- 3 months ago
Category
😹
FunTranscript
00:00Did you know at the start of the season that somebody from the strike team would die?
00:12I mean, did you set out, okay, this is the plan?
00:17The writers and I started talking about what we wanted the season to be about.
00:21And we talked about, I challenged them to, in a fifth season, not to save anything.
00:30I talked about the idea that I didn't want to try to artificially preserve the show, that we should use every ounce of story we could tell, and that I felt it was time for some kind of price to be paid by this unit of men who've sort of done a lot of good but also done a lot of bad.
00:50And we bandied about what that would be, and we came up with what we felt was a pretty tragic story about a guy who's caught and trying to do the right thing and trying not to betray his friends.
01:03And we talked about miscommunication and mistaken notions and how this might happen, and we came up with this.
01:11So we knew as far back in July of last year that we would probably do it.
01:15So intellectually, I had in my head that we would do that.
01:18But emotionally, I didn't commit to it for a long time because I really loved Kenny Johnson as an actor and as a person, and I knew that it would, as great story-wise as it would be, I knew it would be tough on him.
01:31I knew we'd be crossing a threshold that we hadn't crossed before, sort of losing one of our original founding members on the show.
01:41So it took me to about right before the Christmas break in December when I finally turned to the writers and said, okay, we're going to do this.
01:49Even though we had been planning all the episodes for it, I always would say, well, you know, maybe we'll do it, maybe we won't, but let's keep moving towards it.
01:59And it finally got to a point where I just had to say, yeah, we're going to do it.
02:03So you concluded pretty quickly that Kenny was your man.
02:06I mean, it was a laugh.
02:07Well, that's the story that we came up with.
02:08In the previous season, he was the one who had gotten caught with the heroin.
02:12He's the one who had the heroin in the thing.
02:13And even going back to that previous season, we had Amolius see it, and we set up a whole IED thing.
02:18We didn't know exactly what we were going to do with it, but we knew it was going to lead to trouble.
02:21So he was the candidate to sort of really be the one stuck in the vice between his friends and comrades and between this new character, Lieutenant Kavanaugh.
02:30So it kind of, it just happened that way.
02:33It wasn't that we sort of spun a wheel or didn't like him more than we liked anyone else.
02:40It's just the way the story broke.
02:42When did you guys learn that he was the guy?
02:44Well, I guess it was pretty shortly after Sean had made the final decision.
02:50And, you know, Sean called me and we talked about it.
02:53And I think my first initial sort of emotional response was, oh, no, we can't do this.
03:00You know, but that was coming from a friendship standpoint.
03:04You know, because we, you know, we've become very tight, particularly, I mean, all of us.
03:10It's a very familial situation in set.
03:13But particularly, I'd have to say, Kenny and Walton and I have become very, very tight friends.
03:19I mean, long after The Shield is over, these guys are like uncles to my children.
03:23We're very, very close.
03:25So, I had an emotional response.
03:27But the interesting thing was, I called Kenny.
03:31And Kenny had known before me.
03:35And he had had a couple of days to absorb it, or a little while.
03:38And the interesting thing was, when we talked about it from an artistic standpoint,
03:42we couldn't deny the genius in it because if there was anyone in the cast that was the conscience of this team
03:54and that it would create the greatest emotional impact, certainly for Vic Mackey,
04:02it would be Kenny's character of Lemonhead.
04:05And the fact that it was based on a series of misunderstandings was so sort of Shakespearean
04:13that we thought, oh, my God, as hard as this is going to be to do, we really have to do it.
04:22And, Sean, you had him still alive for a couple seconds there.
04:25I mean, what was your point?
04:27Well, that's, yeah, that was something that one of our sicker minds on the writing staff,
04:31Kurt Sutter, devised and really fought for was that change should have to come face-to-face with him
04:39in those last breathing moments.
04:42And even though nothing was sort of said, it was important to Kurt, and I ended up agreeing with him.
04:49It was just, it was a messy death.
04:51One of the reasons, you know, we talked a lot about how he would do it.
04:56And, you know, Vic had shot Terry in the pilot, and there was some discussion about whether this should be a callback to that or not.
05:00We had this whole grenade story that was going in and out.
05:03And we put that grenade story into the Kavanaugh episode, the episode that focused on Kavanaugh,
05:08knowing that we were going to get to this point, because I always like, it felt like a cowardly way to kill somebody to me.
