together?
36:58I mean, Instagram is sort of the hotspot, you know, um, all the cool girls get fired
37:01is our communal book handle.
37:02And then I'm at Laura Brown 99 and Christina is at Christina O'Neill.
37:05Um, but we hybridize and all those things quite often.
37:08Yeah.
37:08Stay tuned for next year where, um, we will, uh, hopefully be kind of, uh, progressing this
37:15platform a little bit further.
37:16Um, but at the moment, our priority has been to have a successful book.
37:20So, and do everything we can to make that right.
37:23So we've been working very hard on that.
37:25And, and by our definition of success has already come true, which is women putting their
37:29hands up and saying, this happened to me too.
37:31And now I feel cool.
37:32You know, that's the best thing we could possibly, possibly ever hear.
37:35That's awesome.
37:36I love that.
37:37All right.
37:38Send this off with, uh, uh, for, for anyone listening to this, who has just gotten fired,
37:43uh, had this experience, give them, uh, give them, give them something to give them some
37:48light at the end of the tunnel.
37:50It's going to be okay.
37:53It's so going to be okay.
37:55You don't even know how okay it's going to be, honey.
37:59It might be better than okay.
38:00Yeah.
38:01Beautiful.
38:02I love it.
38:03Uh, well, thank you so much.
38:06This was a lot of fun.
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