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I Was Actually There - Season 2 Episode 3 -
The Dismissal
The Dismissal
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00:00It was one of the most significant days in Australian political history.
00:11Unprecedented things took place that should not have taken place.
00:15Mr Whitlam has been dismissed by the Governor-General
00:18and Mr Malcolm Fraser will become caretaker Prime Minister of Australia.
00:22It was a massive confrontation between two giant egos of two very tall men.
00:29I have no doubt at all that it was a coup d'etat.
00:35Well may we say God save the Queen.
00:39Well of course nothing will save the Governor-General.
00:43I burst into tears.
00:45I grabbed him by the lapels and I said you won't get away with this you know.
00:59Working in the press gallery in the old Parliament House was certainly an adrenaline rush.
01:16There was a feeling that something was about to happen.
01:19I was working on The Australian in those days.
01:23I shared an office about the size of a broom cupboard.
01:26But it allowed you to have great contact with the decision makers.
01:32I was at that time the youngest woman ever elected to the Senate.
01:35I was a Senator for Queensland for the Liberal Party.
01:38I played the social butterfly and I picked up a lot of clues.
01:42I was in the Senate since 1962, a pretty senior fellow in the Labour Party.
01:51I was with the ABC working in their current affairs radio section.
01:55That day I had been preparing a report for my morning's AM program.
02:00Here's Andrew Potter.
02:01It's now the 27th day since Malcolm Fraser made his monumental statement that the air must be cleared.
02:07The crucial issue was that the opposition, the Liberals, had been blocking the supply bills.
02:14We were blocking the bills that are called the appropriation bills, withholding supply.
02:19That's the money to spend on things like pensions, public service wages and so on.
02:25Without the appropriation bills the government can't function.
02:28The trouble was that we of the Labour Party didn't have the numbers in the Senate.
02:34From the moment that the opposition refused to pass the budget in the Senate,
02:42we knew that we were heading for a crisis.
02:45The 70s under Whitlam, under Labour, was a period of great change in Australia.
02:50They introduced free tertiary education.
02:53Divorce law reform and the universal health scheme, which we still have.
02:58A whole raft of changes happened very, very quickly.
03:01The older generation was pretty agitated.
03:04You know, their view was, oh my God, he's changing everything.
03:09It had been a chaotic time for the Whitlam government.
03:12There was scandal after scandal.
03:14And we just decided, enough's enough.
03:17It's time for the Australian people to decide whether they want more of this or not.
03:22The Liberal Party decided that the bill was going to be passed on the provision that there would be an election.
03:30An election was not due.
03:32We had another 18 months to go.
03:35We wanted an end to the turmoil.
03:43Never seen you fellas up so early.
03:45The opposition is still urging for a general election.
03:48The Prime Minister remains firm.
03:50The only hope lies in this morning's meeting.
03:52I was aware there had been meetings between the leaders of both parties quite early in the morning.
03:57We were expecting that Whitlam would call a half-senate election.
04:01That had been talked about openly.
04:03So the House would continue as is and half the Senate would continue as is.
04:09But the other half would go to the voters.
04:11I was the minister for, I think it was called Consumer Affairs and Commerce.
04:16I was not a trendy member of the younger brigade of members.
04:21In fact, I participated in a lot of debates on the constitutional standoff.
04:27There was a caucus meeting of the Labor Party.
04:30We had a joint party meeting, both the Liberal Party and the then National Country Party,
04:35as it was called then.
04:36Frank Crane, the Deputy Prime Minister, had been at the general meeting of the four leaders.
04:44I said to him, how'd the medic go, Frank?
04:49And he said, no, very good.
04:53The atmosphere in the room was quite tense.
04:56And Malcolm Fraser and Doug Anthony said, we think things are coming to a head.
05:01They've got something up their sleeve.
05:04They're pretty cocky.
05:05And I said, what could it be?
05:08He said, the Governor General.
05:10The Senate leader for the Liberal Party was a man by the name of Reg Withers.
05:16And he earned the nickname, the Toe Cutter.
05:20And it was his job to make sure that no one wavered.
05:24On the morning of the 11th of November, which was the deadline for pensions and public service
05:31and all of that, they went into Reg's office and said, Reg, I'm worried.
05:35I don't think we're going to hold our guys today.
05:38They wouldn't do it to the pensioners.
05:40One person crossing the floor would have given the government a majority.
05:44There were MPs who were uneasy in the opposition how it was going to be resolved.
05:50He said, don't worry about it.
