- 4 months ago
UK Prime Minister Keir Starmer has used his conference speech to attack Reform UK's Nigel Farage saying he “doesn’t like Britain”.
The prime minister warned against “the politics of grievance” and said that the UK is at a “fork in the road”. In response Nigel Farage has accused Starmer of being an unfit PM.
Adam, Chris and Alex discuss this, as well as two policy announcements from the speech surrounding further education and the creation of NHS Online.
You can now listen to Newscast on a smart speaker. If you want to listen, just say "Ask BBC Sounds to play Newscast”. It works on most smart speakers.
The prime minister warned against “the politics of grievance” and said that the UK is at a “fork in the road”. In response Nigel Farage has accused Starmer of being an unfit PM.
Adam, Chris and Alex discuss this, as well as two policy announcements from the speech surrounding further education and the creation of NHS Online.
You can now listen to Newscast on a smart speaker. If you want to listen, just say "Ask BBC Sounds to play Newscast”. It works on most smart speakers.
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NewsTranscript
00:00When was the last time that you heard Nigel Farage say anything positive about Britain's future?
00:07He can't. He doesn't like Britain. He doesn't believe in Britain.
00:12He wants you to doubt it just as much as he does.
00:15Keir Starmer ups the ante in his rhetorical battle with Nigel Farage
00:20in his speech here at the Labour Party conference in Liverpool.
00:23Why is he saying this and what else did he say?
00:26We will discuss in this latest episode of the BBC's Daily News podcast, Newscast.
00:33Hello, it's Adam at the Labour Party conference in Liverpool.
00:37Hello, it's Alex also at the Labour Party conference in Liverpool.
00:39And Chris in Liverpool as well.
00:40So behind us there is an event. I'm not sure what cause it is for,
00:44but there is corks popping, so they're obviously having something fizzy.
00:48Chris, will there be corks popping in Labour HQ tonight after Keir Starmer's conference speech?
00:52You're good at this, aren't you? This is not your first rodeo.
00:56Um, I think they, yeah, I think they'll be pleased that they have sharpened their argument
01:03on the biggest of kind of political stages around the whole question of reform.
01:08So, look, there's some people, I've spent the last couple of days just like drinking gallons of tea,
01:13speaking to all sorts of folk in the Labour Party from the cabinet down.
01:15There are some, by the way, who worry the party's talking too much about reform,
01:20who say, hang on a minute, what about the party losing votes to its left,
01:24to the Liberal Democrats, to the Greens, to others?
01:26And do you run the risk of raising reform's profile by talking about them the whole time
01:32when they're a party with not very many MPs and the next election is a million miles away?
01:35That was in the cork going off, wasn't it?
01:37Um, but I'd say the most people I speak to at all levels of the party recognise
01:43that you've just got to take on reform.
01:45They're doing so well in the opinion polls, they're winning elections,
01:47they're dominating the political conversation.
01:49So you've got to lean into that.
01:52And I think what we got from Keir Starmer today was his answer
01:56to what loads of folk privately within the party have been telling him,
01:59which is that the party needs to be punchier,
02:01it needs to cower less and be more confident,
02:04it needs to paint more in primary colours,
02:05it needs to be willing to be politically quite aggressive
02:08because they're up against someone who is all of those things
02:11in how he prosecutes his argument, Nigel Farage.
02:14And I think this was Keir Starmer's attempt to do that.
02:17I was just going to add on that.
02:18I think what is a really important point about this is
02:20I think it was actually a change in strategy that we've seen
02:23in this conference about the approach to Reform UK.
02:25There has been a criticism from some in the party.
02:27They've been ignoring the Labour left
02:29and they've been sort of aping or mimicking
02:31some of the language or approach of Reform UK.
02:33This conference has been about drawing a very clear line between that.
02:36So this calling out from a Labour perspective of Reform UK's policies,
02:41I actually think it's designed to appeal to the Labour left as well,
02:44you know, to take the fight to Reform UK,
02:46not to be seen to be following in Reform UK's footsteps.
02:49I think that's where we've seen the sort of difference.
02:52And I think they also hope that by sharpening the dividing line
02:55between Labour and Reform,
02:57whatever people's views of Keir Starmer,
02:59and there's some pretty punchy ones,
03:01that they can unite around a common opponent.
03:05And particularly, someone said to me today,
03:06someone very senior said to me today,
03:08look, there's nothing the left likes to wrestle with
03:11about it than something they regard as a grave, grave injustice
03:16and racism being one of those things.
03:19And if they can make an argument that galvanises the party around that,
03:25then that can hang them together.
03:27Potentially, as Keir Starmer said,
03:29appeal to people who are not natural Labour supporters
03:31but would be repelled by the idea of Nigel Farage as Prime Minister.
03:34And, yeah, I think that's what they're trying to do.
03:36Yeah, and I just think the Labour movement,
03:38the heart of the Labour movement,
03:40the left ventricle is fighting against injustice.
03:44The right ventricle is fighting against racism.
03:46Hence why, in Keir Starmer's speech today,
03:48the most rapturous applause was,
03:50first of all, for him recognising a Palestinian state.
