- 1 day ago
Rich Mennear and the Hartlepool Mail’s Hartlepool United writer Robbie Stelling discuss all the latest developments at the club following Simon Grayson’s departure and their disastrous exit from the FA Cup at the hands of Gainsborough Trinity.
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00:30Hello and welcome to another Pooley podcast after another quiet week at the Victoria Park.
00:38Plenty to discuss. I'm joined by Robbie Stelling of the Hartpool Mail to discuss the latest manager situation after Simon Grayson was sacked on Sunday following the initial 1-1 draw with Gainsborough Trinity in the FA Cup fourth qualifying round.
00:53And Pooley's obviously then went on to be dumped out of the competition on Tuesday night with Nicky Featherston in interim charge, assisted by Elliot Dickman.
01:02And we'll get into the nubbins of that game as well.
01:07Morning, Robbie. We should sort of kick off then, first of all, with the manager situation, basically.
01:12What was your initial reaction to Simon Grayson being relieved of his duties after, obviously, a very busy summer at the Vic in terms of reshaping the squad?
01:22Him presumably bringing in most of the plays that he wanted to, to then be given, was it, 17 games, I think?
01:30Good start to the season, but, you know, it had tailed off pretty badly in the last few weeks or so.
01:35But first of all, you know, did you see it coming? What was your initial reaction to it?
01:39I was surprised, Rich. I have to say, I think, as a lot of Poole's fans pointed out, nothing necessarily surprises you following Poole's.
01:48Obviously, the current regime do have a record of sacking managers pretty early on into their tenure.
01:54I think of the last five permanent managers, none have managed more than 17 matches at the helm.
02:01Four of those, obviously, were sacked. Lenny Lawrence, of course, decided to step down.
02:05I think of the 13 permanent appointments made by Raj Singh, only Dave Chaloner has managed more than a year in the role.
02:12So in that sense, it wasn't a huge surprise.
02:15Clearly, they had been on a pretty poor run, one win in XI at the time that Poole's made the decision to part ways with Simon Grayson.
02:25But in another sense, I was really surprised. I thought it was a crazy decision, if I'm being absolutely honest, Rich.
02:30You sort of alluded to it there. They appointed him in June, and then they obviously worked really hard to recruit players according to the way that he wants to play.
02:40Initially, they had some success with that 10 points from the first 12 available.
02:45Yes, it tailed off. But at the same time, I think Poole's only four points outside the playoffs.
02:51The season is certainly salvageable. I think they've given themselves more work to do because of the response to the decision to sack Grayson.
03:00I think they've made it more difficult now for them to have a successful campaign moving forward.
03:06They had very similar issues last season, didn't they, in that they hired someone in, Darren Sahl, who likes to play a certain way over the summer.
03:14And they recruited, according to that philosophy, all the players that they signed were signed to suit Sahl's system and set up.
03:22And we've seen something very similar this summer under Grayson.
03:25And given that, I was really surprised that they made the decision.
03:30I think there were some positives. Of course, there were some positives from Grayson's tenure.
03:35Seven clean sheets, obviously, foremost among them.
03:39I think I shared a lot of Poole's fans' frustration sometimes at the relatively negative setup.
03:45I think there's a fine line between pragmatism and negativity.
03:48Grayson probably wasn't quite striking the right balance, although, as he would point out,
03:53he had been a little bit unlucky with injuries at various times throughout this season.
03:57J-Ben missed a few weeks with a hamstring injury at the end of August, beginning of September.
04:02Of course, Alex Reid has been sidelined, I think, for the last four games.
04:07Now, Rhys McNally, as well, who was so influential at the beginning of the campaign,
04:11looks like he's going to be out until December at the earliest.
04:16Obviously, all National League clubs, all clubs throughout the pyramid have to cope with injuries.
04:21That's part and parcel of football.
04:23Where the Poole's quite have a deep enough squad to be able to do that effectively,
04:27I think certainly there are question marks over that.
04:30But I was really surprised.
04:31I think it just sends absolutely the wrong message.
04:34Yes, Poole's need to turn things around in terms of their form.
04:37Yes, it hasn't been particularly inspiring.
04:39A lack of goals is obviously a big problem.
04:42But Grayson, a manager with a proven track record,
04:45Poole seems so set on him when they appointed him in June.
04:48And I was surprised that they managed to change their minds so much in the space of, what,
04:54four months that they decided to make that decision,
04:57especially given the issues that they created for themselves last season.
05:00I worry now that that may happen again.
