- 2 days ago
Retired four-star general Stanley McChrystal joins the show to celebrate the launch of his new Masterclass and share his approach to empowering teams and cultivating leadership at every level of an organization. He walks us through strategies for encouraging teams to take risks, even when failure carries serious consequences. But he admits that, despite a lifetime in the military, burpees are still the worst.
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00:00You make a decision, for example, and you send people in harm's way and it doesn't work out.
00:05The problem is you can't then go into a fetal position in the corner and sob and feel sorry for yourself
00:10because you made a decision and it didn't work out.
00:13That's not what the organization needs.
00:15It's important that the leader knows that's what they're there for.
00:19If they're not willing and able to make those decisions, they need to leave that position.
00:23Hey, everyone.
00:28I'm Dan Bova from entrepreneur.com and welcome to How Success Happens,
00:33the show where I talk to extraordinary people who have been put in extraordinary situations.
00:39Today's guest is retired General Stanley McChrystal.
00:43He led the Joint Special Operations Command in Iraq from 2003 to 2008
00:48and spearheaded the elimination of Al-Zarqawi, the leader of the terrorist organization Al-Qaeda.
00:56His leadership style has been praised for creating, quote,
00:59a force of unprecedented agility and lethality.
01:03And since retiring, General McChrystal has written several best-selling books,
01:07and these days he works with business leaders to help them unlock their team's full potential.
01:13And now he has a class on Masterclass that any of us can watch and apply his leadership lessons
01:19to whatever sphere we happen to be working in.
01:23Welcome, General McChrystal.
01:25Well, Dan, please call me Stan, and thanks for having me.
01:28It's a real pleasure.
01:30Oh, it's an honor to talk to you, and I just want to say, you know,
01:34thank you for your decades of service.
01:38Well, you're kind.
01:40Wait till we get to these questions before you say that.
01:43I want to first ask, was being in the military ever a question to you?
01:50Was this always the thing you were going to do no matter what,
01:53or did you ever have different thoughts?
01:55Yeah, I never really did.
01:56My father was a soldier and his father before him.
02:00And so from my earliest memory, I wanted to be my father.
02:04And because he was a soldier, I wanted to be a soldier, which was interesting.
02:08A few years ago, I gave a talk at a junior high school,
02:10and a young girl asked me that question.
02:12And I said, nope, I just wanted that.
02:14And she goes, that doesn't seem very smart.
02:18Well, it's a fair point, but it ended up working out for me.
02:21It did.
02:22It did.
02:23Is there anything you could imagine?
02:25I mean, obviously, business, we've seen post-military career.
02:29But anything, you know, race car, driver, fire engine, whatever, anything like that?
02:36No, it's funny.
02:37I've been able to see a lot of other professions since then.
02:41I don't think I would have liked any more than being a soldier.
02:45But there are things like, interestingly enough, being a farmer.
02:48I find that as the same kind of a challenge as you're building something, making it work.
02:54You've got to be effective.
02:55You've got to be efficient.
02:56It's all those kinds of things.
02:57Now, I know nothing about farming, so I wouldn't do very well.
03:02But that intrigues me.
03:04Yeah.
03:05Yeah.
03:05OK.
03:05Well, there's always a next act.
03:08So who knows what happens?
03:10So when you were in the military, how did you define success?
03:16And how is that the same or how completely different is it from how you define success in the business world?
03:26Yeah, it's funny.
03:29Most of the time in the military, the Army's at peace.
03:33And so what you are doing is you are training people.
03:36You are building an organization.
03:38You're training values.
03:39You're doing all the things that are really important long term.
03:43When you get into combat, then it's like being in business with a profit and loss where you've got to perform on a basis that's, you know, obviously life or death.
03:56They are related, but they are slightly different.
03:59So you have to take a long term view when you are in that period in peacetime.
04:05And in wartime, you've got to take a shorter term view, but not forget the long term.
04:10Because at the end of the day, you're also having to build the institution for the future.
04:15So I found that transition from long to short, have to get it done right now, to be an interesting challenge.
04:26I watched your master class, and you said that your job as commander of JSOC wasn't making decisions.
04:36It was leading people who could make decisions.
04:39Could you dive into that a little bit?
04:41Yeah, thanks for bringing it up.
04:42Because a master class is a great opportunity.