05:15It wasn't the personal thing that Vic had done with Terry, where it's just right there.
05:19It's dropping something, and then, you know, you have your back to the guy, and you're 30 feet away when it happens.
05:25And that's why I wanted to play it.
05:28So it was a tough thing.
05:34And I was there for the filming of it, and to see Kenny walk out on the set with that makeup, you just, yeah, heart broke.
05:42Yeah.
05:42You were there, you were obviously all there.
05:44Was that your final night of shooting, by the way?
05:46Yes.
05:46So you're obviously all there.
05:48I mean, tell me about it.
05:49What was it like?
05:50It was just an incredibly intense night.
05:53And, you know, again, we're very familial.
06:00You know, we're a tight group, and it was almost as if we were really experiencing a death, because we knew that Kenny would no longer be on the show.
06:12And, you know, you get pretty used to having K.J. on set, you know, and he's such a light and a personality and just a great friend and a comrade.
06:23And, you know, it was just heavy.
06:26It was thick, and it was the last night of that particular set of episodes, so we were going on a hiatus.
06:34Not that we don't have intense nights on the show.
06:36No, no, no, but yeah, it was, because when I first read it, I was really thrown off.
06:41I mean, I was away in Mexico, I think.
06:44You were filming a movie there.
06:45Yeah, and I read the script, and I was like, oh, my God.
06:48I sat down, because I couldn't believe it.
06:50I was like, I realized that Walton was killing him, and I was really, it really threw me off, and I wasn't expecting to feel that way, you know, because, see, when I started on the show, he was the first person I worked with, and I kind of, and he kind of invited me in in a way.
07:05He was real generous and open, and we were talking and sitting there, and so not knowing him like you guys do, but just the whole thing.
07:14It's just, you know, I got a chance to get to know him, and I think of him as a friend, too, and it was just, it was intense.
07:22I was thrown.
07:23I was really surprised.
07:25Forrest, let's go back to the setup of your character.
07:27I mean, what brought you to this show in the first place.
07:29I don't know how else to describe it, but you're just one scary son of a bitch.
07:35How was it described to you, you know, how was the role offered to you?
07:39What did they tell you?
07:40Well, I met with Sean, and he described it to me, you know, and we went in a restaurant, and he was talking about the character was going to be a big threat, the biggest threat that Mackie had had, and that slowly, by trying to capture him, he was going to start to become him in a way, you know, and that's how it happened, you know, the conversation, how it all started off.
08:02Yeah, you know, there wasn't a real second choice that I was excited about, so I went to that lunch, you know, saying, I'm going to get Forrest Waker, because there really wasn't a plan B that appealed to me.
08:14And we just, we talked a lot, and I think he's been very generous, because I think a lot of that character is on the page, but really what he brought to it that I didn't anticipate was an intensity and zeal to this guy's quest.
08:30A righteousness to what he was pursuing, that wasn't on the page that much, and that I think elevated the character, you know, I think the writing for that character was an eight, and I think his acting brought it up to a ten, you know, and Michael was very kind with his words about the writing of the show, and I take a great deal of pride in the writing, but, you know, it's really the first show that I've worked on where, to me, the episodes eclipse the scripts, you know,
09:00you're very proud of the script, and then little things along the way sort of chip away at what your vision was, and you're sort of left with going, well, it could have been worse, I guess.
09:10And this show, as proud as I am of the scripts, the episodes always turn out better than just the scripts, and it's a credit to all the actors, especially, you know, these two guys and the crew and everything.
09:20So he really added a ton of just zeal, it's sort of, you know, it was the third or fourth episode that I was editing with him where I realized, it was like, well, this guy's like Inspector Javert, you know?
09:30In Les Mis, in terms of, you know, this look in his eye, and then I saw him do an interview, it was like on Jimmy Kimmel maybe or something, and they were talking about, you know, we were doing the show, and you're like, I'm going to get Vic Mackey.
09:43It was like, it was like the character was on Jimmy Kimmel, just sort of swearing his, this blood oath that he was going to get this guy and do everything, and I was just watching going, this guy has committed, and he's sort of elevated above what you can imagine.
09:54Can I say something?
09:55Can I even imagine?
09:56When I was directing episode six, I think it was, Sean and I were in the tone meeting during episode five, and I think we referred to it as the forest of it all.
