Marc Maron has made a career out of brutal honesty both on stage, on his podcast, and in life. In the premiere episode of Esquire's new video podcast, “What I’ve Learned,” the comedian, actor, and ‘WTF’ host sits down with Editor-in-Chief Michael Sebastian to reflect on three decades of lessons in art, addiction, grief, and growth. From his role in the upcoming Bruce Springsteen biopic 'Deliver Me From Nowhere' to his complicated friendship with Louis C.K. and ongoing feud with Jon Stewart, Maron opens up about aging, ego, and what it really means to evolve.
Listen to the final episode of #WTFPod here: https://www.wtfpod.com/
Stream ‘Marc Maron: Panicked’ on HBO Max.
'Deliver Me from Nowhere' is in theaters October 24th.
#MarcMaron #Panicked #DeliverMefromNowhere #WhatIveLearned #Esquire
Listen to the final episode of #WTFPod here: https://www.wtfpod.com/
Stream ‘Marc Maron: Panicked’ on HBO Max.
'Deliver Me from Nowhere' is in theaters October 24th.
#MarcMaron #Panicked #DeliverMefromNowhere #WhatIveLearned #Esquire
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LifestyleTranscript
00:00The only rules of comedy, the only context is you should be funny.
00:04Do you ever regret not having kids?
00:05No, never a day.
00:07What's with this feud that you seem to have with Jon Stewart?
00:09I identify it as just fully fueled by insecurity.
00:13Whose insecurity?
00:14Mine.
00:14What have you learned from being divorced twice?
00:16Just give him the money.
00:22Hi, I'm Michael Sebastian, editor-in-chief of Esquire.
00:24Today I'm joined by a multi-hyphenate who has been in the industry for more than three decades.
00:28From his groundbreaking WTF podcast, to raw, introspective comedy specials like End Times Fun and his latest, Panicked.
00:35To his role in the upcoming Bruce Springsteen biopic, Deliver Me From Nowhere.
00:38He's made a career out of brutal honesty, turning neurosis, grief, and rage into something that feels like connection.
00:44Please welcome Mark Maron.
00:46Something that feels like connection.
00:48I'll take it.
00:51So, Panicked is your latest stand-up special.
00:54Yeah.
00:54And there's a line that you have in it.
00:58In which you say, basically, how does it feel that we liberals annoyed America into fascism?
01:04Progressives have really got to figure out how to deal with this buzzkill problem.
01:12I know these are important issues, but you do realize we annoyed the average American into fascism.
01:19You do realize that.
01:20I'm curious.
01:23Do you think liberals have always been annoying, or did something change in the way that liberals communicate that has kind of created this effect?
01:30That line about, you know, we've succeeded in annoying the average American into fascism came to me, you know, like a week or two before I taped.
01:38Really?
01:38And it's a really powerful bit.
01:41It is.
01:41It's a funny bit.
01:42Yeah.
01:42But it's like, it's a real kind of, it brings a lot of things together.
01:46You know, you've been a good liberal, like, you know, most of your life, if not all of your life, right?
01:49You were on Air America.
01:50You know, you've got this long track record of that.
01:52But I spoke to them critically in a way that they could laugh at themselves.
01:57And that's good.
01:58Yeah.
01:58You know, coming from me, it's going to work.
01:59Yeah.
02:00But also, like, you know, it was pretty clear to tell them that I had no solutions, and I don't know how much hope there is.
02:04But you have to acknowledge what's happening.
02:07I don't know that there's ever been really an organized, you know, on the same page American left, you know, probably since the 30s, right?
02:15And I think that because there's no unified left, they kind of build their life around the righteousness that drives the issue that they're the most interested.
02:22Yeah.
02:23And I think that in of itself, as a point of conversation, you know, can become a little annoying.
02:29Yeah.
02:30I mean, my favorite part of Panicked is at the very end when you do the Taylor Swift thing.
02:33And, in fact, you should do a whole album of, like, Taylor Swift covers or something like that.
02:38That would be funny.
02:38Because I feel like your audience would basically be, like, middle-aged dads of girls who love Taylor Swift, right?
02:44That's an interesting idea because is that guy, am I still going to meet with that guy from Decca?
02:48Yeah.
02:48Yeah, there's someone who wants to make a record.
02:50Yeah.
02:50Yeah, because I've been playing music a long time, yeah.
02:52Yeah, but that was just a great version of it.
02:54But you've wanted to have her on your show, is what I understand.
02:57Sure.
02:58If she was on your show, what is, like, the main thing you would want to ask her?
03:01I think a lot of people take for granted, you know, the job we do in entertainment.
03:06You know, just sort of like, ah, she's just a singer, whatever.
03:08Right.
03:09You know, I spoke to Ariana Grande.
03:10I mean, and these, you know, these are just people.
03:12Do you know what the weight of playing an arena is, you know, night after night to put on that show, to deliver that for that type of fandom?
03:24Yeah.
03:24I mean, it's an immense, almost inhuman job.
03:29Yeah.
03:29To hold that space.
03:31You know, I don't know that you can explain the magic of how they do that.
03:34Right.
03:35Other than they're hard workers.
03:36But if you explore their past, at least you can fill in, you know, what's, you know, at the root of that amazing use of talent and power.
03:47So there isn't a specific question.
03:48You just want to kind of hear the whole story, in other words.