03:53And that was in the wake of the Gaza peace plan from the White House,
03:56which we'll talk about in a second.
03:57And then the other big rousing round of applause was when he said,
04:02we will fight Nigel Farage's racist policies with everything we've got.
04:06That's appealing to the whole Labour heart there.
04:09Alex, though, this word racism and racist is now being used a lot.
04:13I mean, I remember a period of about two weeks ago
04:15when actually it was just one of the words you just wouldn't really use
04:18or you wouldn't hear in political discourse
04:20because it was such a serious accusation to make of somebody
04:23that they were proposing something that was racist.
04:25But now, just in the last 48 hours,
04:27it's tumbling off everyone's lips constantly here.
04:29Yeah, and it really has only been 48 hours
04:31because it was Keir Starmer who first used the word racist
04:34about a Reform UK policy on Sunday with Laura Grinsberg.
04:37And at that moment, that became the headline
04:39because it was notable and extraordinary
04:41that he had used a serious accusation,
04:43but also a heavy, very serious turn.
04:46Now, it has been repeated again and again
04:49by Cabinet ministers on the air.
04:50I mean, they are trying to be very, very careful
04:52in drawing a distinction between calling
04:54the policy of Reform UK racist from their perspective
04:58and that specific policy about abolishing indefinite leave
05:00to remain the right of some migrants to settle in the UK permanently.
05:03They are saying that is a racist policy from a Labour perspective,
05:06but they are also being very clear to say
05:08they're not saying that that means that Reform UK supporters are racist
05:11and they're trying to say,
05:12we understand the concerns of Reform UK supporters about immigration.
05:15It's quite a nuanced argument.
05:17And the risk and the jeopardy for the party
05:18is that the nuance just gets lost.
05:21And the more they use that term,
05:22even if they're trying to draw that careful distinction,
05:25the more people just might hear it,
05:27that actually it's being sort of sprayed around.
05:29And the very people that they're trying to kind of win back
05:31or appeal to, those Reform UK people looking towards Reform UK,
05:35it could end up alienating.
05:36And there's the jeopardy around the use of such a strong term like that,
05:38despite the fact it's provided a huge rallying point
05:41here at the Labour conference.
05:42It's just one of those words, isn't it, in political conversation,
05:44that you could have an entire A4 page
05:46with however many words on it.
05:47And that one word is just bigger than almost anything else.
05:52And Alex, into the mix of this,
05:53has stepped the Deputy Prime Minister, David Lammy.
05:56Yeah, and I think this is quite symptomatic
05:57of the issue that the party could have around this use of language.
06:01So David Lammy was on Politics Live,
06:03BBC programme with Vicky Young,
06:05reacting to Keir Starmer's speech.
06:07And he said in one of his responses,
06:10that he sort of signalled that Nigel Farage
06:12had flirted with Hitler youth.
06:14In his youth.
06:16Yes, in his, sorry, yes, to be clear, in his youth.
06:19Now, Reform UK completely denied that
06:21and said it was beneath contempt, that it was libelous.
06:23David Lammy then came on BBC News Channel
06:25and I said to him, you know,
06:26Reform UK have said this is contemptuous,
06:27this kind of language, it's, you know, libelous.
06:29And David Lammy then clarified his remarks
06:32and said, actually, I accept that Reform UK have denied this
06:35and I want to play the policy,
06:37play the ball, not the man.
06:39So it was quite a sort of swift turnaround from that.
06:41I think that just is kind of symptomatic
06:43of where there is a bit of a risk here.
06:45And clarify this political speak for saying
06:47the opposite of what you said a couple of hours previously.
06:49Well, newscasters can hear for themselves
06:51how this entire story arc played out
06:53because here is David Lammy version one
06:55at lunchtime on BBC Two.
06:56So yes or no, is Nigel Farage a racist?
07:00I answered your question,
07:02I'm not going to play the man,
07:03I'm playing the ball as our leader did.
07:05I will leave it for the public
07:07to come to their own judgments
07:08about someone who once flirted
07:10with Hitler Youth when he was younger.
07:13That is for the public.
07:14But we will be absolutely clear
07:16about the policy choice before the British people
07:19in the years ahead
07:21as we head to the general election.
07:22And then here is David Lammy version two
07:25with Alex a couple of hours later.
07:27I think there were some articles
07:29circling around from a teacher
07:31but I wasn't at school with Nigel Farage.
07:33I don't know what songs he sang at school.
07:37So I'm happy to clarify.
07:40I did say it's for the public to make up their mind
07:43and I did also emphasise
07:44that let us play the ball, not the man.
07:47So it's not my intention to play the man, Nigel Farage.
07:50In fact, I did a show with Nigel Farage
07:54and LBC a few years ago.
07:56Let us concentrate on the ball, the policy.
07:58The policy, which is the deportation policy.
08:01His policies on the NHS,
08:03which I think is to charge
08:04and his policies on lowering tax cuts,
08:07which would lead to the bomb markets,
08:09not the man.
08:10To be totally clear,
08:11you're pulling back from that comment that you made.
08:14He has denied it
08:15and so I accept that he has denied it
08:17and I would like to clarify that position
08:19because in the end,
08:21the Prime Minister was keen
08:22for us to focus on the policies,
08:24not the individual.