10:09Embrace the forest of it all.
10:10Embrace the forest of it all.
10:12And it was about what forest was bringing to this character and this incredible intensity.
10:18I think something that was absolutely genius on the part of the writers was that I don't think that we actually spoke until the third episode.
10:25Yeah, right at the end of the third episode.
10:27Right at the, that was like, that scene, the scene in the clip where we met is in the last scene of the third episode, and there's all this buildup and tension.
10:37But you know about him, you know he's trying to get you, you know that he's got a cause in the mouth.
10:40Yes, and we're fully aware of each other, right?
10:41It's all this buildup.
10:43And just from the moment, you know, the thing is, we, we got along so famously, but we, they kept us away from each other, and we would generally meet as our characters.
10:55And with, God.
10:57Which is the way it should be done, correct?
10:58It was loathing, it was just two people just, oh, just wanting to eat each other's throats out.
11:07It was just, you know, that kind of palpable feeling throughout the, the season.
11:13And I, I, you know, from an acting, you know, there's very few actors I've ever worked with who have as powerful a, a, a presence as Forrest.
11:23And, uh, it was just, for me, it was intense while it was happening, but it was always a joy because I'd walk away from it and go, wow, that was fun.
11:33Well, Forrest, uh, Forrest, your character prompted this question.
11:37Since you play a bad guy, bad guy on the show, have you ever been confronted as your character on the street?
11:44Huh?
11:45Have you ever, have I what?
11:47Have you ever been confronted as your character?
11:48Do people assume?
11:49People really, because they love, because his performance is so strong and people love, uh, Michael's performance, I've, people take such personal, you know, it's a front to them that I'm after him.
12:00I, I, like, when you say that, there's still a little door in my head that I'm counting on.
12:03When you say a bad guy, I'm like, whoa, whoa, whoa.
12:05Wait, wait a minute.
12:06Hold on a second.
12:07It's a turn on, it's here.
12:08But everybody thinks it's a bad guy.
12:09No, I started realizing that during the season, I mean, he's an internal affairs guy who's trying to put a cop away who killed another cop.
12:14I think we created.
12:15And so why is he described as a bad guy?
12:17Well, somebody asked, um, Forrest, you, you played a sadistic character.
12:21Sadistic.
12:22I don't know about sadistic, but nevertheless, how were you able to smile so sadistically and feel so real?
12:28Dude, you nailed this.
12:29That's a really nice thing to say.
12:31What were you, I guess the question is, what were you channeling?
12:34That's just him.
12:35No, it's funny, it's because people really respond.
12:37I was in Boston at a birthday party.
12:40And I'm going up to say, this is your town.
12:42You're in my house.
12:42And people are like, what are you doing now?
12:45Mackie, you're messing with my man, Mackie.
12:47And my wife would get so upset because I'd be like, what are you talking about?
12:51I'm not the bad guy.
12:53And people get vested in it.
12:54And, you know, to me, the interesting thing about the arc of Forrest's character is he's a guy who's squeaky clean, really professional, good guy, absolutely a good guy, who in chasing this formidable character gets so completely obsessed and caught up with it that it begins to change the framework of his whole persona.
13:23And that was, I think, what attracted you to the role.
13:26That was what was exciting.
13:27And it was just fascinating for us, I think both of us, obviously, to get the feedback from people.
13:34I mean, I had people come up to me and literally go, how are you going to kill him?
13:41You know?
13:43And this is cops, too.
13:47The cops, they love him so much.
13:48They're like, why do you hate me?
13:50You know?
13:51And actually...
13:53No, I learned a real big lesson in point of view about television because I fully expected people to sort of be torn by, should I root for this guy against Vic or not?
14:06And they weren't torn.
14:07They were rooting for Vic.
14:08And what the lesson to me was, was that if you present a point of view of a person and you make that person human enough, no matter how much bad stuff they do, people will appreciate and grasp onto that humanity and root for them.
14:23And so, you know, I was cataloging the sort of misdeeds that Vic has committed in my head and going, this guy's trying to put him away.
14:31And they're talking about him being the villain and being sadistic and they start overloading and overdoing the adjectives, like sadistic and stuff, when I don't really think that was there.
14:40And it certainly was our intention to be there.
14:42But because the passion for Vic Mackey is so strong, you start demonizing the enemy.