05:52I said, don't worry about it.
05:55He said, the Governor General hasn't spoken yet, which seemed to me an old comment at the time.
06:01I was one of three young army officers being interviewed to become the aide-de-com to His Excellency,
06:11the Governor-General, Sir John Kerr and Lady Kerr.
06:15So we were to go to Government House and stay there for two days just to see whether you're fit or you don't.
06:21The Governor-General, being the Queen's representative in Australia, is chosen by the Prime Minister of the day.
06:27The Governor-General, Sir John Kerr, he seemed to be a nice enough fellow.
06:30He was keen to meet us and we were offered drinks.
06:33I had a sweet sherry, which would be the only sweet sherry I've had in my life.
06:38Sir John Kerr wasn't Whitlam's first choice.
06:41In fact, he was his fourth choice.
06:43We just wanted the job.
06:45We would have drunk Kool-Aid or cyanide if it had been handed to us.
06:49I was told the Prime Minister would not be available because he was at Government House.
06:56Word of that seeped around so we knew that Gough was going to go and see the Governor-General and ask him for a half Senate election.
07:05The Governor-General had teed up Mr Whitlam and Mr Fraser to come with a few minutes apart.
07:12I was unaware and I think the majority of people in the Parliament were unaware that Fraser had been asked to go to Government House.
07:19But the order changed. Instead of Mr Whitlam arriving first, Mr Fraser arrived and he would have been looked after and the car was parked just discreetly or away.
07:28Ricklam arrived not knowing that Fraser had already arrived and was in an anti-room somewhere in Government House.
07:35At 12.50, the ADC knocks on the door and walks in and says, Your Excellency, the Prime Minister's here.
07:44His Excellency stands up and says, Well gentlemen, you must excuse me, I must compose myself for the Prime Minister.
07:52I got ready to do a special report at one o'clock, forecasting a half Senate election.
07:58Well, only five minutes later, His Excellency, Sir John Kerr, came into the small drawing room and said, Well, I've just sacked your Prime Minister.
08:06I've put another one in his place and God help us all and you better put another hundred police on the front gate.
08:12I was on a school tour at Glen Orkey Primary School from Tassie.
08:22We'd gone to the War Memorial that morning and then after lunch we went over to have a look at Parliament House.
08:26Being only eleven at the time, I didn't know that much.
08:29I knew there was a Labor Party and a Liberal Party and the Liberal Party was in opposition
08:33and the opposition always says, How about a job the government's doing? That sort of stuff.
08:37I had these saucepans on lay-by for about six months. I mean, they were French Le Creuset, bright yellow.
08:47So I drove to Marnica and paid them off and drove back to Old Parliament House.
08:54It looked huge to me, the building. Very white. I didn't expect that many people to be there, but it just seemed chaotic to me.
09:01The butler came to the door and said, Your Excellency, luncheon is served.
09:05So we all sat down and a great weight had appeared to have been lifted from his shoulders.
09:09I recall Malcolm Fraser striding in a very determined way, pushing open the door into the opposition lobby.
09:17And I remember that he was carrying a book in his hand.
09:20I later realised that was the Bible on which he had taken his oath of office.
09:25His Excellency said, Captain Denny, you know, would you have served on if you weren't paid?
09:30Do you realise that if the appropriation bills weren't passed, then machinery and government would stop?
09:35You and the army wouldn't be paid. Would you and your men serve on if they weren't paid?
09:38We all said we would have served on. I think we would have served on till the food ran out.
09:43It was quite interesting because he would start justifying his actions, saying he didn't have any other option.
09:50And then he would suddenly stop and he'd want to change the subject and sort of say, Enough of this.
09:55So he vacillated.
09:56When I went in to see Fred Chaney the Whip before Parliament sat that afternoon, he said, Well, we're going to be passing the bill because Kerr has sacked Whitlam and installed Fraser as Prime Minister on condition that we carry the appropriation bills today and that we consent to a double dissolution.
10:20You know, it was flabbergasting.
10:22I was secretary to Graham Frydenberg, who was Gough Whitlam's senior speechwriter.
10:27The door burst open and Graham came in very agitated and said, Quick, take a note, take a note.
10:34We had those old electric typewriters.
10:36You had to wind the paper in and he was trying to push the paper in.
10:39He was in such a hurry.
10:41Okay, take it easy.
10:43I was the senior executive of what was called the Women's Affairs brand.
10:50It was just an ordinary day.
10:52We were dealing with correspondence or whatever.