03:51I don't know there's any magic question that I'm going to ask Taylor Swift that's going to, you know, answer, you know, who is Taylor Swift, why.
03:58Yeah.
03:59But I think over an evolving conversation, you can sort of get a vibe.
04:03Yeah.
04:03That's a good point.
04:05Okay, so in Panicked, you talk about the manosphere, which is this sort of, actually, you define the manosphere for us.
04:13Well, I think the manosphere, like, I think it's a collective, a tribal collective of mostly men who felt threatened, you know, by the way culture was going.
04:24They felt, you know, kind of pushed aside that they didn't have a voice.
04:28Yeah.
04:28And now you have them as a dominant, you know, voice within the culture, because I think they were turned out by right-wing, you know, propaganda.
04:40I want to pay you a compliment on that front, though, because I feel like the manosphere, one of the things that it grew out of, Me Too movement explodes into view.
04:47You know, very necessary, right?
04:48But there's a moment where, like, a lot of well-meaning progressive men kind of receded and said, you know what, we don't need to talk right now.
04:54And it was very well-intentioned, but at the same time, you had a whole kind of generation of young men that are like, well, okay, well, wait a second, how do we navigate this space?
05:04And there were no good voices necessarily to guide them through that, so all of these, you know, kind of grifters and bad actors kind of stepped in there.
05:12You, on the other hand, though, you were there, you know what I mean?
05:15And you were continuing to, I think, be a voice for that kind of positive masculinity.
05:19You know, I think men in general were afraid, and I think younger men, you know, didn't know how to navigate, you know, interpersonal relationships with women.
05:29And they don't know anyways.
05:31Yeah.
05:31So it just added a layer of complexity.
05:32Made all the more awkward.
05:33Yeah.
05:34Made them nervous.
05:35Made them scared.
05:36Yeah.
05:36And, you know, it's like, is it okay if I, do I consent to talk?
05:40Yeah.
05:40And so the anti-woke bunch, you know, locked into that, and there was pushback.
05:45You know, I used to do a joke about that.
05:46I think I'm about 85% woke, and the other 15% I keep to myself, and that's really what woke is.
05:53Yeah, right.
05:54Is that there was this idea on, you know, the anti-woke flank that, you know, don't censor yourself at all.
06:01Right.
06:02And it's like, no, that's how civilization works.
06:04Right.
06:05You know, we don't say a lot of words anymore.
06:06Right, exactly.
06:07Because it's out of respect.
06:09You know, once you start normalizing this language, just because you're upset, you can't say retard anymore.
06:13Yeah.
06:13You know, however they defend it, like, you know, yeah, but I'm not using it like that.
06:17It's just a word.
06:18But once you normalize that word again, the damage that it has on an interpersonal level or on a smaller level with kids in school, with mentally challenged people, with families of mentally challenged people, that once that word just becomes normalized after they'd spent all these years, you know, looking for the respect so they could have them or their child fit into the world without shame is gone.
06:39Yeah.
06:39Look, I've taken my hits and I've learned my lessons from, you know, they're hard-learned things, you know, if you're an asshole.
06:46Yeah.
06:46And to sort of get vulnerable and, you know, understand why you're an asshole as opposed to double down on being an asshole is a choice.
06:54It is a choice.
06:55Is there a word that you feel like you can't say that you're like, you know what, it's kind of a funny word or it's an effective word?
07:01A lot of times there's reasons why these words are offensive, and I think you can say whatever word you want, but there's a redundancy and a hackneyed element to it if you just repeat it for that effect.
07:13I mean, is your whole life and act hinging on, you know, tranny?
07:18Right.
07:18I mean, like, what is that?
07:19Right.
07:20Those words, some of them, you know, specifically the R word, is something we grew up with, and it's something that, you know, has a certain way to it.
07:27And it's very common to you if you're of a certain age that you're going to say retard.
07:33And you may still say it, you know, with your friends or whatever, but I understand from exploring that word on stage, you know, in a full bit, like, you know, why can we not say it?
07:46And then somebody, you know, came up to me and said, you know, I know that you think you're exploring something, but, you know, my son's mentally challenged.
07:57And it is hurtful and difficult, you know, for everybody around a person like that.
08:04And oddly, like, literally that same night, I went to see a concert, and behind me was, you know, a mentally challenged kid, grown up.
08:13And, you know, it was like, yeah, he was having a great time, you know.
08:15And then standing next to him was his father, I guess, who just had this look of, like, you know, it's a hard life.
08:23Right, right.
08:23You know, and, you know, and we do the best we can.
08:27And I don't know, between those two events, I'm like, I get it.
08:30With me and words, it's like, you let go of words.
08:33I mean, like, don't say it.
08:34I don't need it.
08:35Yep.
08:36So that's that.
08:36Yeah.
08:37I'm going to ask you a question.
08:38I don't want you to think about it too much.
08:39Just kind of spit it out.
08:41If you didn't know how old you are, how old are you right now?
08:45I don't know, 43.
08:4643, yeah?
08:47Okay, all right.
08:48Is there something that happened at 43 that kind of, like, makes you think that way?
08:53Or is it just, like, your body feels 43?
08:55I never really felt that life was going by quickly.
08:58You know, when you're in it, you're like, it's kind of plodding by.
09:00Yeah, yeah.
09:01You know, every day.
09:02Yeah.