14:48Yeah, when you wrote that episode where, you know, when you were looking at the guy and he's, you think he's dead and they shoot him and then you realize he's not dead.
14:57He's dying and he's saying, help me.
14:59And you like, let him die.
15:01Just let him bleed out.
15:02Colonel Little in the second time.
15:03And everybody still like, was with you.
15:05I was like, okay.
15:08I'm the bad guy.
15:10But they still were with him, you know, so it's kind of cool.
15:13I've had some officers or actually retired officers approach me and say things like, like the good old days, man.
15:28So some of these guys have obviously survived some of it.
15:38That's all I'm going to say.
15:39How much of this show is inspired or based on things in the news?
15:45The thing that I always tell my writers is that you have a bunch of shows that you know, and certainly three shows, the law and order shows, that trumpet it, that they rip from the headlines.
15:55And so what I'm always telling my writers is that if we're ripping our stories out of the headlines, we're going to be ripping the same stories out of the headlines as every other show.
16:02And we're going to start looking like everyone else.
16:04So we get some things through anecdotal reading, but they tend to be very obscure things.
16:11You know, I saw a program on, you know, court TV about a guy in Florida who was raping elderly women.
16:19And that kind of became the inspiration for our elderly rapists in season three.
16:24But it certainly wasn't, you know, something I saw at 1130 at night, you know, on a cable channel.
16:30It wasn't something that was splashed across the front pages of the paper.
16:32So we try to stay away from the big headlines.
16:36And we, you know...
16:38They make it up.
16:39We use our imagination.
16:41We use our imagination as best we can.
16:43Because I am loathe nothing...
16:46A couple times we've done stories, and I've seen similar storylines done on other shows.
16:51And once or twice seen it be on the other show before ours aired, even though we'd already written and shot it.
16:56And it drives me crazy.
16:58And the best way that I know not to have to see someone do a similar story to you is to come up with it on your own where it's not out in the universe at all.
17:08Why are there always so long of a hiatus between each season?
17:12Because we only usually make 13 or 11 or, in this case, 10.
17:17And we try to make them good.
17:18And it takes time to do that.
17:21I suppose you probably set this up, the beauty of that versus if you were doing this show for broadcast.
17:26Yeah.
17:27You know, FX has a certain amount of money that they can spend on their series.
17:31And they want, you know, to do three, four, five, six series that each have, you know, 11 to 13 episodes apiece.
17:37And we're happy to churn out that many in any calendar year.
17:41And I won't have it any other way.
17:44Again, the Sopranos sort of...
17:46I mean, HBO created that model, I think, with doing, like, between 11 and 15 shows.
17:53And I really think it's a brilliant model.
17:55Well, frankly, having worked on network television for a long time, it's a very, very tall order to ask a writing staff to write 22 to 24 hours of television and expect a real high quality for all 22 of those shows.
18:12Plus, the intensity of this show is such that, trust me, when we get to the end of that 13 run, we shouldn't be shooting any more shows at that point.
18:24We just shouldn't.
18:25We're all looking at each other like, hi.
18:28You know, I can't even think.
18:31So, I mean, it's best, you know.
18:33And plus, say, absence makes the heart grow fonder.
18:35I think, you know, as frustrated as it makes people, and people yell at me all the time like I set the programming.
18:42They're like, why are you gone for six months?
18:44I'm like, oh, man, you know.
18:47At least we're not gone for 18 months like the Sopranos is sometimes.
18:50We've always tried to come back in a decent amount of time.
18:53Yeah.
18:54With the handheld camera style, do you do a lot of takes or go straight through a scene before cutting?
19:02And how many cameras are shooting at any one time?
19:05Michael can probably answer that.
19:06Yeah.
19:07We work with a two-camera setup.
19:09This is, we don't even own a dolly, which is amazing.
19:13We use something called a skate dolly, which is an invention by Richie Cantu, who's one of our camera operators.
19:20It's, we affectionately call it the butt dolly.
19:24It's an octagonal piece of wood with heavy-duty hard rubber wheels on it, ball-bearing wheels.
19:31And you can sit a camera operator on it and push him around, or you can have it on a pod so that it's more of a dolly feel.
19:41But it's very quick on the go, and it accommodates our shooting style.
19:47Of course, you know, Clark Johnson set the tone as far as the way we shoot the show, which was very docudrama.
