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00:00Hey, everybody, it's Jamie. Time for another audience shout out. This one is really well
00:05timed and goes out to Roman, who describes himself as a pragmatic centrist. Roman has
00:10two points. First, that he wants to hear an episode about Maria Carina Machado, the Venezuelan
00:16opposition leader who just won the Nobel Peace Prize. Well, Roman, you are in luck. We're
00:20working on that episode right now, and we hope to bring it to you in the next couple
00:23of days. Roman also says that we tend to prioritize left-leaning news. Well, Roman,
00:29today, we are going to be talking about that issue across the whole CBC with this corporation's
00:34president. So I hope that you find it fair and thoughtful. And remember, we would love
00:39it if you would follow our show on your podcasting app of choice. That way, you won't miss an
00:43episode. All right, here's the show.
00:45Today, I am with the president of CBC Radio Canada, Marie-Philippe Bouchard. She's been
01:02on the job for a little under a year now. And since then, we've had a federal election that
01:07for now has spared the public broadcaster from defunding threats, but certainly not from
01:12a broad sentiment that the CBC needs change and evolution. Ms. Bouchard has had some time
01:18to look under the hood now, and this week, she unveiled her own five-year vision. We're
01:22going to discuss the relationship that Canadians have with the CBC, and then concretely, what
01:27she thinks the CBC needs to be doing more of, and importantly, what the CBC should maybe
01:32not be doing at all. And I just want to say before we get rolling here, because it's important,
01:37and I think to be transparent, that while Ms. Bouchard is the head of the corporation that
01:40I work for, there is some separation here. I have free reign to ask whatever questions
01:45that we want during this conversation. So if you have issues with these questions, that
01:49is entirely on us here at FrontBurner. All right, let's get into it. Ms. Bouchard, thank
01:54you so much for making the time.
01:56Thank you for having me here.
01:58So as I mentioned, you're almost a year now into your role as president of CBC Radio Canada,
02:03and I understand that you have been speaking with Canadians across the country during that
02:07time. And what have people been telling you about the CBC? What do they say about the CBC?
02:12Oh, many, many things, because CBC has been around, CBC and Radio Canada have been around
02:17for decades. And so there's a long experience with our services. There's a lot of expectations
02:24and some satisfaction and some things they would like us to do better. So in terms of concrete
02:33examples, what you have just quoted is one of the things that I've heard, people feeling
02:39that some points of view are not as represented as they would want them to be. And especially
02:47from a, I would say, type of experience or context that maybe we don't cover as much.
02:55I specifically, I was in the West on a number of occasions and heard from Canadians from the
03:04agricultural sector, the oil sector, saying they would like to hear more about what matters
03:10to them, what's happening in their environment. And conversely, I was in the North recently,
03:17just recently, I had the incredible opportunity to visit Iqaluit and Yellowknife, where our services
03:25are so fundamental for all sorts of reasons, but we're often the only link between remote
03:32communities and what's going on in the world and what's going on in their world. And that's the tough
03:38area to cover because it's so vast. And there's a relationship with the services of CBC that are
03:46really vital. But at the same time, there's so many needs in terms of language preservations,
03:53for instance, for the Inuit and for other Indigenous languages that we broadcast in.
03:59So it's, there's, there's a lot that people would want us to be more invested in. And I think we have
04:08to be in a really active listening mode. I think that's the best way for us to evolve and adjust and
04:14create value for Canadians.
04:16Well, I just want to pick up then on that point you just made, you know, one prominent criticism of
04:21this corporation, whether earned or not, is that the CBC has this left or liberal leaning bias.
04:28You hear this often in the opinion pages of the National Post or from conservatives in this
04:33country. We heard it from a listener off the top of the show. Recently, former host of the show
04:38Canada Tonight, Travis Danraj, left the CBC in quite a dramatic fashion. His lawyer has said that he was
04:44discouraged from bringing conservative voices on his show. I know that the CBC denies this.
04:50Travis recently had Pierre Polyev on his podcast, where Polyev said that the CBC has a, quote,
04:57ideological objective that they carry out every day. Do you think that the CBC is carrying out
05:04an ideological objective? And if so, what is that?
