Brazil's Marina Silva on COP30, Amazon oil and climate goals

DW (English)

In an exclusive DW interview, Brazil's Minister for the Environment and Climate Change, Marina Silva, discusses oil exploration in the Amazon, the global consequences of climate change, and the urgent need for a new relationship with nature.

Transcript

00:00We are joined by the Brazilian Minister of Environment and Climate Change, Marina Silva.

00:06She has been in this position before, from 2003 to 2008, also under President Lula da Silva.

00:16Minister, the world is watching Brazil.

00:19And not just because Brazil plays a key role in tackling the global climate crisis,

00:24but also because it will host COP30, the United Nations Climate Summit, in Belém, in the middle of the Amazon.

00:37What do you think will be Brazil's biggest challenge this year as it leads these negotiations?

00:44I often say that one of the biggest challenges ahead of us,

00:50and, of course, it's not just Brazil's challenge, even though Brazil has a leadership role in this process.

00:57It's a challenge shared by 196 countries, and it's to make COP30 a new reference point.

01:08Over the past 33 years, we've been discussing a series of procedural norms and regulations.

01:15Now, 10 years after the Paris Agreement, we've completed that agenda.

01:22We've already made the decision that we need the funding to implement that agenda.

01:30And COP29 established that $1.3 trillion are needed per year

01:35to help developing countries transition to green energy and adapt to climate change.

01:41So the role of COP30 is to lay the foundation a new path for implementing what we've already agreed upon.

01:54You mentioned financing, which is traditionally a major point of tension

01:59between industrialized countries in the global north and developing countries,

02:04because the question is always, who's going to pay?

02:06The debate can't take on the dimension where developed countries,

02:14instead of doing their part, shift the responsibility back to developing countries.

02:23I see that there's great concern globally over dwindling biodiversity and tropical rainforests.

02:31And Brazil has presented a new financing mechanism that's based on private capital.

02:36An innovative global financing mechanism called the Tropical Forest Forever Facility, TFFF,

02:45which enables the mobilization of private capital from both developed and developing countries.

02:51These funds would be used to pay for every hectare of protected forest,

02:56whether it's in Brazil, the Democratic Republic of Congo, Indonesia, Malaysia, or wherever forests exist.

03:03They would also be used to support restoration efforts and to protect local communities.

03:11Brazil has presented quite ambitious national targets.

03:18Zero deforestation by 2030, a significant reduction in emissions by 2035.

03:25But at the same time, there are plans to explore for oil on the equatorial margin at the mouth of the Amazon River.

03:36How does that fit with Brazil's credibility as a climate leader?

03:44Well, I think leadership today can't be viewed by isolating individual countries.

03:56We need to look at the broader context.

03:59Emissions reduction must be considered globally.

04:03This is the responsibility both of fossil fuel producers and consumers.

04:07Regarding the oil issue, it was decided that rich countries will lead the race

04:15to decommission and reduce CO2 emissions from the use of fossil fuels.

04:21That includes both producers and consumers.

04:25And then developing countries will follow.

04:27And we must look at both sides, those who produce and those who consume.

04:37Sorry to interrupt here, but Brazil is an oil producer.

04:42Yes, no doubt.

04:45But exploration on the equatorial margin would be a new opening, a new frontier.

04:51Why is Brazil still following a path of regression, if that oil is explored, betting on non-renewable energy?

05:03In this case, it's not just Brazil.

05:07Unfortunately, it's not.

05:09Countries across all continents that are producers, well, producers and consumers,

05:14continue to bet on non-renewable energy.

05:17But Brazil doesn't even need that energy.

05:22In Brazil's case, that's right.

05:24We actually have a comparative advantage, right?

05:27We have an electricity mix that's 90% clean,

05:31an energy mix that's 45% clean.

05:35But this contradiction of investing in both clean energy and fossil fuels

05:40exists in developed and developing countries.

05:43What we definitely need is a kind of roadmap to phase out fossil fuel use.

05:51Brazil is even willing to help those who don't have the same advantages that we have.

05:58That's why we're prioritizing green hydrogen,

06:01prioritizing fuels derived from ethanol production,

06:05and above all, biofuels for aviation and maritime transport.

06:09In the case of green hydrogen, it can be a viable alternative,

06:15but it's essential to establish technology exchange.

06:21New markets must be opened so that developing countries aren't left only with obligations.

06:28They must also have opportunities to create jobs,

06:36generate income,

06:37and fight poverty in their local communities.

06:40Let's go back to the Amazon for a moment.

06:51What Brazil experienced last year due to wildfires

06:54was certainly alarming for the entire nation.

07:00What tools does the Brazilian government have

07:04to prevent this from happening again on this scale?

07:07Well, there are two ways that deforestation is measured.

