- 10 months ago
As Malaysia chairs ASEAN and prepares for COP30, a new report reveals 97% of forest clearing licences in Papua New Guinea are controlled by Malaysian-linked firms. Niaga Spotlight investigates the economic, legal, and reputational risks with voices from PNG and Malaysia.
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NewsTranscript
00:00Hello and welcome to Niagara Spotlight with me, Tamina Kaosji.
00:11Niagara Spotlight takes us through the week in economic analysis and future affairs.
00:15Now today on analysis, our spotlight is on Malaysia's timber footprint and looking at economic risk and ESG fallout.
00:23So Malaysia, of course, is positioning itself as a green economy leader as ASEAN Chair this year,
00:28while also keeping in mind the upcoming COP30 narrative in Brazil happening from November 10th to the 21st.
00:35Malaysia's stance for COP30 in Brazil emphasizes a shift from aspiration to execution,
00:40calling for greater climate justice and equitable financing,
00:44and supporting a focus on forest conservation, particularly tropical rainforests.
00:48Also, as the 2025 ASEAN Chair, Malaysia aims to present a joint regional statement
00:54and align its actions with the collective goals of ASEAN member states.
00:58Yet, a new investigative report published by RIMBA Watch, climate watchdog from Malaysia,
01:04Bruno Manser for Switzerland and the Papua New Guinea Environmental Alliance,
01:08shows that 97% of large-scale forest-clearing licenses in Papua New Guinea
01:13are controlled by Malaysian-linked companies,
01:16driving destruction in one of the world's last intact rainforests.
01:19This is no longer just an environmental issue.
01:22It is now an economic and reputational risk that could directly impact Malaysia's access
01:27to sustainable finance, carbon markets and global ESG credibility.
01:32Today, we go beyond the headlines to ask,
01:34what does this mean for indigenous landowners in Papua New Guinea,
01:38for our financial institutions and for Malaysia's claim to climate leadership in ASEAN?
01:44Joining me online now are three experts at the heart of this global story.
01:48RIMBA Watch Director Adam Farhan,
01:51Samuel Kimme, landowner activist from Sandawan Province in Papua New Guinea,
01:56who will be with us in three more minutes,
01:57together with Pamela Avusi, Coordinator for the Papua New Guinea Environmental Alliance, PNGEA.
02:04A very good morning to the both of you.
02:05How are you doing?
02:06Thank you so much for making time to join us this morning on Nyaga Spotlight.
02:12Morning.
02:13Nice to be here.
02:15Thanks a lot.
02:16Now, Adam, perhaps if we could dive straight into the entire context behind the report,
02:22looking at, of course, following where the money is going and quantifying the risk.
02:26Now, the new report finds that 97% of PNG's forest clearing authority licenses
02:32are controlled by Malaysian-linked companies.
02:35Tell us a little bit more about this as an overview before we dive right into it even deeper.
02:40Yeah, so what we did was we mapped out the companies behind forest clearing authorities in Papua New Guinea.
02:47And to give some context to our Malaysian viewers,
02:49forest clearance authorities are Papua New Guinea's equivalent of, for example,
02:53the Ladang Hutan Program in Peninsular Malaysia.
02:55It involves licenses for large-scale conversion of natural forest to agriculture.
03:00And what our analysis found is that 65 out of 67 FCAs, forest clearing authority licenses,
03:06are held by companies that are controlled by, either controlled by Malaysian individuals or are registered in Malaysia.
03:13Very interesting indeed.
03:16Now, it's also showing that around 2.5 million meter square of logs were exported back in 2024,
03:23and 38% of those are tied to FCAs itself.
03:27So let's map and look a little bit further at the financial plumbing then, Adam.
03:33Tell us a little bit more about looking at Malaysian-listed entities, lenders or pension exposures,
03:39which then actually becomes a central part of the discussion looking forward to what these findings are pointing towards.
03:49Right. Well, I mean, what we have done for this report is we mapped the entities behind FCAs.
03:54So we have not yet been able to conduct an analysis into specific financial flows towards these entities.
