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00:00So, there is a trend globally now, where people are saying and people who claim to be the
00:19guardians of religion are telling people, and I think this is not a nuisance trend,
00:25and it's grown recently, telling you that your religion is in danger and therefore you
00:32need to stand up for your religion and protect your religion.
00:40This is happening globally.
00:43What would you say to that?
00:45And I am asking this question in the light that what this is leading to probably is it
00:52is in conflict with the value that you mentioned, that of fraternity.
00:58But if you are threatened by the other person, because of their religion, because of their
01:04nationality, without knowing the other person, then there is no way that you can put yourself
01:09in the other person's shoes.
01:12So there seems to be a conflict between this philosophy that you need to protect your religion,
01:20and this constitutional value of fraternity.
01:25What do we do?
01:26Not just fraternity.
01:27If you go into the fundamental duties, Article 51a, Inquiry, Scientific Temperament and Reform.
01:39These three happen to be fundamental duties.
01:42They are very threatened when you say, you know, my religion is better than yours, or when
01:47you are threatening my religion, so I will fight you and all that.
01:50See, Dharma is never threatened.
01:56Only belief systems are threatened.
02:00And beliefs are very vulnerable, they would always be threatened.
02:04So whenever you cast a belief system as religion, this religion will be extremely insecure and
02:11vulnerable.
02:13Your religion is that blue board created the universe.
02:24That's what your belief system says.
02:26Because cosmology are an integral part of all belief systems, religious belief systems.
02:32Where did the world come from?
02:34So it came from that blue board.
02:38And my belief system says it came from my mic.
02:42The world originated from this mic that I am holding.
02:46Now there is no way your belief system is compatible with mine.
02:49So we will fight.
02:52Because facts don't quarrel with each other.
02:56X square equals 4 will not quarrel with X equals plus minus 2.
03:05Because these are facts.
03:06They won't quarrel with each other.
03:07Even they are expressed differently, facts will always agree with each other.
03:11They are compatible with each other.
03:12And when facts are not compatible with each other, then you challenge the theory itself.
03:16And then you say we need a better theory.
03:17Because the theory is not matching the fact.
03:21But imaginations, which is nothing but belief, imaginations will always quarrel with each other.
03:28You think that particular direction is sacred.
03:31My belief is that this direction is sacred.
03:34Right?
03:35So, you do not think this direction is sacred, right?
03:39So you face in this direction and start peeing.
03:42But to me this direction is sacred and then I will fight with you and I will slaughter you.
03:47Beliefs will always clash with each other.
03:49And that's the fundamental problem.
03:51That which we call as Lok Dharma or popular religion.
03:55That is not based on observation and realization.
03:59It is just a belief system.
04:00I believe this way.
04:01And unfortunately we have given too much respect to this word belief.
04:06Aastha, Maneta, Vishwas, Dharana, so much respect we give to these things.
04:13A great logician, somebody coming from an intellectual line, he would not shy away from any kind of argument or debate.
04:24Right?
04:25He would relish it.
04:26Come on, give me a good debate.
04:27It stimulates me.
04:29But faced with someone who is expressing his belief, this person would retreat.
04:35The intellectual would retreat.
04:36Because he says, you know, how do I offend his belief?
04:39So much respect we have given to belief that belief has dominated religion altogether.
04:46Not dominated.
04:47Belief has usurped religion.
04:49Belief has become religion.
04:50Whereas, when you look at Sanatana Dharma, Shruti, there is no space for belief at all.
04:56It is about Atma Valokan leading to Atma Gyan.
05:01So, you watch yourself.
05:02The scientific method.
05:03You look at yourself.
05:04You look at the world.
05:05And there is epistemology.
05:07There are Pramanas.
05:08You have to ask, where is your knowledge coming from?
05:11Is your knowledge real?
05:12Or is it coming from just an assumption?
05:14Or an imagination?
05:16So, Vedanta for example.
05:19Vedanta is not just religion.
05:21Before being religion, it is also a philosophy.
05:23And it's a very sound philosophy.
05:25Especially Advaita Vedanta is classically taken as the last philosophy.
05:29Because the philosopher itself is consumed by this philosophy.
05:33The two become one.
05:35There is no philosopher left for any more philosophization.
05:39So, that philosophy asks for proof.
05:42Praman.
05:43Praman.
05:44Belief system needs no Praman.
05:46Belief says, I am my own Praman.
05:48I believe this.
05:49So, you have to agree with me, else I am killing you.
05:52And that's why there is so much conflict between religions.
05:55As long as religions continue to be based on belief, religions will keep fighting with each other.
06:01And religions will remain one of the biggest problems that humanity faces.