19:53And one of the things that he talked about the first day on set is he wanted the camera to be reactive.
19:57He didn't want ever to see an operator know that you were going to say a line and go to you in anticipation of you saying the line.
20:08He wanted it to be like there was a fifth man in the room, sort of, you know, and you start talking, and what?
20:15Oh, oh, now you're talking?
20:17You know, that kind of, so that it gives you that electric, this is happening for the first time feel.
20:23And oftentimes, it is happening for the first time.
20:26Along those lines, Chick Egley, who is a writer on the show, and he started his career on St. Elsewhere and did, you know, L.A. Law and NYPD Blue, co-created Murder One and Dark Angel.
20:36I mean, he's literally like the television historian for us.
20:39I'll never forget the first episode that he wrote where he was on set.
20:43He came back that day, and he came into the writers' room and looked at her days.
20:46They said, are you all right?
20:47He said, yeah, but I just watched Michael Chiklis run into the middle of an uncontrolled street, winding his way through traffic, with Billy the cameraman just following him.
21:00And he'd never seen anything like that before.
21:02We went right into traffic.
21:04You know, you have to understand, we do these, we don't have any lockup.
21:09We don't have any budget.
21:10So we don't have, like, this controlled situation, and we probably shouldn't even talk about this, really.
21:19But we found ways to make it work in our advantage.
21:23These scenes feel, you know, more authentic.
21:25They feel better.
21:26You know, I learned something.
21:27I think it was a season two.
21:29Michael had a very intense scene.
21:31I remember being on the set watching.
21:33I can't remember exactly what the scene was.
21:34But when the director's cut came out, I remember there was one take particularly that I really loved.
21:40And that take wasn't in there.
21:43And I wrote to the editor.
21:45I said, no, no, Michael had a better take than that.
21:47And he said, very intense.
21:48I want to see that.
21:49And the next cut that came, a different take was in, but it wasn't it.
21:52And it was driving me crazy because I'd seen it with my eyes.
21:56There was a specific thing I was looking for.
21:58And then I go in, and my editor was like, no, I've shown you the best things.
22:02Nothing else is there.
22:03And I said, no, it is there.
22:04And I made him run through everything.
22:06And I found the take.
22:07And the reason why he hadn't used it was in the middle, there was a film problem where,
22:12like, it was as if, like, the sprockets had sort of missed, like, a thread or two.
22:16And things got screwed up for a second.
22:19And I learned something, which was the best performance matters.
22:21I said, put that in.
22:23Because if it was a documentary and you were catching a moment happening, you wouldn't throw
22:29it out just because a second was sort of screwed up and looking weird.
22:32Forrest, what was it like for you?
22:34Did it feel like, I'm not sure about the television that you've done before, did it feel like you
22:38just jumped on this fast-moving train?
22:41Well, yeah, I guess, I mean, because they all were close.
22:44They're a family.
22:45You know, and I'm coming in.
22:46I'm new.
22:46You know, and I think we did, I went to a read-through and then just went in and started to do it.
22:52So, yeah, it was, but that was kind of, you know, I wanted, as an artist, I was looking
22:58to try to find something to be fresh and to, like, discover and to not know always what was happening.
23:04I mean, and this experience was allowing me to try out some things, too, you know, and
23:08they were already in a pocket of something, even though it was always strong for them
23:13to have a pocket, which gives me comfort to be able to explore.
23:18It's not like everybody's, like, you know, they're exploring their performances, their
23:22characters, they're stretching their characters, but it's all new for me.
23:25And so I have the comfort zone of being, you know, amongst people who are linked, you know?
23:30One question I want to ask you, Sean, this show, the ratings have stayed pretty consistent.
23:38It probably could be stronger.
23:40Unfortunately, you know, the growth has just hit a plateau, and yet you continually receive,
23:45you know, great acclaim from critics, the shout-outs from, you know, the awards community.
23:50Which would you rather have?
23:52Would you rather have a show that does stellar ratings and doesn't necessarily get the love
23:57from the press or what you have now?
23:59I can't complain about what we have now at all.
24:02I mean, I kind of feel that our television show is the equivalent of, you know, your favorite
24:09band in college that you know that your parents haven't heard of, and you know a lot of your
24:13friends that, you know, went to the community college in town, haven't heard of, and you
24:18know they make that.