04:44It's like writing a book.
04:46You are forced to put your ideas into focus and to really pressure test them so that you can communicate them in some value.
04:55And so I think that whole master class process is so good.
04:59I found that you get to be a senior leader.
05:02You grow up operating.
05:04You grow up, you know, doing whatever you do.
05:06And you naturally want to do that because that's your comfort zone.
05:10But that's not your value add to the organization.
05:13Your value add is to create an environment in which the people that work with you and for you can be as effective as possible.
05:21Part of that is creating systems, processes, expectations that they operate within.
05:29Part of it is developing them as individuals.
05:32Part of it is building their confidence, providing a measure of inspiration.
05:37You know, you've got to be an organization that they want to be a part of and a leader that they want to follow.
05:44And if you're not those two, it makes it really hard for your subordinates.
05:47So how do you go about getting the best out of people by pushing them, but not pushing them so much that they rebel against you or want to avoid you or, you know, all those other things that happens when leadership kind of maybe, I don't know if oversteps is the right word, but pushes people away.
06:11Yeah, Dan, this is art, you know, not science, but I'll describe what I think works the best.
06:20The first is you've got to have a set of values that you run your organization with that people are comfortable with.
06:26They have to believe that they're doing something of value and something that's in line with their moral and other beliefs.
06:34The second thing is, as a leader, you've got to be somebody that they respect.
06:40If you are somebody that they hold in contempt, even if you've got a great mission and you're part of a good organization, you will have a difficult time connecting them because they may do what you direct them to do, but they often won't do any more than that.
06:56And so this is where leadership by example, and it's not what you say in this case, they watch what you do or you can make pronouncements, but how you behave, what you do with consistency and how you interact with people over time.
07:12When the very difficult decisions come, how did you come down?
07:17Did you make them in a way that's aligned with the values that you've been espousing?
07:22Then I do think you have to push an organization, but you push them best by pulling them.
07:29You get in front of the organization, you exhibit all of the things, the level of effort you want them to exhibit.
07:37If you work, you want them to work hard, it's necessary that you work hard.
07:41If it requires them undergoing a certain amount of privation or danger, you've got to be willing to overtly share that same privation or danger.
07:54Because even though their job may be harder than yours because a young sergeant in combat is doing more than a general for sure, but they want to believe that the general is doing what they can to show that they respect what the team is doing and to pull it along.
08:12I love this concept that you also talk about, commander's intent, giving people the big picture.
08:23I imagine in combat, you can't give the really, really, really big picture because you'd be there for days and weeks explaining everything.
08:31But can you talk about that concept and how that might relate to a business?
08:35The idea of commander's intent is not new, but it's not been uniformly exercised by militaries.
08:45It was designed that you have an order that goes out, an operations order, and it says who, what, when, where, why, and how.
08:51It's very specific of this is the time you do the operation, who's going to do it, and that.
08:56But then the commander personally writes a paragraph or more that in their own words says, okay, this is what we're trying to do.
09:07If everything goes badly, just remember we are trying to take this hill, we're willing to accept this amount of risk to do it,
09:17we want to end with these particular conditions.
09:21So it sort of goes to the idea that if everything goes into disarray, remember we're out here to drain the swamp or whatever the actual task is.
09:34And it turns out to be a very effective way to allow a leader to first get their own mind clear.
09:42What is it I'm asking the unit to do?
09:44What am I asking my people to accomplish?
09:47And you can put it in your own words that they can go, okay, I got it.
09:53And I used to tell people that if we send you an order that based on the conditions of where you are is wrong,
10:02don't execute that order.
10:05Execute the order we should have given you based upon what we're trying to accomplish.
10:10And we trust your judgment to figure out what that would be.
10:14That's fantastic.
10:15And how do you, as a leader, build that trust?
10:21Not just trust for you, but I have to trust these people to do these things.
10:26How do you train yourself to trust people when you're used to kind of doing so much yourself?
10:33Yeah.
10:33You have to give trust and build it over time.
10:37And I often ask people who they trust, and they tell me they're teachers or they tell me they're a pastor or their family.
10:45And I tell them they trust McDonald's.
10:47And they might say, well, I don't prefer that food.
10:50And you go, it doesn't matter.
10:52Over decades, they've shown us that when you see the sign, you know what it costs, you know what the products are, you know the relative quality.
