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00:00You've been putting a lot of emphasis on reading of Upanishads and Vedant.
00:03Why should my or anybody else's moral compass be set by something that was composed centuries, if not millennia ago?
00:11Vedant is totally amoral. It has nothing to do with your morality. It has to do with self-realization.
00:17Next, you said the Upanishads were written more than 2000 years back and times have moved on.
00:22Don't you still take birth? Don't you still suffer? Don't you still get attracted to women?
00:26Don't you still covet money? Aren't you still afraid of death?
00:28What has changed? You have no problem going back to Newton or to Kepler, to Heisenberg or to Einstein.
00:36But you have great problems in going back to Kanava or Kapil or Yagyavalki or Ashtavakra. How fair is that?
00:43See, when I read Einstein or Newton, there are ways with which I can crystallize what is still valid today.
00:50Isn't suffering still valid today?
00:52No matter how hard I try, it's very hard to convince myself that I'm actually suffering.
00:56In fact, it's looked like indoctrination to me at some level.
00:59We have become very skillful at hiding what is really inside us and that's called absence of self-knowledge.
01:06The level of anxiety in the common mind today is equivalent to the level of anxiety in soldiers fighting in World War II.
01:13Are we suffering? Are we suffering or not?
01:1570% of the wildlife has been eliminated by us in just the last 50 years. Does that indicate suffering or not?
01:23I don't have enough time to even worry about myself. I am so busy.
01:28What keeps you so busy?
01:29Why have you chosen to fill up your life with these things? You have one life and time doesn't return. How do you know this is worth your time?
01:38How do you know? That's the question Vedant will ask.
01:40I am questioning this very need to read Vedant.
01:44There is no need to read Vedant.
01:45There is no need to read Vedant.
01:46Exactly. The agenda was suffering, right?
01:48No, not the agenda. The problem is suffering. There is no agenda here.
01:53And it doesn't require a book or a sage to tell you that you are suffering. If you are sensitive enough.
01:59The sages are extremely happy when left alone. They do not want you to come to them. That's the reason they ran away to the jungles.
02:06I am Abhijit. I am also a PhD student. So, I mean, my question is that you have been putting a lot of emphasis on reading of Upanishads and Vedant in general.
02:15And other people put a lot of emphasis on reading of other holy scriptures and give it true understanding, whatever true means.
02:21But my question is that why should my or anybody else's moral compass be set by something that was composed centuries, if not millennia ago.
02:36I mean, you know, the moral contours of society evolved. For example, thousand years ago, if you say that, you know, child of the monarch should not rule over the population, people would laugh at you.
02:46Right. So, the society's own moral contours have an independent evolution, independent of whatever somebody wrote 5000 years ago.
02:54Did we utter the word morality even once? Vedant is totally immoral. It has nothing to do with your morality.
03:03It has to do with self-realization. What you do, what you do not do, it does not provide you with a list of do's and don'ts.
03:12So, we are just reading the books or listening the interpretation. We are not realising things.
03:17The very first question. The very first question. What did this person start off with?
03:22Suffering.
03:25No, not suffering. The need to know myself. And it is out of this need that this person put books on the table.
03:33Now you are saying, how will reading books on the table lead me to myself? Because that's the intention.
03:39Because that was the very intention with which this person put books on the table.
03:44I am reading so that I can get clues, hints as to how to observe myself better, as to what lies within.
03:52Now that's not a definitive proof. But that will help me inquire better into myself. That's all.
03:59So, morality. That's a good thing. We are not talking of religion here, sir. Religion deals with morality. Vedanta is not religion.
04:07Vedanta is philosophy that founds the base of self-knowledge. We are not talking religion here. No morality here.
04:16Morality. Where does the word Morse come from? Masses. The code of conduct of masses. Vedanta has nothing to do with masses.
04:25Vedanta deals squarely with the individual. Because all suffering is? All suffering is? You don't suffer in a crowd.
04:34You suffer all alone within here. Vedanta has nothing to do with morality.
04:42Next, you said something was written 2000 years back and the Upanishads were written more than 2000 years back.
04:50Something was written so many years back and times have moved on. Don't you still take birth?
