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00:00RoboDat was just a constant for three years.
00:24These were DATs being created without evidence and it was really clear the trauma that this
00:29was causing at a mass scale.
00:32It was actually Centrelink that became Australia's largest criminal organisation.
00:38There are a couple of customers that I wonder, were they still alive? Did they make it?
00:45Was I the one that pushed them over the edge?
00:48None of this pain had to happen. I could still have my son with me.
00:52Now I do not accept people have died over RoboDat.
00:56To take on the government is a really scary thing.
00:59There's just so much to lose for the government here.
01:03It reeks of injustice.
01:05The best thing I can do is just tell the truth about what happened.
01:09I remember and I will not forget.
01:13I did.
01:14We have to have accountability and we have to have justice.
01:20Centrelink is a sign of a good society where we are wanting to look after each other and it should be a support that people can call on.
01:42So finding out about my RoboDat was a complete surprise.
01:47It definitely makes you feel like you've done something wrong, which was the really demeaning part.
01:54So in 2012 I was working in a restaurant full time and I decided to go back to study.
02:04So I applied for Centrelink. It was a vital support.
02:13In 2018, seven years later, I was working full time again and I had lodged a tax return for that year.
02:24And I had been waiting and waiting and waiting until I realised this is taking way too long.
02:33I contacted my accountant.
02:36He informed me that my tax return had been garnished by the government.
02:45My tax return was $1,709.87.
02:52The government had taken the whole amount.
02:56I had no idea that the government could access my money from the ATO.
03:02It was a bit of a shock.
03:06I also didn't know that I had a debt.
03:09I had no information. I had no letters. I didn't have anything.
03:14They'd taken everything up until the last cent.
03:18I also realised that the debt was probably even more than that.
03:22And I panicked.
03:30Robo-debt was just a constant for three years.
03:33The automated processes allowed the government to initiate debts at a scale that was incomprehensible to us previously.
03:40And it was really clear the trauma that this was causing at a mass scale.
03:44The whole concept of Robo-debt was to override what people told Centrelink they earned with this averaged information.
03:53Income averaging doesn't work because it uses Australian tax office information around what a person earned over a year to determine what that person earned in each individual fortnight.
04:05It's like if someone said to you, I drove seven hours last week and you just assumed that they drove one hour every day.
04:14It is as ludicrous as that.
04:17We had concluded that we thought it was unlawful.
04:20We really needed a test case proving that the whole system was unlawful.
04:27If a test case went ahead and the Federal Court found that income averaging was unlawful, then it would be game over.
04:34Robo-debt would have to end.
04:36There were some particular challenges with finding a test case.
04:40The person had to have had absolutely no engagement with Centrelink at the time we filed.
04:46If the person had requested a review, if the person had provided their pay slips, then there was a real fear that Centrelink would then resolve their debt lawfully before we got to challenge it.
05:00That's where Deanna Amato came along.
05:05I talked to my partner about it.
05:08His first piece of advice was to contact Victoria Legal Aid.
05:14I was first connected with Charlie.
05:18Deanna's case showed the key things that were unfair and unlawful about Robo-debt.
05:22She never got the letters.
05:24She never knew anything about this debt.
05:26And then they took her tax return.
05:29The government did this by using a garnishee power.
05:32Garnishee powers allow them to take your tax return or even write to your bank and take money out of your bank account without your permission.
05:42These are extraordinary powers.
05:45They're the kinds of powers that I think most people would think government should only be able to use in really serious cases of fraud.
05:54So it seemed to be a real abuse of a particular mechanism that was available to Centrelink.
06:02The garnishee power that was used at law can only be used where a debt has been raised and the person has failed to enter into a reasonable payment plan.
06:13There's no way to enter a reasonable payment plan around a debt you don't even know about.
06:20I didn't receive any notifications or letters.
06:27I'm a renter so I'd moved a few times since I studied.
06:32Yet all my details had been up to date with the ATO.
06:36Charlie said I had pretty much two options which were go to Centrelink and prove that I didn't owe that money.
06:44And the other avenue was the potential test case.
06:49The case felt high stakes. I'd never been involved in a case that was so consequential.
06:57Miles and Charlie chatted to me about the potential risks about being in the spotlight.
07:04That I was going to be scrutinised personally.
07:07Potentially be attacked by a lawyer.
07:10I don't know. I just had no idea what to expect.
07:13So I really needed to make sure I was ready and confident to do it.
07:19Because to take on the government is, yeah, a really scary thing.
07:34It actually caused me to have a breakdown. I walked out of my job.
07:40I overdosed at one point because I was just that low.
07:47I developed major depressions and I've got bipolar now.
07:54I ended up having to take, I think it was about three months off work,
07:57to just like work on my mental health and things like that.