10:56And he dictated that this house has no confidence in the Prime Minister.
11:01And I burst out laughing and I said, Have you been fighting with Gough today?
11:06And he looked at me, aghast, and he said, Oh my God, you don't know, do you?
11:11He looked around and he said, None of you know.
11:13John Manadieu was the head of the department.
11:17So he called what was called then a branch heads meeting.
11:21And he said, Lady and gentlemen, we now have a new Prime Minister.
11:27Gough has been sacked by the Governor General.
11:30And there's this stunned silence and everyone just said, No.
11:34We actually couldn't believe that Gough Whitlam didn't pull it off.
11:41Everybody had gone off to have lunch.
11:42I think I was probably about to go and get some lunch for myself.
11:45And one phone on the Chief of Staff's desk rang.
11:49And I thought, Oh, I better pick it up.
11:51Normally, when I arrived at work, I could get a parking spot like next to the front steps.
11:57This time, I drove past and there was not a single parking spot.
12:01Picked up the phone. Hello, David Barnett here.
12:05David Barnett was Malcolm Fraser's Press Secretary.
12:09He said, Malcolm Fraser has been made Prime Minister.
12:13And he put the phone down.
12:14And as I was getting out of the car,
12:16a chap who worked in the Parliamentary Library said to me,
12:21Gough's been sacked.
12:22And I said, What?
12:24Nobody in Fraser's office would pick up the phone.
12:26Nobody in Whitlam's office would pick up the phone.
12:28So I then rang my Sydney office and said,
12:32I think we should get ready to go back on air
12:34because this is what just happened.
12:36I was clearly conscious of the fact that it was a huge story.
12:41But then on another level, as an individual,
12:44I was outraged by it.
12:46I went and knocked on a few doors just to see if I could find anybody
12:50who could give me an indication of what on earth was happening.
12:52I saw a Liberal Party staffer.
12:55I leaned up and grabbed him by the lapels
12:58and I said, You won't get away with this, you know.
13:01And he just stared at me like I was a mad woman.
13:04A few years later we got married.
13:14Then the bells began to ring at ten past two.
13:18Our local representative was supposed to be there to talk to us.
13:20We sent him for about 30 seconds and the bells started ringing
13:23and he had to race off to vote.
13:25The senators in the Labour Party, we hadn't been told we were sacked.
13:30The guys on their side clearly didn't know.
13:33We moved a motion for the supply ball to be passed.
13:38It would have only taken a couple of minutes.
13:40Well, those have been his aye.
13:41At the contrary, no.
13:42Ayes have it.
13:43Ayes have it.
13:44We didn't challenge it.
13:45I couldn't believe it.
13:47Then Jim Rogers, the clerk of the Senate, said to me,
13:51there's a rumour that you blokes have been dismissed.
13:56And Don Wethersey put his foot up on the desk, pulled his sock up,
14:02and he said, pull the other sock up.
14:05And that was it.
14:07People were really, they looked serious.
14:09Some of them looked panicky.
14:11So it was just this bunch of school kids in the middle of chaos.
14:14I went into the House of Rep's press gallery.
14:17You could just feel the turmoil in the chamber,
14:21except Malcolm Fraser, who was as cool as ice.
14:25Gordon Scholes, who was then the Labor Speaker,
14:28and a very good Speaker, called Malcolm Fraser to speak.
14:33And he didn't call him the Leader of the Opposition.
14:38He called him as the Honourable Member for Wannan.
14:42And Fraser got up and then announced that he was the Prime Minister.
14:48The Honourable Member for Wannan.
14:50Mr Speaker, this afternoon the Governor-General commissioned me
14:53to form a government until elections can be held.
15:01There was understandably a lot of noise from Labor members.
15:05Most of them didn't know what had happened.
15:07They were shocked, they were angry, they were rowdy,
15:10trying to come to terms in such a short space of time
15:16with what had actually happened.
15:19It was a political play, and I thought it was the Liberal Party
15:24butchering its way through Australian democracy.
15:34Mr Whitlam has been dismissed by the Governor-General,
15:37and Mr Malcolm Fraser will become caretaker Prime Minister of Australia
15:40pending a general election.
15:42Following the news, which hit the national capital like a bombshell,
15:45the Senate has passed the budget.
15:47I was at school, and there was a buzz around the school.
15:50The teachers said, have you heard what's happened?
15:52Whitlam's been sacked.
15:53We didn't know at the time just how monumental that was.
15:56You know, we thought, oh, well, you know,
15:58you hear people getting sacked all the time.