04:57Don't you still suffer? Don't you still get attracted to women? Don't you still call it money? Don't you still die? Aren't you still afraid of death?
05:04What has changed? What has changed? I have hindsight using which I can come up with something better.
05:11So that's what we are saying. Use the hindsight. Go to the Upanishads and come up with a better life.
05:18Don't we want to use the resources that have been bequeathed to us by other people?
05:24Or do you want to discover the law of gravity once again? You have no problem going back to Newton or to Kepler or to more recently to Heisenberg or to Einstein.
05:39You have no problems with that. But you have great problems in going back to Kanava or Kapil or Yagyavalki or Ashtavakr. How fair is that?
05:47When I read Einstein or Newton, there are ways with which I can crystallize what is still valid today and I can discard what is not valid.
05:57Isn't suffering still valid today?
05:59I don't know which parts of Upanishads might be invalid today and which ones I need to discard and which ones are useful.
06:04The parts of Upanishads that do not deal with self-inquiry can be taken as outdated.
06:09We have to see every scripture, every scripture, rather every book, rather every word ever uttered will have two components.
06:20One is Kalsapeksh, which means which is dependent on time, relevant only to the times that we live in.
06:28The other is Kalateet or Kalnirpeksh, that which has a timeless utility.
06:34For example, Gautam Buddha's first utterance, first utterance of noble truth is, life is suffering, Sarvam Dukham.
06:45Now that is a Kalateet utterance.
06:50Unless through the process of biological evolution, we evolve into something that doesn't suffer at all.
06:57But that is beyond the horizon right now. We cannot envisage that as we are.
07:03Maybe super intelligence, AI based super intelligence would be that.
07:06Then maybe we could say now Gautam Buddha is outdated.
07:09But as long as you look at your inner condition, outwardly yes we have changed.
07:15The clothes that you wear are not the same as that were born in the Buddha's time.
07:19The technology that you use, obviously, mankind today is more prosperous than it was ever in its history.
07:23So all those things have changed. But internally, are you not still afraid?
07:28Are you still not greedy?
07:30That's the problem of the self that the scriptures seek to address.
07:35They do not want to address things that change with time. For example, culture.
07:39How to address someone? How to greet someone?
07:42How to pray to gods? That's not the subject matter of Vedanta or Upanishads.
07:46Which god is more powerful than the other one? Which day is the best for which kind of worship?
07:53The Upanishads, they laugh at such things. They have nothing to do with such things.
07:58They deal purely in stuff that defies time. They deal purely in problems that time itself cannot solve.
08:06Look at the problem of bacterial infection for example. Has not time solved that problem?
08:14What do you have today? Antibiotics.
08:17So that's not a problem the Upanishads will get into. Because that's a problem that time itself will solve.
08:23That's a problem that arises in time and time is sufficient to take care of that problem.
08:27The problem of life expectancy. The problem even of interplanetary travel. Time solves such problems.
08:37The Upanishads are dealing in a very peculiar problem that time alone cannot address.
08:42And that is the problem of fundamental human suffering. Suffering without a cause.
08:47Not suffering that is due to a particular object like a bacterium. No. No.
08:51No. No. All suffering that is due to a particular object will be taken care of by time.
08:57So there are three kinds then of sufferings that are mentioned in the Upanishads.
09:03Adhibhautik, Adhidhaivik and Adhyatnik. Adhibhautik is purely material suffering.
09:10For example, I don't have food to eat. So that was taken care of in India by the Green Revolution.
09:15Done and dusted. We are happy. Adhibhautik is gone. Adhidhaivik, that is again material but we do not know the cause of that.
09:20So that too will be taken care of by time. Then there is the very special third kind of suffering, Adhidhaivik.
09:27That does not have any reason. I have everything in life and yet I am suffering.
09:31I am the richest man of the world with half a dozen kids or a dozen kids and yet I am suffering.
09:39Now that's a truly Adhidhaivik problem. That's what the Upanishads seek to address.
09:44But if for the sake of the argument, if I, let's say for the sake of the argument, I accept that Upanishads, you know, get the problem right and you know, they identify what's the, you know, timeless problem to attack.
09:57But how do I trust that the methodologies that they have put forward are actually...
10:00There is no methodology. That's the greatest thing there, sir. There is no method at all.
