- 6 months ago
The New World's political editor James Ball returns to The Addition Podcast to discuss Reform leader Nigel Farage's funny free speech week. Ball was blocked from attending the Reform party conference, although he still managed to cause some mischief in Birmingham. Reform have also removed access to local publications in part of the country. In the second half of the show, we discuss the latest Murdoch succession drama, as it look like Lachlan has finally got his win.
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00:00A big thank you to MacPore and their product CleanMyMac for supporting this week's episode of The Edition Podcast.
00:16Hello and welcome back to The Edition Podcast. I am, as ever, your host, Charlotte Henry.
00:22And joining me this time once again is my friend and maybe yours, James Ball. Hello, James.
00:28Hi there. Lovely to be back.
00:29I'm thrilled to have you back. James is, of course, well, a man of many skills and positions even,
00:36but he is mainly the political editor at not just the New European anymore, but the New World.
00:42You've gone into the New World.
00:44We expanded, yes. We thought everyone likes it when England expands into the New World, don't they?
00:50Brilliant. So, yes, that's the rebranded New European. How's all that going?
00:56It's going well, actually. It's, I have to say, I still really like the redesign.
01:01Like, going from the New European, obviously, it started as a Brexit pop-up newspaper.
01:08It was only there for four weeks, wasn't it?
01:10It was only going to be there for four weeks.
01:11Nearly a decade later.
01:13You know, it had this sort of design forethought of something that you throw together for four weeks.
01:19And so, changing to the New World, they actually did things like work out a design and a layout and templates.
01:27And so, it actually looks really beautiful now.
01:29So, it's quite nice, actually.
01:31The website looks better, of course, but seeing the print product now is actually quite a treat.
01:38And I haven't got used to the new look yet.
01:40So, I enjoy that.
01:41So, you write at least one political column a week, don't you, now, there?
01:46I do. I do a magazine feature every week and at least one online piece.
01:51So, they keep me busy.
01:52As they should.
01:55And one of those pieces has sort of led us to the story I want to start with today.
02:01We have a few bits to discuss.
02:03But I want to talk about – this is a slight bizarre one because I don't really cover politics here, not in the pure form.
02:10But we have to talk about reform, the insurgent right-wing party led by Nigel Farage.
02:17And, well, they're not a fan of you, James.
02:21They are not a fan of you.
02:22Let's start with that.
02:24But let's pause and go back to the start of the story.
02:27Nigel Farage and reform always advocate themselves as defenders of free speech.
02:32This has included things like speaking out against the online safety bill in the UK,
02:39which is a topic I want to talk about with you because I know you've covered it quite closely.
02:44And it's also – it's included lots of things.
02:47So, they've been very clear on their free speech stance.
02:51I should also say Nigel Farage, when he does his many, many media appearances, tends to be quite good at taking questions.
02:58He's there for a very long time, taking things from all sorts of different papers and publications and news outlets,
03:06and always seems quite open about it.
03:09And yet, James, pick up the story from here.
03:12Yes.
03:15Reformers had quite a strange week on free speech.
03:18We'll come to some of it later, I'm sure.
03:21But they had Lucy Connolly on stage, who, of course, said to burn down all of the asylum hotels and went to prison for that.
03:29She tweeted that, didn't she?
03:32Yes, she did.
03:33And attacked the Online Safety Act and then welcomed the author of the Online Safety Act, Nadine Dorries, into their party and onto their stage at the same event.
03:44Former Culture, Media and Sports Secretary.
03:46Yes, a little before that, they had Nigel Farage flew all the way over to the USA to say how much he loved free speech and how much it was under threat in the US.
03:59And I was just gearing up to cover that.
04:02I had my video link already, etc.
04:04And I got an email from Reform withdrawing my credentials to attend their party conference, which is a little bit bizarre because I had applied all the way back in May.
04:16Their requirement for media credentials was that you have a UK press card, which I have, that you are from a sort of published outlet, which I am.
