Cloudburst hits Himachal, Uttarakhand, India refused third party role in truce talks: Pak Minister

5 months ago

Cloudbursts and flash floods in Uttarakhand's Dehradun and Himachal Pradesh's Mandi have damaged several houses and shops, while two people have been missing.

Transcript

00:00Hi there, I'm Sorul Mehrotra Kapoor and this is 5 Live.

00:04Over the next one hour, we'll bring you five stories that demand your time,

00:07five stories that should ignite you and five stories to inspire your healthiest, happiest life.

00:13So stop scrolling and let's get started.

00:16Let's tell you what we have lined up on the programme today.

00:18First up, India, US trade talks begin in Delhi.

00:21US negotiator Brendan Inch holds talks.

00:24The Ministry of External Affairs officials present in the talks.

00:28It's a one-day-long affair.

00:29We'll know what happens soon.

00:32Wisp continues to turn a blind eye.

00:34Meanwhile, to terror state Pakistan, sources indicate Donald Trump is set to meet Pakistan Prime Minister Shehbhar Sharif

00:41on the sidelines of the UNGA summit.

00:44The army chief, Aasem Munir, is also expected to tag along.

00:51The big focus on Firefly today, massive cloudburst in Himachal Pradesh and Uttarakhand yet again.

00:57Floods engulf parts of Dehradun and Mandi.

00:59Shops and hotels submerge in floods to missing in the floods in Dehradun.

01:07Rahul Gandhi gets a new fanboy in the form of Shahid Afridi.

01:11Former Pakistani cricketer kicks up a storm by praising the Congress leader's positive mindset

01:16when it comes to India-Pakistan dialogue.

01:19Says BJP claims every enemy of India is automatically a Congress fan.

01:23And then Team India gets a new kid sponsor.

01:29Polo Tire signs in a deal to sponsor the team for 4.5 crore per game till 2027.

01:37Takes over the betting app Dream 11 as the primary sponsor.

01:42First up here on 5 Live today, we've got North India, which has been battered by floods one more time.

01:55Cloudbursts have triggered flash floods in Uttarakhand and Himachal, leaving behind a trail of destruction.

02:01Dehradun is in Uttarakhand and Mandi in Himachal are set to be the worst hit.

02:05Now let's tell you first what's happening in Dehradun.

02:08The heavy water current destroyed houses and roads, washing away cars and shops, taking it away with them.

02:15The NDRF and the SDRF teams are carrying out relief and rescue operations in these affected areas.

02:21Those are the streets in Dehradun today.

02:24In Himachal Pradesh, let's cut to that.

02:26Heavy rains lashed out in Dharampur town in Mandi, sweeping away vehicles causing widespread destruction.

02:33Debris choked key areas, also adding to the cures.

02:38This is the same area which in the first time around also had seen massive flooding.

02:43And even before they could recover from that, there is a second round of flooding.

02:48Take a look at this detailed report for more.

03:03The hills in North India are facing a massive flood fury.

03:11States of Uttarakhand and Himachal are battling immense deluge.

03:21Multiple deaths have been reported in Himachal, while at least two people are reportedly missing in Dehradun.

03:26The hill states have seen extensive damage to key bridges and arterial roads.

03:30The rains leaving behind a trail of destruction, with multiple locations reported to be underwater.

03:43The Tapkeshwar Mahadev Temple in Uttarakhand's Dehradun has suffered extensive damage after the Tamsa River,

03:50which got swollen by torrential rains and a cloudburst, inundated the temple premises.

03:54In Uttarakhand, late night strong rains in the Sahasradara area of Dehradun,

04:08flooded hotels and shops, with the main market suffering structural damages.

04:11You can see that behind Dehradun, there's another building, which was also devastated after the flash flood struck the Sahasradara area last night.

04:23And according to locals, there were two incidents of cloudburst, which has caused a flash flood.

04:29And the Sahasradara river is also flowing in space right now.

04:33Clearly visible over here.

04:34The building is quite sensitive and can fall any sharp point in time.

04:40And if there's another strut of calamity or if there's another pressure,

04:45it may cause the building to fall and completely merge in the river.

04:51And this is going to be very devastating.

04:55Torrential rains from a cloudburst in Sahasradara in Dehradun triggered landslides.

05:02Heavy downpours destroyed houses, washed away cars and inundated shops in the hilly region.

05:08Many have been stranded.

05:10And this is going to be very difficult.

05:40Three people of a family were killed in Himachal Pradesh's Mandi district.

05:47Flood waters inundated the Dharampur bus stand, sweeping away several Himachal Road Transport Corporation buses.

05:54Traffic has been disrupted on at least 500 roads across the state.

05:58The Met Department has announced a red alert for the next 24 hours and has ordered schools to remain closed.

06:04With Ankit Sharma in Dehradun, Bureau Report, India Today.

06:09Let's cut across live to Ankit Sharma, my colleague who brought you that report over there.

