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On this week’s show we look – where else – towards Old Trafford and the Super League Grand Final showdown between Hull Kingston Rovers and Wigan Warriors
Can the Robins pull off an historic treble by adding the ultimate Super League prize to the League Leaders’ Shield and Challenge Cup already sitting in their trophy cabinet, while avenging last year’s defeat to the same opponents?
The Yorkshire Post’s rugby league writer, James O’Brien, joins host Phil Harrison to discuss the likely outcome and how the Robins can get the better of favourites, Wigan.
Can the Robins pull off an historic treble by adding the ultimate Super League prize to the League Leaders’ Shield and Challenge Cup already sitting in their trophy cabinet, while avenging last year’s defeat to the same opponents?
The Yorkshire Post’s rugby league writer, James O’Brien, joins host Phil Harrison to discuss the likely outcome and how the Robins can get the better of favourites, Wigan.
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00:00YorkshirePost.co.uk
00:02Hello and welcome to the latest edition of the Rugby League Talk podcast
00:05from the Yorkshire Post. I'm your host Phil Harrison
00:08and once again I'm joined by the YP's Rugby League writer James O'Brien
00:12frankly because we couldn't find anybody else.
00:15This week sees us channeling the vast majority
00:17of our energies towards Old Trafford
00:20and the Super League Grand Final showdown between
00:23Hull Kingston Rovers and Wigan Warriors
00:25and seeing whether the Robins can pull off what would be
00:28an historic treble. James, you've covered Hull KR for a number of years
00:32now even before you joined the illustrious pages
00:35of the Yorkshire Post. Probably
00:38best place more than anyone else really in that sense
00:41to sort of gauge how big a weekend this actually is
00:44for the club and maybe even the city itself in terms of
00:47Rugby League. It's a big one but they've had a few
00:50big ones in recent years. Obviously
00:52they were here at Old Trafford 12 months ago
00:56they got back to Wembley a few months ago, one there
00:58which was a huge monkey off the back. They've won the League
01:01League leader shield since then. So in that sense
01:05this weekend won't define them. I think they'll
01:08come back next year regardless. Not necessarily to
01:11Old Trafford but they'll be up there again.
01:13But it is big in terms of breaking through that glass ceiling.
01:17No, there hasn't been a first time winner since 2004.
01:21So for a club like Hull KR to come along, when I say a club like Hull KR who have been in the
01:27championship quite recently, who were down the bottom end of the
01:31Super League table only a few years ago, they got the one in the spoon in 2020.
01:35So if a club like Hull KR can come from there to win the grand final five years later, it'd be massive
01:42for the whole sport in this country, I think. And we've seen what Lee and Wakefield have done in recent years as well.
01:49So there is a path, there's a way of coming from the bottom up to the top.
01:54And Hull KR have blazed that trail, haven't they, in a lot of respects.
01:58So hopefully, first of all, I don't think anyone on this side of the Pennines wants to see Wigan lift the trophy
02:03for a third year in the row, having watched St. Helens do it for four years in a row previous to that.
02:10So fingers crossed we can bring the trophy back over this side for the first time since 2017,
02:15which is a very, not too long, it's too long.
02:18Definitely. You mentioned where they were in 2020, Wooden Spoon.
02:23You mentioned that they've recently been in the championship as well in the last 10 years or so.
02:29Where did all this start? Where did the turnaround start?
02:32What was that moment that sort of made Hull KR sort of amend their sort of ambitions
02:39or start to think, right, we need to start being an ambitious club.
02:44We need to start mixing it with the big boys, et cetera, et cetera.
02:47When was that moment, do you think?
02:49There have been a few moments, but one of the big ones, Paul Lakin,
02:51coming back to the club as chief executive, that was at the end of 2020, I think.
02:55So he's, well, basically, he's orchestrated the whole thing.
03:00He came back in, just got the Wooden Spoon, as I mentioned then.