08:01At Centrelink the phones just got busier and busier and busier.
08:13Customers got really upset.
08:16And it was really hard emotionally to be trying to deal with someone
08:22who is suicidal or threatening self-harm.
08:26We weren't trained social workers.
08:31And I know there was lots of us staff that just battled every day
08:38to deal with the complexity of those calls.
08:43And just not knowing what the next call was going to be.
08:47It was late in a Friday afternoon.
08:53Another service officer had taken a call.
08:57That customer had sort of indicated that they might have some self-harm.
09:04So they got a social worker for the customer.
09:08The staff member was told that they could end the call now.
09:13When they came back into the office on the Monday,
09:18they were told that the customer had suicided over the weekend.
09:24All of us were very upset about it.
09:29The person that had taken the call, they just stopped coming to work.
09:38You know, it just got less and less and less.
09:41In the end, we were just told one day that person is not coming back.
09:45We weren't really trained to deal with the level of trauma
09:53that the customers were coming through with.
09:55I feel very strongly that staff's mental health was not protected.
10:02I would like to think that no one self-harmed after speaking to me.
10:10There are a couple of customers that I wonder, you know, what happened?
10:19Were they still alive? Did they make it?
10:22Was I the one that pushed them over the edge?
10:27I turned a little bit to drinking.
10:33I have a diagnosis of complex post-traumatic stress disorder.
10:38I still have some flashbacks of things that I wish I'd done better.
10:47You know, there's a lot of guilt with that.
10:49And it was hard.
10:58I considered leaving my job from about the second week of working for Minister Tudge.
11:05Every day I had to convince myself to keep going.
11:11But in the end, I thought, I need to get out of this.
11:14I was just completely controlled by this person.
11:18I would never have said no to him on anything.
11:21I made the decision to leave after a very distressing and upsetting trip.
11:30On the plane, he was yelling at me about how incompetent I am in front of strangers on a plane.
11:36I walked into the office and I said, look, you can't treat me the way you treated me on that trip.
11:50And he looked up from the desk and he just looked at me and he said, stop being such a precious petal, Rochelle.
11:57And I just thought, it was that moment I went, I need to leave you.
12:01I need to get out of here.
12:03The pressure of that environment in Canberra meant that people acted in ways that I don't think they would get away with in any other workplace.
12:15We were employed to give fearless and frank advice.
12:18And I didn't really see a lot of that actually happening.
12:28How good is Australia?
12:32Scott Morrison announced his new ministerial team today.
12:35Alan Tudge is elevated as population and cities minister.
12:41Now, interestingly, Stuart Robert, who's had a few controversial moments,
12:45the Gold Coast MP has made a return to Cabinet.
12:49I, Stuart, Roland Robert, do swear that I will well and truly serve the people of Australia.
12:55There's an 80% staff turnover every year in politics.
12:59That's 80% of people leave.
13:02I feel like it's an environment in which people who are more psychopathic kind of thrive.
13:09And I think the more what you would call grounded, normal people go, yeah, this isn't for me.
13:16But there's a percentage of people who are fully indoctrinated and drinking the Kool-Aid.
13:29What was frustrating about Robodebt?
13:32We'd been reporting it a long, long time.
13:35We knew the harm that had been caused, the way the government had defended the scheme.
13:38But the government basically said, we're going to double down on this.
13:44Would you concede that there are problems with the Robodebt system?
13:48It was one of the reasons why we asked people to contact us,
13:51to ensure that our highly targeted welfare system has the right people getting the right money.
13:56That's why the Prime Minister's always made the point that the best form of welfare is a job.
13:59Um, hello. I'm in a pretty desperate situation here, and my claim has been rejected after I've waited a month.
14:21I've jumped through all the hoops, and I'm just wondering why. I haven't even got an explanation. It's bullshit.
14:26I'm going down the tubes here, and, like, I need this money. I'm defaulting on my loan repayments.
14:38I've got 4k in fines.
14:40Yeah, and we can't afford rent, and then, like, I'm thinking about stealing food because we've got no food.
14:44Like...
14:45Yeah, no, fair enough.
14:46I'm not going to go to jail, because, yeah, there will be a wiring out for my arrest because I can't pay my phone.
14:52If you can supply the requested documents.
14:54Alright. It says it's uploaded successful.
14:57Okay. If that's been done, Jared, hopefully you should hear something early next week.
15:02That's the best I can do for you, okay? And you have a lovely day.
15:05Yeah, you too. Thank you.
15:06Thank you. Bye.
15:07Bye.
15:14So many people say, how could they not know? How could it go on so long?
15:35The reason for that is ultimately a very broken institutional culture in the Australian public service.
15:45We needed more clean tailors.
15:48Well, I spoke up because it was actually Centrelink that became Australia's largest criminal organisation.