09:03But then what happens is all of a sudden, like, you know, it's like, oh, my God, how am I the oldest guy in the room?
09:07Right.
09:08Like, I thought all these guys were my peers.
09:09They're all 20 years younger than me.
09:11What was I thinking?
09:12Yeah.
09:12You know, Mulaney or Nate or these guys.
09:14I just always saw them as my peers.
09:16Right.
09:16All of a sudden, you hit 60, and you're like, you guys are 40 what?
09:19You know, when did that happen?
09:21Right.
09:22Because I really kind of manifested very late, you know?
09:25Yeah, yeah.
09:26I mean, the podcast and whatever sort of audience I was able to build happened in my 40s.
09:31Yeah.
09:31So I think that, you know, in my mind, some part of me is still in my 40s, and I don't think that ever really went away.
09:36Yeah.
09:37So let's talk about the show for a minute.
09:38Why bring it to an end?
09:3916 years.
09:40What's your thinking there?
09:41Well, 16 years.
09:43You're tired.
09:45Are you tired?
09:45Is that what it is?
09:46Yeah.
09:46I think we're tired on a level that it's sort of-
09:50Existential?
09:52A little.
09:52It's not hard to explain.
09:54But, you know, like I said, you know, Brendan McDonald, my producer, and I have been working together in one way or another in audio since 2004.
10:01Right.
10:02There were podcasters before me, and there were podcasters when I started.
10:05But in terms of the medium becoming relevant and profitable, you know, we were there to watch that build around us.
10:13Yeah.
10:13There was no reason for us to get to a point where we were autopiloting or just kind of, you know, walking through the paces.
10:20Yeah.
10:21Yeah, because you do develop a style over time, and there is a way to fake it.
10:25But, you know, part of the decision was, why would we want to get to that point?
10:30Why do we need to do that?
10:32Why do we need to keep going if, you know, part of us is exhausted and there's part of me that, you know, I want to have my life back in a way.
10:39Yeah.
10:39Because I also, I mean, the show is really about me and the arc of my life, and then people enter into that.
10:46Yeah.
10:46But, you know, people who listen to it and listen to the monologues and move through it have seen me move through almost everything one can in life other than the birth of a child.
10:56Right.
10:56Because I don't have that.
10:58But the death of a partner, cats coming and going, you know, women coming and going, you know, career things coming and going, my own, you know, sort of personal anxieties and mental health coming up.
11:08You know, I've arrived at this place where I can, you know, own myself and be okay with myself.
11:14And maybe now I'd kind of like to enjoy that without, you know, putting so much of myself into it and out there because there is kind of an emotional responsibility.
11:26Yeah.
11:26Don't take this the wrong way, but you seem to me like a guy who is going to have a hard time enjoying it.
11:31No, I acknowledge that, but I do know that we've given ourselves enough time to process this.
11:39And the bigger part of me, you know, feels like it is the right decision.
11:43Yeah.
11:43And another reason, like by stopping it, we have sort of guaranteed its place as a body of work.
11:48Yeah.
11:49It's not a disposable show.
11:50We're not just, you know, three dudes on a mic talking about the last time we crapped our pants as at us.
11:54Right, right, right.
11:55It's not afternoon radio.
11:56What is, in your opinion, the most underrated episode of WTF?
12:00There have been some that I think have been deeply disturbing and provocative.
12:05Such as?
12:06Well, Todd Hanson, you know, from The Onion, who was the original kind of, you know, editor of The Onion when it really became successful.
12:14I wanted to interview him because he was in my world, you know, comedy.
12:17And we set up an interview.
12:18I was in Brooklyn.
12:19I was sort of at, I think it was like a Holiday Inn in Brooklyn.
12:22And after we turned the mics off, he's like, you know, I know you didn't know this.
12:26I've been to this hotel before.
12:27And the last time I was at this hotel, I tried to commit suicide.
12:31So, like, I didn't know that.
12:32And I couldn't have known that.
12:33But he had attempted to kill himself in that hotel.
12:37And then I said, if you ever want to talk about that, let's do another sit down.
12:41I don't remember how long it took, but he decided to do it.
12:44And so that episode, the second part of that, it's two conversations.
12:48And in the second part, he walks me through the events that led to it and what happened in that hotel.
12:53So, in terms of life experience and getting into that type of vulnerability and that experience, that's pretty heavy.
13:03Yeah.
13:03The Louis C.K. episode from, I think it's like 2010 was named.
13:06The two-parter.
13:07The two-parter, yeah.
13:08That's like ranked by Slate.
13:09Before there was 10,000 podcasts.
13:11Yeah, the best episode ever.
13:12And it's really good.
13:14What's your recollection of that one considering it's considered, you know, among the best?
13:17You know, I felt like he was doing me a favor.
13:20I'm like, can we just do my thing?
13:21He's like, yeah, okay, I'll do your thing, whatever.
13:22And then we just got into it, you know.
13:24So, my recollection was that, you know, he was going to tell me, you know, why our relationship was strained.
13:29We kind of resolved some things around his point of view of what was happening.
13:34It showed a different side.
13:35And I think there was a lot of levity along with the, you know, kind of conflict resolution.
13:40You guys aren't close anymore?
13:41No, because, like, he, you know, after he went down for, you know, his transgressions, because of that podcast, or those two podcasts, you know, we are connected in the public sphere.
13:54The New York Times piece came out on a Sunday.