06:20Ankit, it's extremely hard to make sense of what exactly is happening in Uttarakhand and Himachal.

06:27There was a first round of flooding, then the second, this is if I'm not wrong, the third round of flooding that has taken place.

06:34And what you see flown behind or flown away is somebody's house, somebody's connection to school, somebody's hospital, somebody's livelihood.

06:43Well, absolutely Sonal, Uttarakhand is facing horrors of monsoon, we can say.

07:02And in one of the episodes of horrors of monsoon from Dharali to Tharali in Chamoli and now Dehradun, the cyclonic events of monsoon clouds,

07:13we can see how they have caused the fury in Dehradun's Sastadhara, Tapkeshwar Mahadev Temple and Maldevta.

07:22Now, these were some of the areas which received heavy rainfall.

07:26Now, IMD has once again said that this is not the case of cloudburst.

07:29However, people who were eyewitnesses, who were the locals, who have faced the fury,

07:35were saying that there were three or four incidents of cloudburst in Maldevta and Sastadhara area.

07:41And let me tell you that Maldevta, sorry, Sastadhara's, Manjara and Kaligarh areas suffered major impacts.

07:50However, the people were alerted earlier, so they evacuated in time.

07:54However, three or four people are still believed to be under the debris of the structure which collapsed after the cloudburst.

08:02Now, moving to Tapkeshwar, we saw that every year Tamsa Nadi takes a ravaging event and how the river collapses parts of Tapkeshwar Mahadev Temple.

08:15But this is the first time in many years that we saw that the Tamsa River completely entered the cave of Lord Shiva.

08:24For thousands of years, Lord Shiva has been, and this has been an abode for Lord Shiva's,

08:31and people have been thronging to this temple and worshipping their river god.

08:37And this is the first time in monsoon in many, many years, according to the locals, that such an event has taken place.

08:43And now moving to the Maldevta as well, the road of 100 meter, which connects Maldevta, was completely washed out.

08:50And people have been cut from the mainstream areas, and more than 25 villages have been cut off.

08:58There are now, the numbers are now coming in, and it says that more than 10 people might have feared dead.

09:06But the authorities are yet to confirm, and once they confirm, we will also update our viewers.

09:13And we would also like to appeal our viewers that please do not go near the rivers,

09:17because this is going to continue for the next 24 to 48 hours.

09:21It's going to be very crucial for Uttarakhand weather, and specifically near the rivulets and the riverbeds and the flood areas,

09:29where the rivers have taken a larger area and have completely engulfed the cultivation and have returned to their original path,

09:40according to the elderlies.

09:41They also say that in the last 10 to 15 years, they have never seen such kind of devastation so far.

09:48The last 10 to 15 years, devastation of this kind has not been seen in the past 10 years.

09:55The rainfall of this magnitude has not been seen either.

09:58And reclaiming their original path, now that's interesting.

10:01Let's pick it up with our guest as well.

10:02Thanks, Ankit, for joining us.

10:04Dr. Vishwas is with us.

10:05He's a fellow in Council on Energy, Environment and Water, CEEW.

10:10Dr. Vishwas, help me understand this a little bit.

10:12Every year, we see flooding in Uttarakhand and Himachal.

10:16This time around, even just when we thought that monsoon has passed, the worst is perhaps over.

10:24What we saw in Punjab, then in Uttarakhand, Himachal, even Jammu for that matter.

10:29We just thought that it's about getting over, then a fresh sort of burst of cloudburst, you can call it,

10:36or rainfall has caused the entire situation to get complicated again.

10:40Do we have an understanding on why 2025 has been this year of massive, massive rainfall?

10:50Yeah, thank you, Sanal, for having me on the show.

10:53So, I think this year, IMD had anyways forecasted that it's going to be an above normal monsoon of, say, 106% long period average,

11:03which means that it was anyways going to get very heavy rainfall this year.

11:08But what is very important is to understand that there is this erraticness of rainfall that identifies within season variation.

11:18So, month by month, how the variation has come in.

11:21And we can very clearly see that initially we were seeing floods in Mumbai, parts of western coast, etc.

11:27Then eventually Punjab, and then also now Uttarakhand, etc.

11:32But also the forecast is that, I mean, there is still a lot of rain to come in the later half of September.

11:38And that's likely to occur in the eastern parts of India.

11:43So, I think we will need to prepare for that.

11:46But we studied the patterns of changes in Indian monsoon, and that report was published last year,

11:53where we looked at that nearly 55% Tehseels, sub-districts in India,

11:59witnessed an increase in rainfall in the last 10 years, compared to the 30 years before that.

12:05And even when we look at this increasing pattern, what is more important is to look at is,

12:13nearly 64% sub-districts experienced an increase in frequency of heavy rainfall events.

12:20Like, you know, these are across various states.

12:23But also what is more important is, it's nearly two-third of India's landscape,

12:28India's sub-districts that are experiencing increasing pattern in heavy rainfall days.