16:01Had it not been for robo-debt, I would have still been working there. I loved it.
16:08I decided that I would retire.
16:11I was sent a letter when I retired.
16:16Basically said, you signed a confidentiality agreement.
16:23You are bound by that even though you're a former public servant.
16:27And under the Crimes Act, if you speak about anything, there's a penalty of two years imprisonment.
16:31There was nothing about, thank you for your 32 years of service.
16:37It was just shut up or else.
16:40And you think, I can't afford to lose my pension. I don't want to lose everything.
16:43I had the same feelings that our customers felt when they had these humongous debts.
16:48Am I going to lose my house? Am I going to lose my income?
16:51It made me become very isolated.
16:54Anything to do with robo-debt just seems to bring on feelings of just sadness.
17:01I think I was really lucky that I had a lot of support when I found out about my dad.
17:19I know that so many other people were not that fortunate.
17:25It's awful. It breaks my heart that other people would have been really, really suffering.
17:31I grew up in a working class Italian family.
17:35We were all brought up with a strong sense of morals and fairness and to stand up for what you believe in.
17:45So, as much as I was scared, I just had something in my gut that was saying that it was the right thing to do.
17:53It seemed like this could be the case that was going to change things.
18:01Things were very strange after we filed.
18:03I got a notification that Centrelink were doing their own review of my debt.
18:12And they decided to zero the debt.
18:18The government used their powers to get her pay slips and they found exactly what we had already found.
18:24They then argued that because there was no longer a debt, there's no case to hear here.
18:29It did feel like a huge setback.
18:31I think it was a clear strategy that was being used to prevent the question of lawfulness being heard by a federal court.
18:40But there was no way we were giving up.
18:49So, what we know in Meow is that in September 2019, behind closed doors, the Solicitor General was advising the government that it will likely lose a federal court test case.
18:59He also tells them that income averaging is not lawful and is not a basis upon which a debt can be raised and pursued.
19:07So, despite knowing it's illegal, Mr Stewart-Robert tarries on defending the scheme.
19:20In his first address here at the club, please welcome us to your club.
19:32Paul Cart from Guardian Australia, thanks very much for your speech.
19:35Could I please ask with your government services hat on about the Robodebt program.
19:40If you're so confident that the debts are legal, why has Centrelink never defended them in court?
19:47I don't think I've ever been asked by an NDIS participant about income compliance.
19:53So, today's probably not the day to talk about income compliance and where it sits.
19:58Happy to look at it another time.
20:00Why isn't it? Sorry.
20:02We're the press club and we like to talk about all sorts of issues and everyone who gets an invite here understands that they might be asked about their speech and they might not.
20:09Okay, then I'll answer if you like.
20:11Almost a million Australians owe $5 billion in debts.
20:13So, using averaging as the basis to say to a citizen, there may be a debt, can you please engage with us is entirely appropriate.
20:28To kind of flippantly disregard advice that tells you it's illegal is to me just an extraordinary indictment on that minister and on the government.
20:39They've got so much to lose. There's just so much to lose politically for the government here.
20:47They've dismissed the criticism, they've deflected, but also it's, you know, a lot of money, right?
20:55So, to admit that the system was unlawful, to scrap it means probably refunding debts.
21:04That's a huge amount of money and this government is obsessed with savings.
21:10I think it becomes unavoidable for the government.
21:13They realise that these cases are probably just going to keep coming.
21:16There's an end date on this scheme. It has to come undone from that point.
21:20Because the government wasn't accepting that Deanna's debt was unlawful, they were just accepting they got it wrong.
21:35We needed to show it wasn't around an incorrect calculation, it was around a mechanism for calculating and that that was averaging.
21:45The question of the lawfulness of raising the debt still being played meant that Deanna's case was allowed to go ahead.
21:50So, it's November 2019. It's about 8pm, two weeks before Deanna's hearing.
22:02We get an email from the Commonwealth Government.
22:08The government is willing to concede that raising a debt using averaging is unlawful.
22:15It's a big moment. It's huge.
22:22It was an overwhelming moment. It was emotional.
22:26I felt this sense of sheer relief.
22:29Sheer relief for everyone who had been fighting against Robodet for so long and for everyone who now wasn't going to get a Robodet.
22:36I was just absolutely shocked. After three years, they didn't even have a fight in them about it, ultimately.
22:47That their only strategy had seemed to be to make it go away.
22:52Finding out that Legal Aid had won was a huge weight off my shoulders.
22:58Deanna is an absolute hero of this story.
23:02She could have just got on with her life.
23:04She could have just provided her payslips and shown Centrelink that she was right all along.
23:08But she didn't.
23:10And she put herself on the line publicly to challenge this.
23:14She's an absolute hero.