15:59The word just spread almost instantly.
16:03You know, sketchy reports on the radio about what had happened.
16:06People who were working in buildings surrounding Parliament House
16:11descended on the building.
16:12There was a few of my mates who were interested in politics,
16:14so we sort of couldn't wait to sort of get out of school
16:17and go home and go, what's going on?
16:19What is going on?
16:20We have had the extraordinary situation of the Labor Party
16:23still sitting on the government's side of the House
16:26because they maintain they've got the numbers.
16:28I was coming and going from our little desk.
16:31I'd duck up into the King's Hall
16:33where there was a lot of people mingling around.
16:35There was so much going on at such speed.
16:37It was a slightly disconcerting time
16:39of not actually knowing 100% what was happening.
16:42We was booked in to have a look at the House of Representatives,
16:44so we actually got to go past all the people lined up
16:48trying to get into the viewing gallery in Parliament House
16:50to watch what was going on.
16:51Fred Daly, as leader of the House, got up and moved a motion
16:55condemning what the Governor-General had done,
16:58confirmed their confidence in Whitlam as Prime Minister
17:01and called upon the Governor-General to commission Whitlam again.
17:07I remember seeing Gough Whitlam.
17:09To me, he seemed really in the face,
17:11but that may have been normal for him, I don't know.
17:13It was only black and white tellies mainly back then,
17:15so I had nothing to compare it with.
17:17Whitlam had moved no confidence in Malcolm Fraser.
17:22The House of Reps passed the motion.
17:25Whitlam had asked the Labor Speaker, Gordon Scholes,
17:28to make an appointment to go back to Government House
17:30to see Sir John Kerr and tell him Labor had the majority
17:35and should therefore be allowed to continue to govern.
17:38I heard subsequently that Kerr refused to see Scoles.
17:43Shortly after we had the news that Fraser wanted our office
17:47and we were to leave within hours.
17:50And so there were these pictures of staff loading files into a truck
17:55and it looked suspicious.
17:57In the end, of course, they told us,
17:59oh, he's been talked out of it.
18:01You don't have to move until after the election if you lose.
18:05I was trying to find somebody who I could talk to
18:07or convinced to come down and be interviewed
18:09and that's when I got hold of Paul Keating.
18:11Sir John Kerr's done a completely unprincipled act.
18:14You're saying that Sir John Kerr's completely unjustified.
18:17He's completely unjustified.
18:18I wouldn't have resolved him for a second.
18:19Completely and totally unjustified.
18:21Keating was ropeable.
18:23He said to me off air, unfortunately he didn't say it on air,
18:26he should be locked up and put in jail.
18:33Fraser appeared on the steps.
18:35He was leaving Parliament House to go to Government House.
18:41There were already demonstrators there
18:43so they were able to vent their rage against him.
18:51David Smith was the official secretary to His Excellency
18:54and he was on his way to read the actual proclamation
18:58on the steps of Parliament House.
19:00So he had the piece of paper
19:02and he stopped and chatted with us
19:04and there was this jocular comment that we could go
19:06and provide security for him.
19:08I think we understood it was going to be an exciting time.
19:10Members of the public gathered on the steps of the old Parliament House
19:13and they'd be chanting,
19:15we want golf, we want golf.
19:17It kept growing all the time.
19:18Every time I'd go out there there'd be another,
19:20gosh, it's grown again.
19:21He then said, would you like a copy?
19:23Oh yeah, we would.
19:24So he turned around and walked with a photocopier,
19:26gave us each a copy and this is the original document.
19:28It hadn't been read.
19:30And then he jumped in the car and went to Parliament House.
19:34We heard that David Smith was on the front steps
19:38reading the proclamation.
19:39Everybody who was in the building charged to the front steps.
19:44Grab the tape recorder and hang close to David Smith
19:48to try and record him.
19:49And we were actually piled on the bus.
19:51One of the teachers or something said,
19:53oh, they're just about to make a speech on the steps.
19:55If you just want to hop off, go and have a look.
19:58Senate opposition party room opened onto the balcony
20:02and Witherset managed to acquire some very fine champagne,
20:06I might say.
20:07I didn't have any celebratory drinks.
20:09I didn't think that was appropriate.
20:11And David Smith started speaking.
20:14He wasn't met with a cheery reception.
20:18And I was standing next to a man.
20:20We had his little daughter on his shoulders.
20:22He was pointing at Fraser and he was saying,
20:25don't you ever let anyone tell you that's your Prime Minister.