03:04So he started to turn around the culture of the club.
03:06It was just him and Neil Hudgel and Neil Hudgel had had enough at that point.
03:09He was ready to walk away.
03:10He brought, he actually brought Paul Lakin back to the club to sell the club on his behalf.
03:16So I bet he's thanking him now that he didn't manage to do that.
03:20And he convinced him to stay a bit longer because now he's got to the place
03:24where he always wanted to take Hull KR and that was to win trophies.
03:27Like the side that he used to watch back in the 80s.
03:31So in that sense, there's a bit of romance there in terms of Hudgel getting what he's deserved for so long.
03:38And also just the recruitment as well.
03:40The recruitment hadn't been great, to put it mildly.
03:45I think for that 2020 season, from memory, they signed in excess of 20 players.
03:50So it was a case of, we'll take a lot of punts and see if some of them come off.
03:54And some of them did come off.
03:55They signed Elliot Manchella, who's the captain now.
03:58So that's turned out to be a great signing.
04:00Sean Kennedow as well, he came in.
04:03He was a huge profile of signing and someone that needed to come in.
04:07And a lot of people behind the scenes credit him with changing the culture around and changing that mindset.
04:15Obviously, it didn't work straight away.
04:16He had a difficult first season in 2020, as the team did.
04:20But from there, they got in the playoffs the following year.
04:24And then they started to get the investment that you do need to compete at the very top table.
04:31And they're doing that now.
04:32They've got some wealthy backers.
04:35And we're starting to see a team on the field now that reflects that.
04:38And they've got marquee players, which I think every team needs to get to Old Trafford
04:43and take that next step and win trophies.
04:47I mean, I'm not providing them with a very main excuse here.
04:49But obviously, regardless of what happens on Saturday,
04:52it has already been a remarkable season for the club.
04:56First, ending a trophy drought of, what was it, 40 years?
04:59And then doubling down on that by adding the league leadership to the Challenge Cup.
05:04But in terms of how they've fared against Wigan this season, it's been on as even.
05:11Just to look at the other side for a moment, how good is this Wigan team?
05:14They haven't lost a final under Matt Pete, so that tells you that they're big game players.
05:22As we saw last year, there was nothing between the teams, really.
05:26The only thing was that Bevan French try when he raced away from his own half,
05:30burst past poor Mikey Lewis, who was hoping to do something similar for OKR.
05:34And he's capable of producing those moments of magic.
05:37And that's what settled the contest.
05:40Wigan haven't conceded a try in that.
05:42They've won the last two grand finals.
05:43They haven't conceded a try.
05:44I think they've just won penalty for Hulker and Catalan the year before.
05:48That just shows they're a very hard nut to crack on this stage.
05:53They know what it takes.
05:54And the lead around those teams of the past,
05:58they can just flick a switch when it gets to this end of this stage of the season.
06:02So that was always my worry.
06:04We've been speaking about this for months.
06:06And Wigan had a dip and OKR had a dip.
06:09And we said they've come good.
06:11And they both have come good.
06:12And they meet again on Saturday.
06:14In terms of trying to break them down,
06:16they're going to have to do something different to last year.
06:18Willie Peters the other day, I think there's a sense among the fans
06:22that he can be quite negative when it comes to these big games.
06:25And you don't risk losing to winners.
06:28Shane Warren used to say in cricket terms back in the day.
06:31But he was the opposite the other day.
06:34He was expressing his frustration that when they did have opportunities to attack Wigan,
06:39they went into the shell.
06:40So I'd expect, and it's supposed to be drier on Saturday,
06:44which is very unlike Old Trafford at this time of year.
06:47So we might see a bit more expansion from Hulker.
06:51I'm not lobbing the ball around wildly,
06:53but they will chance around a bit more,
06:55knowing that they have to do so to break Wigan down.