04:25And everything had been successfully registered.
04:28I was told I was approved.
04:30I was just waiting for my QR code.
04:31And then I got a two-line email from the press office saying my credentials had been declined, exactly as Nigel Farage went to show off how much he loves free speech.
04:42Do we have an explanation as to why?
04:45They have offered absolutely no explanation as to why.
04:49They have been contacted by me for it.
04:52They have been asked live on the BBC about it.
04:55Sarah Potchin was asked and just claimed to know nothing about it.
04:59Nigel Farage was asked about refusing credentials to journalists while under oath at Congress and said never in 25 years had he done it.
05:09But maybe someone else in the party had done it.
05:12I, my editor in chief, texted Farage to ask him about it, got nothing.
05:19I messaged Richard Tice about it, the deputy leader of reform who he and I have DMed on several occasions in the past.
05:28And he blocked my ability.
05:29You slipped into Richard Tice's DMs?
05:31Yes, of course I have.
05:32And he blocked my ability to DM when I suggested, hey, I hear David Bull, your chair, saying on stage that you are free speech champions.
05:42Does that mean I can come in then?
05:44I'm just outside because I went to the conference anyway and and I just got blocked from replying.
05:52So not I mean, they're not only snowflakes in terms of not letting in a critical journalist and they are snowflakes in terms that they won't even own the decision.
06:03It's quite bizarre. I am slightly taken aback just because, as I say, I'm trying to be fair.
06:12Look, as listeners and readers of mine can well gather, I am.
06:16My politics is not that of the reform parties, I think it's fair to say.
06:21But I try to be fair.
06:24And Farage is very good at taking a wide range of questions.
06:26But to not let you into the conference as a journalist is a bizarre, as you know, as you point out, a very legitimately credentialed journalist is a bizarre approach just because it seems almost self-defeating.
06:44And listeners might be thinking, why are you spending this time discussing, you know, going up to Birmingham to cover the conference?
06:51Why are you two talking about not going to cover a party that has, what, four, five MPs?
06:57I lose track of who's quitting, who's...
06:58Yes, I think they're on four at the moment.
07:02But this, depending whether you count a suspended MP or not.
07:07But I mean, they are polling ahead of any other party.
07:11This is the point. They're leading the polls.
07:14Yes, the Liberal Democrats have 72 MPs.
07:16They're the third party compared to reforms four slash five slash, you know, how many trends on the day.
07:23But as you rightly say, reform are topping the polls.
07:28Farage is widely considered to be have a real chance of becoming the next prime minister.
07:34This is not like, say, the Green Party, where they only have a couple of MPs, but are very much not going to be forming a government in any way.
07:45They're just not polling at that level.
07:48So it does matter holding reform to account.
07:52As it happens, I don't think the media is doing a very good job in the way it covers reform.
07:56And I might write something on this at another point.
07:59But it is important to go to the conferences, see how things are emerging.
08:07You know, we're four years away from a general election, so they don't have to present a manifesto to you yet.
08:12But it's important to work out how this party is growing.
08:15And they have stopped you doing that.
08:18Yeah, they want to say that they are a serious party of government, that, you know, Farage wants you to think he could be prime minister.
08:27He could run the country.
08:28He is not just somewhere to dump a protest vote anymore.
08:32And that means we know their policy on immigration.
08:35They're quite clear on it.
08:36It's very, very different from what Farage has pushed his whole career.
08:41Like Farage has moved a long way to the right on that issue.
08:43But he's traditionally been a right-wing libertarian.
08:48And the party he's trying to lead now is a lot more socially conservative.
08:53A lot of the voters they're attracting are a lot more left-wing.
08:57And so, you know, the line that they were saying at parties, we want to be the next government.
09:01And we think we'll be in government by 2027, not 2029.
09:06Yes, I've seen Farage say, he was asked at one press conference that I watched.
09:10And he said, do you really think this government is going to, this parliament is going to last four years, another four years?