05:02And, yeah, you obviously touched on injuries,
05:04and they all seem to come at the same time or the same few weeks for Grayson,
05:08which obviously didn't help matters.
05:10But, I mean, the defensive record was impressive.
05:12As you say, it was similar to the start of last season.
05:14But the lack of goals up top was a big concern, wasn't it?
05:17In particular, Danny Johnson yet to score for Poole's.
05:19Alex Reid had a decent enough start to the season,
05:22but then tailed off before his injury.
05:25I mean, how important will it be for him to come back for the new boss,
05:28whoever that shall be?
05:29Yeah, it'll be massively important.
05:32I think that certainly whoever does come will look to be,
05:37or should look to be certainly, a bit more proactive, a bit more positive.
05:41We often speak, don't we?
05:43Especially, I think, at a club like Hartnepoel United,
05:46where the fans don't just expect,
05:48they demand that their team gets on the front foot.
05:51You look at some of the successful managers over recent years.
05:54Dave Chandler's the obvious one.
05:56He really bought into that style of football.
06:00A bit more all-action, a bit more aggressive, a bit more attacking.
06:05I think just playing five yards higher up the pitch.
06:09I think that they do have goal scorers within their side.
06:12Alex Reid clearly is a good goal scorer.
06:15He's scored goals last season, scored 17 and 32 for Wildston.
06:18I think, as you said, he had a good start to the season as well.
06:21Danny Johnson's had a really torrid time, hasn't he?
06:23No goal in 15 games, was replaced early on into the second half again in midweek.
06:30But I think what he would say is Pools need to play more to his strengths.
06:34I think there are times when he's been incredibly isolated.
06:37That was probably the number one criticism of Simon Grayson.
06:42Just in terms of their attacking patterns,
06:44I was never quite sure how it was that they were trying to score a goal.
06:48We sort of got used to hearing every week that Pools took up good positions,
06:52but they never quite created enough chances.
06:54I never really agreed with that assessment, if I'm being completely honest.
06:58I think that they weren't ever purposeful enough in their attacking play.
07:03So I think that they do have goal scorers in the team.
07:06Vidal and Oliver's obviously had a decent start as well, scored in back-to-back home games.
07:11It's just about getting them involved in matches.
07:15And I think the likes of Jermaine Francis, who's had a pretty decent start to his Pools career,
07:19it has to be said.
07:20And someone like Matty Dainley, who I want to see a lot more from.
07:23He's certainly a good footballer.
07:25He's already shown that.
07:26But I want him to take more risks with some of his forward passing.
07:29Jamie Minley's another one that we know can do that.
07:32It's just about getting them into the game.
07:34But I think Alex Reid clearly is an important player.
07:36Simon Grayson will obviously have been disappointed to lose a no-goal in seven games.
07:41Yes, but he has got a really good goal-scoring record.
07:44And what he does, a bit like Manny Disarue did last season,
07:47is he does provide a focal point in a way that someone like Danny Johnston doesn't.
07:52And that obviously allows you to get more attacking players into the game.
07:56So his return is going to be really significant.
07:58Simon Grayson's last game was obviously Gainsborough of Trinity away on Saturday.
08:02He was fairly scathing.
08:04I think Pools fans were quite appreciative of his honesty from the start of his tenure
08:10when he came in.
08:11He generally called a spade a spade.
08:13But yes, Saturday he was pretty scathing, wasn't he,
08:14for the performance and the players.
08:16And no surprise, given they're two leagues below
08:18and ran Pools very close to knock on them on Saturday.
08:23Were you surprised to see him go after Saturday?
08:24Or do you think he might be giving the replay?
08:26Or was it just a general surprise all round?
08:29And where do you think Pools go from here?
08:31Well, it was a surprise all round.
08:33But I was really surprised that they made the decision in between the two matches.
08:39I'm not quite sure what the thinking was behind that.
08:43It suggests to me that it was a bit of a knee-jerk reaction,
08:46if I'm totally honest.
08:48Even with Darren Song,
08:49obviously one of the most divisive managers in the club's modern history,
08:52he was given the replay.
08:55Now, I'm not sure there's a right or wrong way of doing it.
08:57I suppose if you've made your mind up, then you've made your mind up.
09:00That is fair enough in a sense.
09:03But I was certainly surprised by the timing of it.
09:06I was surprised, as I say, by the decision.
09:09The thing that surprised me most was the fact that Pools did exactly the same thing last season.
09:14And that was a season that ended in failure for all sorts of reasons.
09:18So I was very, very surprised to see them make the same decision this time around.