13:59And, you know, it caught fire, of course.
14:01We had to address it.
14:02So, we were on the road somewhere.
14:05I can't remember where.
14:05And we had to sit down with the gear and figure it out.
14:10You know, basically, the thrust of it was, you know, I didn't know the scope of this, you know, and he's, you know, he fucked up.
14:15But I'm his friend, and, you know, and I will be his friend if he needs a friend through this, you know.
14:20I think the tagline on it was, like, you know, he lied to me, you know, about the depth of this situation, you know.
14:26I don't even know if he listened to it, but I think that I wasn't willing, nor was anybody, really, to go down with him or to necessarily die on that hill with him in terms of defending his behavior.
14:41That I think he felt like I betrayed him somehow.
14:44You know, that was it.
14:45You know, we no longer talked.
14:48And then, you know, years later, you know, I got a weird email from him, you know, addressing, you know, the work of my partner, Lynn, who had passed away, you know, that he had seen a movie and whatever.
15:01And that, you know, it was awkwardly phrased, but he said, look, if you ever want to talk, you know, I'm open to that.
15:07And, you know, I said, look, you know, I'd love to talk to you.
15:10We've both been through a lot of shit and whatever.
15:12And I'm not going to really frame the language that he used because it's not particularly flattering.
15:18It's a little peculiar.
15:19And I wrote back.
15:20I said, yeah, I'm willing to talk, but I'm not going to address, you know, how I handled your problem.
15:26You know, that's done.
15:28You know, if you want to start from here, okay.
15:31He goes, well, I don't know if that's possible.
15:34All right, well, that's, you know, that's, then this is what it is.
15:38But oddly, actually, I don't know why it's oddly.
15:42Yeah, I was at the Comedy Cellar a few months ago.
15:45Chris Rock was there.
15:46Louie was there.
15:48Darren Aronofsky was there for some reason.
15:50A couple of guys from my L.A. bunch.
15:53Everyone was there, you know, and it was the table thing.
15:55You know, you sit at the back table.
15:57So, and Louie was there, and I was sitting there.
15:59And, you know, he comes in, and I'm like, all right, well, this is going to be what it's going to be.
16:04But I'm not moving.
16:06But, you know, he's completely pleasant.
16:08And, you know, it's like, so, you know, I was talking.
16:11He's like, what were you saying?
16:12Like, it was completely gone.
16:14Yeah.
16:14So, you know, and it happened once at the Comedy Store.
16:17So, that's that.
16:18Yeah.
16:19You know, we're okay.
16:21I wouldn't say we're friends anymore, but, you know, the tension is not there.
16:25You love a callback in your comedy.
16:27You also like this idea, though, of the snake eating itself.
16:30I feel like I've seen you, I've heard you talk about that.
16:32I've seen you write about it in your book.
16:33I recently did a joke on stage about the manosphere, about the Ouroboros.
16:39Right, eating their own balls or something like that.
16:41Yeah, yeah, yeah.
16:41What is the manosphere?
16:42That's the totality of the manosphere, the cock eating its own balls.
16:46But I feel like having Louie on your show in this last final stretch would be like, you know, that callback, that sort of, you know, snake.
16:53Yeah, I don't think it can happen, though.
16:55You know, how he frames what happened and whether or not it's really approachable or whether or not he'd want to approach that.
17:00Because, like, you know, if I had him on, it would be my responsibility to kind of cover our relationship in relation to that.
17:07Yeah.
17:07And since then, that, like, I think he's got it framed in a way that, you know, he can live with, whether you think it's correct or not.
17:14You know, whether he would, you know, kind of double down on his position or whether, you know, I don't know what I'd get there.
17:20Yeah.
17:20In relation to what's going on in the world.
17:22I don't think it's a valid or necessary thing to do.
17:27Yeah.
17:28So, you mentioned that you started to make money from this, right?
17:30And I'm curious.
17:32The podcast?
17:33Yeah.
17:33And, you know, obviously.
17:34All the other stuff?
17:35Yeah.
17:35Yeah.
17:36How does money change a person?
17:37Being rich and living a rich lifestyle is just not in my brain.
17:43Hmm.
17:43Like, I don't, like, you know, I don't even have kids.
17:45You know, I got money and I got nowhere to go with it.
17:48You know, like, in my will, like, there's a big chunk of money where I'm like, I just, you know, I left it to Brendan to give to the appropriate charity.
17:57Oh, that's nice.
17:58Yeah.
17:58And, you know, a couple of friends.
17:59Cats?
18:00What are you going to do with the cats?
18:01I just got to get them somewhere.
18:03Yeah.
18:04You know, and I should probably revise it a little bit in terms of where they go.
18:08But the way it changed my life, to be honest with you, is I don't have to worry about it anymore.
18:14I like knowing that, you know, I don't have to really check the prices of groceries.
18:19Sure.
18:19I can eat wherever I want.
18:21Mm-hmm.
18:21You know, I can, you know, fly comfortably.
18:23Yeah.
18:24You know, I can help friends who need money if I have to.
18:27Yeah.
18:28You know, I haven't gotten past that place in terms of, like, well, buy a nice car.
18:32I'm driving a 2019 Avalon because I like it.
18:35Doing comedy at the beginning, it's sparse, dude.
18:37And when you got a chunk of money, whether it was for a deal with a network that didn't
18:41go anywhere, it's like, okay, so I'm good for a little while.