12:32So, which is a stark, like a kind of discovery.

12:35We had seen heavy rainfall events increasing massively in Rajasthan, Gujarat,

12:39and many parts of northwestern India.

12:42So, I mean, this is the new science that is coming out of it.

12:45I think we will have to look at how do we address it.

12:48Talking about the same report, I found another statistic which is quite fascinating.

12:53It says that 64% of Indian Tehseels experienced an increase in the frequency

12:59of heavy rainfall days in the past decade during the southwest monsoon.

13:03But this pattern is prominent in Tehseels or states with the highest GDPs.

13:11It goes on to say that Maharashtra, Tamil Nadu, Gujarat, and Karnataka being one of them.

13:16So, is this for the first time we are drawing a very direct correlation between higher GDP

13:24translating into higher development, translating into higher infrastructure,

13:30sort of, you know, technical development over there, and that having higher rainfall.

13:36Is that parallel to be drawn?

13:38To some extent, yes.

13:41I mean, of course, these are some of the states where economic growth is happening since many years.

13:48And that's where the exposure, meaning that the number of people that live in these kind of states

13:53is also higher compared to other states.

13:56And the economic activities leading to industrialization, leading to development activities,

14:00all of it comes together.

14:01But also, if you look at the fact that some of these states are located on the coast,

14:06and especially the changing pattern that what we are seeing is,

14:10western coast of India is getting wetter day by day as it comes in the last 10 years.

14:16And future projections also suggest that the western coast of India, Rajasthan, Gujarat,

14:20parts of Maharashtra, Karnataka, are going to receive much more rainfall in future

14:26under various climate change scenarios as well.

14:28So that's where, I mean, it is linked with, of course, industrial development, etc.

14:33But also being located on the coast, and on the western coast,

14:37especially where the rainfall is coming to be very high.

14:40Right.

14:41Dr. Vishwas, a lot of criticism goes in the way of IMD to not give us very accurate results of late.

14:49We knew you're right that this will be an earlier monsoon.

14:53We knew that there will be a higher monsoon.

14:55But perhaps, did nobody get a whiff of the fact that this is going to be such an intense monsoon?

15:01One that will sort of wipe away GDPs, wipe away development,

15:06wipe away homes and livelihoods of people for a long time to come?

15:10I think, I think, see, it's, I mean, it's not, definitely not to blame IMD.

15:17But the science of climate prediction is very complicated.

15:21And especially when it comes to hilly states like Himachal Pradesh, Uttarakhand,

15:26I think the predictions, overall, it's not only about India.

15:29Overall, we see that the predictions, projections of climate data are fairly complex

15:36compared to the regions which are plains like, say, Maharashtra, Rajasthan, Gujarat, etc.,

15:41where there are not many hills.

15:43So, in these places, the challenge is that the climate models are not able to really predict

15:48very well the near-term and long-term forecast.

15:52And that's one of the challenges.

15:53But also, if we look at the observation network, like, you know,

15:57how many places in which hilly states have the actual rainfall observation stations,

16:03which actually feed into the climate models is also very scarce.

16:09So, I think, all in all, what we have to look at is,

16:11India has this monsoon mission under which there are various, say,

16:16Doppler weather radars, high-precision radars, etc., are being implemented.

16:21So, if we really want to enhance our climate projections and near-term forecast

16:26in the hilly states of India, I think we will have to look at how do we

16:29intensify the network of radars, weather observation radars, etc.

16:35I have last 30 seconds and I quickly want to get this, Dr. Vishwas, out of the way.

16:39A lot of people we speak to, you know, even what Ankit was pointing out,

16:43a reporter on the ground, say that conventionally, these are, you know,

16:47your grandmothers at this point are saying this was the original route

16:50that seems to have been reclaimed by the rivers.

16:55Could you make sense of that for me? What does that mean?

16:58I think, see, in Indo-Gangetic plains and also in the Himalayan foothills,

17:02there are many such places where rivers tend to take different routes

17:07and then they tend to come back also based on the landscape, etc.

17:11I think what is more important here is to look at mapping of existing risks.

17:16That is a key issue here.

17:19I think if we know that, okay, this is a route where the river used to be there

17:22and we are building a lot of infrastructure settlements there,

17:25I think the risk is very high.

17:27So, this mapping of risks is very important and especially to ensure

17:31that the critical infrastructure sectors like, say, power, healthcare and transportation

17:37at least does not get impacted during the time of disasters.

17:40So, at least these kind of methodologies have to be brought in

17:43and local scale mapping of risks, gram panjat level mapping of risk, etc.

17:48We will have to ensure that it happens.

17:50That's a good point there.

17:51Thank you, Dr. Vishwas, for joining us with all those details.

17:54We wait to see what happens next.

17:56Tail end of the monsoon, but it's stinging all over,

17:59especially in Uttarakhand, today morning at least.

18:09News updates coming in where a big confession by Pakistani Deputy Prime Minister has been made.

