00:00This topic, we're joined now by Flora Boulter. She is co-director of the LGBTI Plus Observatory
00:06at the Jean Jaurès Foundation. Thanks so much for being with us on the programme this evening,
00:12Flora. A perfect conspiracy theory, as Vedika put it there. Just tell us why you think
00:18Brigitte Macron has been targeted online for so long and with such hate.
00:25Well, I think what's important to understand is that this is a perfect storm of many different
00:34trends that are going on at the moment. We're having fake news and conspiracy theories that
00:40are on the rise. We're seeing also this agenda being pushed quite strongly by some people
00:47who are anxious to get this grotesque accusation to give it traction. And we are also seeing
00:59a very heated, a very strong transphobic discourse in the world overall. There is a very strong
01:09anti-gender ideology, anti-LGBTQIA plus discourse that is specifically focusing on trans persons
01:18and transvestigators, as it has been explained, are in particular a subgenre of this particular
01:28hatred and of this specificity of this type, of this genre of conspiracy theories. So Brigitte
01:40Macron, there is an element of not deviance, but something of the kind because of the age gap
01:49with Emmanuel Macron. Emmanuel Macron has been the target of homophobic discourse in the past and in
01:57the present as well and all sorts of accusations. So it seemed to be the perfect target. And people
02:06were very interested in this specific yarn that was being given.
02:14And many high-profile women, as we said, pointing out Michelle Obama particularly, they face similar
02:21conspiracy theories. Talk to us a little bit more about this phenomenon known as trans investigation.
02:29Well, yes, the idea is that there must be something wrong with those women. And something wrong usually
02:37refers to their femininity being in question. It's, it's in fact, a formula, a reformulation of the idea
02:46that women cannot have power or be in a situation of power. And that therefore, if a woman is in a
02:52situation of power, then she must not be a proper woman. And this is, this is an argument that has been used
03:00against many female politicians over the years. And it is being modernized with the fears that our
03:09society, that some people in our society are having at the moment, with, with people not being cisgender,
03:18and with, with, with the notion that sometimes gender is not completely obvious, and is not necessarily
03:27the results of, of, of, of birth sex, of the sex assigned at birth. So you, we have this argument, which comes very frequently, it's also a way to accuse the person who is the partner, the companion of, of this woman.
03:45And, uh, it's a way of attacking this man, uh, indirectly using homophobic slurs. And in fact, we have seen, uh, many of the arguments used that are being, um, discussed at the trial are very much both transphobic and homophobic in nature.
04:05So they're a bit of both. And they're against her and against her husband. Um, so there's this notion, which is a very present for, for some people. And, uh, they, there's, it also comes with the notion that people are hiding things from us.
04:23On nous cache tout, as they say in French. Um, and that something, that there is a major conspiracy that is hiding the identity of people. Uh, and that, of course, it is one's duty. It is a duty as a citizen to report on this. Uh, and some people seem to be, um, genuinely, um, acting in, not necessarily in good faith, but seem to be under the impression
04:51that what they are reporting is the truth. Many actors, uh, using these arguments are, of course, don't really care or don't really know anything in particular.
05:02And they're just using it as, uh, as, um, as, um, as a smear type, as, uh, as, as, as just a type of insults, uh, accusation.
05:12And, Flora, what kind of message finally does all of this send to transgender people?
05:18Well, that is a very good question. It was, in fact, the key, uh, of the defamation case that, that made the change that, uh, that overturned the,
05:29the decision in the appeal was that, uh, it cannot be argued that being transgender is, um, is, uh, is negative in law, of course.
05:40And it cannot be argued also that hiding one's identity or not disclosing one's identity.
05:46We have privacy laws that are very strong in France.
05:49So, uh, so, uh, so, uh, in the French definition of defamation, uh, this notion that the fact that is claimed needs to be against one's honor or interests, uh, is very strong.
06:14And this was the key why the, the, the, the, the case was lost by Brigitte Macron on appeal, and it is being in cassation right now.
06:22Um, it is, it is interesting to note that, uh, trans, uh, transgender persons, trans persons in general are, um, are covered and protected by this decision.
06:32And it's important to note that it is not an insult in and of itself.
06:36This should not be an insult, but it is very clearly an insult for the people who are, um, pushing this agenda and, and, uh, and basically reporting this story as if it were a fact.
06:50Um, they very clearly have very transphobic views, despite what they may say in general.
06:56They, of course, say that they are not transphobic, but they definitely are because they, uh, they link this with being, uh, a Satanist and all sorts of sexual deviance.
07:07So, um, so, um, so it's very difficult because from, from a judicial point of view, it is very difficult and it is possible to, uh, some of the attempts by Brigitte Macron to, uh, clear her name and to say, I, I, I am a biological woman, have been, uh, taken in a very negative, uh, light by trans persons and by all LGBTQIA plus persons.
07:35Um, precisely because the, there was, there was, there is this very unclear notion that in order to clear my honor, I need to prove that I am a biological woman.
07:47That is not, you know, there is a very clear distinction between these facts.
07:53Um, the fact that she is or isn't a biological woman is, is in and of itself something that can be true or false, but it is not to be linked with the notion of honor.
08:05Because it is, it is no less honorable being trans than being cisgender, of course.
08:10Flora Bolter, thanks so much for being with us.
08:13That's Flora Bolter, co-director of the LGBTI Plus Observatory at the Jean Jaurès Foundation.
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