07:16One is clear-cut, the complete removal of forest,

07:20and that has decreased.

07:22We've managed to reduce deforestation by 46%

07:26in the first two years of President Lula's administration,

07:30through monitoring and enforcement mechanisms

07:33and economic incentives.

07:38On the other hand, with worsening climate change,

07:42we've seen devastating wildfires,

07:44not just in Brazil,

07:46but also in Canada, Chile, Portugal,

07:49and the United States,

07:50and various regions across Brazil.

07:53And in Brazil, it wasn't just the Amazon.

07:55It was across the entire country, exactly.

07:58In different biomes, like Cerrado and the Pantanal,

08:02the fires were terrifying.

08:05For the first time,

08:07the amount of forest lost to fire

08:09was greater than the amount lost to clearing.

08:12That had never been the case before.

08:14We're increasingly preparing to face this challenge.

08:23We know it's not easy.

08:27We've increased funding for environmental agencies.

08:31Brazil's environment agency, IBAMA,

08:34received R$800 million from the Amazon fund, for example.

08:38All of this will be used to boost our response capacity,

08:44from aircraft to near-real-time technological monitoring,

08:48so we can anticipate wildfires.

08:59Brazil's environmental laws are quite well developed.

09:04Compared to many other countries,

09:05Brazil has strong environmental legislation.

09:10At the same time,

09:12it's very, very difficult to enforce it.

09:18Why is law enforcement still such a weak point in Brazil?

09:24I wouldn't say it's still such a weak point.

09:29Actually, I think lately,

09:31our enforcement has become much more effective,

09:33which is why we've seen a pushback in Congress,

09:37involving efforts to change this legislation.

09:40When the law wasn't being enforced under previous governments,

09:43there was no push to change the legislation in Congress.

09:48But once President Lula's government

09:51began reducing deforestation,

09:53resumed creating conservation units,

09:56started removing criminal activities

09:59from indigenous lands,

10:00began demarcating indigenous territories

10:03and allocating forested areas

10:06for protection or sustainable use.

10:09Once that process began,

10:11a whole battle started in Congress.

10:16It's not the entire Congress,

10:19but part of it,

10:20trying to roll back environmental legislation.

10:23So I'd say,

10:30it's not easy to enforce laws anywhere in the world.

10:33But it is possible.

10:40We know the climate crisis

10:43is putting heavy pressure on agribusiness,

10:45which is a key sector in Brazil's economy.

10:47Rising temperatures,

10:52more droughts,

10:53so productivity in some regions

10:55has already dropped by 10 to 20 percent.

11:00How does the government plan

11:02to truly integrate agribusiness

11:04into the ecological transition?

11:10We're working on several initiatives,

11:15from restoring river basins,

11:17like we're doing now

11:18in the San Francisco River Basin,

11:20to rehabilitating degraded areas,

11:24restoring riparian forests,

11:26springs and zones

11:27where groundwater is restored.

11:31All of this is to preserve water resources,

11:34but the most important thing

11:35is to contain deforestation.

11:37You have been the target

11:44of serious attacks this year

11:46in the Senate

11:47and in the House of Representatives.

11:52When we look at Brazilian politics

11:54and the aggression you have faced,

11:57it raises questions

11:58about how committed Congress

12:00really is to environmental issues.

12:05How do you see this?

12:07No Congress in the world

12:11is homogenous.

12:13And nowhere in the world

12:14do business people or farmers

12:16have a single unified view.

12:20We have to look at the indicators.

12:23Even in this difficult,

12:24contradictory and sometimes tense environment,

12:27we've achieved good results.

12:31So yes, there's a very vocal group

12:34that's making itself heard.

12:36But there are other people

12:38who are doing the work.

12:40And the good thing is,

12:41we see this everywhere in the world.

12:45Brazil is no different.

12:47When people ask me

12:48if I'm optimistic or pessimistic,

12:50I say I'm neither.

12:52What we need to be is persistent.

12:53If you could change just one thing today,

13:01something that years from now

13:03you could look back and say

13:04that was truly a milestone

13:06and I helped make it happen,

13:08what would that be?

13:09I think it would be to change our mindset,

13:20especially the mindset of words without action.

13:24Because today a lot is said,

13:26but not done, right?

13:28Changing our mindset,

13:29stopping the destruction of resources

13:31that took thousands of years to form

13:33for the profit of just a few decades.

13:38Changing the mindset

13:40that to be prosperous

13:41we need to consume more.

13:45Changing that mindset

13:47might be the most important thing.

13:52We don't need to own things

13:54to feel prosperous and happy.

13:57What we need is to be more just,

13:59more loving,

14:00more respectful,

14:01more harmonious

14:02with ourselves,

14:03with each other

14:04and with nature.

14:08Minister,

14:08thank you very much for your time.

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