03:59But what we do know, for example, is that 60% of these FCAs are held by entities through which individuals with surnames
04:08that could link them to Sarawak's big six timber dynasties are associated with.
04:15So these timber dynasties go beyond just logging in Papua New Guinea.
04:19They're involved in other sectors in Papua New Guinea, Sarawak, NPL, and beyond.
04:24For example, real estate, agriculture, media, infrastructure, mining, and so on.
04:29So while we don't know the financial flows into these FCAs specifically,
04:32we do know financial flows towards these wider entities, these wider big six timber dynasties more widely.
04:39So that's what we can say at the moment.
04:41Thank you very much for sharing the picture insofar.
04:44And actually, just to dig a little bit deeper than now.
04:48So Malaysia's deforestation abroad, we're not just focusing on it as an environmental issue alone.
04:54It could also perhaps increase borrowing costs and even then in the future expose our banks to perhaps global penalties as well.
05:03What would you say might be some potential financial consequences for Malaysia
05:07if the scenario that has been exposed happening in Papua New Guinea does continue?
05:13Adam, I'm just going to repeat myself for the question.
05:25Perhaps would you be able to tell us a little bit more about some potential financial consequences for Malaysia
05:30if the scenario in Papua New Guinea, as has been described by the report, continues?
05:36Yes, my apologies.
05:38I seem to have dropped off at some point when answering the previous question.
05:41So can you remind me where I dropped off?
05:44Yes, that's right.
05:45I would like you to continue on from telling us what are potential financial consequences for Malaysia
05:51when we are looking at the wider ecosystem if this sort of penalties continue.
05:57Yeah, so I mean, what I was mentioning earlier is that we are aware that these FCA's are linked to a much wider supply chain.
06:04So what I was saying was that 60% of these FCA's are held by entities,
06:08which are controlled by individuals who have surnames that could link them to Sarawak's big six timber dynasties.
06:16And these timber dynasties go beyond simply logging in Papua New Guinea.
06:19You know, in Papua New Guinea, in Sarawak and, you know, regionally,
06:23they hold significant investments in real estate and agriculture in many other sectors.
06:28And so while we don't know, for example, financial flows towards FCA's specifically,
06:32we know that they are intertwined with a much larger supply chain.
06:35And we know that there's a risk associated with this supply chain of, you know,
06:41potential links to violations of environmental laws, of money laundering and so on.
06:49So it's much larger than FCA's when you really look at it towards the wider supply chain.
06:52Absolutely. Thanks very much for setting the stage for the further discussion.
06:57And now in the meantime, we're also waiting for Samuel Kimme to join us.
07:00But Pamela, allow me to please move on into asking you a little more around the entire context of law as well,
07:06from an environmental harm to legal risk.
07:09So your coalition is urging cancelling of problematic FCA's.
07:13Tell us a little bit more about where this situationalism and positioning is coming from,
07:20from on behalf of Papua New Guineans.
07:30Yes.
07:31To give a bit of context to the viewers out there,
07:37Papua New Guinea itself is part of the third largest intertropical rainforest in the world.
07:44And the vulnerability to deforestation and degradation is very high.
07:50And one of them is commercial logging.
07:53And BNG also holds 7% of the world's biodiversity.
07:59And the FCA, which Adam was alluding to a bit earlier,
08:04is stipulated in the Forestry Act of Papua New Guinea.
08:11And Forest Clearing Authority is part of a concept called Special Agriculture Business List.
08:18So the FCA's are being given out,
08:21or the FCA permits are being given out to big corporations or logging companies
08:26for clearfilling of the forest and converting it into agriculture project.
08:32That is what's in the law as being set in the Forestry Act.
08:40And it involves the three government departments in Papua New Guinea.
08:44And it is the Department of Lands and Physical Planning,
08:47because of the land being had to be sub-leashed.
08:50And the Department of Agriculture and Livestock,
08:54because the area has to be converted into agriculture.
08:57What's really lacking is the implementation part of it.
09:01And also, given the fact that most of the time,
09:07pre-prior informed consent to FPEC is always being violated,
09:13without proper due diligence, without proper awareness to the landowners,
09:21the FPEC process is being violated.