06:05And religion at the same time can be the biggest blessing that humanity has if religions are founded on both.
06:13Shruti says, bodho aham.
06:15I am realisation itself.
06:19And from this bodh, what proceeds is liberation.
06:22Liberation from bondage, ignorance.
06:24Maya is another name for avidya, agyan.
06:27Which is bondage, ignorance are together.
06:29So, belief is Maya.
06:31Belief is avidya.
06:32Belief is agyan.
06:33Right?
06:34And mukti is nothing.
06:37But cutting through this Maya, which means challenging your manneta, which is belief.
06:43So, real religion is actually freedom from false religion.
06:48Real religion is nothing but freedom from false religion.
06:53Which means that if today, you have to bring forth real religion, you will have no option.
06:59But to engage, even if unwillingly, in a manner of conflict with the forces of false religion.
07:11I hope I am not taking it too far.
07:13No, no.
07:14Is it still intelligible?
07:15Absolutely.
07:16Fine, thank you.
07:17Sir, please.
07:18Thank you very nicely put.
07:21One of the original questions you had is that religion is in danger.
07:27So, a bit humorously, religion is in danger from the very people who are trying to protect it.
07:40No, I am not a witty guy, but somehow.
07:42Our scripture says, dharmo rakshati rakshita.
07:48If you want to protect your religion, follow the religion.
07:52And we are not following it.
07:53But, I would say one thing.
07:55I would not lay the blame entirely on religion, because this fear mongering.
08:00The most adverse example in recent times was Adolf Hitler.
08:06He used fear as a political tool.
08:11And then, you know, so much research has been done down to say, you know, religion is a new thing.
08:17In America, they started saying that American values are in danger, which is a code word for the white domination is in danger.
08:25And Orban, and, what is it, Ordogan, Islam is in danger in Turkey, and some other values are in danger somewhere else.
08:36Now, psychology has shown, lot of psychological research has been done.
08:41And what it shows is that, the human mind, in large numbers, in country after country, responds much more to fear.
08:54So, you spread fear, you get people on your side, and you are home.
09:00Now, what needs to be done, I don't know if that question, you did ask, what should we do?
09:06We should, first of all, do exactly what we are doing now, all of us, that we need to discuss things properly.
09:13And, we also need to do, think about how to tackle this fear.
09:20There are some methods, but I will just give one suggestion and leave it at that.
09:24You know, all this, it's a massive effort.
09:27All this goody-goody stuff that we are all brothers, and let's all live together happily.
09:31It's okay, we should keep saying that.
09:34We should say that we are in great danger of being destroyed by the people who are spreading fear.
09:44Those who spread fear are the enemies of society.
09:48Those who spread wrong things about religion are the enemies of society.
09:53Whenever we have been divided in India, we have suffered.
09:57So, let us unite those who try to split us on the basis of caste, religion, gender, whatever.
10:03They are the enemies of society. I am just giving a thought.
10:06So, we have to really think creatively, because last hundred years, we have seen that country after country has been ravaged by just spreading this fear.
10:17It could be fear of religion, it could be fear of race, it could be fear of losing domination, fear of our culture being lost, whatever it is.
10:25So, we have to find ways of fighting fear, because this is a primeval human raw emotion, which is being completely exploited by power hungry people.
10:38And what's wonderful is, when the Shanti part of the Upanishads closes with Om Shanti Shanti Shanti Shanti, it is addressing the Tāpatraya.
10:53Which, I say, loosely translates into fear itself.
11:04If you say that, one of the things that the Upanishads, that is the Shruti, seeks to address, or seeks to achieve, is freedom from fear.
11:15Freedom from fear.
11:18So, it's a very curious thing.
11:21If you want to bring back true religion, you will have to liberate people from fear.
11:27And to liberate people from fear, you will have to bring them to true religion.
11:32Which means, sir was exactly right when he said, we need more occasions like these.
11:38We need more conversations like these.
11:41Instead of conversations, if we have lecturing, if we have authority figures who say, we receive our command directly from Bhagawan,
11:50and now we are disseminating stuff to you and don't question to us, because it is coming directly from there.
11:56Then, that's equal to fear.
11:59You cannot talk to me, you cannot question me.
12:02I am a huge authority.
12:04What else is fear, if not this?
12:08So, one more point I'll make.
12:09I think this is a very deep question.
12:11Like, you know, this fear of religion, religion is in danger, etc.
12:16You see, today, our world, particularly in India, we can say, is changing very fast.
12:22Our joblessness is growing, migration is at an all-time high, social media with fake news is at an all-time high, climate change is going on.
12:30And there is a lot of uncertainty about various things.
12:33Today, we find that India, or maybe other countries also, particularly post-Covid, very high levels of stress, mental stress.