18:44Yeah.
18:44Yeah.
18:45And I still have that mindset.
18:46Hmm.
18:47Yeah.
18:47And I should probably get out of it.
18:49You know what I mean?
18:49You should buy a new car or something.
18:51I don't know.
18:51My friend made me buy this watch.
18:53What kind of watch?
18:54It's Omega Speedmaster.
18:55Oh, it's a great watch.
18:56That's a great watch.
18:57Yeah.
18:57Classic, right?
18:58You got to wind it, though.
18:59It's so funny.
18:59My girlfriend is like, doesn't it just wind itself?
19:01I'm like, no, this is how a watch it needs to be.
19:03Yeah.
19:03How much is too much to pay for a pair of socks?
19:06Yeah, that's the other thing.
19:07Like, you know, like, I just order socks.
19:10Like, I do.
19:11But that's another thing.
19:11I buy things.
19:13Like, this guy makes boots, Brian the Bootmaker down in LA.
19:18And I'm like, I'm a boot guy.
19:19I'm kind of like a jeans guy.
19:22Like, I finally landed on something.
19:24I never thought I'd be a silver bracelet, old man, but I seem to be that.
19:27Okay, so I want to shift gears here for a second, and I want to talk about grief.
19:30This is something that you have explored a lot.
19:32What have you learned from grief?
19:34That everybody is on the grief spectrum just by human nature.
19:42Right.
19:43It's just not unusual.
19:45Mm-hmm.
19:47That you can avoid it.
19:49Right.
19:49You can try, and that might twist your personality into something, you know, bad or tragic.
19:57Yeah.
19:58But everyone's going to deal with loss.
20:00And, you know, you hope it's not tragic.
20:03It's nice if there's an arc to it that makes sense and that it is, you know, something you can process.
20:09But, you know, everyone's going to die, you know?
20:12And a lot of people are going to die alone.
20:14And a lot of people are going to die in hospitals.
20:17You've been to a hospital?
20:18Mm-hmm.
20:18It's fucking horrendous.
20:19Yeah.
20:20It's not great.
20:20And there's a reason why people don't want to talk about it.
20:23Yeah.
20:23You know, our fear of death is, you know, is what drives almost everything.
20:28Yeah.
20:29Capitalism, you know, you know, malignant politics.
20:32I mean, in-
20:33We buy stuff so that we can forget that we're going to die, right?
20:36I mean, the whole thing.
20:37Yeah.
20:37Yeah.
20:37Yeah.
20:37But I think what I learned from it is that it isn't unusual.
20:41It's a guarantee.
20:44Yeah.
20:44I do believe that as humans, you know, through tradition, culture, and just reality,
20:49reality, that I do think we can handle it.
20:51And I think that other people can handle it.
20:53You know, sometimes just, you know, sitting with you or sitting with somebody, if they're
20:58experiencing something, is really enough.
21:00Just to show up as a person in somebody's, you know, dark time is sort of an amazing service.
21:08And I think it's actually kind of innate.
21:11But I also think just acknowledging the reality of it and trying to wrestle with your own sense
21:17of mortality.
21:17Because when you lose somebody tragically, you know, it's devastating.
21:22But you also really realize that how fragile the thing is.
21:26Yeah.
21:26And acting in relationship to a deep awareness of it and having some sort of, you know, mature
21:33acceptance of it, which I don't think I have.
21:36Yeah, you don't?
21:37I don't think so.
21:38No?
21:39No, because you don't want to die.
21:42This is true.
21:43Yes.
21:43But it's going to happen.
21:44Yeah.
21:45Yeah.
21:45And you can say like, yeah, it's going to happen.
21:47But if you really think about it, I mean, you know, then you get into the whole spiritual
21:50realm.
21:51You know, what's going to get you through that?
21:52Right.
21:52What do you think happens to us when we die?
21:54Not much.
21:56Really?
21:56That's it?
21:57Just black?
21:58Yeah.
21:59But lately, I've been thinking like, is that so bad?
22:01You are.
22:02But you are like.
22:03I mean, like, don't we all need a nap for a while?
22:05It's true, right?
22:06I mean, you've been doing the podcast for 16 years, right?
22:08Yeah.
22:08You could use a rest.
22:09Yeah.
22:09But you.
22:09I don't want that rest.
22:11But yeah.
22:12You do seem like a mystical, I don't want to use the term spiritual guy, right?
22:16But like, you wrote a whole book about the Jerusalem, you know?
22:19Yeah, yeah.
22:20And so, I don't know if I believe you necessarily.
22:23The poetry of mysticism, whether it's real or not, doesn't matter.
22:29It's part of processing.
22:32Yeah, yeah.
22:32That, and I do think it's poetic, that, you know, why not think that?
22:36Oh, sure, right?
22:37Yeah.
22:37Because it's beautiful.
22:39Yeah.
22:40But like, usually, I'll go mystical when I'm, you know, terrified.
22:43You know, but I don't go traditional mystical.
22:46You know, I'm not, I don't think I'm going to have a come to Jesus moment.
22:49There's still time.
22:50You never know.
22:50Right.
22:51You can do it right at the end.
22:52Yeah.
22:52That's the, that is.
22:53It's a beautiful thing about the Christian trip.
22:55It's like, okay, I'm sorry.
22:56Can I get in?
22:59And then you're fine.
23:00Yeah, yeah, yeah.