09:23And most of the time, FCA's are being pushed or landowners are being suppressed
09:29to add their views and the sign of their forest for Forest Clearing Authority.
09:35And also, most of the time, it ended up without any agriculture project.
09:40They are mainly interested in the logs.
09:42And once the logs, all the logs in that area are being felled and exported,
09:48then there's no agriculture project that will come up.
09:51So there's a lot of reports and there's a lot of exposure being done.
09:56There's a lot of research done into FCA's.
09:58Therefore, FCA's poses a big risk in terms of deforestation and degradation in PNG.
10:04Thank you. Thanks very much, Pamela, for that overview
10:07that actually helps us to dig deeper and understand a little bit more about the FCA system.
10:12Would you mind also perhaps explaining as further background?
10:16Now, within Papua New Guinea, there are also the SABL,
10:18the Special Agriculture and Business League status lands,
10:22and perhaps about how the FCA system is sort of bypassing any reforms and gains
10:28that were made within this arena from the year 2013 onwards.
10:31Yes, so there was a commission of inquiry into the SABLs back in 2013.
10:40And the inquiry found out that 90% of or 95% of the SABLs are illegal.
10:52They're being issued without due diligence.
10:55Therefore, there was a call on putting a stop to new SABLs.
11:00But the FCA's, the PNG Forest Authority, the government department coordinating
11:05the forest operations in the country or forestry business in the country,
11:10still goes ahead and issue the FCA.
11:14So the SABLs are being stopped, but the FCA's are still being issued with some slight amendment
11:22to the forestry act.
11:25And the FCA's are still being issued.
11:28And there was a moratorium in 2022 calling on putting a stop or a moratorium into FCA's in 2022.
11:37After 2022, and with the report now that is being launched in the report from another recess
11:47and campaigns organization called the Act now still found out that there is still a lot of logs,
11:55volume, big track of volume of logs being exported after the moratorium.
12:01So there is no difference.
12:02So FCA's are becoming a big threat to landowners, losing their rights to their land,
12:08losing their rights to their forest, and missing out in terms of benefit.
12:12Absolutely.
12:13Now, it is indeed egregious.
12:15And moving into looking at arenas of perhaps cross-border cooperation.
12:22Pamela, what would you say are the cross-border cooperation which is required with
12:26potentially Malaysian authorities to close the loop,
12:29which has clearly been observed by PNGA as well as Rimba Watch and Bruno Mansafon's
12:35new investigative report?
12:40Sorry, can you please repeat your question again?
12:43I probably lost the first part of it.
12:46Sure.
12:46Would you be able to tell us what kind of cross-border cooperation is needed,
12:51perhaps with Malaysian authorities, to close all the loops that you have observed
12:56and told us about?
12:57Yeah, so as per the report, and the report clearly states that this is not only a problem
13:07in PNG, this is a problem for Papua New Guinea and also Malaysia.
13:12Malaysia in terms of, because most of the reports found out 99% of the logging companies
13:18or the logging operations in Papua New Guinea is from Malaysia.
13:21Malaysia and the problem to deforestation, human rights abuse, violation of human rights,
13:30people losing their land, land-groping issue, is partly on Malaysian government or Malaysian
13:36country as a whole.
13:39It's partly the burden or the problem on the solder.
13:42So we call for PNG, there was, there will be, and there was, there was firstly a review
13:50on the Forestry Act, and we call on the government to totally remove the FCA's from the Forestry
13:58Act because it is not benefiting the landowners.
14:00And in PNG itself, PNG is quite unique because the land is 90% of the land, more than 90% of the land
14:09is owned by customary landowners.
14:11And that 90% has decreased through FCA's, most of the land, 10% after, after the introduction
14:20of FCA's, now it has decreased to 85%, so 10% was given up for FCA, and the people are missing
14:27out on their, the customary landowners are missing out on their land, through land-groping
14:32and through FCA's, so the civil society, we made a call to the government, we provide
14:38a strong position on removing the FCA's from the, from the Forestry Act, and it, that, that,
14:46that follow-up action will still go on.