08:25Let's talk about one.
08:26So you're an example there
08:27of like when you up the ante
08:28on whether things are racist or not,
08:30that sometimes people can get
08:31maybe a bit carried away.
08:34Also talking about upping the ante,
08:36okay, Starmer upped the ante
08:37when it came to Nigel Farage,
08:39then instantly Nigel Farage upped the ante again
08:42on Starmer with his own response.
08:44Yeah, and this is a sort of nerdy observation,
08:47but sort of worthwhile as an example
08:48of how reform are willing to tear up
08:51kind of longstanding kind of conventions
08:53really around conference season
08:54because what's tended to happen in the past
08:56is each party will have its conference
08:58and pretty much accept
09:00that they are the few days in the sun
09:01for that party
09:02and the other parties sort of
09:04just don't do very much in public
09:06and they don't get much coverage for it
09:08as opposed to your normal political storytelling
09:11where you hear clips
09:12from all the different parties
09:13on any given day
09:14depending on what is in the news.
09:15And today, what, minutes really
09:18after the Prime Minister had finished,
09:19Nigel Farage is doing a news conference
09:21and so inviting questioning
09:23around what he makes
09:25of what the Prime Minister has said.
09:26Now, I guess, you know,
09:27in Mr Farage's defence
09:28there's been this very pointed accusation
09:30that's been put to him
09:30perhaps more so than tends to happen
09:33in party conference political knockabout.
09:36But him saying that he believes
09:39the use of that word
09:40and I think this predated his awareness
09:42of what David Lammy went on to say
09:45that the Prime Minister's accusation
09:48that that policy around
09:49indefinite leave to remain
09:50amounted to racism
09:51was something that imperiled
09:53the safety of his own team,
09:55his own party staff
09:57and that that angered him sufficiently
09:59that it doubled down his determination
10:01to do well in those elections
10:02coming up next May, etc, etc.
10:05And so, even, you know,
10:07within the politics
10:08of the last few days
10:09the extent to which that word
10:12because it's so big
10:14and it's such a big thing
10:15to accuse others of
10:17can end up being
10:20this sort of lightning rod
10:21around which a conversation
10:22then rumbles
10:23and also where anger sets in.
10:25So I was really struck that, you know,
10:26Nigel Farage made the point of saying
10:28that he had reckoned
10:30that despite their different world view
10:32Keir Starman was decent.
10:33Yeah, and they could have a chat
10:35and they could have a chat
10:36and actually a couple of months ago
10:38Keir Starman in the House of Commons
10:39walked across the floor
10:40and walked up the steps
10:41and shook Nigel Farage by the hand
10:43and they had a bit of a chat
10:44and both sides briefed afterwards
10:46look, they're human beings
10:47they can have a chat
10:48David Lammy made the point
10:49he used to do a show
10:49with Nigel Farage
10:51so, you know, it's that sort of thing
10:52but when you, I think this all speaks
10:54to exactly what the conversation
10:55we're having
10:56which is when you start to make
10:58those very serious accusations
10:59and use those tones
11:00it ups the ante across the board
11:02and while here
11:03I think that has proven
11:04to be really popular
11:05with people that wanted
11:07the Labour Party
11:08to take a much stronger stance
11:09on this
11:10and to be punchier
11:10I think the risk
11:12that comes with that
11:13is that the ante gets upped
11:14and the conversation
11:15you know, goes places
11:17that you might not have
11:17thought that it would initially
11:19or even hoped it would
11:20just out the corner of my eye
11:22I can see some screens
11:23that have got our news coverage
11:24on it on television
11:25and your piece, Chris
11:27on the 6 o'clock news
11:28Labour HQ will be really happy
11:29with how it looks
11:30because it's a sea of flags
11:31Union Jacks
11:33England flags
11:34Scotland flags
11:34Wales flags
11:35and that sends a very strong
11:37visual message
11:37about patriotism
11:38I mean, some people might think
11:39the tune's the last night
11:40of the proms by accident
11:41Yeah, yeah
11:41That would have loads of EU flags
11:43But then that again
11:44is part of this
11:45part of this imagery
11:46that they're attempting
11:47to project
11:47about how they define
11:49patriotism
11:49and also
11:50how they believe
11:51the flag
11:53can be proudly flown
11:54but where they then
11:55draw a line
11:56a legitimacy line
11:58if you like
11:59between what they see
12:00as a laudable use
12:01of the flag
12:02and what they would see
12:02as a device
12:03of an exclusionary
12:04use of flags
12:06But again
12:06it's an example
12:07of how reform
12:08have completely shaken
12:09the kind of snow globe
12:10of politics