10:59So you can make an informed decision on whether you want to eat there.
11:03Right.
11:04And trust that message that they're sending you.
11:06As a leader, you've got to build the same trust.
11:11And then as you develop trust in your people, you've got to give them the opportunity to execute.
11:16Because I can't trust you're going to do something if I never test that.
11:22Right.
11:23If I never give you the opportunity to fulfill a request, how do I know if you can do it?
11:29Because you've got to show me that you are, first, capable of doing what I ask you to do.
11:35And second, that you are willing to genuinely try to do it.
11:40And the problem is you can be genuinely willing but incapable.
11:44Right.
11:44So you've got to build that over time.
11:48And so I always tell people, trust is something we grow.
11:51And we've got to grow it and nurture it.
11:54Yeah, absolutely.
11:55So on this show, we talk to people in all kinds of spheres, people in business, people in entertainment.
12:02And there's this overarching theme of risk-taking, taking risks, taking calculated risks.
12:09Now, the kind of risks that I've talked about involve money, involve maybe appearing in a show that doesn't do that well.
12:18The kind of risks that you've been involved with, the stakes are a lot higher.
12:23And I wonder for maybe younger listeners, if you can kind of explain the situation in Iraq that you were commanding over
12:35and some of those decisions you had to make, you know, as I mentioned at the top, Al-Zarqawi,
12:42you know, you had to make some split-second decisions to accomplish that mission.
12:47Can you talk us through that a bit?
12:50Absolutely.
12:51First, every mission potentially is life or death.
12:54And so they have to be considered in that light.
12:57But there's a tendency to then want to pull them up to the highest level
13:01because you want to centralize them because it's life or death.
13:05But the reality is that's not where the decision is best made in most cases.
13:10In the special operations world, when I took command, I was personally approving every operation
13:16because we weren't doing a lot.
13:18We were doing about four a month.
13:20Within two years, we'd increased to 300 a month, from one a week to 10 every night.
13:26And about 30% of those were failing.
13:30And when you talk, even successful missions also often carry a cost.
13:34So every operation is important from a risk standpoint, plus important to accomplish in the mission.
13:42So, but you can't try to centralize them all because you're the wisest and you're the person in charge.
13:48You've got to push the decision down to the level where people are most informed
13:53and they understand best what's likely to accomplish the operation.
13:59We traditionally, in pyramid-shaped organizations, we pass down instructions.
14:04We say, do this.
14:05And then the idea is all those tasks will be assembled together and everything will end up perfect.
14:12You can't do that now.
14:13You've got to push that understanding down so when they make a decision, it's within that context of,
14:20I know what we're trying to do.
14:21I understand the commander's intent.
14:24Then you've got to communicate that, yes, there is risk in everything we do.
14:29And a percentage of the time, it won't work out.
14:33Simply because you don't get a good outcome does not mean it's a bad decision.
14:38You can make the best decision, but probability is such that sometimes the enemy does better than you do
14:47or random things happen.
14:49And so if you hold people to this idea that every decision must be successful for you to make it,
14:57what the organization does is it seizes up.
15:00Because people want to drive the risk of failure to zero, so they look for perfect information,
15:07perfect conditions, and they'll only do things with almost no risk of failure.
15:12And so what we had to do was push down to the organization that says, we expect failure.
15:18We accept failure.
15:20We're not looking to fail.
15:21And we expect you to be diligent in your preparation and responsible in your decision-making.
15:28But if you're not failing up a reasonable percentage of the time, you're not doing enough.
15:34You're not pushing hard enough.
15:35You're not taking advantage of enough opportunities.
15:39And communicating that across an organization is challenging
15:42because there's a natural reluctance, particularly midway in the organization.
15:47And you've got to find a way to get your message down because this is a cultural shift more than an order.
15:56And we found that radical transparency, talking about it, talking about successes and failures very openly in the command
16:04was necessary to give people the confidence to make decisions.
16:08Now, I'm not going to discount the pressures that an entrepreneur might be under.
16:15But, you know, when you talk about failure, it could be a failing business,
16:20but it could also be like a marketing plan didn't work out and we spent a little too much on Facebook than we should have.
16:27But, you know, the results of some of what you're talking about is the loss of life.
16:32And how, as a commander, you know, do you train yourself to kind of accept what bad things might happen
16:42and also stay energized and not become overly fearful?