23:01I'm curious, what was your relationship to God when you were, say, six years old compared
23:06to what it might be now?
23:07Look, I'm more than happy to entertain the totality of things in the universe and that
23:12there is some sort of inherent pattern or intelligence to it.
23:17I can go there.
23:18Yeah.
23:18But to be honest with you, there's not this part of me that like, it's like, I got to
23:22find it.
23:23Yeah, yeah, yeah.
23:24But when I was younger, you know, we grew up kind of conservative Jewish as a kind of
23:28middle-class American Jew, you know, no one taught us how to use God.
23:34You know, like, you know, there's a practical element to Christianity.
23:37It's like, you know, Jesus died for you.
23:39You know, here's the process to get forgiven.
23:41Yeah.
23:41And move through your life with your flaws as long as you stay right with Jesus.
23:45You know, the Jewish God, it's sort of like, you need to understand the language.
23:49The stories are very vast.
23:50And, you know, there may be lessons in there, but as a six-year-old, you know, I was never
23:54taught to fear God or have a relationship with God.
23:58You know, it was just not given to me.
24:00Yeah.
24:00You referred to your relationship with your dad as like the most toxic in your life.
24:05I think so.
24:06In terms of the beginning of things.
24:08Yeah, yeah.
24:08What have you learned from your dad?
24:10That eventually you'll forget everything.
24:14Whatever heinous transgressions you did as a parent or adult, like eventually come down
24:21to like, yeah, I don't remember that.
24:23If you're lucky, you'll forget it all.
24:26Yeah.
24:26If you're unlucky, you'll forget it all.
24:28Yeah, it's a catch-22, I guess.
24:31Well, you know, once, you know, the reconciliation kind of came, you know, in terms of the way
24:39we butted heads, he was always a pretty charismatic guy.
24:41And I think I always, you know, had a certain amount of love for him, but it wasn't, you know,
24:49there were periods of time, years sometimes where I wouldn't engage with him and I would
24:52fight with him.
24:53You know, I would push back a lot at different points in my life.
24:57I would take him on.
24:58But also, he was sort of my best audience.
25:00The interesting thing about narcissists, they will have any kind of tension.
25:03Sure, yeah.
25:04You know, as long as it's about them.
25:06And so he was a pretty good audience for me because I could really bust his balls right
25:09to his face.
25:10And over time, what happened is I kind of won, is that, you know, if you have a narcissistic
25:16parent, they kind of see you as an appendage, you know, and once they start to lose control,
25:20they'll fight.
25:21Yeah.
25:21And then eventually, you know, if you cut it, you know, they're going to have to reckon
25:26with you as a person.
25:27Sure.
25:28Yeah.
25:28You've been divorced twice.
25:30Yeah.
25:30What have you learned from being divorced twice?
25:33Just give them the money.
25:36Yeah.
25:38Please, whatever you think you're fighting for, if you're the one with the money, you
25:42can't win.
25:43Just give them the money.
25:44You'll probably make it back.
25:46But you're the only one who can stop it.
25:48Well, I learned that I'm not great at relationships.
25:52You learned that, you know, drama is, you know, a way to avoid intimacy.
25:59Even when you, you know, both end up crying, that doesn't mean you're being intimate.
26:02It just means you're devastating each other.
26:04So I still don't quite know how to allow an intimacy that I don't feel is threatening
26:11somehow.
26:12And that's just because I was, you know, brought up by, you know, emotionally needy kind of
26:17boundaryless people.
26:19Yeah.
26:19So, you know, repair is in progress.
26:21I might get it done.
26:23I don't know.
26:23It's a big project.
26:25What is the difference between sex and love?
26:28Well, you certainly don't need love for sex.
26:31There you go.
26:32I think that ultimately sex, like anything else that feels good, can become, you know,
26:38a compulsion more than, you know, something that represents emotion in a love way.
26:48Yeah.
26:48Yeah.
26:49Right.
26:49And I think that's always been the big problem with it, but also the great beauty of it.
26:54Yeah.
26:54Is the Marc Maron that we see on stage and here on WTF the same Marc Maron who's talking
27:00to friends and family and so on?
27:02You know, I'm weird.
27:03I can be pretty vulnerable and open-hearted with strangers, you know, when they come over
27:06for an hour.
27:07And I can actually be, you know, kind of more open in some ways with audiences than I can
27:11in interpersonal relationships.
27:12There are guys, like some people think I'm intimidating or aloof or, you know, intense
27:17or, you know, whatever.
27:18They're, you know, they're nervous to talk to me, you know, out in the world.
27:22But there are people that know me that just instinctively, you know, mostly comics, because
27:26this is the world I've come, you know, grown up in, that can see right through that and
27:32just kind of like, you know, bust my balls and, you know, kind of, you know, get me small
27:36and, you know, make me laugh.
27:38I love the guys that can see right through me.
27:40I can be charmed.
27:41And what's with this feud that you seem to have with Jon Stewart?
27:45Well, I think that's just like a, like I identify it as just, you know, a petty kind of, you
27:50know, fully fueled by insecurity and-
27:54Who's insecurity?
27:55Mine.
27:55Yeah.
27:55Yeah.
27:56I mean, you know, Jon never did anything to me.
27:58I was just jealous.
27:59Yeah.
27:59I talked about this recently, you know, probably not smart.
28:02And of course it makes quick bait.