09:23Now, of course, they'll be hoping that they can appoint someone
09:27that is going to lead the team to success.
09:29But I would suggest that it's going to be difficult,
09:31clearly not impossible, but difficult,
09:33given the fact that whoever does come in, of course,
09:36as we've discussed, stands to inherit a squad
09:38almost entirely assembled by Simon Grayson.
09:41And there's no guarantee that they're going to have the same
09:43footballing philosophies or principles.
09:46In fact, I would imagine that Pools might look for someone
09:48with slightly different footballing philosophies and principles.
09:51And if you look at the track record of appointments made under Raj Singh,
09:55and I don't think that this is a positive thing in general,
09:58all the managers seem to be completely different in terms of style and approach.
10:03You look at a lot of successful teams nowadays,
10:05they recruit according to philosophy so that you have a core group of players.
10:11And then when you bring a manager in,
10:13they're able to more easily integrate within.
10:16That doesn't take so long.
10:18There's not such a long bedding in period,
10:20which you would imagine there will inevitably be for Pools.
10:23Where do they go next is a really interesting question.
10:27It's difficult to tell, again, because if you look at that track record,
10:29you never quite know who Pools are going to be looking for.
10:32They obviously have a couple of candidates potentially already at the club.
10:37Nicky Featherston led the team on Tuesday night.
10:41I'm a huge fan of Featherston as a player, a person and a coach,
10:45but he obviously doesn't have any managerial experience at this stage.
10:50And Pools is a really big job.
10:52He knows the club like the back of his hand.
10:55But at the same time,
10:56he knows better than most the perils of taking on a position in the Pools dugout.
11:00So I'm not sure that that's one that Pools will necessarily look for.
11:04Elliot Dickman,
11:04who's had a really busy first week and a half since arriving on the coaching staff,
11:09another one potentially if they were to look to a point from within.
11:13And there's a whole host of different names, isn't there?
11:17Lee Casemol's been linked with the job.
11:19Someone like Paul Hurst, I think if I was Pools,
11:22that's who I would probably be looking at,
11:25whether they're able to attract someone like that at this stage remains to be seen.
11:29But someone with National League experience,
11:33or you could look in a different direction.
11:35Peter Hartley, I know that he's had a successful couple of years up in Scotland.
11:40He has got an interesting coaching background, having spent time in India as well.
11:44Obviously knows the club understands, the town understands the expectations.
11:49And I think to an extent that will be important.
11:52Whoever takes it, Rich, is going to inherit a fantastic club, a fantastic fan base.
11:57But it's a really difficult job.
11:59I think it's always difficult to be successful at Hartlepool United,
12:03particularly in the last few years.
12:04I think probably now more than ever, it's a huge, huge challenge.
12:08Yes, there is potential.
12:10How often do we say Pools remains a football league club?
12:14But does it operate like a football league club?
12:15I'm not really sure that it does.
12:17You look at some of the teams that rival them in the National League,
12:20I would suggest that there is a big gap and a gap that's widening all the time
12:25between Pools and how some of the better sides in this league operate.
12:28So whoever does stand to take the job is certainly going to be a brave man.
12:34Look, the season is still salvageable,
12:35but Pools are going to need to turn things around sooner rather than later.
12:39I think we've spoken about this a few times in the past,
12:42but one of the key issues for Pools,
12:44one of the key problems they have is that they go through so many managers
12:47that each manager then brings in their own set of players,
12:49their own set of, you know, well, way of playing.
12:52And then that's ripped up usually around October, November time.
12:55And then you're just stuck in the same cycle every year, aren't you?
13:00You know, does it need a complete overhaul of the club in terms of, you know,
13:04how they approach what the actual strategy and vision of the way they want the team
13:07to play is and then fit the manager in and around that?
13:10I think completely.
13:11It's just not sustainable the way that they operate.
13:14I think it unsettles players.
13:17It certainly doesn't stand to get the best out of players.
13:21I just don't think it's healthy to have such a higher and fire culture for all sorts of reasons.
13:28If a manager knows that he is at risk as soon as things start to go wrong,
13:33he might start to grapple it in the dark for solutions that are not there.
13:37I think you need to be a little bit more patient for a manager,
13:42I think, to successfully get their ideas and principles across inevitably takes time.
13:49And at the moment, people are just not given that at Hartnepool United.
13:53Yes, it's true that a run of one win in 11 games is not acceptable, as pools would put it.
14:01But I really didn't feel that that warranted the sacking of Simon Grayson.
14:06And as you say, to bring a new manager in at the moment,
14:09it's sort of every four, five, six months.