12:43So, uncertainty, stress, whatever the reasons are, it is there.
12:47What do normal human beings do, and I think most people are normal in a certain sense.
12:52What do they do?
12:53They turn to religion, number one.
12:56Number two, they want peace and security by going to the great authoritarian leader.
13:02You said, no, 78% want.
13:04Because they want some peace of mind, that somebody is out there, he is very powerful, maybe not God, but almost like God, and he or she will take care of all my problems.
13:12This is actually a temporary, it's not, these kind of feelings come up during crisis.
13:19And the crisis is, India is undergoing more change than we know.
13:24Rapid urbanization, slums, migration, social media, mental stress, joblessness, so many things are happening.
13:33And we look for two things, either God and religion, and a great leader who will save us from all these problems.
13:40That is the normal human reaction.
13:42And we have to find a way forward out of this.
13:45Collectively, because, I don't know, if God wanted to save us, he would have already come and saved us.
13:52So, we have to save ourselves. We have to find some creative ways.
13:57Sir, that's the thing. Culture, as it is commonly practiced, will never say save yourself.
14:04It will say, the real powerful agency lies outside of you.
14:09So, it all depends on him.
14:11Vahiyoga is what he wants.
14:13Whereas, real religion, Shruti, brings you back to yourself and says the final truth is Atman.
14:19That pure self, which is you.
14:21So, you have to, as you said, you have to solve it for yourself.
14:24But, Lok Dharma, which is popular religion leading to Lok Sanskriti, which is popular culture,
14:29will never allow you to have the inner courage or clarity or authority to challenge your problems.
14:38It will make you, as you said, roll at the feet of some authoritarian leader or guru.
14:43And that brings us to a very dead-end kind of a point.
14:49So, somebody has to like blast up in the way.
14:58I don't know about you all, but I am in another world right now.
15:05I had tears from my eyes.
15:09Just given the kind of wisdom I am receiving in the middle of these two figures.
15:14And I've…
15:18You have a trap of authoritarianism.
15:20Yes.
15:21Yes.
15:24Yes.
15:25So, not making you…
15:26I am fond of saying something.
15:27That's right.
15:28You know how anti-authoritarian the Upanishads are?
15:33Not just the Upanishads.
15:34Even the Prakaran Grants of Vedanta, which are the associated, affiliated…
15:39There are lots of scriptures.
15:40Not all of them are Upanishads that deal with Vedanta.
15:44For example, Lashta Ugr Gita, Udhud Gita, Ribhu Gita, and numbers of…
15:48You know what they say?
15:50They say, there is no need to keep offering respect.
15:53That day you are done with us.
15:57That day we have delivered our purpose.
15:59You treat us like Kakvishtha.
16:02Which is the excreta of the crow.
16:04At some point they even say, you know, you keep us alive.
16:09You push us aside and burn us.
16:11You don't need us.
16:12You don't need us.
16:14The purpose is utilitarian.
16:17You are the purpose.
16:19Your liberation is the purpose.
16:21Venerating somebody else is not the purpose.
16:24Real religion is about this human being.
16:27It is very utilitarian.
16:28It is not about you reaching Swarg or Nurk or worshipping somebody and proving to be a great devotee.
16:34No, that's not true religion.
16:35True religion is about you.
16:37Which means you have to be free of your suffering.
16:41That's the only purpose of religion.
16:43And that's what is called Mukti.
16:45I am there.
16:46My Dukh is there.
16:47My Dukh is there.
16:48Vatambuddha.
16:49As Sir said, the great disruptor after Shri Krishna.
16:53What did he say?
16:54First noble truth.
16:55Sarvam Dukham.
16:56This is all Dukh.
16:58And what else is the Nirvana?
17:00Gaining freedom from this Dukh.
17:02Through realization.
17:04Through realization.
17:05Not by bowing down Shat Shatnaman.
17:09You are great.
17:10You are great.
17:11Upanishad says you are great.
17:13Nobody else is great.
17:14There is only one greatness and that lies within you.
17:17And if there happens to be a real Guru.
17:19His job is not to demand greatness for himself or obeisance for himself.
17:24His job is to bring you to a point where you do not even need the Guru.
17:28Where you discover that you are the Absolute.
17:30This sounds fantastic.
17:32I mean, I understand that this sounds kind of impossible and all that.
17:35But please understand the Spirit.
17:37The Upanishads are not trying to turn you into a blind follower or devotee.
17:42That's not what Sanatana Dharma is about.
17:44It's very unfortunate that Sanatana Dharma has become a Dharma of blind devotion.
17:48That was never the Indian Spirit.
17:50That was never the Indian Spirit.
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