23:16This week, the Morrison Government scrapped a key aspect of its controversial Robodet scheme.
23:22The Commonwealth now admits its automated welfare debt recovery system was illegal.
23:28The earthquake decision in the Federal Court yesterday sealing the end of Robodet.
23:34I knew it.
23:36You know, I knew it. I knew there was something dodgy going on. I knew it.
23:41What an indictment that the only thing that stopped it was that this averaging was illegal.
23:46All this other stuff about it being illogical, unjust, cruel, unfair, all those things didn't mean anything.
23:57When I heard Robodet was declared unlawful, it was probably a, yeah, no shit moment.
24:03It was vindication, but it wasn't jubilation.
24:06What an indictment that was invented, the only thing that was proven.
24:08I know it wasn't closed, but it was quite still.
24:09At work, it just got turned off.
24:36There was no, oh we need to have a meeting, it's been found unlawful, and they're going
24:42to say they're sorry that they should have listened to us.
24:46There was nothing like that, it was just business as usual, although now we're not raising these
24:52debts anymore.
24:53I was elated.
24:57I just felt relieved.
25:06Facing a class action, the government announced it's repaying $721 million it raked in through
25:12robo-debts.
25:13More than 400,000 people will now be refunded.
25:16The government finally admitting the process was flawed.
25:21Stuart Robert takes the Friday afternoon ministerial walk of shame.
25:25We're all good?
25:26Okay.
25:27Well, good afternoon.
25:30The government has always taken its responsibility for income compliance and the welfare system
25:35sensibly and appropriately and seriously.
25:38And we'll be refunding $721 million.
25:41We're doing that because the best advice we have is that raising a debt wholly or partly
25:50on the basis of ATO average income is not sufficient under law.
25:55Thanks very much.
25:56I got a letter on the Centrelink app.
26:03That letter did say there was no debt.
26:06There was never a debt.
26:08There was real relief.
26:10But there was also this really sense of how dare they?
26:13How dare they put me through that?
26:15For years.
26:17All of a sudden the debt was gone.
26:21I can't see that the debt has ever even been there.
26:24And that's not okay.
26:26I wanted to see the people who orchestrated this scheme to be accountable.
26:31After the class action, Rhys' debt was wiped.
26:37Oh, we can just erase him.
26:39That's it.
26:40Don't need to worry about anything now.
26:42Erase his life.
26:44And that's how it felt.
26:47I still didn't gain the truth.
26:53The truth that I needed.
26:59None of this pain had to happen.
27:01I could still have my son with me.
27:04This pain did not have to happen.
27:12The initial class action failed to deliver accountability
27:16because compensation for the hurt caused was not on the table.
27:24No one investigates anything.
27:27It's very clear the Morrison government just wants to move on.
27:31The reason why they settled is they didn't want to get into the box and admit who knew what when.
27:37Why did RoboDebt happen?
27:38Why was this debt illegally raised against hundreds of thousands of Aussies?
27:42Until we get that answer, the matter cannot rest.
27:45Labor frontbencher Bill Shorten has pledged a royal commission into the failed RoboDebt scheme will begin by the end of the year if the opposition wins government.
27:55A royal commission is the last fallback institution we have to find the truth.
28:05I had talked myself into believing that once I left Parliament, all of the problems that I was having, all of the anxiety would all go away.
28:24I started seeing a psychiatrist and went on medication and I started to realise the extent of what had happened to me.
28:32And I started to realise the extent of the dysfunction in Parliament.
28:37Everything that happened to me almost every day was not okay.
28:43I had normalised that environment.
28:45I just fell apart.
28:48In a way, I just felt like I'd lost everything and I had nothing to lose by speaking out, so I did.
29:03Both married with children, Rochelle Miller now admits she and Minister Tudge were having an affair.
29:16Okay, we ready?
29:18Okay.
29:19This relationship was defined by significant power imbalance.
29:22I was completely under his control.
29:25People advised me that to be a good staffer, you must take any type of abuse and not complain.
29:30What sort of culture is that?
29:36I'm not taking questions.
29:46My mental health has been really in a bad place.
29:51I had a period of time where I wasn't working and we were getting bills and things that we couldn't pay.
29:57And I started to understand how it would feel for somebody with a mental health condition to get a debt notice.
30:04That's scary and I've never experienced anything like it before and I think that that now gives me much more empathy for people who are going through a similar thing.
30:19I think that that's all I can say.
30:26The Morrison government is hoping everyone will just forget about rubber debt.
30:32But roughly six months after it ends, the Senate committee holds its own probe into the scheme.
30:37Catherine Campbell, Secretary of Department of Social Services.
30:42Catherine Campbell comes to the Senate in 2020 to give evidence.