05:08I don't believe that there is an ideology being pushed by CBC. CBC and Radio Canada are governed by
05:15very strict journalistic standards and practices. I'm very familiar with those practices. I've been
05:22in the organization in the past. I believe that what may be perceived as unequal or uneven or
05:34insufficient may be a function of the fact that certain subjects are not as covered as they could
05:41be or should be. That's often a question of geography. It's also in the interest of,
05:48if you are pushing for a point of view, you can say other people are not reflecting my point of view
05:56to the degree that you would like. And that's fair. That's a conversation we can have. That doesn't
06:01make the public broadcaster biased. It just, it just isn't.
06:20You, of course, have this new plan out, one of the reasons why we're talking, this new vision for the CBC.
06:26And I was reading through the 10-page document that lays out a lot of it, a lot of your revision here,
06:33and I counted nine different mentions about the importance of reflecting a wide range of differing
06:39perspectives, quote, enlightened with a wide range of perspectives that the CBC should bring together
06:45and, quote, foster connections across communities, perspectives, and generations, quote, supporting talent
06:52and different perspectives, reflect and broker a wide range of opinions and perspectives. And I just,
06:59it seems like it's obviously quite important to you because you shredded it through the entire
07:05document. And just, if not an ideological objective, what are you talking about in these nine
07:11mentions in particular?
07:12I'm talking about the basic craft of public service. And we didn't invent it. It is working
07:22in other countries and environments. And it is about being inclusive. And the people you serve need to
07:30feel that they're being reflected in the content that you bring to them, not only to themselves, but to
07:37the other Canadians, but to the other Canadians so that you can broker some sort of understanding of what are the
07:43subject matters that are important to Canadians today. And this is a very vast land with many languages being
07:50spoken, two official languages, many Indigenous languages. There's a lot of divides, potentially. And so, having a means of
07:58communication, that it belongs to the public, and where everybody can feel that they are included, is really
08:06important. It's not just a theory. It's something we need to practice. And to the extent that we don't succeed
08:14today in convincing everybody that that's what we're doing, this is what we need to work on.
08:20I just want to be clear and specific here. Just what perspectives do you think are missing?
08:26Well, we can certainly say that from our history and evolution, because we had stations in larger
08:35urban centres, we've tended to remain in those centres, even though we have reporters that go out
08:42elsewhere. They don't necessarily live in more remote communities, or even not that remote communities,
08:49sometimes the suburbs. And I think one of the things that we're trying to do, and we've started doing
08:54this as early as January, when we talked about the extension of local service, is to actually
09:00establish teams of reporters and reporters in areas where we are not present today. That has two
09:08objectives. The first one is to actually give the promise, or deliver on the promise of local
09:13service to more Canadians. And local service today is making content available on the platforms that
09:20they watch. So it's not necessarily establishing a whole station with a transmitter, it's making
09:26content and making content that is reflective. And the other objective that it will meet is that by
09:33being in more locations, we will cover more types of stories, more types of subjects, and be in touch and
09:41in contact with maybe experts and ordinary Canadians and more in tune with what is important to them,
09:50which they may not feel reflected today.
09:52I was looking this week at Polara's polling annual report on how Canadians feel about news
09:59organisations and CBC. It still had more Conservatives than not that trusted it, but significantly,
10:05the trust gap between Liberals and Conservatives was the largest. When it came to the CBC,
10:11compared to other outlets, like CTV or Global, for example, lots more Liberals, for example,
10:18trusted than Conservatives do. I just, what does that tell you? How do you explain that?
10:23Well, I'd like to say I take comfort in the fact that most Canadians trust CBC,
10:27Radio-Canada, to start with.
10:29Yes. Highly trusted, overall.
10:31That's really important. That is really, really important. And this is not something I take lightly.
10:37Trust is earned every day. And you can lose it if you're not careful to be true to the trust that
10:46you've built. So this is really job one, is to maintain that trust. And to the extent that there
10:53are some segments of the population, whether or not they're Conservatives, Liberals, NDP, other parties,
11:00or whether it's because of their situation or, you know, where they live, or if there's a level of
11:07trust that is weakening, we have to look at it and listen. It starts by listening. What is missing?
11:16What is it that you're not finding? Or what is the relationship that you have? And sometimes,
11:22honestly, it is that they are not finding us simply because they're no longer listening
11:27to traditional media. And they've got most of their time spent on global platforms,
11:34which don't make necessarily Canadian content easily discoverable. So we also have to tackle
11:43that issue.