10:07The method is methodlessness. There is no method. Innocence is the method.
10:11You are suffering and your own cunningness, your own smartness prevents you from getting to the root of your suffering.
10:19Can you look at yourself innocently? That's the method. There is no method.
10:27That is a method. Like, will this work? How do I...
10:30This is not even a method because all methods require a Methodician, just as all logics require a Logician.
10:39When there is method, there is somebody standing away from the problem and applying the method.
10:47This is a method of illumination. The thing is there and the thing is within you.
10:53Can't you just see? Sahaj, justness, justness. Now in justness, there is no method. Just see. Just see. Is that a method?
11:03Does it sound like a method? Just see. Without defences. Without applying great intellect. Just see.
11:12You know, essentially like a kid. Just see. That's the method. It's as simple as that.
11:17But people can't verify they have to do something.
11:20Yes, yes, yes. Wonderful. Can we move on now? No. Your question is resolved.
11:25I'll just start by saying one thing and then I'll give over the mic.
11:26So, I mean, in all this discussion, the point is that, you know, no matter how hard I try, it's very hard to convince myself that I'm actually suffering.
11:37So, is that an issue? It's incredibly hard for me to convince myself.
11:41Lovely. And you know, that's the reason, sir.
11:43In fact, it looks like indoctrination to me at some level. Do I have to?
11:46Lovely. And that's the reason, you know, historically, Vedanta has always remained a niche.
11:52Because the common man remains so engrossed in his so-called responsibilities, in his easy pleasures, that it sounds like an oddity to him that he's suffering.
12:10Suffering, when open, explicit, pronounced, is easier to detect. For example, you have an open wound here.
12:17You have an open wound here. You can see. But what if you have an open wound inside? What?
12:24And that's where, you know, the work of psychoanalysis, starting with Freud, comes in so handy.
12:31People who looked otherwise so very mentally balanced and healthy, when Freud went into their dreams, or when Freud applied the method of hypnosis to them,
12:43so much horrible stuff emerged from within them. Then that's Maya. We have become very skillful at hiding what is really inside us.
12:56Hiding not to others, but to ourselves. And that's called absence of self-knowledge. We do not even know that we are suffering.
13:02And that's the thing with the compassion of the sages. You do not know you are suffering, but he knows that you are suffering.
13:08And when he comes to tell you that you are suffering, he says, I was not suffering till this point.
13:12But you have come and you are unnecessarily impressing upon me that I am suffering. You are my suffering.
13:29That's a very real problem. You are right. And that's also the reason why, in today's world, when we have more objects to gratify ourselves.
13:37Historically, the common man never had such an abundance of objects to choose from.
13:43It becomes even more difficult to show it to someone that you are suffering.
13:47But when you go into the subtle indicators, for example, the metrics of mental health.
13:54Then you find that the level of anxiety in the common man today, in several circles, is equivalent to the level of anxiety in soldiers fighting in World War II.
14:04Are we suffering or not? If you look at the state of the earth and if you see that 70% of the wildlife has been eliminated by us in just the last 50 years.
14:15Does that indicate suffering or not? Not the suffering of the wildlife, but suffering even of this species, Arun.
14:22Does that indicate?
14:25I have just a question for you.
14:27Somebody wanted.
14:28Okay, fine. Yes.
14:30So, let's see. I don't have enough time to even worry about myself. Okay. Like, let alone forget about suffering.
14:38That's a very, very good aspect.
14:39I don't care about myself. Yes, yes.
14:40Because I am so busy. Yes.
14:42So, what do you suggest? Should I, you know, now sit on myself and understand that I am suffering or not, let alone live my life?
14:52No. If suffering is a stream, how will you watch the suffering by bringing the stream to a standstill?
15:01Suffering is in the continuous process of your busyness. Instead, if you pause that busyness and take a break to reflect upon you, what will you reflect on?
15:13The thing that you need to reflect on is the continuous flow. In the middle of the flow, you have to be observant to see what's really flowing.
15:25If you are so busy, so busy, what is that busyness, that sense of occupation for? What is it for?
15:36I mean, I need to ask myself, had I not been really terrified or greedy or something or something? I know it sounds bad, rude, hurtful, but excuse me for that.