18:14Pakistan has admitted that India refused third-party role in ceasefire talks.

18:19Minister Ishak Dar has made a statement saying that ceasefire offer came through U.S.

18:26but India did not agree.

18:29He also went on to say that India categorically issued,

18:33made this issue a bilateral one.

18:36Saying that U.S. President Donald Trump's claim credit for India-Pakistan ceasefire

18:40might not be true as India said that it will continue to be a bilateral issue

18:47and no third-party sort of interjection or third-party talks and roles has been denied now.

18:58The statement coming in from Pakistan.

19:00We are categorically stating it's bilateral, so we don't mind bilateral,

19:04but the dialogues have to be comprehensive.

19:07It will have dialogue on terrorism, dialogue on trade, on economy, on Jammu and Kashmir,

19:13all the subjects which we both have been discussing with.

19:18So, incidentally, when the ceasefire offer came through Secretary Rubio to me

19:25on 10th of May, around 8, 17 past 8 in the morning,

19:29I was told that there would be very soon dialogue between you and India at an independent place.

19:37When we met 25th of July, bilateral meeting myself with Secretary Rubio in Washington,

19:43I asked him, what happened to the dialogue?

19:46He says, India says that it is a bilateral issue.

19:49We don't...

19:50So, we are not begging for anything.

19:53If any country wants dialogue, we are happy, we are welcome.

19:56We are a peace-loving country.

19:57We believe that dialogue is the way forward.

20:01But, obviously, it takes two to tango.

20:04So, unless India wishes to have dialogue, do third party involvement?

20:08Well, we don't mind, but India has categorically been stating it's bilateral,

20:14so we don't mind bilateral.

20:16But the dialogues have to be comprehensive.

20:19It will have dialogue on terrorism, dialogue on trade, on economy, on Jammu and Kashmir,

20:24all the subjects which we both have been discussing with.

20:29So, incidentally, when the ceasefire offer came through Secretary Rubio to me on 10th of May,

20:38around 17 past 8 in the morning,

20:41I was told that there would be very soon dialogue between you and India at an independent place.

20:48When we met on 25th of July, bilateral meeting myself with Secretary Rubio in Washington,

20:55I asked him, what happened to the dialogue?

20:57He says, India says that it is a bilateral issue.

21:00We don't...

21:01So, we are not begging for anything.

21:04If any country wants dialogue, we are happy, we are welcome.

21:07We are a peace-loving country.

21:08We believe that dialogue is the way forward.

21:13But obviously, it takes two to tango.

21:15So, unless India wishes to have dialogue,

21:18do third-party involvement?

21:20Well, we don't mind, but India has categorically been stating it's bilateral,

21:26so we don't mind bilateral.

21:27But the dialogues have to be comprehensive.

21:30All right.

21:31Let's cut across to my colleague Shivani Sharma, joining us live from Delhi now.

21:35Shivani, this is for the first time that we've got a statement from the Pakistani side

21:41saying very clearly that there was no role played by the US or the President Donald Trump there

21:48in the bilaterals between India-Pakistan.

21:52Please, we need to understand one thing,

21:54that India has always rejected any third-party interference when it comes to Kashmir Ismail.

22:00And what the Foreign Minister of Pakistan was mentioning right now,

22:05that he's asking, he seeks the dialogue, a comprehensive one,

22:08that also includes Kashmir Ismail.

22:10So, there's no question of a dialogue or a debate on Kashmir Ismail.

22:13That's what India has been very sure about.

22:15India and the Prime Minister, the Defence Minister,

22:19and several top officials of the Indian Armed Forces,

22:22they told categorically that how the ceasefire understanding was met.

22:27It was the action against terror camps, the action against Pakistani air force,

22:33the action against Pakistan that brought them onto knees.

22:37And just in four days, they were asking and they were pleading for a ceasefire and a big scandal.

22:42So, whatever Pakistan or Pakistan's ministers say, it's actually laughable.

22:47I was listening to him and he was saying,

22:49Pakistan is a peace-loving country.

22:51You and me and all Indians, we all know and even on the global forum,

22:55people know how peace-loving Pakistan is.

22:57So, peace and Pakistan are close apart.

23:00Whatever is being said is just another lie and a propaganda by Pakistan.

23:06Alright, Gaurav Savant also joins us for the very latest on this.

23:09Gaurav, make sense of these statements, please.

23:12What does this mean?

23:12We understand that Pakistan and US are also going to get into a conversation very soon.

23:18But at this point, what is this?

23:20Is this a goof-up by Pakistan?

23:21They didn't want this bit to come out?

23:23Or what exactly are they trying to play here with making these statements?

23:28So, this is a statement which is a fact and this does embarrass US President Donald Trump

23:34because India had insisted there is no third-party mediation when it comes to Jammu and Kashmir.

23:39Whether it's Donald Trump in the United States of America or Xi Jinping in China,

23:43several world leaders have tried to intervene and said that they're happy to mediate

23:48or they're willing to mediate or they want to mediate.