14:49We will, we will be still pushing for the government to remove FCA's as it is not benefiting
14:55our people.
14:55And also, it is good for our government from PNG side to publish audit findings of how many
15:04logs are being exported through FCA's, and we understood that all of our, through the
15:12reports, all the reports and the facts and figures provided in the report, most of the
15:16logs being exported out of PNG lands on the source of China.
15:21And then it turns into furniture and timber to other markets in the other European markets
15:27and USA markets.
15:28And now USA, European Union is putting the European Union Deforestation Regulation, EUDR,
15:35so they really need to step up and look at the logs coming from China, because most of
15:39the logs coming from China is from PNG, and the logs are being, the logs coming is, is from
15:48unsustainable logging.
15:51So if they are more committed into EUDR, they also need to track where these logs comes
15:57from.
15:58Also to the banks or the financial institution, it is, it is really, it is a big need for
16:04them to verify the, the companies that have, that they have, have dealings with, the tax
16:12regulation, apply stringent processes into this, because most of the time, the logs or the
16:20timber business violates the, the process of, I mean, they also go into money laundering.
16:30So it is, it is a call to the Malaysian government or call to the, the financial institution as
16:37well to do good deep diligence checks, verify properly these big logging tycoons on tax regulation
16:47and money laundering, and also for, from transfer pricing of logs being exported.
16:53So it's a two-way thing from the, from PNG itself, and also Malaysia and also, and, and
17:00thirdly to the, to the market, the market chain.
17:04And now with the, with all the stringent requirements on the EUDR, the EU and the USA market is still
17:10looking to that as well.
17:13Thank you very much for very clearly defining to us about what type of evidence happens to
17:19be suggesting that it's more than just regulatory oversight that we're looking at when it comes
17:23to the FCA, but potentially a wider governance crisis as well.
17:28Would you also perhaps recommend, Pamela, that Malaysian authorities could be cooperating with
17:34PNG in any investigations and ought they be on legal grounds?
17:40Yeah.
17:41Yeah.
17:42Yeah.
17:43Yeah.
17:44So, um, as, as I mentioned, it's, it's, it's, it's, um, it needs combined effort into, uh,
17:55into doing a proper investigation.
17:58And I've mentioned, uh, the three, like the financial institution, uh, and also, um, we
18:07have our own laws on source in, in terms of giving out permits in terms of, uh, um, entertaining
18:14a business into Papua New Guinea.
18:16So, um, also a call to our PNG forest authority or government or a treasury, um, internal revenue
18:24commission to really look into, um, the business, uh, the, because most of the, the report also
18:31found out that the most of the, the 90% of the, um, companies are from Malaysia.
18:37So it does come from our leaders as well.
18:40It needs these, um, leaders to really define what is development and what, what development,
18:46um, really benefits our people.
18:49And this, there's a lot of new polls and there's a lot of problems that comes with FCA and this
18:54has to be really scrutinized and this has to be really reviewed and our leaders should
19:01really look into, um, what is the best option or how can we solve it?
19:05It is now or never.
19:06So how can we, uh, work as, um, um, how can we work as, um, um, the, the, as a state and
19:16also as a, um, and Malaysia as our, um, state, uh, partner in terms of business that there
19:24are laws that has to be respected for Papua New Guinea and, um, the look at, um, our transfer
19:31pricing is being facilitated and look into our tax regulations.
19:36There are a lot of new polls and there are a lot of, uh, laws that has to be tightened
19:40up.
19:41Thanks very much for the conversation.
19:43And so far, Pamela, as well as Adam, we now take a brief break.
19:47We'll be right back with the rest of Niagara Spotlight, focusing, of course, on Malaysia's
19:51timber footprint, in particular looking at Papua New Guinea.
19:54Don't go anywhere.
19:55Do stay with us.
20:11Welcome back to Niagara Spotlight.
20:12Still with me, Tamina Kaurji.
20:14And today, of course, we've been discussing looking at Malaysia's timber footprint, in
20:18particular, looking at the scenario in Papua New Guinea when it comes to economic risk and
20:23also ESG fallouts.