06:58Of course, when it really mattered in the league,
07:01in terms of getting over the line in terms of the league leader's shield,
07:04obviously Wigan came to Craven Park back in April
07:06and had quite a convincing win, all told, really.
07:11But then when it mattered later on in the year,
07:13getting to the sort of middle part of August,
07:15Hulker went over to Wigan and came away with that sort of famous 10-6 win, didn't he?
07:20So that should give Hulker our confidence, basically,
07:23I'm saying in a rather elongated way, going into Saturday's final.
07:27Yeah, and even in that...
07:29If they need confidence, that is.
07:32I think they do need an extra layer of belief of going to Old Trafford
07:36because it's quite different beating Wigan in a regular season game,
07:42even though it was a huge game and it looked a bit like a league leader's shield decider,
07:47even at that time, and it turned out that they won the league by two points, so it was.
07:54Yeah, going back to that April one as well,
07:57they had Wigan where they wanted him for a long period.
07:59I think 70 minutes they were leading, or he was very close at that point,
08:03they took a lead into the closing stages,
08:05and then they played Hul in the whole derby the week before,
08:08so I think they just ran out of gas and Wigan had the week off.
08:12And that was the difference in the end.
08:14And then, yeah, that one recently, I'd say the big difference is that
08:18Bevan French wasn't playing that night, Luke Thompson wasn't playing that night.
08:23But then Hulker had a couple of key players.
08:25Yeah, they did.
08:26There's an answer argument to that.
08:27But, yeah, Bevan French is a big one.
08:30If they can find some way of getting him out of this grand final
08:33between now and kick-off, someone tripping him down,
08:36I'd never...
08:38Yeah, careful, James, careful.
08:40Yeah, he's the one.
08:44He's the one that, I wouldn't say scares him, but he'll be on the guard.
08:48And you've got Jay Field as well, who's got pace to burn.
08:51He'll come up with saving tackles like he did in last week's semi-finals.
08:56And they've got strike across the park.
08:58OK, I just need to find a way of unlocking their strike players like Michael Lewis.
09:03And Willie Peters was saying the other day that he needs to channel his inner beast
09:08and walk out there with his shoulders back thinking, right, this is my stage.
09:13I'm going to own this and I'm going to lead Hulker to victory.
09:17Yeah.
09:18Is that the sort of performance that Mikey Lewis is capable of, presumably?
09:23Yeah, definitely.
09:24I definitely think he is.
09:26And I think in a lot of senses he needs it as well, because he's got a lot of players.
09:31I even put my story up about him this morning, Willie Peters likening him to Rhys Walsh,
09:37just in terms of mindset and what he needs to do to get in that headspace to go out
09:40and do what Rhys Walsh did in the NRL grand final last week.
09:44And responses like he goes missing in big games, stuff like that.
09:48So that's his reputation at the moment, even though he did kick the winning conversion at Wembley,
09:55albeit he was quite quiet in the game in terrible wet conditions.
09:59He did kick that goal, but he needs a performance where his fingerprints are over everything
10:03and Hulker get the win, obviously.
10:06And then he has achieved Hulker immortality, most likely.
10:11There's a lot of expectation on his shoulders, isn't there?
10:14There is, yeah, there is.
10:15I wouldn't like it to be me, I'd definitely bottle it, but he's growing, though.
10:20He's growing as a person, as a player.
10:21He's getting better.
10:23He missed out on the Man of Steel this year, but his contributions were up there.
10:27I think they surpassed, even surpassed last year in terms of tries and assists.
10:32So he is the man Hulker I look to.
10:36But obviously you can't do it alone.
10:38And Tyrone May has been becoming more and more influential as we got closer to the grand final.
10:44So they'll look to him as well.
10:48And the kicking game has to be better than last year.
10:50It's quite a tricky one at Old Trafford because the in-goal areas are so short.
10:54You can't really have a kick along the ground because if it goes dead,
10:58seven-sackle sets are Wigan and you don't want Wigan starting on the 20-metre line with seven-sackle.