23:50And India has categorically said, especially after 1971 war and the similar agreement,

23:57that Jammu and Kashmir is a bilateral issue and it will be decided, you know, between India and Pakistan.

24:03That's point one.

24:04There's also a caveat that in a terror-free environment that Prime Minister Narendra Modi has made very clear,

24:09any dialogue with Pakistan can only be in a terror-free environment and for that Pakistan has to stop terror.

24:15So, this is Pakistan's Deputy Prime Minister.

24:17He's conceding that Pakistan had approached the United States of America.

24:22He'd had a conversation with Marco Rubio.

24:24He wanted America to intervene but Marco Rubio came back to him and told him,

24:28India doesn't want any third-party mediation.

24:31India wants it to be bilateral.

24:33So, now Pakistan is saying, we are okay with bilateral but it has to be comprehensive

24:36and India is very clear.

24:38Pakistan has to stop terror first.

24:40Prime Minister Narendra Modi has repeatedly said,

24:42So, Pakistan has to take action against India-centric terror for dialogue but it's a major shot in the arm for India.

24:51Prime Minister Narendra Modi on the floor of the House had said,

24:53there was no third-party intervention despite Donald Trump 30 times, 40 times, 50 times.

24:59You and I have lost count the number of times he said that he got that ceasefire.

25:02The fact remains, America had no role to play, at least in talking to India.

25:07India had said it has to be bilateral.

25:09Got it.

25:10But Gaurav, this is perhaps the first time India and Pakistan are actually saying the same thing.

25:15This is perhaps for the first time that we both agree on something that actually happened.

25:19Just help us understand what does US or perhaps Donald Trump even gain by making claims like these,

25:25especially in the environment that we are in right now, in middle of trade wars, in middle of war over, you know, oil.

25:32I mean, all of this going on, what does this mean?

25:35So, Donald Trump wants a Nobel Prize.

25:37He's desperate for a Nobel Prize and he tried everything under the sun to get one.

25:42He said, before I get into the White House, I'll get Russia and Ukraine to stop fighting.

25:46He's failed in that.

25:47He thought India-Pakistan is low-hanging fruit.

25:49I was reporting from G7 summit in Caracas in Canada.

25:54That's the time that Donald Trump made that phone call to Prime Minister Narendra Modi

25:57and said, why don't you stop by and let's meet at the White House?

26:01Now, that's the time that Aasem Muneer was already there.

26:03Donald Trump was looking for a photo op that he got the Indian Prime Minister

26:07and the Pakistani army chief to shake hands.

26:09India was wiser and India said, no, there's already an engagement in another country.

26:14The Prime Minister has to go there, meet the head of state before he comes back home.

26:17So, he didn't go to America and that's what got Donald Trump very angry.

26:22He thought that, you know, his Nobel Prize is slipping away.

26:25No peace between Russia, Ukraine.

26:26No peace between Israel, Iran and Hamas.

26:29And then between India and Pakistan, India has made it very clear he had no role to play.

26:33A military dictator who virtually usurped power in Pakistan,

26:36elevated himself to the rank of a field marshal despite losing war,

26:40nominated him for a Nobel Prize.

26:41And Donald Trump, you know, thought that if India also nominates me for a Nobel Prize,

26:45he may get one.

26:46But Prime Minister Narendra Modi keeps India first and said, no, you had no role to play,

26:50which is now being borne out even from the conversation that happened between Ghulamish Agdar,

26:55the Deputy Prime Minister of Pakistan with the television network.

26:59Right.

26:59Gaurav, let's listen into that bite one more time.

27:01But I dare say that this is this.

27:03The timing of this coming out could not be worse

27:05as India and U.S. are in middle of a negotiation as they speak in the national capital.

27:10And this news has just come in.

27:12Listen in to that statement one more time.

27:14Well, we don't mind, but India has categorically been stating it's bilateral,

27:24so we don't mind bilateral.

27:25But the dialogues have to be comprehensive.

27:28It will have dialogue on terrorism, dialogue on trade, on economy, on Jammu and Kashmir,

27:34all the subjects which we both have been discussing with.

27:39So, incidentally, when the ceasefire offer came through Secretary Rubio to me on 10th of May,

27:47around 8, 17 past 8 in the morning,

27:51I was told that there would be very soon dialogue between you and India at an independent place.

27:57When we met 25th of July, bilateral meeting myself with Secretary Rubio in Washington,

28:04I asked him, what happened to the dialogue?

28:07He says, India says that it is a bilateral issue.

28:10We don't.

28:11So, we are not begging for anything.

28:13If any country wants dialogue, we are happy, we are welcome.

28:17We are a peace-loving country.

28:18We believe that dialogue is the way forward.

28:22But obviously, it takes two to tango.

28:24So, unless India wishes to have dialogue,

28:27one can't help but notice a couple of things that are being said here.

28:37One, that Pakistan is a peace-loving country.