20:25I have on the line with me insofar, Adam Farhan, director with Rimba Watch, a Malaysian climate
20:30watchdog, and also Pamela Avusi from the Papua New Guinea Environmental Alliance.
20:35We're also waiting on the line for Samuel Kine, who is a landowner activist from the Sandawan
20:40province in PNG, to join us.
20:42And if he does, we will integrate him as part of the discussion.
20:46Adam, meanwhile, moving into looking at particular red flags and also remedies then.
20:52So in your opinion, what specific governance or perhaps legal patterns appear across the
20:59FCA projects which were actually looked into as part of this report?
21:05Yeah, well, what we have been seeing in this analysis is that there are many larger
21:10companies associated with, you know, the big six Sivawakian timber tycoons operating FCA's
21:17through smaller subsidiaries.
21:19And we are also seeing, as I mentioned earlier, individuals with the same surname, surnames
21:23linked to these big six conglomerates dominating the FCA field.
21:27So as I mentioned earlier, you know, 60% of the FCA's are held by individuals with surnames
21:32that are associated with the big six.
21:34So what we're seeing is that essentially this big six holds some form of nomination over
21:41Papua New Guinea's forestry industry.
21:42And that in itself is already a red flag.
21:44I understand that very well indeed.
21:47Now, would you say that there are any immediate policy levers available to us here in Malaysia,
21:54which could perhaps help to curb or even address these practices, because there is also the
22:02need to potentially move forth with the idea of not harming legitimate forestry jobs that
22:09have been created via this in Papua New Guinea?
22:14Yeah, well, I mean, there's such a wide range of sort of policy levers that will be required
22:18to address this issue.
22:21One of the issues that we are proposing as part of the recommendations of the report is
22:26to see immediate regulatory action by, for example, the central banking system.
22:31So we hope that, for example, Bank Negara in Malaysia and their counterparts in Papua New
22:36Guinea, that they require, and we say it very clearly, not recommend, but require banks to
22:43adhere to free, prior, informed consent and NDP principles.
22:47NDP being no deforestation, peat, or exploitation.
22:50Once this requirement is set, at the institutional level, you know, banks can concretely act on
22:55this by sort of, you know, developing a spatial monitoring system for monitoring forest cover,
23:01where, you know, your customer would have to provide a shapefile of a project site.
23:05And then the bank can overlay the data on the project site with spatial forest cover data
23:10in order to act on, you know, complying with NDP.
23:14And you'd also need to have a very strong and detailed FPIC policy, which not only outlines
23:23a broader commitment to FPIC, but also sets out specific requirements for adherence to
23:31FPIC based on international standards, for example, the United Nations Declaration on the
23:34Rights of Indigenous Peoples.
23:35Absolutely. I think you raise a couple of very interesting points over there.
23:40Could we dig a little bit deeper into free, prior, and informed, you know, consent within
23:45the context when it comes to forestry? Because in particular, this is also an issue that travels
23:51far beyond Papua New Guinea, even for our own Malaysian indigenous forests, right?
23:57Correct.
23:57So, would you be able to tell us a little bit more about that within the context of ensuring
24:05that indigenous communities are properly part of the entire conversation which is occurring,
24:11even before it leads to logging or deforestation?
24:14Yes. So, I mean, as Pamela mentioned earlier, in Papua New Guinea, most of the land falls under
24:22customary indigenous territory. And FPIC, for example, is a right enshrined in articles such
24:30as mentioned earlier, the United Nations Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples, which allows
24:34indigenous communities the right to, you know, free from consent, free being they have the right to
24:40say yes or no to a project. Prior, meaning that this consent has to be achieved before a project
24:45starts, not after. Informed, meaning that the community has to have full access to information
24:50during this consent process. And consents, of course, being whether they can consent or not
24:54to a project. So, this is a basic minimum requirement for any activity that may directly or even
25:02indirectly impact the rights of indigenous peoples.