20:28Boffert them is your Prime Minister.
20:30And he was crying and I started crying.
20:32Some people spotted us and came and shouted abuse at us.
20:36Raised our glasses to them.
20:39Proclamation by His Excellency the Governor-General of Australia.
20:47The minute David Smith read the proclamation,
20:50there was a huge bow.
20:51Just out of the corner of my left eye, I could see Whitlam.
20:55Almost biblically, the crowd parted and he came down the steps
20:59and he stood right behind David Smith's shoulder.
21:02I couldn't really hear him because there was a lot of noise.
21:13And then David Smith ended with...
21:15God save the Queen.
21:17Which of course Gough had dropped and instituted Australian honours.
21:22God save the Queen was kind of passe, but it was back.
21:26Whitlam stepped forward.
21:30Everything sort of hushed a bit because Gough was going to say something.
21:33And as we all know, his famous words.
21:35Well may God save the Queen.
21:37God may save the Queen.
21:39Well may we say God save the Queen.
21:42Well of course nothing will save the Governor-General.
21:45Ray said the mob.
21:47And we're up there on the balcony raising our glasses.
21:50And this was vintage Whitlam.
21:52This is the sort of thing that the crowd expected.
21:56Gough completely spoke off the cuff.
21:59It would have been impossible to write in advance
22:01and we hadn't had anything to do with it.
22:03He had a flair for the dramatic
22:06and he did that with all the Jews there.
22:08The proclamation which you have just heard read
22:12by the Governor-General's official secretary
22:15was countersigned Malcolm Fraser.
22:21Who will undoubtedly go down in Australian history
22:25from Remembrance Day 1975 as Kerr's Kerr.
22:31His chosen words were deliberate and very pointed
22:35but very, very strong.
22:36And I knew then that this was one of the moments
22:40in Australian political history.
22:42That stuck in my mind.
22:44To me it was very profound.
22:51Word came through that there was something going on
22:54at Government House.
22:55Our plan was just to stir the pot.
22:57We got a sheet and some black paint
23:00and on the sheet we just wrote suck-o-gough
23:03and off we went to Government House.
23:05Well when we got there, there was this crowd developing.
23:09There was a mob and they were chanting
23:11and there was almost tears and hysterics.
23:14The sergeant of police called in all these reinforcements
23:18securing the primitive.
23:19Somebody's decided that they wanted to get into the Government House
23:22so they all got there and they all tried to lift the boom gates.
23:24The police were holding the boom gates down.
23:26All they had to do was walk around.
23:27They'd walk underneath it.
23:28But anyway, that wouldn't have looked as spectacular.
23:30We retired to the small drawing room again
23:33and we sat there where we had coffee and pour.
23:36We could hear the noise of the crowd at the main gate.
23:39So there was a sort of bit of excitement.
23:42We're walking down the concrete path
23:45and at this end is my partner.
23:48We held our sign up and I reckon it took about a minute or so
23:52before the crowd really realised, hey, these two young punks,
23:57they're not on our side.
23:58There was such anger and that I saw that on my partner's face
24:02and he was not like that.
24:04I'd never seen such anger on his face.
24:07They turned on us, screaming in our faces
24:10and calling us Nazis and all sorts of stuff.
24:13We're only kids!
24:14Sergeant Southwell came into the small drawing room,
24:17pulled out from under his arm this banner.
24:20They were really, really angry.
24:21You could just see the venom in their eyes.
24:24This is the banner that was confiscated
24:26by the Federal Police.
24:28Stay in Whitlam.
24:31Out the Kerr.
24:32General Strike.
24:41Mr Hawke, can we have a few words?
24:43Yeah, yeah.
24:45At the steps, the crowd was still buzzing.
24:47There was a lot of action happening.
24:49Are you critical of the Governor-General's action?
24:51I think that the Governor-General's decision is wrong,
24:53but I'm not going to engage in personal criticism of him.
24:55But his decision is an incorrect one.
24:57Thank you very much.
24:58That's right!
24:59That's right!
25:00People were loud and they were very worked up.
25:03Have we got any Fraser supporters here at all?
25:08Really, the world had been turned upside down.
25:10It really was a silly day, mad day.
25:13We got to work writing the story.
25:15We finished filing quite late.
25:18Everybody was heading to Charlie's restaurant,
25:21which was a late night hangout for journos and Parliament House staff.
25:27There was a lot of angst.
25:29Lunik was there.
25:31I think that might have been me.
25:33Because I remember sitting there like this all night.