28:04And it's the same day that Jon's like doing something noble, of course, you know, standing
28:08up for Colbert.
28:09And then this other quick bait is like, Maren still hates Jon.
28:12You know, I'm like, oh my God.
28:13Fucking timing on that.
28:14So he's just jealous.
28:15Because when I was coming up, you know, he was a, you know, smart, cute Jewish guy, you
28:20know, who was good at, some people have foresight and are disciplined careerists.
28:25And they know how to understand their talent, you know, harness it, and then figure out
28:31how to capitalize on it, you know, with their skillset on their terms.
28:36And, you know, there, there are guys now that have that.
28:38Like I went to a birthday party for Mulaney, John Mulaney.
28:41And I'm just surrounded by all these young guns who are, you know, talking about, you
28:44know, their lawyers and, you know, and, and what they need from them.
28:48I'm like, I didn't even have a fucking lawyer.
28:50Like I, like I never had any control over my talent, you know, I never knew its limitations
28:56or what it was.
28:57I was just, you know, all in and, and just like demanding, you know, a place in the world
29:03of comedy.
29:04And so throughout my early career, you know, Jon, he was roughly my age, was just everywhere.
29:10It never stopped, you know, and like he, I remember when he did the MTV show and then
29:15he had the talk show and he had me on.
29:17And, but I, my, my envy of him was always so, I would just shit on him and, and to his
29:24face, like, you know, who the fuck do you think you, you know, and it was just consuming
29:29because like, I, you know, I couldn't get through a week without him being on the cover
29:32of a magazine or, and for some reason I saw him as like, you know, if I could only have
29:36my shit together, I could be more like that guy.
29:39You know, if I could commit to a lawyer, right?
29:41Well, yeah, whatever.
29:42Yeah.
29:42Or understood show business or any of it, which wasn't true because I was out of my mind and
29:47I was definitely gunning for something else.
29:49I did.
29:50I don't think I got into comedy to be an entertainer or have a job as a talk show host or anything.
29:55What did you get into it for?
29:56To hold space and to speak my mind.
29:59But I loved comedy.
30:00So like, I thought like I can do that in comedy.
30:03Yeah.
30:03I thought it was sort of a noble undertaking.
30:05The only rules of comedy, the only context is you should be funny.
30:09But outside of that, you can fucking do whatever you want, really, on that stage.
30:15You get the range.
30:16You go from Andy Kaufman to Larry, the cable guy.
30:20You know, the spectrum is like, you can do whatever you want up there as long as you're
30:24funny.
30:24Don't matter how weird you are.
30:26No matter what your thoughts are.
30:27No matter how fucked up mentally you are.
30:30If you can make it funny, you can be who you are.
30:33So I think I had a big belief in that I will eventually be who I am.
30:36And I always was, but it was not whole until fairly recently.
30:41So John really just represented that.
30:42And I was annoying to him.
30:44You know, eventually, you know, he was like, I don't need to take this shit from you.
30:47And fuck Maren, you know.
30:48But I get it.
30:49Do you think you can get him on your podcast before?
30:51No, no, no.
30:52Have you tried?
30:52I tried to get him on early on.
30:54I remember I was in Portland, Oregon.
30:56And I was like, I'll do this podcasting.
30:58And like, I'm kind of apologizing.
31:00You know, I'm kind of making up with people.
31:02And, you know, you and I have had this thing.
31:04And he's like, well, yeah.
31:06And he says, well, yeah, I just, you know, there's no love here.
31:09And I'm like, okay.
31:11And, you know, and then he basically, he said, yeah, I might be willing to, you know, have
31:16coffee or something.
31:17But, yeah, I'm not doing that with you.
31:20And then he said, I'm sure what you're doing is very creative.
31:24You know, good luck with it.
31:25And just the stinging condescension of that was like, oh, it didn't help anything.
31:31And now he's doing a podcast.
31:33Yeah.
31:33So full circle.
31:35I want to ask you about Deliver Me From Nowhere.
31:37You play Chuck Plotkin, right?
31:39Who's a record producer.
31:40Yeah.
31:41You strike me as a Springsteen guy.
31:43I like Springsteen.
31:44Yeah.
31:44But I'm not necessarily a Springsteen guy.
31:47Really?
31:47No.
31:48Because when you say someone's a Springsteen guy.
31:49Yeah.
31:50They're all in.
31:51Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
31:51They're from Jersey or Philly.
31:53You're from Jersey.
31:53Genetically.
31:55Yeah.
31:55Yeah, I didn't explain it.
31:56But I love Bruce and I certainly grew to love Bruce.
31:59And I did interview him.
32:00It was kind of a great, it was a pretty great moment, you know?
32:05You know, I read the book, you know, and not unlike a lot of people who have that place
32:10in the world.
32:11When they write a real book that's a personal book, you're like, holy shit, I had no idea.
32:17And Bruce is all like, yeah, me and the guys are going to hang out down the shore.
32:21You're like, you think like he's this guy.
32:22You're like, oh, me and the fellas, you know?
32:24And it's like, he's this dark, brooding, self-hating, you know, guy who's like, you
32:29know, so hard on himself.
32:31And he comes from, you know, just miserable Jersey garbage.
32:35His dad was a fuck up.
32:37Like, whatever.
32:38So, but it was great because I go out to his house, you know, in Jersey, like the estate
32:44out there.