16:48Yeah.
16:50You're right.
16:51In business, sometimes some decisions seem life or death, and then in the rearview mirror, they appear pretty trivial.
16:59We're worrying about something.
17:00In combat, first off, you do have an advantage.
17:04Everybody out there knows the nature of decisions that leaders are making.
17:07So it's understood that if you make a decision to commit people in certain situations,
17:13there's a high probability that some will be killed or badly wounded.
17:19So people do go in with that understanding, and that's helpful.
17:23For the leader, it's quite possible that you can get yourself almost stunned into an action.
17:32You make a decision, for example, and you send people in harm's way, and it doesn't work out.
17:37And sometimes it turns out that it was a stupid decision, and I made some, and it's exactly what happened.
17:43The problem is you can't then go into a fetal position in the corner and sob and feel sorry for yourself
17:49because you made a decision and it didn't work out.
17:52That's not what the organization needs.
17:55What the organization needs you to do is go, my job is to make decisions facing forward.
18:00I should learn from the decisions that didn't work.
18:03I should pay attention to that, but I need to make decisions facing forward.
18:09And sometimes it is going to be very, very painful when I don't get the outcome that I want.
18:14Sometimes it's embarrassing.
18:16Sometimes, you know, put any name you want on it.
18:19But it's important that the leader knows that's what they're there for.
18:23If they're not willing and able to make those decisions, they need to leave that position.
18:27Do you have any or did you have any kind of mantras or anything that goes through your head when you are in these kinds of situations,
18:37anything that you remind yourself, any saying or anything someone has advised you that sort of helped you stay focused?
18:43Not really.
18:47I kept telling people that, remember, I kept telling people we are in a war.
18:54And in a war, one side wins and one side loses.
18:58And it's not decided yet how this particular war is going to come out.
19:02And if you respond, if you give people that context, because they tend to get in the context of the mission they're in and the danger and whatnot,
19:11and you say, we are here to accomplish a mission, that's the purpose.
19:14We wouldn't be here if we didn't have something that the nation decided needed to be done.
19:19And that, at the end of the day, has to be the guidepost.
19:21Is there, your career is so long with so many accomplishments, is there anything that really serves as a proud moment for you,
19:33anything that really stands out as something that you look back on with great pride that you are a part of?
19:40Yeah, there are a number of things when I was parts of teams that did things that made me feel really good.
19:46I'll go back to Iraq, a very difficult time in 2004, 2005, 2006, for an extended period.
19:55And I'm part of the counterterrorist force at that point.
19:58There was essentially the same people in combat over and over and over, for years.
20:04And when we talk about that, there were operators that did 2,000 or 3,000 raids themselves.
20:10And if you think about that, that's just an extraordinary amount of highly lethal combat.
20:16And they kept able to operate based upon certain things.
20:21The first was they did believe in our cause.
20:24They believed that what we were doing was right.
20:27The second is they believed in their teammates.
20:30Yeah.
20:30And they believed that their teammates would take care of them,
20:33and they felt responsible to take care of their teammates.
20:37And so you don't feel alone.
20:41No matter how difficult it gets, how frightening it gets, if you feel alone,
20:48I think that that's the most challenging thing you can have in life.
20:51Teams like that, the cohesion became the combat multiplier.
20:57We get questions from viewers.
21:01And this question is kind of like the other side of what we've been talking about a bit.
21:05It comes from Robert C.
21:08And says, what do you advise people to do when they've lost faith in leadership?
21:14And they're being told to do something they kind of know will be a disaster.
21:18What do you advise to someone in that role?
21:21Yeah.
21:21That may be the hardest situation any of us find ourselves in,
21:24because it is really hard for someone down in an organization
21:28to change the behavior of senior leaders.
21:32I do think you can make your views known.
21:35Sometimes they're welcomed and listened to.
21:37Sometimes they are not.
21:40And that creates a real dynamic of challenge.
21:44Here's what I think you don't do.
21:47You don't become passive aggressive in your resistance to what you're asked to do.
21:54If you're asked to do something or directed to do something and you don't intend to do it
21:59with your full energy and loyalty, you need to raise your hand and say,
22:04I can't or won't do that for whatever reason.
