00:00We are joined by the Brazilian Minister of Environment and Climate Change, Marina Silva.
00:06She has been in this position before, from 2003 to 2008, also under President Lula da Silva.
00:16Minister, the world is watching Brazil.
00:19And not just because Brazil plays a key role in tackling the global climate crisis,
00:24but also because it will host COP30, the United Nations Climate Summit, in Belém, in the middle of the Amazon.
00:37What do you think will be Brazil's biggest challenge this year as it leads these negotiations?
00:44I often say that one of the biggest challenges ahead of us,
00:50and, of course, it's not just Brazil's challenge, even though Brazil has a leadership role in this process.
00:57It's a challenge shared by 196 countries, and it's to make COP30 a new reference point.
01:08Over the past 33 years, we've been discussing a series of procedural norms and regulations.
01:15Now, 10 years after the Paris Agreement, we've completed that agenda.
01:22We've already made the decision that we need the funding to implement that agenda.
01:30And COP29 established that $1.3 trillion are needed per year
01:35to help developing countries transition to green energy and adapt to climate change.
01:41So the role of COP30 is to lay the foundation a new path for implementing what we've already agreed upon.
01:54You mentioned financing, which is traditionally a major point of tension
01:59between industrialized countries in the global north and developing countries,
02:04because the question is always, who's going to pay?
02:06The debate can't take on the dimension where developed countries,
02:14instead of doing their part, shift the responsibility back to developing countries.
02:23I see that there's great concern globally over dwindling biodiversity and tropical rainforests.
02:31And Brazil has presented a new financing mechanism that's based on private capital.
02:36An innovative global financing mechanism called the Tropical Forest Forever Facility, TFFF,
02:45which enables the mobilization of private capital from both developed and developing countries.
02:51These funds would be used to pay for every hectare of protected forest,
02:56whether it's in Brazil, the Democratic Republic of Congo, Indonesia, Malaysia, or wherever forests exist.
03:03They would also be used to support restoration efforts and to protect local communities.
03:11Brazil has presented quite ambitious national targets.
03:18Zero deforestation by 2030, a significant reduction in emissions by 2035.
03:25But at the same time, there are plans to explore for oil on the equatorial margin at the mouth of the Amazon River.
03:36How does that fit with Brazil's credibility as a climate leader?
03:44Well, I think leadership today can't be viewed by isolating individual countries.
03:56We need to look at the broader context.
03:59Emissions reduction must be considered globally.
04:03This is the responsibility both of fossil fuel producers and consumers.
04:07Regarding the oil issue, it was decided that rich countries will lead the race
04:15to decommission and reduce CO2 emissions from the use of fossil fuels.
04:21That includes both producers and consumers.
04:25And then developing countries will follow.
04:27And we must look at both sides, those who produce and those who consume.
04:37Sorry to interrupt here, but Brazil is an oil producer.
04:42Yes, no doubt.
04:45But exploration on the equatorial margin would be a new opening, a new frontier.
04:51Why is Brazil still following a path of regression, if that oil is explored, betting on non-renewable energy?
05:03In this case, it's not just Brazil.
05:07Unfortunately, it's not.
05:09Countries across all continents that are producers, well, producers and consumers,
05:14continue to bet on non-renewable energy.
05:17But Brazil doesn't even need that energy.
05:22In Brazil's case, that's right.
05:24We actually have a comparative advantage, right?
05:27We have an electricity mix that's 90% clean,
05:31an energy mix that's 45% clean.
05:35But this contradiction of investing in both clean energy and fossil fuels
05:40exists in developed and developing countries.
05:43What we definitely need is a kind of roadmap to phase out fossil fuel use.
05:51Brazil is even willing to help those who don't have the same advantages that we have.
05:58That's why we're prioritizing green hydrogen,
06:01prioritizing fuels derived from ethanol production,
06:05and above all, biofuels for aviation and maritime transport.
06:09In the case of green hydrogen, it can be a viable alternative,
06:15but it's essential to establish technology exchange.
06:21New markets must be opened so that developing countries aren't left only with obligations.
06:28They must also have opportunities to create jobs,
06:36generate income,
06:37and fight poverty in their local communities.
06:40Let's go back to the Amazon for a moment.
06:51What Brazil experienced last year due to wildfires
06:54was certainly alarming for the entire nation.
07:00What tools does the Brazilian government have
07:04to prevent this from happening again on this scale?
07:07Well, there are two ways that deforestation is measured.
07:16One is clear-cut, the complete removal of forest,
07:20and that has decreased.
07:22We've managed to reduce deforestation by 46%
07:26in the first two years of President Lula's administration,
07:30through monitoring and enforcement mechanisms
07:33and economic incentives.