28:39Second, that it takes two to tango.

28:41Third, he is saying that we wanted dialogue.

28:44We are happy to talk to anyone.

28:46And they actually had received that offer from the U.S.

28:50He is saying they did not approach the U.S.

28:53The U.S. Secretary then called him up and said that, let's do this conversation.

28:58To which Pakistan agreed.

29:00But very clearly, when that same phone call came to India,

29:03we said, hold on, this is our issue and we will sort it out.

29:07Sonal, you are absolutely right.

29:10So, just look at two things here which are very, very significant.

29:13One, India did not seek any ceasefire or third-party mediation.

29:18America sought to intervene.

29:20In fact, conversations, if you recall, as both External Affairs Minister Dr. S. Jai Shankar

29:24and Prime Minister Narendra Modi have repeatedly said,

29:27conversations were happening at multiple levels.

29:30Various world leaders were in touch with India and with Pakistan,

29:33whether it's Saudi Arabia, United Arab Emirates or the United States of America.

29:37India did not seek it.

29:39Pakistan was seeking some way to de-escalate

29:42because by the 10th morning, Pakistan was in trouble.

29:45By 10th morning, Pakistan, a nuclear weapon state, Sonal, was down on its knees

29:51because 11 of their air bases, 9 terrorist training camps and launch pads

29:55and 6 radar stations had been decimated

29:58and India was going to launch a bigger wave of attack

30:00had Pakistan not sought that ceasefire.

30:03So, when America and when J.D. Vance spoke to Prime Minister Narendra Modi,

30:07when Marco Rubio spoke to External Affairs Minister Dr. Jai Shankar,

30:10India just made one point.

30:11If they want ceasefire, they have to contact us.

30:15It has to be their DGMO to our DGMO.

30:18They seek ceasefire.

30:19We fire the last round.

30:21That's exactly what happened.

30:23India fired the last round on the 10th,

30:26got those 11 air bases down.

30:28Pakistan sought ceasefire

30:29and that's where the temporary pause in Operation Sindur happened.

30:33No U.S. role in that ceasefire,

30:36a point that India has repeatedly made.

30:38And Ishak Dar now confirms that it couldn't have come for a worse time for Donald Trump.

30:43It couldn't have come at a better time for India

30:45because this is the time when the next round of dialogue is currently happening in Delhi.

30:50The trade talks, the U.S. team is here in India

30:52and India, as always, stands tall, firm on trade, firm on national security.

30:59That's the message that India has been able to convey

31:01despite all the questions that were raised in multiple fora.

31:05Gaurav, you know, this is also perhaps not the first time

31:10that a minister in Pakistan has gone ahead

31:13to sort of speak the truth plainly,

31:15only to embarrass themselves, of course,

31:17but speak the truth plainly.

31:19Earlier on, you'll remember that the statements were made

31:22about how Pakistan has been doing the dirty job of USA for a while.

31:26Now statements like these.

31:28Every time you see a Pakistani minister speak with a foreign media,

31:33you see a lot of truth being spilled out,

31:36but none of it somehow gets recognized by the U.S.

31:41Would that be fair to understand at this point?

31:44So there are two things here.

31:45You're absolutely right.

31:47The United States has actually used Pakistan

31:49and used Pakistan very extensively.

31:51It's almost like a use and throw mechanism for them.

31:55When they wanted to use Pakistan against the Soviets in Afghanistan,

31:59they used Pakistan.

32:00When they wanted a major inroad into this South Asian region

32:05and to keep an eye on China,

32:08that was soon after independence.

32:10So that's where Pakistan became a frontline ally

32:12for the United States of America.

32:14And even now,

32:16all that Donald Trump is trying to do

32:17is use Pakistan to checkmate India.

32:20And so far, he hasn't succeeded.

32:23That's because India is standing firm.

32:25Now, on the points that Pakistan is making,

32:27that we fight your dirty wars,

32:29something that the defense minister,

32:31Khwaja Asif,

32:32said to Sky News in that interview post of Sindhu,

32:36it's actually a fact.

32:37Pakistan has done all the dirty work,

32:39but it's also gotten away with murder and terror

32:42because of the dirty work that it did.

32:45And India hasn't so emphatically

32:47made its point globally like it did

32:50when you let the BrahMos do all the talking.

32:53You see,

32:54nobody respects the meek and the weak.

32:56When your BrahMos talk,

32:58the world listens.

32:59Right.

33:00Gaurav, just hold on for a minute.

33:02We've also now pulled out

33:03the previous comments of the Prime Minister,

33:06Prime Minister Modi,

33:07when he had confirmed

33:08that there was no foreign hand at all.

33:11Listen in to what the Prime Minister had said then.

33:43So what's the bottom line here?

34:00India has been saying repeatedly

34:01that there was no foreign hand.

34:02Now, Pakistan has also come out to say

34:04that actually any mediation was denied

34:07by India saying that it is a bilateral issue.

34:09Only India and Pakistan will sort it out.