22:07Because it's unfair to the organization and to the people you lead for you to half-step,
22:14because that's actually more dangerous.
22:16Because the mission won't fail and there's still danger there.
22:19I think that if it is just a disagreement on whether the company should do X or Y
22:27and you're down in the organization,
22:30I don't think that's a reason to automatically resign from the organization or do that,
22:35because that's the way leadership works.
22:38People in the seat get to make those decisions.
22:41I think that's true of whether you're in the government or commercial or wherever.
22:44But I think that if it crosses a line where you think that what's going is wrong,
22:50maybe morally wrong or legally wrong or something like that,
22:55I think it's a mistake not to stop what you're doing.
23:00You will regret it if you're a part of something that doesn't feel like it's right to you.
23:07And again, there's a difference between just a decision that's a policy thing
23:11and something that's moral or legal.
23:13Yeah, yeah, that's a great, great answer.
23:17Is there, well, I want to encourage everyone to watch the,
23:23subscribe for the master class because it's amazing.
23:27Just some incredible things there.
23:29Is there anything that you feel like really resonates with leaders that you speak with?
23:37And anyone listening to the show, like maybe a little bit of homework,
23:41something that they could do after listening to this,
23:44that they maybe try tomorrow, you know, or later today to kind of like take their leadership to the next level?
23:53Yeah.
23:54The one I'm focused on right now is decision-making
23:57because we always complain about decision-making.
24:01The decision made wasn't the right one or it wasn't implemented effectively or aggressively, that sort of thing.
24:08And I think most organizations, to include the military, struggle with this.
24:12So the first thing I'd say is understand what decisions have to be made.
24:18Do a little thinking about that.
24:21What do we really have to make and when do we need to make the decision so we have time to implement it?
24:26And then the next thing is who ought to be making this decision?
24:30Sometimes we think up at the higher headquarters, if the issue rises to that level,
24:35we'll automatically make the decision there because we're smart people and get paid a lot of money.
24:40When in reality, you say somebody way down closer to the problem may have a much better perspective
24:47on how this decision ought to be made.
24:51So the second thing is you look at who ought to be making the decision where.
24:56And then as it goes time to execute it, how are you going to communicate that decision?
25:01Because sometimes decisions gets made and not enough people hear about it.
25:04And so they're not really following it.
25:07But if you can communicate a decision out to everybody and say,
25:11this is made, we are no longer in the debate phase.
25:14We are now in the execute phase.
25:17That clarity, even if people didn't agree with exactly what the decision is,
25:22people crave that clarity.
25:24Okay, I know where we're going.
25:26I know what's expected.
25:27Let's do it.
25:28Yeah.
25:29That's fantastic.
25:30You know, we live in a time that feels particularly divisive.
25:39I don't know, over the course of your career, if it feels more divisive
25:44or if it's just that we forget how divisive things were and here we are again.
25:50How do you feel about efforts to bring people with very different ideas of what's right and wrong together
25:57and find some common ground?
26:00Yeah.
26:01I lived through the 1960s.
26:03I was, you know, in junior high school and high school then.
26:06So it was a tumultuous time.
26:09But this feels far worse to me.
26:10We had disagreements over race.
26:13We had disagreements over the Vietnam War and some other things.
26:16But now we are having disagreements on basic values of other people.
26:23And that, to me, is concerning in a very serious way.
26:28Yeah.
26:28And what I think has happened is many people have found that they are incentivized to be
26:35more extreme, to be more outspoken, more negative, you know, more hateful, more unaccepting
26:43of other people's perspectives and positions, more offensive because it sells well, it does
26:49well on social media, and so on.
26:51Ultimately, that has to end in one of two ways.
26:57It either ends in some cataclysmic, very negative outcome, like conflict in the violent conflict,
27:05or everybody steps back, takes a deep breath and say, you know, we're all in this boat.
27:10We've got to stop rocking and we've got to make it work.
27:13And I think the latter is obviously where we need to go.
27:17But right now the incentives aren't there.
27:19If I go on TV and tell everybody, okay, we've got to be reasonable and talk, everybody goes,
27:26that's nice, and they kind of fall asleep.
27:28If I go in and I say, so-and-so is an evil fascist this, people will pay attention, even
27:36though it may be completely wrong.
27:38Right, right.
27:41You know, I spoke to Ken Burns a while back, and he said he was talking about social media,
27:47and he said, Mark Zuckerberg should be in jail.