11:44Right. I guess just to try and explain that trust gap between CBC and other Canadian news outlets,
11:52like CTV and global, I just, when we're trying to think about the solution to that,
11:59are you thinking about things beyond putting people in more places, like maybe more opinion
12:05coverage on the network or something like that? What are you thinking about there?
12:08Well, I mean, there's all sorts of ways to make people feel reflected and included. It starts by being
12:16in the communities where they are. It also means including a more diverse set of points of view,
12:24if that's possible. And it's also about being constant about it, not just, you know, for during an
12:34election period or during a specific period of time. It's just to have that reliable approach
12:40to a diversity of points of view. And we have the opportunity to do that in many platforms.
12:48And so recognizing that not all Canadians use all of our platforms, we want to have a meaningful
12:56connection with them on at least one or two platforms, be it traditional, radio, audio, TV,
13:02digital, written form. We have all of those options available, but they have to find what they need
13:11in terms of media consumption.
13:13In this document laying out the CBC's vision and strategy, there's mention of, quote,
13:34stopping or transforming some activities to better meet priorities. And I just would like to pull that
13:39apart with you. First, what would you like to stop doing? What would you like the CBC to stop doing?
13:46Oh, anything that's inefficient. That's a general statement. But any organization, I mean,
13:55today there's all sorts of red tape in any large organization. So we need to look at that. We need
14:04to look at also how we can leverage new opportunities that come with technology. We've been good at it,
14:11to tell you the truth. I mean, since we started our operations in 1936, there's been lots and lots of
14:18technological advancements. And we've often been at the forefront of introducing them with responsibility,
14:26with, you know, a sense of innovation, and at the same time, reliability. And so I think this is an
14:33era where technology is evolving faster than we can even grasp. And so there's lots of opportunity to
14:40transform. And that will mean leaving some processes and some ways of doing things behind, but not before
14:48the Canadian audiences, the Canadian public is ready to give up on certain ways of consumption. I mean, I don't think
14:57there's an end to radio as we know it, because it's so essential to so many parts of the country.
15:03And in times of crisis, it's often the only lifeline that there is for people to get their vital
15:09information. And so in radio is the oldest technology that we actually operate. So that means we need to
15:17evolve in the way we use it, but we need to be in tune with what Canadians need.
15:21One critique that I hear fairly often is that the CBC should not be in the entertainment business
15:28when there are so many richer, bigger players out there, right? Why still make drama, comedy, reality,
15:34TV?
15:35Who else makes as much as we do? And if we stop doing that, would there still be an entertainment
15:43industry that is, you know, typically Canadian, especially in the English language?
15:48I have to say there are really two markets here. In the French language, we have a very vital
15:54entertainment environment that is very popular, and that is sustained not only just by Radio Canada,
16:02but by other private media, and by a host of independent production companies. There are very,
16:09very talented creators and producers in Canada. They need an outlet, they need a touchpoint
16:16with Canadians. And if the public broadcaster was not in that environment, was not in this business,
16:25where else would they go? Would that not be a loss collectively?
16:32Let me put to you one idea from Chris Waddell, who was the head of Carleton's journalism school.
16:38He says, why not fund the National Film Board instead, and let the CBC focus on news, foreign and
16:45investigative reporting, and informing citizens. Let the CBC not spread itself too thin.
16:51You know, establishing a relationship of trust with people comes by having many points of connection
16:58with them. There is such a thing as news fatigue. There is such a thing as people need to have a
17:05different type of interaction with their media. And sometimes it's light, and sometimes it's serious,
17:11but that's part of being there for them at all times. So I don't think it's stretching us thin.
17:18It's just the way we do it needs to take into consideration the weight that we put
17:23on the various aspects of our mandate. And to put it, you know, very simply,
17:30this is our mandate from the people of Canada. This is the mandate that's in the Act, that we have
17:37to inform, enlighten, and entertain. So until such time as Parliament changes that mandate,
17:44I don't see how we could simply ignore part of it. And I also would caution against the risks
17:53of our relationship with Canadians becoming even smaller.