15:47Would I really have chosen to remain so busy?
15:51What is it that is driving me from within to remain busy?
15:56No, no, that's not something that you can discover during a vacation.
16:00That's something that has to be discovered right in the middle of your occupation.
16:03When you are occupied and terribly busy, you are saying, I am so busy, I don't even have time to worry about myself.
16:10The thing is, why are you so busy? What keeps you so busy?
16:13It's a choice. From where is that choice coming? That's what Vedant encourages you to ask.
16:18Please ask yourself, why must I remain so busy?
16:23Vedant does not say, don't remain busy and just go and wander about like a rascal. No.
16:26It's an honest question, very innocent question. Why have you chosen to fill up your life with these things?
16:35Remaining busy means there are objects in my life and I am dividing, devoting my time to those objects.
16:43What are these objects? Where are they coming from? Who told you these objects are important?
16:46Were you born with the knowledge that these objects are important? Or is it a borrowed and implanted knowledge that these objects are important?
16:54The thing about Vedanta is, it ruthlessly questions your beliefs, your knowledge.
16:59How do you know, I am so busy with this? How do you know this is so important?
17:03You have one life and time doesn't return. You are devoting so much time to this. How do you know this is worth your time?
17:11How do you know? That's the question Vedant will ask. How do you know this is worth your time?
17:16Yes, next question please. There.
17:18I am questioning this very need to read Vedant. Okay. Should I stand up?
17:23No, wait, wait, wait. First of all, it's a bit like a straw man thing, because there is no need to read Vedant.
17:29Exactly. There is no need to read Vedant. What is the fundamental problem we started with?
17:35Was the problem that I do not know Vedant? Was that the fundamental problem?
17:39What is the fundamental problem? The agenda was suffering, right?
17:42No, not the agenda. The problem is suffering. There is no agenda here.
17:48I have a real burning problem at my heart. When I have a real burning problem at my heart, I won't care for agendas.
17:57So I have a problem at my heart and the problem is suffering. Suffering.
18:04And I have tried my best on my own to take care of myself and if you can do that, there is no need to go to Vedant or anybody.
18:10There is absolutely no need to go to Vedant. You know what the Upanishad said?
18:13If you happen to have come to us, and if you have gained clarity, throw us away.
18:27One of the greatest commentators has said, and some people will say this sounds like blasphemy, but then it is coming from a learned scholar.
18:37He has said, treat the holy books, including the ones of Vedant, like Kakavishtha.
18:43Kakavishtha, do you understand? Excreta of the Crow.
18:50Kauvegetati.
18:54Once you are done with us, there is no need to cling to us.
18:59Because even clinging to us will become another cause of bondage, thereby suffering.
19:04So it is not that we are pushing Vedant here, sir. No.
19:08No sir, but I will go further.
19:11I would say that Vedant would probably cause more problem.
19:16We are not speculating here.
19:18No, I am not speculating.
19:19You said probably.
19:21No, but the point here, sir, will you listen to the line of reasoning I am trying?
19:25Yes, yes.
19:27So the point is, forget Vedant.
19:28If you pick up any book, the best which the book can provide you is,
19:34it can give you some image or it can destroy some image.
19:38These two things a book can do.
19:40So let's say, and it doesn't require a book or a sage to tell you that you are suffering.
19:47If you are sensitive enough.
19:49Sir, he said it is very difficult to see I am suffering.
19:51You are saying it does not require somebody else to say you are suffering.
19:54So my point is, I am not talking with him.
19:57No, what he said is applicable to everybody through the centuries.
20:01On your own, it is very difficult to come to the cause of your condition.
20:06No sir, I don't agree with that.
20:07Then Vedanta is not for you.
20:08You don't need to go to Vedanta.
20:10My point is, if you are sensitive enough, not enough.
20:16If you are mildly enough sensitive, you will find that okay, I felt bad because probably I was,
20:22I had hatred.
20:23You see, the sages are extremely happy when left alone.
20:27They do not want you to come to them.
20:29That's the reason they ran away to the jungles.
20:31So the problem with Vedanta or any books for that matter is that they will,
20:35they will either create an image.
20:37We are talking of questioning. Vedanta is a huge question mark.