14:12Again, that's not sustainable for all sorts of reasons.
14:14It doesn't help the playing squad.
14:17They've spent all summer working on a specific style of play,
14:21a specific way of doing things, how they're going to try and win football matches.
14:25And three months into the new season, that's been ripped up
14:28and they're going to have to learn a completely new way of doing things.
14:30Again, that's going to take time.
14:32Pools run the risk of losing more ground on their National League rivals.
14:37And that's going to be obviously an issue.
14:40And the fact that they've done it twice in a row, two years in a row,
14:42I know that things under Darren Sahl did perhaps become untenable.
14:47That was just a huge surprise to me.
14:50I felt like Pools were going to learn from their mistakes.
14:52But at the minute, it doesn't look as though they have.
14:54A ton of mistakes.
14:57Tuesday saw them dumped out of the FA Cup before the first qualifying,
15:01before the first round proper, sorry, for the third year on the spin.
15:07Aside from the financial blow that that brings to the club as well,
15:10I mean, the manner of the defeat on Tuesday, the performance,
15:13I think, what was the crowd, about 1,200 who were there to witness it,
15:18where you just had to look at the social media reaction post-match
15:21to see there's a lot of unhappy Hartlepool United fans.
15:23Rightly so, understandably so.
15:25A lot of fans staying away as well for a variety of reasons.
15:29It's a big challenge, isn't it?
15:30I mean, in terms of Tuesday, how did you see the game?
15:33I mean, they certainly didn't deserve anything from it, did they?
15:35I think they were lucky to get 3-1, to be honest, Rich.
15:39It was one of the worst Pools performances I've seen in a long, long time,
15:44I felt, for Nicky Featherston and Elliot Dickman, I have to say,
15:47because they were thrust into a difficult position.
15:51I think a lot of Pools fans will have watched Featherston's post-match interviews.
15:56He looked a little bit crestfallen, didn't he?
15:59It's been a difficult time, I'm sure, for everyone at the club,
16:02certainly the playing and coaching staff,
16:05who have obviously worked closely with Simon Grayson.
16:09But while it was a difficult position to be put in for the staff and the players,
16:15I was surprised by how poor Pools were.
16:18I think sometimes you hope and expect that there's going to be a reaction of sorts.
16:24Obviously, Pools only had one training session in between that Saturday game,
16:28when they were lucky, really, to get a replay out of it,
16:31and Tuesday night's match.
16:35But I think that the lack of desire, the lack of purpose, the lack of fight,
16:43was hugely concerning.
16:44Obviously, you're not going to be able to get loads of tactical ideas across in one training session.
16:51But what you can do, I think, is try and grab the game by the scruff of the neck.
16:55And almost from the first minute, Pools had a reasonably bright start,
16:59but they significantly failed to do that.
17:01Now, I would say that Gainsborough had two divisions below them,
17:04more than 40 places below them in the pyramid as well.
17:07But they are a really, really good side.
17:09I think Russ Wilcox is a good manager.
17:11They had some really good players.
17:14But I think what it all came down to is Gainsborough wanted it more than Pools,
17:19and it wasn't just a slight margin.
17:22I mean, they were better in every single department.
17:24They outfought Pools, but they also outplayed them.
17:27I couldn't really understand what Pools were trying to do.
17:30They dominated the ball, particularly in the first half.
17:33But as we've said a lot this season, they were so passive with their passing.
17:38Too many players at the minute in the Pools' side are content to do the easy thing.
17:44When they get the ball, they don't really look to try and unlock a defence hardly ever.
17:49They've got some really capable footballers.
17:51You look at the players that started on Tuesday night, Matty Daly and Brad Walker in that midfield.
17:57They've both come from being fairly regular in football league sides.
18:03But they get the ball and they're not trying to make things happen when they should be.
18:07To be honest, I never really felt like Pools were going to get anything from the game.
18:12I mean, the first goal was crazy, the amount that Pools were prepared to back off and back off.
18:20Games were scored three really good goals in the end, but they all came out of needless errors from Pools,
18:25giving away a careless free kick on the edge of their own box.
18:30They didn't defend both boxes well enough.
18:33That's what Nicky Featherston said.
18:35Simon Grayson used that line a lot as well.
18:39But they were just poor throughout.
18:41They were second best by a long, long way.
18:43It was a really disappointing night for Pools fans, wasn't it?
18:46It was one of those nights where pretty much everything went wrong.
18:50I think for Pools fans, if Pools fans hadn't have invested so much time, money and emotional energy into supporting their club,
18:56it almost would have had a comical edge, wouldn't it?