30:48Now this is the committee that doesn't have the same sort of clout as a Royal Commission, but it does aim to hold the government and the public service to account.
30:55Are you able to confirm if a decision has been made about the future of robo-debt?
31:02I think what you mean by robo-debt is compliance per se. Is that what you mean by robo-debt?
31:08No, I think everybody pretty well understands what robo-debt is.
31:11So, I'm sorry, Chair, I don't know what robo-debt means.
31:14Oh, that is an extraordinary admission at this point.
31:17So, because in the context of the question, can I just finish?
31:20No, no.
31:21People have died over robo-debt and you don't even acknowledge the word.
31:24Well, I do not accept people have died over robo-debt.
31:27I'm sure the families of those who died and committed suicide will be very, very unhappy with your answer to that.
31:32Suicide is a very difficult subject.
31:37We know mental health issues are very difficult.
31:39We do not accept that.
31:41For her to say something like that shows lack of empathy for people.
31:47Do you know my son better than I do?
31:49No, you don't.
31:50I knew in my heart that this was a reason that pushed Reece over the edge.
32:00It was a big enough reason to do that.
32:03And he felt like he didn't have anywhere to go.
32:07For her to sit there and go, well, no, it's not causing suicides.
32:12Don't sit there and say that.
32:14Because that's very hurtful.
32:16Our vote, our vote, our vote, our vote, our vote, our vote, our vote.
32:23Tonight, the Australian people have voted for change.
32:27This was a moment Labor had long promised a Royal Commission into a now notorious debt recovery scheme.
32:40The Royal Commission will examine the establishment of the scheme, who was responsible for it and why it was necessary, and measures to prevent this ever happening again.
32:52A Royal Commission is a vehicle to get to the truth, and it's the most powerful type of truth-telling vehicle, I think, that exists.
33:02And you think back to all the Royal Commissions in the past, the Aboriginal deaths in custody, the Disability Royal Commission, the Child Abuse Royal Commission.
33:11These are really watershed moments for really serious issues of public importance.
33:16So to have something like that for robo-debt, it's momentous.
33:20Like, it's a landmark moment.
33:33We know that almost 400,000 Australians fell victim to this cruel system.
33:40I saw that the Royal Commission was happening.
33:43But now, I tell you, I never picked up my phone faster.
33:47I could not wait.
33:49Former Chief Justice of the Supreme Court of Queensland, Catherine Holmes, will lead the Royal Commission.
33:55Ah, finally, we might get some answers.
33:57But the opposition is calling it a witch hunt.
33:59I was absolutely elated.
34:01We're finally going to get the truth and get it out there, get people to hear it and see it.
34:07Thousands of Aussies will be searching for answers when a Royal Commission into the robo-debt scandal gets underway.
34:16The scheme wrongly claimed...
34:18The Royal Commission will question whether the Federal Government was recklessly...
34:22Now the Royal Commission will shine a spotlight on this whole sorry mess,
34:25with the first block of public hearings beginning in Brisbane today.
34:30This inquiry...
34:31It's a really nervous time, I think, leading up to that Royal Commission.
34:34A lot of people are expecting a lot from it.
34:37They're expecting answers, they're expecting closure.
34:41Royal Commissions don't always give people full sense of justice.
34:45They can refer people for prosecution, but there's potential for disappointment.
34:52Commissioner, the next witness is Catherine Campbell.
34:55As Secretary, Ms Campbell sat at the top of the ladder at the Department of Human Services
35:00when he conceived robo-debt.
35:02Did you have any understanding of how the program was being implemented?
35:05I had left that to be the responsibility of others within the department.
35:09You're not claiming though that you're excused from implementing an unlawful system
35:14because you didn't know the law.
35:16It's not an excuse that washes with most people.
35:18You could appreciate that.
35:20So what's the question?
35:22Are you claiming ignorance of the law when you set up the unlawful system?
35:25So, in 2015, I was advised, and we put it in the brief, the DSS thought there would be a requirement for legal and policy change.
35:38At some point in time, that changed.
35:41I don't know.
35:42And having to listen to this, just the way we always did it.
35:45No, no, denying everything.
35:48And then all of a sudden, they brought me in.
35:52Just didn't see it as courageous.
35:54I just saw it as, I can tell them where they're going wrong.
35:58Now, do you see this is an email, and it's headed a message from the Secretary, Catherine Campbell?
36:02Yes.
36:03It says, how we match records with the Australian Taxation Office is not a new process.
36:07There have also been no changes to how we assess income or calculate and recover debt.
36:12We absolutely have changed how we calculate the debt, and even recover debt.
36:17This is an email from yourself to Catherine Campbell.
36:21These are your words.
36:22There has been a very dramatic change within the last 18 months
36:25to the way in which compliance assesses income and calculates and recovers debt.