12:10That wouldn't have happened
12:12a couple of years ago
12:13Not because there aren't
12:13Labour folk
12:14who are patriotic
12:15or comfortable
12:15or uncomfortable
12:16with flags
12:16There'll be the full range
12:17of views around flags
12:19no doubt
12:19But that a political
12:21decision was taken
12:22that they were going
12:23to hand out flags
12:24and the flags
12:25of the different nations
12:26of the UK
12:26as well as the Union flag
12:27to make a point
12:29alongside that picture
12:30from Shropshire
12:31alongside that rift
12:32about different landscapes
12:35in the UK
12:36and different sporting teams
12:37in the UK
12:38that that is
12:39their definition
12:40of being patriotic
12:42and then also
12:43trying to lean into
12:44a sense of pride
12:45and I know they've
12:46kicked this around privately
12:47how do you
12:48simultaneously
12:49sound positive
12:51about who we are
12:53and our country
12:54and our collection
12:55of nations
12:55without sounding
12:57like you're saying
12:57to people who are struggling
12:58everything is great
13:00and that is a difficult
13:01line to tread
13:02and I think that was
13:03we saw an attempt
13:04by the Prime Ministers
13:05to do that today
13:06Well except it ended up
13:07being, I mean
13:08garbled isn't maybe
13:09the right word
13:10but he did this whole
13:11theme about Britain's
13:12not broken
13:13and then there's this
13:13quite neat rhetorical
13:14device he had
13:15of picking out people
13:16in the audience
13:16who'd done great things
13:17to their communities
13:18like setting up
13:19a girls football club
13:20in their school
13:21or rebuilding a library
13:23and he said
13:24Britain isn't broken
13:25but then the whole
13:25thrust of the speech
13:26was Britain's
13:27in need of renewal
13:27so it's either okay
13:29or it needs renewed
13:31which one is it
13:31I haven't quite worked out
13:32how those two things
13:33can be true at the same time
13:34Yeah and I think
13:35this is something
13:35that Labour's actually
13:36struggled with
13:36for much more
13:37than just this conference
13:38Oh yeah
13:38You know
13:39Keir Starmer had to
13:40acknowledge that
13:40the early days
13:41when he made that
13:42kind of doom and gloom
13:42speech
13:43that perhaps that
13:43wasn't the right approach
13:44because there is
13:45a really careful line
13:46between recognising
13:47what's going on
13:48in people's day-to-day lives
13:49and trying to reflect that
13:50and not making it feel
13:52like it's all blimmin' hopeless
13:53and saying actually
13:54we have got some
13:54of the solutions to it
13:55and the danger is
13:56it just does become
13:57a bit confused
13:58and you know
13:59I don't know
14:00did he strike
14:00the right balance today
14:01I've spoken to some people
14:02that suggest that
14:03it was actually really good
14:05to hear a bit of optimism
14:05and they've been looking
14:06for some of that
14:07and some of that
14:07kind of vision
14:08and this is a party
14:10that after
14:10as we've talked about
14:11loads and loads
14:11a difficult few weeks
14:13and months
14:13that they needed
14:14a sense of that optimism
14:15from Keir Starmer
14:16but you know
14:17with the backdrop
14:18of the budget
14:19and then everything
14:19we've heard about
14:20the realities of the choices
14:21that are going to come
14:21down the line
14:22it's whether or not
14:23it's that thing
14:24like I said
14:25last time we had
14:26this conversation
14:26how much are you speaking
14:27to the conference
14:28how much are you speaking
14:29to the country
14:29and are the two
14:30always compatible
14:31Is there a parallel universe
14:32where Keir Starmer
14:34could have been
14:35a little bit more candid
14:37about how unpopular
14:38he is personally
14:40because he didn't
14:41really nod to that
14:42at all
14:42He didn't really
14:43and look
14:44some of the personal
14:45polling for him
14:46by historical standards
14:48contemporary historical
14:49standards
14:50for prime ministers
14:50and we've had
14:51quite a few
14:52recent prime ministers
14:52who've not been
14:53wildly popular
14:54which has contributed
14:54to the number
14:55of prime ministers
14:56we've had recently
14:57his figures are dire
14:59I mean that's just
14:59and you know
15:01he knows that
15:02he didn't directly
15:03address it
15:03but it is the thing
15:04that lingers around
15:05this whole conference
15:06I've been actually
15:07surprised at the breadth
15:10and depth
15:11and the seniority
15:12of figures
15:13by the way
15:14including those
15:15who are desperate
15:16to see him succeed
15:16who don't want
15:18the job themselves
15:19there are others
15:20frankly who are
15:20on manoeuvres
15:21they're not trying
15:21to knife him
15:22there are some
15:23who would love
15:24the job themselves
15:25there are others
15:25who want him
15:26to succeed
15:27who are desperate
15:27to beat Nigel Farage