09:16Yeah.
09:17And essentially, he's now saying we are two years away from being government.
09:23Now, I'd intended to go to the conference and look at how much of it wasn't immigration.
09:29I wanted to look at what, you know, what are they saying on health?
09:33What are they saying on education?
09:34Do they have much beyond inviting an anti-vaccine crank on stage?
09:40Do they have much beyond saying net zero is woke?
09:43Do they have anything beyond saying we'll get woke out of education?
09:47You know, they want to be judged as a party of government.
09:49So let's do that.
09:51You know, the thing that smaller parties tend to do, the Lib Dems partly, but the Greens in particular, is always say they want more coverage.
09:59They would hate to be covered like a viable party of government because when everyone knows you won't be the next government, no one really bothers kicking apart your policies.
10:10And none of these things tend to add up.
10:14The Lib Dems sort of do a little bit, but not really.
10:17The Greens last manifesto was completely insane and wouldn't have worked at all.
10:21But there's no point saying that because everyone knows they won't have to do it.
10:26Now, UKIP was always one of those parties where they weren't going to be the government, so it didn't matter.
10:33Reform, it matters.
10:35And crucially, it matters how they treat journalists now when they're on the way up, because if they're willing to shut out critical journalists now.
10:44And yes, I'm lefty.
10:45Yes, I work for a pro-EU newspaper.
10:48But I also write for The Spectator, for The Sunday Times, for The Telegraph.
10:55These are not radical leftist Marxist newspapers.
10:58I write for The Observer, for The Guardian.
11:00Like, I am not sort of, you know, an active subscriber to Marxism or a revolutionary communist.
11:08I am a mainstream political journalist, and it is absolutely ludicrous for a party that says it's serious about free speech to refuse to credential people like me.
11:21It also makes them look like complete cowards.
11:25I mean, you know, yes, OK, I'm six foot four nearly.
11:29I'm not exactly an imposing figure.
11:32I mean, having spent many an occasion in your presence, sweetheart.
11:39Yeah, yeah.
11:41Look, if we had a fight, you would deck me.
11:43You're not that scary.
11:46No, I'm five foot tall.
11:48Like, what do they think I could do in the conference?
11:51But also, what do they think they could do shutting out?
11:53Like, I am still in my 30s, I will stress, I'm not an old man.
11:58But I've done journalism for a while.
12:02And so, to make a point, I went up to Birmingham.
12:05They're hosting in the NEC.
12:07Which is a major venue, by the way.
12:09It's quite a huge venue for them to be able to fill out and have this conference.
12:12Well, they had one hall in it.
12:14They had a very large hall in it.
12:16Yeah, it's quite a bit.
12:16But there was a hall just round the corner that had a VTuber conference.
12:20And so, from my vantage spot, I could see all of these sort of young, pierced, goth, queer, and often genderqueer sort of teenagers looking very puzzled at the reform guys.
12:32I mean, that's an incredible image that I've got there between the two rooms.
12:36Oh, it was quite pleasing.
12:39And I think a lot of them missed it because they weren't where I was.
12:41But I basically, there's a Wetherspoons just outside the cordon for the reform bit.
12:47So, I got a table of the Wetherspoons and grabbed people coming in and out.
12:51And we also, we had someone, a freelancer, go in the hall for us and still attend events.
12:59And so, between paid and unpaid spies going in the hall, listening to people as they were going in and out, and talking to people as they went in and out, we still covered the conference.
13:10You know, it's pointless, but it's silly that we had to do that.
13:15And I resent having to do that.
13:17And I particularly resent them trying to pretend that they care about free speech at all when they act like that.
13:24But, I mean, their stance is that I'm going to make them look bad or I'm going to be unfair.
13:32And they made my job for me very easy because they made themselves look bad by banning me.
13:37Because you can't sincerely say they care about free speech and have them ban critical journalists.
13:43I have to say, we're not...