18:58Alex Reid named among the substitutes only to post on Instagram that he was watching the game from home.
19:04From the club's social media posts, they would be playing Accrington-Stanley in the next round,
19:08subject to the replay with the graphic that had Hartmoke United versus Accrington-Stanley,
19:14only to then go and be resoundingly beaten.
19:17And these are little things, but they speak to a bigger issue.
19:21And make no mistake, there are some really big problems at Pools.
19:24If there was one positive, and I'm not really sure that there were any positives from Tuesday night,
19:29then of course it was young Kian Foreman, who I thought had a decent game on his first start,
19:34celebrated his birthday, made his first appearance of the season and signed his first professional contract over the weekend.
19:40And I thought it looked pretty lively for 55, 60 minutes or so on Tuesday night.
19:45So perhaps there's one positive, but Pools are going to need a lot more than that moving forward.
19:50But yeah, it's a pretty memorable 18th birthday, 18th birthday's go.
19:54Yeah, I think that social media graphic set the tone, didn't it, for the week, really?
19:57And a lot of Pools fans feared the worst after that,
20:00and Gainsbury's Trinity players made the most of it after the win as well.
20:03Just finally then, Robbie, looking ahead to Sutton away on Saturday.
20:08Feather Windstand will be in charge for the game.
20:10He's obviously limited in terms of how many changes he could make to the team,
20:13given the injury situation, but hopefully a couple of defenders back.
20:16John, I guess, will be allowed back, given that he wasn't allowed to play,
20:19in the cup game by York.
20:22Yeah, John's return will be really positive.
20:27He's obviously been perhaps the outstanding outfield player so far this season,
20:32and obviously not having him for the two cup games.
20:35And of course, for the league game when Pools played York as well,
20:39was a big blow.
20:42And perhaps it does give Featherston a little bit more scope in terms of flexibility,
20:46whether he wants to go with a back three or a back four.
20:50But the number one message has got to be you need to show a bit more fight,
20:54a bit more desire, passion and commitment.
20:58Look, we all said at the start of the season that we felt that this was a really
21:01competitive squad, a squad capable of challenging for the playoffs.
21:05I don't believe that we were far wrong in that.
21:10Yes, things haven't turned out quite as many fans would have hoped.
21:13You look at someone like Danny Johnson, who was expected to really thrive after dropping
21:17down to National League level.
21:19It hasn't worked out so far, but I still think that there is potential within this squad.
21:26Nicky Featherston called it a fragile group on Tuesday night.
21:29They need to do some work to try and patch themselves up.
21:32They've got to be much stronger mentally.
21:35They've got to be more prepared to take the game by the scruff of the neck because they
21:38actually have now a decent run of National League fixtures.
21:43If they can get a couple of positive results, they can bring some positivity back to the
21:47place.
21:48They obviously a long trip to Sutton on Saturday, followed by a couple of winnable home games.
21:53So there is potential there to pick up some points and hopefully breathe new life back
21:57into this season.
21:59Of course, on the other side of the coin, if pools have another few bad results, then
22:03things could start looking really precarious indeed.
22:06Look, Nicky Featherston knows the club better than pretty much anybody else.
22:10He knows what's expected from the fans.
22:13I think he will try and get them going and gee them up.
22:18But something needs to change.
22:19I think you've got to try and breathe new life into it in some way.
22:23So I would imagine that there will be certainly one or two changes.
22:26Having Jermaine Francis back as well is going to be a big positive.
22:29I know he featured from the bench on Tuesday night, but of course, certainly just come
22:32back from international duty.
22:34So I'd like to see more purpose, a little bit more intent from pools on Saturday because
22:39it's a potentially winnable game against the Sutton side who have had a really difficult
22:42season themselves.
22:44But of course, they've recently made a change in the dugout as well.
22:48So it's certainly a game that I think pools need to try and be positive, get on the front
22:51foot and just be a little bit more purposeful, a little bit more proactive because we certainly
22:56don't want a repeat of Tuesday night because that was, I think, one of the lowest moments
23:00in the club's recent history.
23:03Thanks very much, Robbie.
23:04It can only go from here, he says, without any confidence whatsoever.
23:07But we shall see.
23:08Robbie will be at Sutton on Saturday, bringing you all the latest news from there.
23:13And in the meantime, grab yourself a copy of the mail or head to harrypoolmail.co.uk for
23:17all the latest pools news.
23:20Yeah, we'll aim to record these each week.
23:21So hopefully see you next week, Robbie.
23:23And thanks for listening.
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