15:29but do worry
15:31about whether
15:31he's the front man
15:32whether he's
15:33the best front man
15:34for the job
15:35what else could he
15:36have done
15:36because you know
15:37when you're prime minister
15:38and it is about
15:38authority
15:39and it is about
15:39convincing people
15:40that you know
15:41they should stick
15:41with you
15:41and have faith
15:42which is the words
15:43that we heard
15:43the Chancellor use
15:44and you know
15:45that you're trying
15:45to rally the troops
15:46you can't really go
15:47oh guys
15:48I know not many folk
15:49like me
15:49but you know
15:50oh I'm going to
15:50sort it out
15:51and I think
15:51that's the sort of
15:52that's the
15:52and particularly now
15:54where that
15:54you'd be creating
15:55a meme
15:55wouldn't you
15:56sort of instantly
15:56where five seconds
15:58is lifted out
15:59of perhaps
15:59a nuanced paragraph
16:00it's that strange
16:01thing about politics
16:02that you know
16:02you want to
16:03at times be
16:04sort of humble
16:05or modest
16:05but can a leader
16:07show an awful
16:07amount of weakness
16:08without that
16:09coming back to bite them
16:10and also he is
16:11he is in a stronger
16:12position now
16:13than he was a few
16:13days ago
16:14because Andy Burnham
16:14has been vanquished
16:15now some people
16:16would argue
16:16Andy Burnham
16:17vanquished himself
16:18rather than by any
16:19kind of nimble
16:20manoeuvring by
16:20Keir Starmer
16:21but actually
16:22his leadership
16:23is a bit
16:23stronger tonight
16:25yeah I mean
16:26Andy Burnham
16:28has been left
16:29in a situation
16:29I think
16:30where plenty
16:30as we've discussed
16:31already on newscast
16:32who even those
16:33who are supporters
16:34of him
16:34feel that he
16:35sort of overplayed
16:37overplayed
16:38his hand
16:38but again
16:39as we've said
16:40Andy Burnham
16:42and the reason
16:43that story
16:43became as big
16:44as it was
16:44was principally
16:45because of the
16:46situation
16:46that the government
16:47finds itself in
16:48it's symptomatic
16:49of that wider
16:50kind of question
16:53that's going on
16:53and there are others
16:54who don't have the
16:55issue of trying to
16:56find a seat
16:57and get to Westminster
16:58in advance of any
16:59leadership campaign
17:00who are already in
17:01senior positions
17:02and are conducting
17:03themselves rather
17:04more discreetly
17:05but what's interesting
17:06is I did speak to
17:06one person today
17:07who suggested
17:08that strangely
17:08the conference
17:09has come at
17:09quite a good time
17:10given all of the
17:11stuff that was
17:11going on around
17:12Andy Burnham
17:13because they're
17:14all here
17:14they've sort of
17:14thrashed it out
17:15and it's been
17:15talked about
17:16and you know
17:16everybody's had to
17:17be in front of
17:18a camera microphone
17:18or on a conference
17:19stage addressing
17:20this issue
17:20and sort of
17:21either publicly
17:22saying yeah
17:22I'm with Keir Starmer
17:23or as Wes
17:24Streeting said to me
17:25today he's 100%
17:26going to lead us
17:26into the next election
17:27and you know
17:28if we'd been in
17:29Westminster
17:29or if Westminster
17:30hadn't been sitting
17:30all those sort of
17:31questions would have
17:32kind of drip
17:33potentially have
17:34continued
17:34so there is a view
17:35that in a strange way
17:36the whole of like
17:37the Labour movement
17:37being camped in this
17:38place and having
17:39those discussions
17:40kind of publicly
17:41about it all
17:41is a way to maybe
17:43take a bit out
17:43of the sting out
17:44of it for now
17:45for now
17:46but I think Chris
17:46is completely right
17:47that those concerns
17:48about Keir Starmer's
17:49longer term position
17:50are really vocalised
17:51around
17:52Now this speech
17:52was quite policy light
17:54to use a terrible
17:55jargon term
17:56there was kind of
17:56only really two
17:57kind of classic
17:58announcements
17:59wasn't there
17:59one was
18:00abandoning the
18:01Tony Blair era target
18:03of 50% of young
18:04people going to
18:04university
18:05but there's now
18:05a slightly more
18:06complicated target
18:07which is two-thirds
18:08of young people
18:08either going to
18:09university
18:09or doing the kind
18:10of gold standard
18:11level of apprenticeship
18:12and then the other
18:13one was about
18:14the launch of a new
18:15NHS trust
18:16which is going to
18:16be entirely digital
18:17which as Keir Starmer
18:19explained means
18:20you will be able
18:20to get access
18:21to some of the
18:21best specialists
18:22eventually
18:23from well your
18:24living room
18:24or wherever you
18:25happen to be
18:26on your phone
18:26speaking to them
18:27from
18:27Yeah
18:27both of these
18:28things in England
18:29the clear
18:31implication around
18:32the education
18:33idea
18:34is that
18:35some people
18:37were perhaps
18:37encouraged to go
18:38to university