11:03So it's a fine balance, but they can't do what they did last year,
11:06which was just basically...
11:08Michael Lewis got on the last every time.
11:10So Wigan, no, he's not going to run the ball late in the set
11:12because he's going to be kicking at the end of it.
11:13So it was all very predictable.
11:15And then he'd loft a kick to the corner and then turn it over in the corner.
11:19And that's kind of the game plan.
11:21But they can't do that for me late game plan for eight minutes on Saturday.
11:26They need to throw a bit more at them.
11:29Lewis aside, where do Hulker's other strengths lie?
11:33And where do you see the sort of key battles, as it were?
11:37They've got to win the middle, as Willie Peters always says.
11:41Forwards win the game and the backs decide by how many.
11:44And it is very true.
11:46So they need to win that.
11:47And they did that for a long period last year.
11:50They were doing that right up until Bevan French's try, which came out nothing really.
11:53So if they do that again, nail plan A and that's their plan A to grind the opposition down,
12:00win that territory battle, and then they need that sprinkling of Stardust,
12:03which they couldn't quite conjure last year.
12:08They went close a couple of times through Michael Lewis.
12:10I think he had to try this loud for a knock-on.
12:13Someone was competing for a kick.
12:15I can't remember who it was now.
12:1612 months ago, I can't remember what happened the other night.
12:19But, yeah, the forwards, obviously, if they win that forward battle
12:23and then do manage to stretch Wigan, they come in the game, of course they can,
12:29but Wigan are favourites for a reason, I'd say.
12:33Right.
12:33So Wigan are still favourites?
12:35Yeah, they're still favourites.
12:37Right.
12:38So, that's it.
12:41It's the Old Trafford record.
12:42It's the big game experience.
12:46Yeah.
12:46Now, I've been off a couple of days this week,
12:48not that anyone really needs to know that, but I can't remember it anyway.
12:51But it explains my next question.
12:52What's the latest on Michael McAlorham?
12:55It's similar.
12:56Is it going to be a game-based decision, essentially?
12:58Yeah, a late decision, yeah.
13:01It's a tough one, though.
13:02I mean, they threw him into the Challenge Cup
13:04and he lasted about 25 to 30 minutes, I think it was.
13:09He didn't do a great deal in terms of not noticeable things,
13:14but he would have made a big impact in terms of being around,
13:17being in the changing room, leading that line speed,
13:21the things that not a lot of people notice, basically.
13:24So, he will be important, but he hasn't played since before that game
13:29against Wigan in August, so he hasn't played since the start of August.
13:31I know he wouldn't play long minutes, he'd play about 20 minutes again,
13:35but it's a big call, really, because then someone has to miss out,
13:42obviously, from last week.
13:43You're looking at Jack Braubent on the bench
13:44who covers the whole of the back line.
13:47So, if you do make that call and something goes wrong,
13:50a bat gets injured and then you've probably got McAlorham
13:53having to play for longer than he should do.
13:55So, it's a big consideration, really, but I think if he is fit
14:00and he says I'm fit, I think Willie Peters will play him.
14:04And we've got Gerard Worre, Hargreaves as well,
14:07who was banned, started the week, banned,
14:10and then about 36 hours later, he's got that ban overturned,
14:14which is a big win for Hulke Arcus.
14:18They couldn't get it downgraded because it was a three-game ban.
14:21They needed to overturn it completely and they managed to do it.
14:23So, that's a bit of Neil Hudgel magic in his legal background
14:27coming up trumps there for Hulke Arcus.
14:29And it'll be big as well in terms of leading the aggression,
14:32taking the fights for Wigan and hopefully wearing them down.
14:36Definitely, definitely.
14:37How much, you mentioned last week briefly,
14:40just then the win over St Helens.
14:42How encouraging was that performance?
14:45The week out from the final.