36:30Was that your belief?
36:31Oh, absolutely.
36:32Were you seeking to explain to the Secretary why that was a dramatic change?
36:36That's right, yes.
36:37It was just the callous indifference.
36:40You were just so sorry for what was being done to our customers.
36:43Um, and it was, you know, it was just starting to come out in the media, all the dreadful consequences.
36:53Thank you very much, Ms Tate.
36:54Thank you, Commissioner.
36:55And I remember the tweet from Jenny Miller to say, congratulations, well done sort of thing.
37:04And I wish my son had been able to speak to you.
37:07He might still be with me.
37:11So, um, yeah, that was a lovely thing to say, but it was just, it was depressing that it has to be said.
37:18Hmm.
37:19They brought Catherine Campbell back again, and they grilled her on my email.
37:28You received an email from an employee of your department, uh, Colleen Taylor.
37:33Yes.
37:34The last sub dot point there says, as a compliance unit, we should not be the ones stealing from our customers.
37:41That was very strong language to be used by a staff member to the secretary and wasn't it?
37:46Yes.
37:47Yes.
37:48And your response was to rebut that suggestion that there had been a change.
37:54Yes.
37:55When, in fact, you knew that was not truthful.
38:00Your question, did I?
38:02You knew it wasn't true.
38:05At that time, if we were able to get the customer to engage, I thought it was true.
38:12I accept it should have been caveated so.
38:16Making sure it was in accordance with the law doesn't seem to have been one of your priorities, does it?
38:21At that time, I had understood that DSS had advised that it was in accordance with legislative requirements.
38:29You know, when you think I wrote to Catherine Campbell and said, as a loyal employee of longstanding, why did I even give them my loyalty?
38:38Well, you're excused, Miss Campbell. If you want to go, go by all means.
38:43Commissioner, I call Miss Sandra Bevan.
38:50I was so nervous, absolutely nervous.
38:53My heart, oh, my God.
38:57I was shaking.
38:59I felt like I'd been found guilty of this thing.
39:02I had to prove my innocence.
39:04It was just such a weight on my shoulders, but I do remember driving home and thinking I could just drive my car into a tree and make it stop.
39:17Miss Bevan, do you, if you need a moment, Miss Bevan?
39:20I think I have to testify.
39:29They'll ask you about everything.
39:33All of it.
39:36I know.
39:38It's what I want.
39:40I want to talk about all of it.
39:41A spin doctor for the Morrison government tells an inquiry how they tried to shut down a public relations crisis sparked by the Robodebt scandal.
39:57The Royal Commission was terrifying in that I didn't want to face certain people.
40:04Do you swear by almighty God that the evidence you will give will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth?
40:09I do.
40:10Some of the family members of the victims of Robodebt who were sitting right in the public gallery were distraught, you know, they were upset.
40:19I felt very helpless.
40:21And I thought the best thing I can do to help you at the moment is just to tell you, tell the truth about what happened.
40:26Would you describe the work of the minister's office together with the department as involving a comprehensive and coordinated defence of the scheme so that it might continue?
40:42Yes.
40:44Did anybody think about the legal aspect of it?
40:46Not that I recall.
40:47Didn't seem to be at the forefront of anybody's mind so far as you were concerned?
40:51No.
40:52Basically because we expect, well, I expect that if a media release on a policy area has been cleared by the department, that's well and truly well past the legaling stage.
41:06Fair enough.
41:08What do you recall of the topic of releasing personal information from persons with whom Centrelink dealt to the media?
41:18All I was concerned about that we were able to do it legally.
41:23Did you notice any impact of the decision to release personal information into the media?
41:30Yes. Well, there were less people speaking out in the media, which was the intention.
41:35And who was responsible for approving that as a strategy?
41:39The minister.
41:41No further questions, Commissioner?
41:42I'm not proud at all of the role that I played.
41:48The relationship that I had with my boss at the time was not one in which I had a lot of control.
41:55I certainly didn't feel like I could speak out more than what I did.
41:59I think if I had my chance again, I would have just quit.
42:02Former government ministers including Scott Morrison, Stuart Robert and Alan Tudge are expected to be called as witnesses.
42:14The witness for today is the Honourable Alan Tudge MP.
42:20Alan Tudge was on the stand.
42:21I was going to finally get the truth for Rhys.
42:36The Coalition may be out of office, but prominent former ministers are back in the public spotlight in the RoboDead Royal Commission.
42:43Alan Tudge was Human Services Minister as RoboDead ramped up and victims started coming forward.
42:53Did you ever see an advice from your department which confirmed in your mind that the scheme was lawful?
43:02I never saw an advice, no, that it was lawful.
43:05Did you ask for one?
43:07No.