17:59How do you respond to the critique that just simply not enough people are watching and engaging
18:04with these shows to warrant the investment?
18:07Because we don't measure the connections we establish with viewers in a wholesome way. And that's why
18:15people tend to say, some people tend to say that, you know, there's some relatively low ratings on
18:23television. Well, that's not how people consume content today. They consume content on demand. And they
18:29have access to that content in many, many forms on many platforms. Unfortunately, and I don't want to get
18:36into two technical aspects here, but the Canadian industry is very weak on measuring engagement with
18:44content. We tend to have measurements that are siloed, and it's difficult to access information about
18:53how successful the content has been over a period of time on many platforms. We do measure the time
19:00spent by Canadians on our content across platform, and that doesn't at all show that it's not popular.
19:08CBC is currently going to court to defend its refusal to release the GEM subscriber numbers. This news came
19:14after the Information Commissioner ordered the CBC to release them. And given what you just said,
19:21why not release them?
19:24Well, that's a good question. And the number itself of people who are actually authenticated, that is,
19:32they've created an account on GEM, is a fairly large number. But most of these people don't pay
19:39to use the service. It's free to them. And they are our registered users. That's not the number that
19:46was asked of us. The number that was asked of us was the people who actually pay for a subscription.
19:52Now, that information is recognized by the CRTC, which is the tribunal that's charged with regulating
19:59the whole communication industry as being sensitive commercial information. The Commissioner for Access to Information
20:07had a different interpretation. And we are simply seeking the court's opinion, the federal court's opinion,
20:14so that we can have a clearer ruling on how we conduct business. But because, you know, we're dependent on,
20:22yes, the appropriation, so the funds that the government votes for us, we're also asked and
20:29expected to generate commercial revenue. And that commercial revenue is negotiated with private firms
20:36on private terms, in the market terms, I want to say, market terms. And so the conduct of the market
20:44is driven by those rules of what is confidential, what is not. It's really important if you're doing this
20:51job to be able to play according to the market rules. And so we just need an interpretation by
20:57the federal court on the scope of what are the criteria to apply to this type of information,
21:04which is sensitive. And it is part of negotiations for carriage for a variety of other deals that are
21:12made by digital platforms with distributors in many contexts.
21:21Can you see how the CBC is different here from other private enterprises? This is a corporation
21:36that gets public money. And people might hear this and think that this is just a basic level
21:42of transparency from an institution that gets tax dollars.
21:46Yeah. It's all about balance, right? I mean, and if we were only financed and we could deliver on all
21:54of our mission with only public funds, then that wouldn't be an issue. But we are a hybrid type
22:01business. We are partly funded by the public for many, many good reasons and many public remits.
22:08And we are also expected to generate commercial revenue in the market. And so we have to be able
22:14to conduct ourselves. Sometimes it also protects our counterparts that some information is maintained on
22:23a confidential basis. And so this interpretation by the commissioner is important and may have
22:30impacts that are more wide ranging than the simple issue at play here. So that's why we think
22:37that it's important to have that debate. And then whatever comes out of that will obviously,
22:44you know, comply. But it is a balance. It is a balance between those two realities. And it is set in
22:53the Act. The Access to Information Act does contain an exception for commercial relationships that public
23:00bodies have. And so it's not a specific issue to CBC as of Canada.
23:08Had the Liberal government not pulled off an unprecedented political turnaround in the last election,
23:14the conversation that we would be having about the CBC right now could have been dramatically different
23:18given that Pierre Polyev campaigned on defunding the CBC and turning CBC headquarters into housing.
23:24Most minority governments, they last about two years, which, you know, gives you about a year
23:30and a half before this could be front and center again. During the election campaign, Mark Carney said
23:36that he wanted to see the CBC's funding enshrined in law, something that would require an amendment to
23:41the Broadcasting Act and Parliament's approval. Are you optimistic that this government is actually
23:47going to move to do this anytime soon? Do you see any signs that they are moving to do this?
23:53I believe that that was their, I mean, that was the intent signaled by the previous minister in the
24:01Green Paper. So Pascal Saint-Ange, that was clearly what the work that they had been doing was leading to.