34:11But in all of this,

34:13it has been a huge embarrassing moment for US.

34:15What exactly is Donald Trump thinking and claiming?

34:18Well, that's a story that will take a while

34:21to be sorted out for.

34:23Now, a fierce debate is unfolding

34:26in Indian healthcare.

34:27Not over treatment methods,

34:29but over who gets to use the title of doctor.

34:32Now, legally, MBBS, BDS, Ayurveda,

34:36homeopathy, Unani graduates

34:38can prefix their names with doctor.

34:40But physiotherapists, nurses,

34:42and sort of other health professionals

34:44remain excluded.

34:46Despite similar years of study,

34:48similar years of experience,

34:49sometimes even more hands-on experience.

34:52The Health Ministry recently put out

34:54that physiotherapists are not doctors,

34:57sparking an outrage.

34:59Remember, dentists once fought and won.

35:02They're right to the title.

35:04Practitioners of Ayush,

35:05that is Ayurveda, Yoga, Unani,

35:07and the homeopathy,

35:09continue to use the title,

35:10though their inclusion has often been questioned

35:13by allopathic peers.

35:15Now, in a healthcare system this diverse,

35:18what's in the name?

35:20Doctor Who isn't just a prefix.

35:23It's power, prestige, and identity.

35:25And the fight over the white coat,

35:27well, that continues.

35:30Here's a report to take you through all the details.

35:34What's in a name?

35:35You may think, maybe,

35:37a lot more than one would think.

35:39What's in a title then?

35:41Clearly a lot.

35:42Or else the Government of India,

35:44the Union Health Ministry,

35:45would not have had to come in

35:47and issue a notification

35:48on the title of the doctor,

35:50the prefix DR or doctor.

35:55Recently, the Health Ministry

35:57wrote a notification,

36:00a letter by the Director General

36:01of Health Services

36:02to the Indian Medical Association,

36:05saying that physiotherapists

36:06are not trained as medical doctors

36:08and therefore should not use

36:10the prefix doctor

36:11as it misleads patients

36:14and general public,

36:15potentially leading to quackery.

36:18The letter further added

36:19that physiotherapists

36:21should work on referral from doctors,

36:23not as primary care providers.

36:26Basically, the word of advice is,

36:28if doctors say patients need physiotherapy,

36:31then they do.

36:32But you may not necessarily

36:33go to a physiotherapist

36:35without your doctor's advice.

36:38The Ministry also pointed out

36:40that courts and medical councils

36:43have repeatedly ruled against

36:45the use of DR or doctor

36:46by a physiotherapist.

36:49Judgment from the Patna High Court,

36:512003,

36:53Bengaluru Court,

36:542020,

36:55and Madras High Court,

36:572022,

36:58as well as advisories

36:59from the Tamil Nadu Medical Council

37:00indicate the same.

37:01The title,

37:04without a recognized medical degree

37:07is actually a violation

37:09of the Indian Medical Degrees Act,

37:121916

37:13and could invite legal action.

37:17This was enough to set the cat

37:19among the pigeons.

37:20See how the internet reacted.

37:22The liver doc is pointing towards

37:28a larger crisis here,

37:30showing how doctors practicing

37:31alternative medicine like Ayurveda,

37:34naturopathy,

37:35Yunani,

37:36also ought not to be using

37:38the title doctor.

37:39The fight over who gets to be called

37:44a doctor in India

37:45isn't really new.

37:46For decades,

37:47the Medical Council of India,

37:48now replaced by the National

37:49Medical Commission,

37:51insisted the title should belong

37:52only to those

37:53with an MBBS

37:55or higher degree

37:55in modern medicine.

37:57But other councils

37:58have their say too.

37:59the Central Council

38:00for Indian Medicine

38:01permits Ayurveda,

38:02BAMS and homeopathy,

38:04BHMS practitioners

38:05to use DR.

38:07And in 2017,

38:09dentists had to push back

38:10and some hospitals

38:11and insurers

38:12refused to recognize

38:13their right to the title as well.

38:18In India,

38:19doctor isn't just

38:20a job description.

38:22It signals authority,

38:24respect and social standing,

38:26which is exactly why

38:27every profession

38:28wants clarity

38:29on whether the title

38:30is theirs to claim.

38:34In New Delhi,

38:35Srinya Mordani

38:35for India Today Television.

38:43All right,

38:43let's bring it up

38:44and open it

38:45to our guests now.

38:46Dr. Parmeshwar Aroda,

38:48MD in Ayurveda

38:49and consultant at

38:50ATH Ayurveda Gurgaon

38:51is with us.

38:51Hi.

38:52Also with us is

38:53Dr. Ishwar Gilada.

38:54He's a consultant

38:54in infectious disease.

38:57He's the MBB,

38:58the MBBS doctor.

38:59Dr. Parmeshwar Aroda

39:00is the Ayurveda doctor.

39:03Let me give the first word

39:04to the MBBS doctor

39:05to try and understand.