14:46The first 40 minutes, definitely, because there were,
14:49I know we've spoken a lot about energy in recent weeks
14:52and they had that in the first half.
14:53And more lack of.
14:56Yeah, lack of in previous weeks.
14:59They did have that, they got that back in the first 40 minutes.
15:02They absolutely dominated St Helens, smothered them.
15:05They were worth more than the 12-0 lead at half-time, I'd say,
15:09and then they let, but then they let St Helens back in
15:11in the second half and they made it a bit nervy for a little while.
15:15But the same as the Wigan League game,
15:19there wasn't much between the teams for long periods,
15:21but you never felt as if either team was truly,
15:25or their grand final place was truly under threat.
15:28So I think we've got the grand final that we've been predicting
15:31for a very long time from the early stages of the season
15:33and even probably pre-season, really.
15:35We've had a few teams try and get up there
15:40and at times it looks as if they might do,
15:42like Leeds when they beat Hockey Air a couple of times
15:45and you're thinking if Leeds get through the first round
15:47of players, the playoffs and they go to Hockey Air
15:49in the first round, sorry, in the semi-finals,
15:52that would be an interesting match-up,
15:53but it never happened.
15:56Nearly.
15:57Wakey at times, you were like,
15:58well, they can turn it on, they can beat anyone on the day,
16:00but then the cream usually rises to the top in Super League.
16:04I think I put in my piece the other day
16:06that this is the 20th time out of 28 grand finals
16:08that we've had the first, three seconds,
16:10so it doesn't seem to matter what player format you have,
16:14albeit the top two teams always have some kind of advantage.
16:17They do find a way of overcoming those dark horses,
16:22so to speak, when it matters.
16:24Yeah.
16:25Okay, last word.
16:28And you'll love this bit.
16:28I'm going to pick the final.
16:30I'm after a prediction, please.
16:34You know, I backed Tolkien all the way through
16:36the League Leader Shield, even when they had that wobble,
16:39I did stick with them.
16:40They lost a couple of games in a row,
16:41and I said they'll still win the League Leader Shield.
16:44I'm a bit like the Buckees,
16:45I'm a bit spooked by Wigan's record in finals,
16:50the recent record at Old Trafford.
16:54I just think they'll have a bit...
16:56And I look at their match-winners,
16:58and I just think they've got more history of standing up in big games.
17:02So, yeah.
17:05You don't want to say it, do you?
17:07I don't want to say it.
17:07I don't want to say it.
17:09Okay.
17:09No, I think we're going to win,
17:11and that hurts me to say that,
17:14but I just don't see it.
17:16I think it'll be tight.
17:19I watched that NRL grand final last week,
17:21and that was just...
17:22Both teams thought, sod this, we're not defending,
17:25we want to attack you,
17:26we'll let you attack us and see who comes out on top,
17:29and that's what I think fans want to see in a game like that,
17:32between two evenly matched teams.
17:34Yeah.
17:34I mean, we might see a bit more of it this weekend,
17:37given the conditions are going to be drier than usual,
17:39but I think it will be attritional,
17:41and I don't think there'll be that many points,
17:42and I think Wigan will probably come out on top, sadly.
17:46Yeah.
17:47Okay.
17:47I'm hoping for a thriller,
17:50because I was looking back at recent finals,
17:53and we've not had a proper entertaining final,
17:56where you've had a bit...
17:57I mean, we've had moments like,
17:59obviously, French last year,
18:00and Jack Willsby,
18:00when he scored the winner after the Hooter,
18:03I think it was, in 2020,
18:05when no one was there.
18:06But in terms of entertainment,
18:08and having a bit of everything,
18:09when Leeds beat Wigan in 2015,
18:11you have to go back that far
18:12for the last entertaining grand final.
18:14So I hope we have points,
18:16and I hope it's as entertaining
18:18and as tight as that.
18:20YorkshirePost.co.uk
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