25:04Absolutely. Now, moving into perhaps maybe our wider oversight structures, Adam, would there be a
25:12possibility now to enforce ESG compliance? And for Malaysian players, we're talking about,
25:18let's say, Bursa, maybe EPF or even Bank Negara, who could step in? Or are we already at a point
25:25where it needs to move beyond that?
25:29Well, I think, for example, looking at the finance sector, the central bank has already
25:33recommended adherence to FPIC, for example, in the value-based intermediation and financing
25:39assessment, the VBIAF guidelines. But one of the problems is that these are not mandatory,
25:44that these are recommendations. What we're calling on is for articles such as FPIC and NDP to be
25:49required by the central bank to be a requirement for commercial financing.
25:56Absolutely. Thank you for that. So, moving beyond recommendations into actual ensuring that
26:02it's part of the mandated requirements. It does not appear that perhaps Samuel might be joining us
26:08online. Perhaps also as in the arena of representing indigenous voices, Pamela, if you don't mind,
26:15I would also like for you to perhaps extrapolate for us in the arena of costs that don't necessarily
26:21show up in the GDP. From the community's experience in Papua New Guinea, let's have a look at what the
26:28hard costs and the impacts actually are for the people who are living on these lands in these
26:34areas. Let's look at issues such as perhaps, you know, hunting, fishing losses, cultural sites,
26:41conflict and otherwise. Please tell us a little more if you can.
26:44Thank you. Yes. So, like I mentioned a bit earlier, the FCA is not really benefiting our
26:57landowners. They're losing big time and they're losing in terms of environmental impacts. They're
27:02losing in terms of social impact as well. And the special, sorry, the FCA is a 99-year lease.
27:11And imagine that 99-year, the rights are being forfeited to the government and the companies.
27:18So, the government plays the, or facilitates the business part of it, negotiates the business.
27:25But the real losers at the end of the day are the customary landowners. And for 99 years,
27:31that land is not, that's not, they don't have the right to it. The land is being,
27:39given to someone else's for that 99 years. And as per the end, it has to be renewed or the
27:50agreement has to be renewed every 10, every 10 years. So, the, the point on FPIC is very important
27:58that Adam was talking about. And it has to come from the landowners. And within the 10 years,
28:05you need to imagine if there's a, those big logging tycoons, they're really interested in profit.
28:11They're really interested in making money and profit out of the forest. So, within the 10 years,
28:16all the forest would be gone, or half of the forest would be gone. And they still negotiate to move
28:20on. So, another thing as well is the, for, for, for Malaysia, or the Malaysian timber tycoons or timber
28:31cattle should acknowledge the activities in, in, in, in Papua New Guinea. And also, um, as,
28:38as provided in our recommendation, we also call on the Malaysian, Malaysian anti-corruption
28:43commissions to investigate whether companies obtain concession through, uh, due diligence process
28:50or to do, to, to the right, uh, right process, uh, using our laws and acts or through illicit means
28:57or they bridge laws or engage in tax and money laundering offenses. This has to be,
29:02there has to be some accents taken and these, this has gone, um, um, uh, from bed to bed now. And
29:08like I mentioned, the rights of our landowners are being violated. And it comes, when it comes to
29:13protesting to protect the land, there, there is always violation and human rights abuse. And the
29:19legal affairs division in Malaysia should also, um, accelerate the operation of, uh, uh, or coming
29:26up with the, an exit plan or business and human, uh, rights, uh, addressing what they're doing overseas
29:32or the overseas operations of Malaysian companies through, like I said, uh, through the supply chain
29:37or, or the market and should put in place strong penalties for violation. And it is, it is, uh, really
29:45time for us to, or for the, uh, the Malaysian government and even the PNC government to really
29:51look into the, this issue, which is very, um, crucial at the moment. Absolutely. Thank you very
29:57much for actually, you know, emphasizing a lot of these hard costs, which need to be looked at in much
30:02of a cross boundary and trans border sort of a perspective. Uh, Pamela, would you be able to tell
30:08us a little more about some of the perhaps, uh, invisibilized impacts that are occurring for Papua New
30:16Guinea's, uh, indigenous communities due to these FCA related deforestation? Um, I would like to
30:23perhaps explore in particular, looking at youth prospects, uh, even perhaps women's safety or local
30:31governance strain. In your perspectives, from the work that you have done on the ground, have you noted
30:36any of these soft impacts and costs that quite often may not then be documented in official
30:43environmental reports, et cetera? Yes. So, um, um, um, we've mentioned a lot on, um, how the communities
30:55miss out and there's a, there are a lot of underlying issues and there are a lot of issues not being
31:00reported and I generally talk about social issues. Um, our, our PNG is, um, a land of, uh, thousand tribes.