39:07So a lot has been said

39:09about the name,

39:10but the debate

39:11is not just about

39:12physiotherapy being excluded.

39:14The debate has become

39:15much larger

39:16about who gets to be called

39:17a doctor in the first place.

39:20What is your

39:21sort of understanding

39:23understanding on this?

39:24Does anybody

39:25who's not done

39:26MBBS

39:27not qualified?

39:30Thank you very much

39:31for having me on the show.

39:32First and foremost,

39:34because doctor degree

39:35is important,

39:36therefore those

39:36who are not doctor,

39:37they also want

39:38to put doctor.

39:39And that is important

39:40because it's a hard-earned degree.

39:43So the doctor degree

39:44is reserved

39:45and to be used

39:46only for those

39:46which are allopaths,

39:48which are done

39:48in a modern medicine.

39:50All other practitioners,

39:51they have their own

39:52designations,

39:53like Ayurveda person,

39:55they have Ayurveda acharya,

39:56homeopath,

39:57they have homeopath,

39:58Yunani,

39:59they have Hakeem.

40:00So they are the different,

40:01why they don't want

40:02to use somebody else's

40:03designation,

40:04which is to be earned

40:05through a particular

40:07course of medicine.

40:08Secondly,

40:08if you are not doctor

40:10and putting yourself

40:11as doctor

40:12and then you are

40:13practicing the same

40:14allopathy,

40:14which is you are

40:15not trained for,

40:16then it is a malpractice

40:18or a cross-pathy,

40:19which is not allowed.

40:20And thirdly,

40:21people in India,

40:22many of them are illiterate,

40:24they do not understand

40:24the difference.

40:26Almost 40 years before

40:27I made a survey

40:27of all these degrees

40:30and the homeopathy,

40:31Shindha,

40:31Yunani,

40:31naturopathy,

40:32one of them was CTBH.

40:34I asked him,

40:35what is CTBH?

40:36He said,

40:36compounded for three years

40:37in Bombay hospital.

40:38So using doctor,

40:40writing CTBH,

40:41I think we are

40:42misguiding people

40:43and this kind of

40:45cross-pathy should be stopped,

40:46this kind of

40:47wrong designation

40:48being used by

40:49those which are not

40:49qualified to use,

40:50that should be stopped.

40:52Dr. Maheshwar Arora,

40:54very quickly to you then,

40:56a lot of people

40:56will say then,

40:57and you know,

40:58let me put out

40:59some of those statements,

41:00many including

41:01the liver dog

41:02who is very popular online

41:03has taken it up

41:05as a crusade

41:06really to say

41:06that Ayurveda

41:07is not medicine,

41:09to say homeopathy

41:10does not work,

41:12to statements like these

41:13because this entire

41:14order against physiotherapy

41:16has opened up

41:17the floodgates

41:18to any alternate medicine now.

41:21So what's your view?

41:23So what do you think?

41:25Ayurveda does not work

41:26or homeopath does not work

41:27or Yunani does not work.

41:29Ayurveda is the main

41:34extreme treatment line

41:36of Indian public

41:38in general

41:38and

41:39and I think that

41:41I think

41:41that

41:42I think

41:42that

41:43the

41:43country

41:44has been

41:44in the

41:45world,

41:46he has been

41:46in the

41:47world,

41:48but

41:49it doesn't mean

41:49that

41:50it doesn't mean

41:51it doesn't work.

41:51It doesn't work.

41:52It doesn't work.

41:52Our doctor is sitting there.

41:53their parents, their grandparents, their grandparents will take all the treatment from the airwaves.

42:00And they work with the homeopathic, and they work with the UNANI.

42:03In the doctor world, what does the meaning of the doctor?

42:08The doctor means that they are going to take care of the treatment.

42:10So, tell me that the decision of the physiotherapist today was about training.

42:16So, how are the doctors doing the airwaves?

42:20Do they need to qualify?

42:22Do we have not given the PMT in our time?

42:24After that, do we have an internship in the first half of the year?

42:31Do we have no MD in three years?

42:33So, when training is the same, yes, we belong to different streams.

42:37But what does this mean? We don't do a chikista.

42:39In your opinion, there is no doctor or chikista.

42:43What does this mean, Dr. Rhoda?

42:45No.

42:46No, it's not my opinion.

42:48I just want to say I think I do personally think that there is a lot of wisdom in years of experience that has been passed on by generations.

42:59There is now, and the West only wakes up to it much later.

43:03But the prefix of doctor, instead of getting fixated with that, I think we also need to be very clear about who are these people who are calling themselves even physios.

43:15A lot of physios with zero knowledge are doing more destruction than actually good, right?

43:21So very quickly, last word, Dr. Parmishar Arora, then I have to wrap up.

43:25What do you think about it?

43:27No, look at the physiotherapist, the people who do yoga are doing their training is not the same as BAMS doctors, BHMS doctors, BHMS doctor or MBBS.