32:44I don't know if he lives there anymore.
32:45And there's a big house up on the hill there.
32:47And then there's this other, you know, structure where, you know, there's a lot of guitars,
32:51there's a motorcycle.
32:52And I set up my mics, you know, and the publicist is there or whatever.
32:55I just see him, you know, coming down the hill, you know, and I just want to kind of break
32:59the ice, you know?
33:00He sits down.
33:01It's during Christmas.
33:02It was right before Christmas.
33:04And I was like, so what's going on up at the house?
33:06What?
33:07Craziness, cooking, presents, setting up for Christmas.
33:09And he says, correct.
33:11And I'm like, I want to talk to that Bruce.
33:16Can that Bruce be here for whoever just said that with that tone?
33:19I want more of that.
33:21And I think it was kind of interesting for him because we went at it, you know, and if
33:26I do what I do well, you know, which is insert myself into the conversation.
33:32Like, you know, a lot of people used to complain about that.
33:34You know, why do you talk during that?
33:35Why do you cut them off?
33:36I'm like, because it's my show and it's about me in a way.
33:39So I kept pushing in, you know, and he's talking about, you know, stage fright or it's like
33:44when I perform that, you know, it's not good enough or like, I don't know if I'm looking
33:47for love, but, but I, I don't feel like, you know, content and at some point he's like,
33:52of course you don't.
33:52And like, I knew that, you know, he was into my story.
33:55So we, we had this thing going and it was pretty great.
33:58I just, uh, in these last couple of questions, I do want to touch on addiction.
34:02What have you learned from what it is, whatever it is, 20, 25 years of recovery?
34:05I do know that if you do work a program that the obsession to drink or use drugs or act
34:11out, however you act out, you know, will be lifted.
34:14You will not have it.
34:16Uh, it's a promise in the program.
34:18Yeah.
34:18But that doesn't mean the isms are not going to plague you for however long there is, you
34:23know, the term dry drunk, you know, is a real thing.
34:27I don't know if I know that term.
34:28Well, dry drunk is an alcoholic who doesn't drink, but still acts like an asshole.
34:32Got it.
34:32Okay.
34:33That is really the, the, the challenge of, of, of being sober is like, if you want to
34:38be sober, you want to act sober and not just act like a dry drunk asshole.
34:41Yeah.
34:41So it's an ongoing sense of management.
34:43But I think that the, the message ultimately is if you can't drink safely or use drugs or
34:48whatever it is, that is your compulsion.
34:50And if it gets to a point where it makes your life unmanageable, you have a problem and you
34:55cannot do it like a normal person.
34:58And once you accept that in your bones, then you have a good starting point, at least to
35:04build a life that won't be destroyed by those things.
35:07Is there something that you want to say or talk about on stage that you haven't figured
35:11out how to say yet?
35:12I think there is some part of me, like not like I did in the special, there's a point
35:17where I go, I'm just going to be entertaining now because I do know how to do that.
35:20And I think like, you know, maybe I should do more of that because I do feel like I
35:23have a social responsibility because of my heroes to address, you know, politics, cultural
35:28problems, tensions, you know, and also my own personal darkness, you know, whether it
35:32be Pryor or Hicks or whoever.
35:35But I think it would, you know, maybe I could lean into just being funny.
35:39Just be funny.
35:39Right.
35:40Just come on, dude.
35:40You know, it's tough times for everybody.
35:42Just make us laugh.
35:43Yeah, exactly.
35:44Why not?
35:44I can do it.
35:45I just make it really hard.
35:47Do you ever regret not having kids?
35:49No, never a day.
35:53I have nothing against kids, but I'm going to, you know, I'm a panicky, anxious, worrying,
35:58you know, projecting codependent mess.
36:00You know, I can barely handle cats, dude.
36:02What have you learned from your cats?
36:04What have I learned?
36:05Yeah.
36:06It's a lot, dude.
36:07Like, I know kids are a lot, but like the way I deal with cats, it's like, like I got
36:11one now that's just beating the shit out of the other one and it's relentless.
36:15The youngest one, the middle guy is kind of a dummy.
36:18So he's just like, oh, whoever's on top, I'll be with him.
36:21But it's like, it's making my older cat, you know, terrified and afraid.
36:24And it's like, you cannot stop cats from being cats.
36:27And they're, they're like half wild animal, you know, this domesticated thing.
36:32It's just a, you know, it's a, it's a con they're running.
36:35They're, I don't, I don't know if they're pets or I'm, you know, they're pet.
36:38I don't know what's happening.
36:40Last question.
36:41Truly.
36:41Uh, what will the first line of your obituary say?
36:46Finally.
36:48How do you want to be described?
36:49This is what I'm trying to get.
36:50Like, what do you want to be like podcaster, comedian?
36:53You just hope that, that someone will feel about my work the way I feel about it.
36:58You know, especially the comedy, you know, cause like I can't do any better than what
37:04I'm doing now.
37:05And, and I think it's different and I think it's uniquely mine and I think it's, it's
37:09pretty powerful stuff.
37:11You know, I, I just hope that the contribution, uh, meant something.
37:15Yeah.
37:15Yeah.
37:16That's it.
37:18This was great.
37:19Okay.
37:19Good.
37:19I can't believe, uh, how generous you were with your time.
37:22So I appreciate it.
37:22Oh yeah.
37:22Well, I can talk.
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