25:36I had my first cigarette and I ended up with a huge burn on my finger.
25:41So that was a little reminder of the events too.
25:50Next morning up and about for the swearing in of the new Prime Minister,
25:54Malcolm Fraser and the Liberal Ministry.
25:56And then there was another afternoon tea.
25:58Everybody was traumatised.
26:00And it seemed incredibly unfair that it was my birthday.
26:05Well, it was actually in the paper.
26:07You know, at a Kenorkie School in a Canberra newspaper.
26:10So I bought a copy.
26:11There was obviously somebody at the Canberra Times that was there.
26:13So the only obvious non-Labour supporters
26:15were 16-year-old Geoff Didier and his 15-year-old friend,
26:18who bravely displayed a banner, Sucko Goff.
26:21So that was my claim to fame for the next day.
26:24The Public Service sort of came to a standstill,
26:27awaiting the election.
26:30Gough just kind of led us into getting ready for a campaign.
26:35There were protests all over the country.
26:38But as I've come to learn,
26:41the people you get out in the streets
26:43aren't necessarily the people who are going to decide the election.
26:47On election night, we're all sitting on the edges of our seats.
26:57But very quickly, it became apparent that the Coalition had won.
27:01We lost a lot of seats.
27:03Lost a lot of seats.
27:05Oh, it broke my heart.
27:06They'd been through so much.
27:08They achieved so much.
27:09Fraser was elected in his own right.
27:12He was our boss.
27:13And then we had to work out how we were going to deal with it.
27:17There was a certain amount of hostility
27:20between the Labour Party and the Liberal Party.
27:24We never trusted the Liberals.
27:27The Labour Party sort of felt that we was robbed.
27:30We won two elections.
27:32You wouldn't accept it.
27:33You'd been in power for 23 years.
27:36On the other hand, people on our side say,
27:39well, hang on.
27:40We had an election.
27:41We won it overwhelmingly.
27:42We all know that governments will make tough decisions,
27:46usually after they're elected,
27:47because they know they'll become unpopular.
27:49It's a strategy.
27:50So you just can't say by throwing it back to the people
27:53that it was fair.
27:54And that's caused me to reflect on it.
27:56I went from being a supporter, in a sense,
27:58in the early days of Sir John, you know, now,
28:01to looking at with a much more critical eye
28:03and coming down on the other side of the fence.
28:05I know I waxed lyrical about Gough Whitlam,
28:08but he was a gift to Australia.
28:10And we trust him.
28:13And he was very gracious about it.
28:15Whitlam became a martyr.
28:17Fraser was initially treated pretty harshly by history,
28:23but he did actually do some very good things.
28:27He doubled the allocation for women's refuges,
28:31on my word.
28:33And that has stuck with me.
28:36Helping with the dismantling of apartheid,
28:39and on Indigenous affairs.
28:43When he and Whitlam had aged and became friends,
28:47I could understand why.
28:49I think, you know, the villain clearly was Kerr.
28:53It ruined Sir John's life.
28:55We've all seen the cartoons of him,
28:57the silly top hat and getting drunk at the Melbourne Cup,
29:00and he was a laughing stock.
29:02Yeah, Venner General.
29:03What kind of job is that?
29:05La, la, la, la, la, la, la, la.
29:10Roaming around like a fool in a big top hat.
29:13La, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la.
29:16He turned out to be a terribly sad figure in history,
29:19and I think he deserved what he got.
29:21Well, I thought the way John Kerr was made
29:24the villain of the piece was quite wrong.
29:26The powers he exercised were the powers given to him
29:31under the Australian Constitution.
29:34I never really changed my views as far as being
29:37more on the conservative side of politics.
29:38I still am.
29:39It's interesting that I sort of look back now.
29:41How can one person just sack a whole government?
29:44The public need to do that always.
29:46We need to vote.
29:47It was a political solution
29:49that the Governor-General had no part making,
29:52which should never have happened.
29:54It was a day in Australian history like none other,
29:58but it was a critical day
30:00because it took the Constitution right to the brink.
30:03The main lesson, I think,
30:06is that parliamentary democracy has survived.
30:11The people determine what shall happen.
30:33The people in Ireland
30:35are completely different.
30:36The people in Ireland
30:41are always different.
30:43The people around the world
30:45are always different than their work
30:47to be more careful.
30:50The people in Ireland
30:51can't become more comfortable.
30:52They're always different.
30:54The people in Ireland
30:55are always different.
30:57At the time,
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