24:19It was like, I think being a fan of our show is like being a fan of R.E.M.
24:23in 1982, you know, which I was.
24:29And you take the sort of pride that there's almost something you like that not everyone
24:36is totally into it.
24:37And, you know, maybe this is rationalization on my part, but I kind of feel like if we
24:44had these huge cable ratings that were in need of protection, that maybe we wouldn't take
24:48the chances that we take.
24:50And that maybe the stories and the characters wouldn't quite be as edgy and interesting.
24:55So, you know, this is it.
24:57Oh, oh, I got to say something about ratings because, you know, look, I was on a show called
25:03The Commission for five years, and that was doing 22 shares on Saturday night.
25:09And I could go and get milk, and it wouldn't take me an hour and a half.
25:15I have a, you know, ratings, I have a real, I don't really have an incredible amount of
25:24faith in the rating system.
25:27And I have to say, those rating points, I don't think account for whole dormitories having
25:34Tuesday night shield nights where there's a hundred eyeballs on a single television set
25:40or whole military installations who have begged me to send them DVDs because they sit in a
25:49theater and watch the show.
25:51I don't think it accounts for those sort of mass audiences that the show sort of, there are
25:58shield parties going on all over the place that I've become aware of only because of the fans.
26:04And all I know is that if I had any anonymity before, it's gone.
26:09Because of Vic's obvious and deliberate crimes, are you seeking a last season of full redemption
26:14or of operatic revenge?
26:16How long can you go without him paying for all his deeds?
26:20You know, what I will say is I don't feel handcuffed that it all has to be about getting Vic Mackey
26:28or killing Vic Mackey, not that those aren't two possibilities.
26:33You know, I will just give this hint that one of my all-time favorite movies is Crimes and
26:36Misdemeanors, in which Martin Landau sort of, you know, walks away from a murder.
26:43That's a big hint.
26:44Well, no, I'm not saying that that's what we're going to do, but to me, the range that
26:48you can work in and be artistically true goes from Martin Landau walking away completely
26:53to, you know, to Bonnie and Clyde, you know, death in a hail of gunfire.
27:01And there's everything in between.
27:03So I don't feel that there's only one ending that can be written, that it's about, or two
27:08endings that's only about redemption or it's only about vengeance.
27:12I think there's a lot of little subtle alleyways in between.
27:16That's Sean's way of saying, he doesn't know yet.
27:21So do you don't know what the, do you know what the last scene of the show is?
27:26Do you know how the show will end right now?
27:29Well, what I always say is I have ideas and that I, and that I give myself the, always
27:36give myself the opportunity to change it.
27:37I have in my mind a sort of last image and a last song.
27:42A song.
27:42You have the song in your head already.
27:44Yes.
27:45Really?
27:46Obviously, you haven't shared it with him.
27:48Is it pounding or is it a bowing?
27:51If you've got a secret and you want it kept, tell him.
27:56Because he's good.
27:57I will only say that it's a sort of, not a very well-known song by a very iconic LA band
28:03that I've wanted to have music of theirs on the show for a while and I never have.
28:07You never have.
28:08Do they know this, by the way, this band?
28:10No, if they did, they'd jack up the price.
28:11Now, can you tease these two gentlemen?
28:15What will we see between the two?
28:20Well, I think that they share something in common going into the season premiere, which
28:24is that they want the killer of Curtis Lemonhead Lemansky brought to some kind of justice.
28:32Their ideas of justice are probably a little bit different.
28:35And their ideas of who's responsible for it are probably a little different.
28:40Well, let's think.
28:41Do you feel the show should end soon?
28:44Do you feel like it's got another couple of years?
28:46You know something, I don't know about a couple of years.
28:51I don't know.
28:54I, yes, I feel that it has legs.
28:58I definitely do.
29:00I mean, if I felt that it was weakening and that there wasn't a tremendous amount of excitement
29:07on set every day, then I wouldn't want to continue with it either, because we just, I think we
29:15all are of a mind that we never want it to go beneath a certain bar.
29:20It's like, you know, it's our little baby.
29:23We want it to have a beginning, a middle, and an end, and to see it through to its fruition.
29:29And I think that we're all committed to that.
29:33However, having said that, I still think that it's very, very strong.
29:37So, yes, I do think we have some stories left to tell.
29:41How many that is, I don't know.
Be the first to comment