18:39where a better
18:39path for them
18:40would have been
18:40an apprenticeship
18:41but the core
18:41message he's got
18:42is that he wants
18:43and this phrase
18:44has been used
18:44in different contexts
18:45but a parity
18:46of esteem
18:46between apprenticeships
18:47and universities
18:49on the NHS
18:50stuff
18:51this is about
18:54this kind of
18:54gateway on your
18:55phone
18:55so you can talk
18:56to a specialist
18:56if it's suitable
18:57to do it
18:58remotely
18:59rather than
18:59in person
18:59using existing
19:01staff
19:02so now they
19:03think they can
19:03do it more
19:04efficiently
19:04because they
19:05are not having
19:05to move
19:06from room
19:06to room
19:06and the
19:07patients
19:07aren't having
19:07to get on
19:07a bus
19:08for ages
19:08to go
19:08to the
19:09hospital
19:09etc
19:09etc
19:10but
19:12and they
19:13think
19:13that that
19:14would be
19:14a better
19:14service
19:15they reckon
19:15they can
19:15do it
19:16by 2027
19:16which is
19:17quite rapid
19:18for some
19:18specialists
19:19it's not
19:20everything
19:20and also
19:21there's a
19:21little line
19:22on the
19:22NHS England
19:23website
19:23where there's
19:24a bit more
19:24detail about
19:24this
19:25where it's
19:25obviously
19:25aimed at
19:26people who
19:27work in
19:27the NHS
19:27saying
19:28don't worry
19:29we will
19:29negotiate
19:30this with
19:30your unions
19:31and your
19:32professional
19:32bodies
19:32before we
19:33actually
19:33introduce
19:33it
19:34so
19:34it's
19:34maybe
19:35easier
19:35said
19:35than
19:35done
19:36also
19:37I mean
19:39the world
19:39outside this
19:40conference hall
19:40continues to
19:41turn
19:41and there
19:41was huge
19:42news
19:42the night
19:43before
19:43when Donald
19:44Trump
19:44and the
19:45Israeli
19:45Prime
19:45Minister
19:45unveiled
19:46the
19:46latest
19:47American
19:47plan
19:48for
19:48Gaza
19:48which
19:49has got
19:50either
19:5020 points
19:51or 21
19:51points
19:52and I'm
19:52always
19:53I'm
19:53skeptical
19:54of any
19:54plan
19:55more than
19:55six
19:55points
19:55it's
19:56quite
19:56hard
19:57to
19:57remember
19:57more
19:58than
19:58six
19:58things
19:58but
19:59this
19:59is
19:59the
19:59idea
19:59that
20:00Hamas
20:01would
20:02release
20:02all the
20:02existing
20:03hostages
20:03within a
20:0472-hour
20:05window
20:05Israel
20:06would then
20:06release
20:06more
20:07Palestinian
20:08prisoners
20:08then the
20:09IDF
20:09would
20:10gradually
20:10demobilize
20:11from various
20:12bits
20:12of Gaza
20:13then you'd
20:13have some
20:14international
20:14military force
20:16providing
20:16stability
20:17you'd
20:18then work
20:18on
20:18a
20:19Palestinian
20:19led
20:20administration
20:20but in
20:21the meantime
20:22there would
20:22be oversight
20:23of that
20:24by some
20:24governing body
20:25which would
20:26include
20:26Donald Trump
20:27and Tony
20:28Blair
20:28and this is how
20:29the Prime Minister
20:30reacted to that
20:30in his speech today
20:31and conference
20:32I welcome
20:33the new
20:33US
20:34initiative
20:34to bring
20:35peace
20:35to the
20:36Middle East
20:36I strongly
20:38support efforts
20:38to end
20:39the fighting
20:39release
20:40every hostage
20:41and urgently
20:42scale up
20:43aid
20:43into Gaza
20:44all sides
20:46must now
20:46come together
20:47to bring
20:48this initiative
20:48into reality
20:50because we
20:51must restart
20:52the hope
20:52of a two
20:53state solution
20:54a safe
20:55and secure
20:56Israel
20:57alongside the
20:58long promised
20:59Palestinian state
21:00a state
21:01that this
21:01country
21:02now
21:02recognises
21:03and then
21:04a little bit
21:05after that
21:05Alex
21:06you were talking
21:06to Yvette
21:06Cooper
21:06the still
21:07very new
21:07foreign secretary
21:08what was her
21:09take on
21:09what feels
21:10like quite
21:11a big
21:11step forward
21:12but then
21:12you realise
21:12it actually
21:13isn't a step
21:13anywhere yet
21:14because Hamas
21:15haven't agreed
21:15to any of it
21:15no exactly
21:16and I think
21:17there was
21:17a recognition
21:17from Yvette
21:18Cooper
21:18well she said
21:19this is
21:20really complicated
21:21but she also
21:22did say
21:22that from
21:23her perspective
21:23she said
21:24we need
21:24Hamas
21:25to accept
21:25this now
21:25to get
21:26the ceasefire
21:26to get
21:26the hostages
21:27released
21:27and of course
21:28to get
21:29the aid
21:29into Gaza
21:29was her
21:30argument
21:30she described
21:31it as an
21:31incredibly
21:31important
21:32moment
21:32and I think
21:33that is
21:33the sense
21:33that yes
21:34it is
21:34because
21:35potentially
21:36it is
21:36there's
21:37clearly
21:37quite a long
21:37way to go
21:38and a lot
21:39will depend
21:39on what
21:39Hamas
21:40says here
21:40and then
21:40potentially
21:41the response
21:42of the Israelis
21:42to whatever
21:43Hamas says
21:44in response
21:44to this plan
21:45from Donald
21:45Trump