07:38On the other hand, with worsening climate change,
07:42we've seen devastating wildfires,
07:44not just in Brazil,
07:46but also in Canada, Chile, Portugal,
07:49and the United States,
07:50and various regions across Brazil.
07:53And in Brazil, it wasn't just the Amazon.
07:55It was across the entire country, exactly.
07:58In different biomes, like Cerrado and the Pantanal,
08:02the fires were terrifying.
08:05For the first time,
08:07the amount of forest lost to fire
08:09was greater than the amount lost to clearing.
08:12That had never been the case before.
08:14We're increasingly preparing to face this challenge.
08:23We know it's not easy.
08:27We've increased funding for environmental agencies.
08:31Brazil's environment agency, IBAMA,
08:34received R$800 million from the Amazon fund, for example.
08:38All of this will be used to boost our response capacity,
08:44from aircraft to near-real-time technological monitoring,
08:48so we can anticipate wildfires.
08:59Brazil's environmental laws are quite well developed.
09:04Compared to many other countries,
09:05Brazil has strong environmental legislation.
09:10At the same time,
09:12it's very, very difficult to enforce it.
09:18Why is law enforcement still such a weak point in Brazil?
09:24I wouldn't say it's still such a weak point.
09:29Actually, I think lately,
09:31our enforcement has become much more effective,
09:33which is why we've seen a pushback in Congress,
09:37involving efforts to change this legislation.
09:40When the law wasn't being enforced under previous governments,
09:43there was no push to change the legislation in Congress.
09:48But once President Lula's government
09:51began reducing deforestation,
09:53resumed creating conservation units,
09:56started removing criminal activities
09:59from indigenous lands,
10:00began demarcating indigenous territories
10:03and allocating forested areas
10:06for protection or sustainable use.
10:09Once that process began,
10:11a whole battle started in Congress.
10:16It's not the entire Congress,
10:19but part of it,
10:20trying to roll back environmental legislation.
10:23So I'd say,
10:30it's not easy to enforce laws anywhere in the world.
10:33But it is possible.
10:40We know the climate crisis
10:43is putting heavy pressure on agribusiness,
10:45which is a key sector in Brazil's economy.
10:47Rising temperatures,
10:52more droughts,
10:53so productivity in some regions
10:55has already dropped by 10 to 20 percent.
11:00How does the government plan
11:02to truly integrate agribusiness
11:04into the ecological transition?
11:10We're working on several initiatives,
11:15from restoring river basins,
11:17like we're doing now
11:18in the San Francisco River Basin,
11:20to rehabilitating degraded areas,
11:24restoring riparian forests,
11:26springs and zones
11:27where groundwater is restored.
11:31All of this is to preserve water resources,
11:34but the most important thing
11:35is to contain deforestation.
11:37You have been the target
11:44of serious attacks this year
11:46in the Senate
11:47and in the House of Representatives.
11:52When we look at Brazilian politics
11:54and the aggression you have faced,
11:57it raises questions
11:58about how committed Congress
12:00really is to environmental issues.
12:05How do you see this?
12:07No Congress in the world
12:11is homogenous.
12:13And nowhere in the world
12:14do business people or farmers
12:16have a single unified view.
12:20We have to look at the indicators.
12:23Even in this difficult,
12:24contradictory and sometimes tense environment,
12:27we've achieved good results.
12:31So yes, there's a very vocal group
12:34that's making itself heard.
12:36But there are other people
12:38who are doing the work.
12:40And the good thing is,
12:41we see this everywhere in the world.
12:45Brazil is no different.
12:47When people ask me
12:48if I'm optimistic or pessimistic,
12:50I say I'm neither.
12:52What we need to be is persistent.
12:53If you could change just one thing today,
13:01something that years from now
13:03you could look back and say
13:04that was truly a milestone
13:06and I helped make it happen,
13:08what would that be?
13:09I think it would be to change our mindset,
13:20especially the mindset of words without action.
13:24Because today a lot is said,
13:26but not done, right?
13:28Changing our mindset,
13:29stopping the destruction of resources
13:31that took thousands of years to form
13:33for the profit of just a few decades.
13:38Changing the mindset
13:40that to be prosperous
13:41we need to consume more.
13:45Changing that mindset
13:47might be the most important thing.
13:52We don't need to own things
13:54to feel prosperous and happy.
13:57What we need is to be more just,
13:59more loving,
14:00more respectful,
14:01more harmonious
14:02with ourselves,
14:03with each other
14:04and with nature.
14:08Minister,
14:08thank you very much for your time.
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