20:42Where is image in this?
20:43Why do you want some books for you?
20:46See, if you do not need Vedanta, we have settled.
20:48There is no need to go to them.
20:50But the thing is, vast majority of people need them.
20:53Probably, it's their own discretion.
20:55If you think you don't need them, the sages are all too happy to be left alone.
20:59Even if the chances are, even if you chase them, they will not entertain you.
21:03You are saying as if Vedanta is some salesperson pursuing you.
21:06Vedanta does not want you to come to them.
21:08Namaste sir.
21:10So, my name is Atal Singh. I am an integrated PhD student.
21:14So, my question is very direct.
21:16So, if I am a religious person, do I need to be spiritual?
21:21Or if I am a spiritual person, do I need to be religious?
21:25I mean to ask, are they mutual to each other?
21:28Do they complete each other?
21:31Or are they mutually exclusive?
21:33Who am I? See, I don't need anything.
21:35I don't need religion. I don't even need spirituality.
21:37I don't need anything.
21:39If I am alright with myself, I do not need anything at all.
21:44Provided I am alright with myself.
21:49You are born, you are enjoying, you are blissful in yourself.
21:53Go play.
21:55Engage yourself. Everything in the world is something you can accompany without getting hurt and the world is your playground.
22:03Why do you need religion? Why do you need spirituality?
22:07First of all, because you realize your inner condition.
22:10And if I realize my inner condition, what is this thing called religion that I typically go to as a layman?
22:17If I am alright, I don't need to go to anything or anybody.
22:23Right?
22:25If I am alright, I don't need to go to anything or anybody.
22:28But I am not alright. First of all, I have the honesty to admit that. I am not alright.
22:31I am not alright.
22:33And if I am not alright, then what is this thing called religion that I go to?
22:38Religion with all its paraphernalia and the rituals and the belief systems.
22:44Why do I want to go to that?
22:45Remember, the thing is of purpose. I am not alright.
22:50Now I am going to all this, all this entire mumbo jumbo.
22:54Why am I going to this? How will this help me?
22:56I want to be helped.
22:58I want to be helped.
23:00All this talk of gods and angels and this and that and the Genesis and the creation and the day of judgment.
23:08Why do I want to go to all that? How will that help me?
23:11My concern is my immediate state.
23:15I am here to live and I don't find myself being able to live fully.
23:20Why do I want to go to a particular belief system?
23:26Why?
23:28Because we are afraid.
23:30Let's face it.
23:32Because you are afraid.
23:34Because if we question religion, probably we will be ostracized.
23:37Because in our private circles, we might say, no I don't believe in this, I don't believe in that.
23:43But if we declare that openly, then there are forces that would hound us.
23:47Let's accept it.
23:49And even if I have my doubts, really strong ones, still there is the feeling.
23:54What if there really is some super power?
23:59What if I really will be fried, deep fried, in hot boiling oil after my death?
24:07So risk only, you know, just toe the line.
24:11Just follow the masses.
24:12Kindly explain to me, yes, yes, I am suffering.
24:19And for that, why will I go and perform a certain ritual?
24:23Why? Why will I do that?
24:27Except for fear and ignorance, is there a reason? Please tell me.
24:30You know that sir, you know that.
24:38You know that.
24:45So will this thing called popular religion, I address that as Lok Dharma, not Dharma, Lok Dharma.
24:51Now this thing called Lok Dharma, will it address the problem of suffering?
24:58Or will it deepen my suffering? Please tell me.
25:03And that's what has been happening through the centuries.
25:10That's what has been happening throughout the centuries.
25:12Then the word spirituality, it has come to denote spirits.
25:25Ghout, Preth, Jadu, Tona, Jantar, Mantar, Dayan, Chudal.
25:29Now, I am jealous of my neighbour because he has a bigger car.
25:34How will that Chudal relieve me of my jealousy?
25:37I think my wife is turning indifferent to me because I am becoming sexually important.
25:47That's my inner doubt, for whatever reason.
25:50My wife may have no inkling of this bullshit in my mind.
25:55But that's what is burning me from inside.
25:57And then you go to Babaji and he says, you circumambulate a tree.
26:00How will that remove this bloody suspicion from my mind?