21:46but I think
21:47while Donald
21:47Trump
21:47is clearly
21:48talking this
21:48up quite a
21:49lot
21:49with a bit
21:50of a sense
21:50of optimism
21:52I think
21:53there is
21:53that kind
21:54of natural
21:54caution
21:55because of course
21:55it is
21:57steps to go
21:58to before
21:59the situation
22:00on the ground
22:00in Gaza
22:01starts to
22:01change
22:02and in terms
22:02of other
22:03things happening
22:03there seems
22:04to be some
22:05leaks tonight
22:05of a possible
22:06resolution
22:08to the
22:09two child
22:09benefit cap
22:10Bloomberg
22:11and the
22:12Guardian
22:12reporting
22:13that actually
22:13in the budget
22:14Rachel Reeves
22:14is going to
22:15lift the cap
22:16but not
22:16entirely
22:17where do you
22:19think we are
22:19with that
22:19officially
22:20we're nowhere
22:20officially
22:21we're nowhere
22:21and again
22:22I've put this
22:22in many
22:23ministers
22:23on the airwaves
22:24and they all
22:25give the answer
22:25that you would
22:26absolutely expect
22:26them to give
22:27which is
22:27basically
22:28wait and see
22:28until the budget
22:29you know
22:29there's this
22:29child poverty
22:30task force
22:30which is
22:31looking at
22:31this
22:31and a load
22:32of other
22:32stuff
22:32wait for
22:33the OBR
22:34the Office
22:34of Budget
22:34Responsibility
22:35Forecast
22:35which is
22:36going to
22:36dictate much
22:36of what
22:37Rachel Reeves
22:37first one
22:38comes on
22:38Friday
22:39basically what
22:41she can and
22:41can't afford
22:41to do
22:42but having
22:43said all that
22:44everybody that
22:45you speak to
22:46also gives
22:46these very
22:47clear signals
22:48and indications
22:48that they
22:49think that
22:49this cap
22:50does need
22:51to be lifted
22:51in some
22:51capacity
22:52but it will
22:53be interesting
22:53as to whether
22:54they sort of
22:55just fully lift
22:55this cap
22:56or do
22:56something
22:56slightly more
22:57complex
22:58and of course
22:59with the mood
23:00in the party
23:00and after the
23:01rows that there
23:02were over
23:03winter fuel
23:03over welfare
23:04more broadly
23:05I think the
23:06government needs
23:06to tread
23:07really carefully
23:08if they don't
23:09do anything
23:09other than
23:10something which
23:10is a really
23:11quite bold move
23:12in this area
23:12given all the
23:13signals we've
23:13heard which
23:14kind of leaning
23:15very very firmly
23:16in the direction
23:16that there's going
23:17to be movement
23:17on this
23:17the wind
23:18is blowing
23:18definitely
23:19in one
23:19direction
23:19you had
23:20people like
23:20John Mcdonald
23:21the former
23:21shadow chancellor
23:21being readmitted
23:22to the
23:23parliamentary
23:23Labour Party
23:24you'd had
23:24the whip
23:24removed
23:25to use
23:25the Westminster
23:25language
23:26around all
23:26of this
23:27clearly it's
23:29on its way
23:29they'd cause
23:31themselves
23:31no end
23:32of grief
23:32given how
23:33far up the hill
23:33they've marched
23:34with this
23:34if they then
23:34didn't do it
23:35they're now
23:36working out
23:37how they do it
23:38and does it
23:38taper
23:39how far
23:40does it
23:40extend
23:40and then there's
23:42a trade off
23:42with how much
23:43money it then
23:43costs you
23:44so that's
23:45where we are
23:46with it
23:47can I end
23:48on a little
23:48philosophical note
23:49and it's back
23:49to your point
23:50Chris
23:50you made
23:51about Nigel Farage
23:52doing his
23:52response to
23:53Starmer's speech
23:54minutes afterwards
23:55and he did it
23:56from a sort of
23:56fake Downing Street
23:57sort of set up
23:58from his own office
23:59with a podium
24:00and flags
24:01and you were saying
24:01how that's
24:02not the traditional
24:03way of doing things
24:04I just think
24:05we're in a world
24:05now where
24:06these events
24:06these conferences
24:07haven't actually
24:08changed
24:09since the first one
24:10I came to
24:10about 18 years ago
24:11and I just wonder
24:12when is the future
24:13going to arrive
24:14at all
24:14it's a privilege
24:15to be here
24:16and be able
24:17to consume
24:17politics 24-7
24:18with the cabinet
24:19standing there
24:20and all the
24:21backbenchers there
24:21but I do just wonder
24:23when this is going
24:23to get into
24:24the modern era
24:25I'm certainly
24:26not seeking
24:26to defend
24:27why is it
24:28not like it
24:28used to be
24:29obviously Nigel Farage
24:30can choose
24:30to do
24:31what he wants
24:32and he's spent
24:33a political
24:34lifetime
24:34breaking conventions
24:36I just mention it
24:37because it is
24:38unconventional
24:38but I just wonder
24:39when this
24:40sort of set up
24:41is going to move
24:42well I suppose
24:43what I'd say
24:43and there's two
24:44elements
24:44to an event
24:46like this
24:47there's obviously
24:48the outward stuff
24:49which is hugely
24:50important for a party
24:51in terms of its
24:51shop window
24:51to the country