31:10We have, um, our cultural system. So our, the cultural, um, the cultural system are being, um, also, uh, also
31:18distorted or abused and the social cohesion in the society, all the, uh, this type of development also
31:26breaks the social cohesion in, in PNG. And when it comes to women and, um, uh, when it comes to women
31:34and youth, most of the time they missed out in terms of benefit. Most of the time they missed out
31:39in terms of giving their consent to, um, to development or to such development. And at the
31:45end of the day, uh, the youths are the future generation and, and they lost therefore, they lost
31:50what is traditionally their culture. They lost all the cultural significance on the value or the
31:56value of the forest or the significant value of the forest. And those, our young generation would not
32:03be, uh, able to benefit from the forest in the next 30 years. So this is like the, the gap now that
32:10is, um, that is becoming a trend in PNG. Women, uh, are also being, um, in, in logging, especially in logging
32:19operation areas, women also tend to walk in plantations or they walk in, uh, company areas.
32:26Most of the time, um, there are reports already, and, uh, there are some research done into the,
32:32that as well, where women, uh, rights are being abused.
32:37Or there, there is, um, um, there is a violation of the labor act. The youths and the women are not
32:44paid properly of, or the laborers are not being paid properly. So these are some, um, like impacts
32:51as well that, that does not really hit the headline, but it comes under, it's generalizes
32:57social impact, so to speak. Absolutely. Now, absolutely. When the forest goes, of course,
33:03um, food systems, rivers, and even livelihoods also collapse. And what this of course means for daily
33:08life and survival, uh, impacts that only the community is really able to extrapolate on. Thank
33:14you very much for those insights, Pamela. Now, as we move towards perhaps closing out the discussion,
33:19Adam, perhaps could I put this question to you? Now, of course, as we've discussed, PNG holds
33:25part of the world's third largest intact tropical rainforest. Now, what would you say is, uh, what
33:31Malaysian companies, uh, and other administrators could do perhaps over the next 12 months to
33:37demonstrate, uh, commitment to cause correction now that this report has been unveiled moving forward?
33:46Yeah. Well, I mean, we hope to see companies move by themselves, but we feel that companies that are,
33:52you know, already so engaged in harmful extractivism, uh, both locally and abroad are not really going
33:57to be moved, uh, on their own and they need to be forced to by ending their access to capital.
34:02So for example, one milestone we would love to see in the next 12 months is for all Malaysian financial
34:06institutions, uh, to commit to an NDP policy, which covers all financial services,
34:11not just lending, uh, and to commit to a transparent FPIC policy, which clearly outlines what FPIC
34:17processes, um, will be followed benchmark to international standards, such as the United
34:21Nations declaration on the rights of indigenous people. And we, of course, love to see our
34:25counterparts in Papua New Guinea do the same. Absolutely. Now, of course, Malaysian viewers are
34:30watching this. All of this may be very, um, new information to them, but nonetheless,
34:35thank you so very much for all the insights, both, um, Adam Farhan, as well as Pamela Avusi from
34:41actually looking at all of this in deeper depth. Now, Malaysia stands at a crossroads. We can continue
34:48an extractive model that threatens our credibility and raises financing risks, or we can unlock the
34:53hundred billion ringgit green economy projected by 2030 and lead ASEAN forwards in climate responsibility.
35:00What happens in Papua New Guinea will determine not only our environmental footprint, but also our
35:06legitimacy as a nation ready to compete in a future where capital follows sustainability.
35:12I'm Tamina Kausji. Signing off for now, here's to a productive week ahead.
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