26:04How will that take care of the lovelessness in my life?
26:10How?
26:14Is spirituality about spirits? No.
26:17The right word is self-knowledge. Adhyatma.
26:21Knowing yourself more deeply.
26:23Adhyatma. Self-knowledge.
26:25Know yourself because you are the sufferer.
26:27Come on, go into yourself.
26:29Go into yourself. What's really happening within?
26:30Come on, don't fake. Don't pretend.
26:31Very ruthlessly, very honestly go into yourself.
26:35Find out, figure out, look at your actions.
26:38Don't just say, no, but I intend to be loving.
26:41Look at your actions.
26:43Look at your thoughts, look at your desires.
26:45Don't just claim noble intentions.
26:48See what your real dreams are.
26:49Why we are not able to self-knowledge?
26:59You tell me.
27:01You tell me.
27:03If it's about our own life,
27:06we should be the ones to be able to very clearly sense it.
27:10No?
27:11But we don't do that.
27:13Because we have been deeply conditioned to be hypocrites.
27:17We have been conditioned to smile when there is no reason to smile.
27:21Look at your social media profiles and DPs and other things.
27:26We have been conditioned to congratulate people when we feel no reason to congratulate them.
27:33We have been conditioned to say good morning when it's a gloomy morning.
27:40And when you fake it so much and for so long, the result is that the truth becomes invisible even to you.
27:53You want to display a false and fake face to others, right?
27:59That's what all culture is about in some sense.
28:03Please see.
28:04Please see.
28:05Somebody comes and you say, he's a very cultured kid.
28:07Sir, Namaste.
28:09Shat Shat Naman. Namaskaram.
28:12And what does Naman mean?
28:14Bowing down.
28:16Are all these people really ones you must bow down to?
28:21You are taught to fake things without validation, without verification, without any authenticity.
28:30So when you fake it for so long, you start faking it to yourself as well.
28:37Two centres develop within yourself.
28:40One which is totally out of touch with the other.
28:44We have come to lead lives where we have become totally dissociated with ourselves.
28:49Therefore, you know, if you go into the etymology of the word religion, it means tying you back to yourself, tethering you back to yourself, pulling you back to yourself.
29:01There is an inner dissonance, that dissonance is the cause of all human suffering, that which you really are versus what you have become.
29:13Vedanta calls one as Atma, the other as Ahankar.
29:16This gap, this gap, and you can address it by any other name. You don't need to go by Vedantic names. By the way, Vedanta does not really need to be just the scriptures that were written so many centuries back, millennia back actually.
29:31Anything written today that addresses the fundamental question of human condition is Vedanta.
29:41Can you elaborate more on how that gap has appeared in ourselves?
29:46What do you mean by culture, for example? We don't say animals are cultured. We say human beings are cultured. Right?
29:58All culture is internal. And the external manifestation of that culture is, you have buildings where you have separate levitories.
30:10We don't start peeing here in the auditorium. Right? We don't start peeing here in the auditorium. Right? We are cultured people. Therefore, we will construct spaces.
30:19So, the gentleman here, ladies there, and then you have a separate hall for this. You have a hall for sleeping. You have a place for cooking stuff.
30:27So, all that, all that, all that. So, it all starts from here. Here. This is the way you must behave. This is the way you must behave.
30:37Now, please tell me. Where is this code of conduct coming from? Because all culture is behavioral. This is the way you must behave.
30:47This is the way you must behave. These are the beliefs that you must hold as sacred. Where is this coming from? Is it coming from within you? Or is it coming from your environment?
30:56So, these are the two centers. One is the original you. The other is the environmental you. One is the original you. The other is the environmental you.
31:08Animals don't have the environmental eye. Unless they have been put in captivity. Unless they have been trained to perform in circus.
31:20Animals just have one eye. Which is their prakritic eye. Human beings have two eyes. One which they really are. One which they really are. One which they have been trained to become.
31:31Trained to become. And we call that as civilization or culture or upbringing or education. Education. Real education should be about relieving ourselves of the false eye. Instead the kind of education that we have. It reinforces the false eye.
31:48That's how the dissonance has become so huge. And the larger this gap is. This partition is. The bigger is the suffering.
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