43:09And a failure to take that step is of course a failure for which you are responsible as the minister.
43:21I don't know that you can say that.
43:25You're a minister for God's sake.
43:28It makes me very angry that they think that they can sit there and not take any responsibility.
43:37I turn to the question of suicides.
43:40Recall that in February 2017, an article was published in the Saturday paper related to Rhys Corso's suicide.
43:52I do recall, I don't recall the details of this case.
43:56The way in which your media advisor draws this to the attention of you is in, would you agree, particularly insensitive language?
44:08Yes, I would.
44:10Did that insensitivity reflect the culture within your office?
44:16No, I don't accept that that was the culture.
44:19Listening to Alan's testimony, I would say that there was a lot there that wasn't my recollection.
44:28Did you ever actually say to Mr Porter or the Prime Minister, who would have been Mr Turnbull, that consideration should be given to stopping this program?
44:39No.
44:41To watch people that are in authority, it was an absolute eye-opener as to their behaviour. No care, no empathy.
44:51As a Royal Commission investigates who's responsible for robo-debt, former PM Scott Morrison took the stand.
45:01As Minister for Immigration, his credo was,
45:04We're going to stop the boats.
45:07In his time as Minister for Social Security, branding starts appearing.
45:12And we're going to stop those cheats, and we're going to stop those rotters.
45:15That is a deliberate echo of his existing brand.
45:19You swear by almighty God...
45:21Scott Morrison's signature brought robo-debt into existence.
45:24He brought the proposal to Cabinet.
45:27Did you ask at any stage for advice on the legality of this practice?
45:33No, I did not.
45:35I had great confidence in my officials, and I had every reason to have that confidence, I believed.
45:40Your belief was proved wrong with history?
45:43Unfortunately, yes.
45:45The suggestion to me that even internal department legal advice was not conveyed to ministers was unthinkable.
45:54And yet it happened?
45:56Yes.
45:57It's a dodging, weaving, ducking, trying to justify his behaviour.
46:04Stuart Robert was the Minister for Government Services when the Coalition's robo-debt scheme was unravelling.
46:11I'm just going to start by asking you, Mr Robert, you've had serious doubts about the lawfulness of this program.
46:18Yes.
46:20Couldn't possibly work.
46:22Couldn't possibly work lawfully, do you mean?
46:24Correct. What I would call sufficiently.
46:26But just because I have a reservation, respectfully, does not mean I'm going to say I think the Government program is wrong.
46:31As part of Cabinet solidarity, Government ministers are expected to show confidence in the agenda of the Government.
46:36That's what we do.
46:38Misrepresent things to the Australian public.
46:41I wouldn't respectfully put it that way.
46:44Could I ask you, Mr Robert, to turn to your tab 61 in Volume 2?
46:48National Press Club speech?
46:50Yes. There is a question from Mr Karp of The Guardian.
46:53Could I please ask, if you're confident that the debts are legal, why has Centrelink never defended them in court?
46:59The truthful response would have been to acknowledge that averaging was unlawful.
47:03It may well be truthful, but I wasn't admitted to.
47:07I needed four senior ministers to agree with me before I said anything.
47:11But you've actually said that using averaging is entirely appropriate, and you could not have thought that for a minute.
47:19At no point in this answer did I say use of averaging to crystallise the debt.
47:25I kept my words very tight.
47:26I'm asked a question, so I've got to answer in a way that says something and says nothing.
47:33It's a dreadful place for a minister to ever be in.
47:36There was no one taking responsibility at the Royal Commission.
47:40We spent hundreds of hours hearing the same thing.
47:43I don't at all recall that.
47:45I don't recall so, no.
47:47I don't recall it being briefed orally.
47:48I can't recall.
47:49I don't remember.
47:50I wasn't there.
47:51I don't think I attended that meeting.
47:54The politician said, I didn't know.
47:58The public service didn't tell me.
48:00Knowledge of the whole picture was never in my head.
48:04And I gather your answer is no.
48:07Well, my answer is I don't recall doing that.
48:08All right.
48:14I felt angry for all the customers that had thus far sat and listened to people say they
48:20can't remember.
48:22What sort of closure can that give anyone?
48:25I wanted to tell them that I remembered.
48:28They deserve to hear the truth.
48:32I was apprehensive.
48:33It could detrimentally affect my career.
48:38I didn't really feel like I had a choice.
48:41I couldn't live with the not speaking the truth.
48:46The difficulty of using averaging over financial year periods was obvious to you?
48:51Absolutely.
48:53We'd spoken out about it so much and we were ignored.
48:56I believe my mental health was not protected.
49:00I became a conduit for what we now know is an unlawful policy.
49:05But I was the one at the front line being forced to deliver that to people with no care for management.
49:13In fact, I was told do the work or go.