27:51I don't know, do your feelings on social media,
27:55what do you think about how that's kind of fueled this divisiveness?
28:00I think social media is more powerful than we are prepared as a society to manage it.
28:08It's almost like being given kryptonite, and we didn't really understand it.
28:12And so we are just jumped into social media, and we use it very aggressively, and we are
28:18doing horrific things, particularly to children.
28:21But we're also causing all of us to be gun-shy.
28:25We don't want to get out publicly because we'll get dogpiled on social media for something
28:30that we say.
28:30And so I think social media is far more powerful than we ever envisioned it would be, and far
28:39more negatively leveraged than I think most of us foresaw would happen.
28:44We've got to do something about it, and we've got to do something very quickly.
28:48I'd like to believe that society will mature and deal with it, but it may be too hard.
28:55That may be too hard to ask.
28:56We may need to do something that feels very uncomfortable to curb the incredible power
29:05of social media.
29:06Yeah.
29:07Yeah, absolutely.
29:09Well, General, I'm going to – sorry, Stan.
29:12I'm going to – we're going to lighten the mood a little bit with a little speed round
29:17here.
29:18We're asking a couple of rapid-fire questions.
29:20The first being, in your estimation, what's the best war movie ever made?
29:26Wow.
29:27My favorite is probably The Longest Day, The Invasion of Normandy, because I saw it when
29:32I was a kid, and it's one of those things that reinforced my desire to be a soldier.
29:37Great.
29:38And do you have a favorite rom-com?
29:42Wow.
29:42It's funny.
29:43I really got into romantic comedies at a point because I just didn't want to – I like You've
29:50Got Mail.
29:51Now, that's a little bit dated, but the Tom Hanks period, Meg Ryan, I fall for those.
29:58Yeah, that's great.
30:01Well, maybe in keeping with that, how do you – you're asked a lot of heavy questions.
30:06You've dealt with a lot of heavy things over your life.
30:09How do you turn your brain off at night?
30:10How do you relax?
30:12I read, and my wife and I both like to read, and so we sit in these two chairs in our living
30:17room, and we read, and about every 20 minutes, we make a comment to one another.
30:21But it's just – it allows us to decompress.
30:24Right.
30:24You almost feel it.
30:26Yeah.
30:26And then the other thing I do is my granddaughters live next door to me.
30:30Ah.
30:30And whenever I hang out with my granddaughters, it's amusing, it's challenging, and to me,
30:36it pulls you away from all the other stuff in life that seems so important.
30:40That's fantastic.
30:41I love that.
30:42What's your morning routine?
30:44Are you still, like, getting up at 4 o'clock in the morning or what?
30:49Yeah.
30:49I get up very early because that's the time I control.
30:53You know, nobody calls me or writes me at that time, and I work out every morning because
30:59that's how I also set myself physically but also mentally for the day.
31:03Once I've worked out really hard, then everything else feels a little bit easier.
31:08Yeah.
31:08Now, I do get up early, but I go to bed early, too.
31:12Okay.
31:12So, you know, people tell me about stuff that happens after 9 o'clock at night, and I say,
31:17nothing after 9 interests me.
31:20That's great.
31:22Speaking of working out, what's one aspect of basic training you're grateful to never have
31:27to do ever again?
31:29You're familiar with burpees where, you know, I just despise them.
31:36And every time I'm at something and people go, we're going to do burpees, I just want
31:39to get away.
31:42It's been so amazing talking to you.
31:45And as I said at the top, again, thank you for your years of dedication to our country
31:51and keeping us all safe.
31:52And I would encourage everyone to check out the master class as well as your books, Team
31:57of Teams.
31:59What is the best way for people to kind of keep up with what you're doing, what you're
32:04thinking?
32:04Yeah, I'm part of a company that we founded 15 years ago, McChrystal Group, and McChrystal
32:12Group.com.
32:14We've got information on what we do, what we're learning.
32:16We put out a lot of lessons.
32:18We do a lot of leadership work with companies and transformational.
32:22And it's just, to me, it's interesting stuff.
32:24And I think people would find the same.
32:27Fantastic.
32:28All right.
32:28Well, thank you so much.
32:30Again, really, really appreciate your time.
32:33Thank you, Dan.
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