00:00And joining me now from London is Dr Martin Farr, a specialist in contemporary British
00:04history at Newcastle University. Thank you so much for your time. We're now hearing about
00:10how in an unprecedented move, UK MPs are looking to lodge a parliamentary motion to strip the
00:16Prince of his dukedom. He's already said he won't be using the title. So what exactly
00:21does this move mean?
00:24Yes, attitudes are heartening to the situation. I think that the Palace was hoping they were
00:28ahead of the curve in persuading the Prince, although I'm sure there was not much alternative
00:34that he should relinquish his use of the titles. The King apparently did not want Parliament
00:39to be bothered and use up parliamentary time by the legal requirement of the titles being
00:44cancelled. So he will henceforth simply be known as Prince Andrew because he was born the
00:49son of a monarch. But MPs, and one MP in particular, an MP for York, and of course he was Duke of
00:55New York, is very keen for this to go further. And there's a momentum to the story now, which
01:01is, I think, fed by the rumours that we hear, the sense that we have that Prince William,
01:06the Prince of Wales, who will be the next king, is very keen for there to be an even harder
01:11break with Prince Andrew and his father's prepared to countenance. And if this law were to be
01:15passed, and it's really only conjecture and discussion today, there's no moves by government
01:19to do this. Government's been very keen not to be associated with it. That would make it much
01:23easier for William to enact the necessary measures on the event of him becoming king.
01:29I want to come back to William's response to all of this in a moment. But on Thursday,
01:33the King is to meet Pope Leo at the Vatican, and we're in an historic occasion, the monarch
01:39and the leader of the Roman Catholic Church are going to pray together in the Sistine Chapel.
01:43But the Epstein scandal has very much overshadowed all of this, hasn't it?
01:48Yes. I mean, these are historic events. This was always going to be a transitional monarchy,
01:54given the age of the king. But it's been a very successful monarchy in so many ways.
01:59The transition was extremely smooth from Elizabeth II to Charles III. He's been treated for cancer.
02:04He's doing very well in terms of public opinion. His public events are very successful. This meeting
02:09with the Pope today is truly historic. And yet, more than drip-drip, it's a thud-thud of news stories
02:15about his brother. And there's more to come. I mean, they were briefed in advance of the book
02:21published today by Virginia Gouffre. But also, the so-called Epstein papers in the United States,
02:27and there's pressure on President Trump to release more of the documents, have more details in them,
02:33we're told, which may be as grim, if not grimmer, than the ones we already know.
02:37And as you point out, the story keeps snowballing day by day. And it's clearly damaging the image
02:45of the royal family. So what exactly can the palace do next?
02:51It has the potential to damage the royal family. I mean, there are many examples in history,
02:56and certainly in the last hundred years or so, when they've had mass communications,
02:59where the royal family has faced a crisis, sometimes an existential crisis, such as the
03:03replication crisis in 1936, where generally speaking, they're sufficiently adaptable,
03:08and sufficiently shrewd, and take advice, and act on the advice, that they manage to swerve and avoid
03:13this becoming more serious. Another example would be the death of Diana in 1997, and the Queen
03:19initially misreading the public response, and then being advised by her Prime Minister to respond
03:23in a different way. So they're quite adept at dealing with this sort of situation. And the King has
03:28a cleaner pair of hands, and his mother, who we hear was very fond of Andrew, he could be slightly
03:33more, shall we say, decisive, but nothing like as decisive as we hear his son intends to be.
03:39So it is a crisis, it has the potential to damage the institution, not merely in Britain,
03:43but internationally. I mean, he is the King of 14 realms, including Australia, New Zealand,
03:48and Canada. This does enormous damage, potentially, to the institution of monarchy
03:51internationally, and by virtue of that, a big part of the UK's reputation internationally.
03:56It rests a great deal on the appeal of the monarchy, and on London as a place to visit.
04:00So it's vitally important, and I'm sure the palace knows this, that this needs to be closed
04:04down as quickly as possible. And I suspect we haven't heard the last of the palace's response
04:08to the stories. And as you were saying earlier, Prince William has made it clear to those close
04:13to him that he certainly wants to go further than his father in isolating Andrew from the royal
04:17family. But in terms of what is possible, I mean, you know, what could be the likely scenario
04:2510, 15 years, or whenever, down the track?
04:30Well, I hesitate to speculate as to what may happen. One of the stories today in the papers,
04:35I'm sure you know, is the fact that Prince Andrew has been living in this enormous house
04:39in Windsor Great Park, outside the security court, and so it requires extra money to be
04:44spent for security. And he's been paying a peppercorn rent, so effectively no rent for 20 years.
04:49This plays very badly with a population of public which are having very low standards of economic
04:55growth, very little change in their living standards. It's extremely, it plays very badly
04:59in terms of how the monarchy appears to the public. They've cut down the royals to working
05:03royals that have been very keen to suggest sacrifice and duty as part of their unspoken contract with
05:10the British people. And this sits very ill with it. And so one could imagine in the future
05:15him living in much more modest circumstances, privately, and that there are precedents in
05:20the royal family for that too. But certainly no more public profile for the Prince, even as we
05:26saw last year, his presence at the royal family's Christmas at Sandringham in Norfolk. He will,
05:31I suspect, be publicly invisible, apart from a few long lens photos of him riding in Windsor
05:36Great Park.
05:37But the longer this goes on, and the more revelations are revealed, there's a danger,
05:42is there not, that it fuels the Republican sentiment, not just in places such as my home
05:48country, Australia or Canada, but also within the UK too.
05:54Oh, indeed. And that's partly the challenge that, I mean, it's an extraordinary situation that an
05:58advanced democracy has a monarchy. And it's a popular monarchy by and large, although most people
06:04are indifferent rather than enthusiastic. Few are actually hostile. There's no real Republican
06:09movement in Britain, as there is in Australia with the referendum, of course. But this is the type
06:13of thing which won't do it. I think the public can see, as it were, to use a British idiom, that
06:19we're dealing with a wrong on here, and that the institution itself is sound and is concerned with
06:24public duty and public service. And in the form of Prince William and Princess of Wales and their
06:30family, we have almost after central casting, the ideal next generation of royals to manage the
06:36transition from one reign to another. Do you think, however, that the royal family
06:41will survive in that transitional period between when King is currently in power to when his son
06:49assumes the throne? I suspect so. This was the moment for Republicans in Britain and in Australia
06:55when the late Queen passed. That was the moment when we went from an extremely popular monarch,
07:0075 years on the throne, to someone who had been mildly controversial as Prince of Wales. But in fact,
07:05it was extremely smoothly and seamlessly done. The Prince of Wales was the most qualified king in
07:10history, as it were, having been heir to the throne for so long. New York was required and has
07:15been absolutely flawless in his execution of it. So my suspicion is this will endure. It will be
07:19harder to see this being a long-term concern in the realms around the Commonwealth. And indeed,
07:26we're having referendums on a republic in Jamaica very shortly. I think that's in training
07:31to become a republic Barbados two years ago. So that won't go away. Britain will be the last
07:36place where that is the case. And of course, there are other European monarchs too, and they've
07:40succeeded by adopting, adapting to circumstances, by living within their means, crucially, and by not
07:46being seen to be taking advantage of their position. But the bicycling monarchies of continental Europe,
07:52it's not quite what would happen or what would be popular here, but certainly the marginalisation of
07:58someone who's seen to be an embarrassment, both to the family and the country, is likely to take place.
08:03Dr. Martin Farr, thank you so much for your thoughts.