49:16I want to be truthful.
49:17Every manager you've heard who can give you a reason on how they didn't know and why they didn't know, who can't remember, I remember and I will not forget.
49:32At one point I was trending on Twitter.
49:38My best friend rang and said, you're trending higher than Harry Styles.
49:46Jenny Miller's son, Rhys Corzo, was 28 when he took his own life in 2017.
50:02Rhys, a casual florist, had been receiving letters and calls from debt collectors and Centrelink almost daily for months.
50:10It's always upsetting to have to go back in time and talk about things.
50:19I had been fighting and speaking the truth for so, so long.
50:24And I didn't want him to be remembered as a perceived dull bludger or a criminal because that was not Rhys.
50:37And he should still be with us.
50:39I'm sure every now and then he whispers in my ear and says, oh my God, Mum, you know, when are you going to stop?
50:49Like I say to him, I'm not going to stop Rhys because, you know, you're my heart and soul.
50:57So I'm not going to stop.
50:58Commissioner, the evidence today will commence with Ms Miller, whose son Rhys Corzo committed suicide on 26 January 2017 after debts were generated using averaging.
51:12Your initial letters sought information about how Rhys' debt was calculated?
51:18Yes.
51:19And you were not told that it involved averaging?
51:22No, no, not at all.
51:24They kept just saying it was manual and, yeah.
51:29But it wasn't.
51:34It's been very difficult to obviously keep persisting with trying to gain the truth.
51:40And, of course, through now the Royal Commission, I have been able to obtain the truth.
51:49It certainly broke my heart because I felt like I let Rhys down not knowing a lot more.
51:56But he was certainly let down by the system.
52:00Once I saw all the information that we have, it was both heartbreaking but also vindicating.
52:10So I do thank everyone.
52:12Thank you, Ms Miller.
52:13It's a harrowing story.
52:14Thank you for your courage.
52:16After seven and a half years of fighting, to finally have people believe my story and finally have the truth, the relief was enormous.
52:26Nine weeks of hearings, hundreds of hours of evidence.
52:40In the end, it comes down to how an illegal government program could get the green light and run for so long.
52:46Destroying the lives of so many of the country's most vulnerable.
52:50A final report into the illegal coalition-created scheme site sealed delivered to the Governor-General.
53:01Thank you for all the hell with it.
53:03Commissioner Catherine Holmes painted a picture of a near collapse of proper process within government.
53:10Summed up as an extraordinary saga of venality, incompetence and cowardice.
53:15Commissioner Holmes has recommended referrals of individuals being made for civil and criminal prosecution.
53:22But who they are will remain secret to not prejudice any future legal action.
53:28It's like running a race.
53:30Those people whose names are written down in that is the finish line.
53:36I need to get to that finish line.
53:40I need retribution for what they did to us.
53:43It reeks of injustice, continued injustice against people like me.
53:49When will there be justice?
53:52Lives were lost.
53:54People have not been held accountable.
53:56Having no justice at all for anyone, ever, I don't think that's in the public's best interest.
54:06If there isn't any justice, if there's no accountability for something as bad as that,
54:14well then what faith have you got in any of it?
54:17Robo debt stole a lot more from me than just the $11,000.
54:24Stole my trust for the government and stole my relationship with my daughter.
54:30Ciara didn't get the best version, mum, that she should have had.
54:35My lowest point was on that bridge wanting to die.
54:38But that depression and anxiety has stuck with me even till today.
54:53It's taken an enormous toll on me.
54:56I don't particularly live a life as such anymore.
54:59I haven't ridden a day since reeks passed.
55:05I don't feel like I can allow myself to enjoy things.
55:10I feel like I have this wall of armour on me.
55:14I think that's going to take a long time to lose, and I don't know if I ever will.
55:18I don't know if I ever will.
55:48I don't know if I ever have this wall of a parent.
55:51It's going to be a good job.
55:53You can take a long time to keep everybody going.
55:55And I don't know if I ever have this wall.
55:59I don't know if I ever have this wall of a parent.
56:02But this wall is going to be your friend.
56:04I think that it's a long time to keep everything.
56:08I think it is really really healthy.
56:09It's really nice to keep everything connected.
56:11I think that's it.
56:14It's a very good thing.
56:15I would love those names released.
56:23I personally think that they should be in front of a judge in a court of law.
56:28They shouldn't be allowed to get away with it.
56:31We have to have accountability and we have to have justice
56:34because without that, it will happen again.
57:45or visit lifeline.org.au
57:47or suicide callback service on 1300 659 467
57:53or visit suicidecallbackservice.org.au
57:56or beyondblue on 1300 22 46 36
58:00or visit beyondblue.org.au
58:03or talk to your local GP or health professional.
58:06you
58:07you
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