24:52but don't
24:53underestimate
24:54what's going on
24:56around here
24:56this exhibition hall
24:58where all of the
24:59kind of lobbyists
24:59from different
25:00outfits
25:00unions
25:01commercial enterprises
25:03etc
25:03pressing the flash
25:04and then in the
25:05bars and the
25:06restaurants
25:0624 hours a day
25:08during these
25:08conferences pretty much
25:09people meeting
25:12face to face
25:12so I think in that
25:13sense
25:14I mean maybe I'm
25:15just a sad old
25:15I've been coming
25:16to them for too
25:17long
25:17but I would have
25:18thought whatever
25:18digital revolution
25:20political you know
25:21political change
25:22comes
25:22a party getting
25:24together
25:24people are very
25:25you know for a lot
25:25of activists
25:26they're here
25:27on holiday
25:28taking time off
25:29work
25:30and they're
25:30meeting
25:31this is their
25:31Glaston break
25:32yeah yeah
25:32political
25:32you know they're
25:33meeting their
25:34friends their
25:35sometimes their
25:37heroes
25:37and I don't say
25:38that in any sort
25:39of dismissive
25:40sense
25:40it's a big part
25:41of their identity
25:42and who they are
25:43and physically
25:44meeting to do
25:44that is a key
25:46is a key part
25:47of it
25:47and it is
25:48interesting so I
25:49when I first got
25:49here yesterday
25:50bumped into a
25:51Blairite veteran
25:52on the way down
25:53from the train
25:53station
25:54and they were
25:55being quite
25:56pro Andy Burnham
25:57and they're like
25:57well do you see
25:59any members of
25:59the cabinet who
26:00gets people
26:01asking them for
26:01selfies
26:02and I was like
26:02yeah I can see
26:03where you're coming
26:03from Andy Burnham
26:04like people do
26:04come up to him
26:05and ask for
26:05selfies
26:05then when Darren
26:06Jones finished
26:07doing his newscast
26:08interview here
26:08in this spot
26:09yesterday
26:09loads of people
26:10came up and
26:11asked him for
26:11selfies
26:11I was like
26:12well okay
26:12that's that
26:13argument
26:13to be fair
26:14Wes Streeting
26:15got loads of
26:16selfie requests
26:17when we were
26:17just about to
26:17go live
26:17on the channel
26:18Yvette Cooper
26:18I think somebody
26:19stopped and
26:19tried to get
26:20it does happen
26:20because
26:21within the
26:23Labour Party
26:24these are the
26:24cabinet
26:25the kind of
26:25big names
26:25the people
26:26they've watched
26:26and listened to
26:27and it's their
26:27chance to interact
26:27with them
26:28I still think
26:28I think you're
26:29right
26:30they do sometimes
26:30feel a bit
26:31outdated
26:31and that kind
26:32of big speech
26:32moment in the
26:33hall
26:33I really do
26:34question how
26:34much that
26:34connects beyond
26:35the walls of
26:36this kind of
26:36strange place
26:37but I would
26:38counter that by
26:39saying I still
26:40think it's a
26:40really important
26:41thing for the
26:41parties
26:42particularly when
26:42a party is
26:43wobbly or
26:44leaders in a
26:45bit of peril
26:46they are the
26:46moment that I
26:47think can make
26:48a difference to
26:48how the party
26:49feels about the
26:50people that are
26:51running it and
26:51that's why I
26:52think they will
26:52be important for
26:53some time
26:53but I think to
26:54pick up on that
26:55where they can
26:56feel odd for
26:57anyone who gives
26:57it more than a
26:58moment's thoughts
26:58and of course
26:59most people don't
27:00this only dawned
27:01on me when I
27:02missed a couple
27:02of years of
27:03conference season
27:03a few years back
27:04on shared parental
27:05leave that when
27:06you're just an
27:06ordinary consumer
27:07of news as I
27:07almost was then
27:08you might catch
27:10the Prime Minister's
27:11speech or sense
27:11that he's given
27:12one but then
27:12Prime Ministers
27:13give speeches
27:13all the time
27:14and so it has
27:16a bigger feel if
27:18you're in the
27:18bubble of it
27:19than it does
27:20out there
27:21but then maybe
27:23that's okay
27:24because it is
27:26principally certainly
27:28for those who
27:29are here for the
27:30experience of
27:31being here and
27:31the conversations
27:32that they get to
27:32have and then
27:33the party tries
27:33to make that
27:34wider argument
27:36to the country
27:37and also people
27:37come up to you
27:38and give you
27:38free sticks of
27:39rock
27:39absolutely
27:40that you then
27:41start cheering
27:41before recording
27:42we both have
27:42one I haven't
27:43I mean
27:43you can nibble
27:44on his
27:44stick of rock
27:45right Chris
27:46thank you very
27:47much
27:47Alex thanks
27:48to you
27:48pleasure as ever
27:49and that's it
27:50from me from
27:50the Labour Party
27:51conference in
27:51Liverpool because
27:52I'm going to be
27:52back in the
27:53newscast studio
27:53these two are
27:54still going to be
27:54here for another
27:55day
27:56bye
28:00bye
28:02bye
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