24:08It found itself in the platform during the election. And I expect that if given time, this is the direction
24:17that they would want to take. Now, that will take a debate in Parliament. This is a minority government,
24:23so they'll have to have agreement at least beyond the leading party. And so I think it's a really
24:31important conversation. And I welcome it. The mandate and the financing model, the financing model of
24:39the corporation has not been reviewed for ages. And it's lagged behind its peers. We're now at $33
24:47per capita in Canada for a service in two official languages in eight Indigenous languages, whereas in
24:57other countries, it's double that for a single language country. So we're really doing the best we
25:05can with the resources that were awarded. But there's a place for a conversation about what type of public
25:11broadcaster, what type of public service Canadians want. And the discussion around mandate and financing
25:18model is a proper conversation. So beyond the intent of the government, there's also a wider public
25:29discussion that needs to happen.
25:32I know after the election, the CBC was asked to cut up to 15% of its budget as part of a federal
25:38efficiency review. I believe it amounted to something like $98 million in the first year, rising to $198
25:45million by year three. The Journal de Montréal reports that CBC will propose what to cut and make
25:51a final decision in 2026, which is just a couple months away. What will you cut?
25:59Well, it's premature to talk about what would be the subject of budget cuts. Because as you said, we put
26:08forward a number of impacts for the various targets of appropriation reduction. It's over three years. So
26:17that's the first thing that needs to be understood. It's over three years. It's not, you know, right away
26:22in 2026. It's a gradual thing, at least a model. Now, the decisions have not been made and have not been
26:30communicated at least to the various crown corporations that are subject to this review.
26:35And so it's, you know, depending on what the target is, the choices will be different. And depending the speed
26:43at which we need to do it, the choices will be different. So it's too early for me to speculate on that.
26:49One final question for you. I know you have to go. Your predecessor, Catherine Tate, faced a lot of
27:04scrutiny when she testified in front of a government committee about her compensation and wouldn't say
27:10whether she would take a bonus or not. And I'm wondering if you think there is an accountability
27:15mechanism missing as president of the CBC. In other words, who is your boss who measures your
27:21performance, salary, and bonus? And are they the same people who, if you do a bad job, for example,
27:28can terminate you?
27:30That's a really good question. And it's a kind of a hybrid model for CBC. And there was, in fact,
27:39in the green paper from a previous minister, a proposal to change some of those aspects.
27:44So currently, I would say, if you ask me who's my boss, I would say the board of directors.
27:49And that's how I conduct myself. I consider the board of directors of the CBC to be
27:54my ultimate accountability level. I'm accountable to the public in general, but they are the ones who
28:02are more scrutinizing what I do and how I do it. How my pay scale is established is by the government,
28:12because the Broadcasting Act still creates the power of the government to name the CEO of CBC Radio
28:20Canada. The proposal from the minister last spring was that the board be charged with hiring and
28:28evaluating the CEO. And I think that would be a good evolution. But right now, that's not the model.
28:35Right. I mean, it's a bit confusing, actually, when I was trying to understand it, because it works
28:39very differently from how most presidents or CEOs are governed, right? And I guess, have you gotten
28:44any clarity from the government on if they're going to implement that recommendation for a more direct
28:51and streamlined accountability? Because I imagine that that clarity would actually make it easier
28:57for you to do your job and be accountable for your performance.
29:02I think being accountable is a state of mind. And the processes that support that can help or they
29:10can hinder. I feel accountable. I've done all my career in public service. And that's what I think
29:17about when I wake up in the morning is how can I support Canadians in a more efficient way or a better
29:23way. In terms of the intent of the government right now, I'm not sure. I've had discussions with
29:31the minister about the idea. But it's really their prerogative to put it in the act. So I'm not going
29:39to lobby for or against. It's an idea that exists in other jurisdictions. But to be honest, in Canada,
29:47most of the crown corporations, the agencies are under the same model where there's an independent
29:53board of directors, but the CEO is chosen or named by the government or by the minister, depending on
30:00the agency. So it's not uncommon in Canada. But for public service media, a more independent model with
30:10the CEO being accountable to the board and named by the board would, I think, be a progress.
30:16Okay. On that note, Marie-Philippe Bouchard, thank you very much for coming by.
30:21Thank you, Jamie.
30:22Really appreciate it. Thank you very much.
30:31All right, that is all for today. Thanks, everybody. We'll talk to you tomorrow.
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