13:44I don't need to be unfair.
13:46I don't have to say anything dodgy.
13:49They did it for me.
13:50Yeah, and also, I have to say, I was quite taken aback as this all developed and you started explaining what had happened.
13:57Because, you know, they didn't stop The Guardian going in.
14:01No.
14:02They didn't stop, you know, all sorts of other, you know, publications that are very much not reform-supporting.
14:09It's a very odd position to have taken, particularly, as you say, when you've travelled across the Atlantic to tell everyone how much you love free speech
14:16and what are free speeches in danger in the UK.
14:18He quoted Voltaire in his opening statement at that.
14:26And then, I mean, very clearly doubled down and stuck with it as well.
14:31And, yeah, as you say, The New World, it's independent-owned, it's reader-owned.
14:37It's very much punching down.
14:39This isn't him banning the BBC on the statement of principle.
14:42He banned the independent outlet.
14:47And I think that looks particularly crappy.
14:50I mean, our readers have been very good and we've got some new subscribers as a result of it.
14:55And we're very glad of their support as well.
14:57So, again, I don't think it's done anything good for them.
15:00But it is wrong.
15:03It is stupid tactically for them, but it is also wrong for parties to do this.
15:08It is wrong.
15:09And I want to pick up on another issue that's been going on with reform, because you weren't the first journalist they've lashed out at.
15:15There has been issues in local government as well, because for listeners that don't know, you know, my friends in the US, reform swept through at the last local elections and picked up a lot of councillors and took control of a number of councils, significant councils.
15:30And they've had bust-ups with the local media as well, haven't they, banning some of them?
15:35They have, yes.
15:37And this is Nottinghamshire is really where the issue's been.
15:41And their local outlet has essentially been banned from going to any council events, from approaching any councillors, from getting any kind of communication.
15:52And most areas now, if they've got one local paper left that does any council or watchdog journalism, they're lucky.
16:01You know, almost nowhere's got two.
16:03Most places don't even have one.
16:06And so a lack of engagement with a local newspaper is just incredibly bad for democracy in the region, is incredibly bad for accountability.
16:15And, again, it's just not really acceptable when you are running public services worth tens or hundreds of millions.
16:23Yeah, I mean, Nottinghamshire is not a small little dot on the map.
16:27No.
16:27And, again, they're trying to come up with various excuses.
16:30They're trying to say it's about a particular journalist, etc.
16:33There's always an excuse.
16:35And in this case, they're nonsense.
16:37They are just not remotely living up to something that they've chosen to make one of their central values.
16:43And they need to be careful on this as well, because they made the very questionable decision to put Lucy Connolly on stage at their party conference.
16:54Yes.
16:54And they can say that that's about free speech and it's not about her very extreme views.
17:01And you can agree or disagree with her sentence, but she was very, very clearly legally advised that pleading guilty would mean going to jail.
17:10And she pled guilty and the wording of the tweet is not ambiguous.
17:15She says they could burn down.
17:17Yeah, I don't want to get too down this road as hell.
17:19But, essentially, you can say that the sentence was right or wrong.
17:24I think almost everyone would say the views in the post were repellent.
17:29And if you are posting on free speech, you can say, well, we had her on stage as a free speech issue.
17:37If it starts to look like you don't really care very much about free speech, if you're banning local journalists from covering your councils, if you're banning journalists from doing that, people will start to ask, do you care about free speech or do you support the views that were in that post?
17:54And I think they start to get themselves in some very tricky territory on this.
17:59I don't wish to be dismissive of your plight, but in many ways, I'm more offended by what's happened in Nottinghamshire and with the local journalists.
18:06Yes, so am I.
18:07With a local, you know, the head of a local council, quite a significant one.
18:12I don't know what Nottinghamshire County Council's budget is offhand, but it will be fairly hefty in relative terms.
18:19And for someone like that, newly appointed to local government to start doing that, really is very dangerous for local democracy.
18:28And, you know, you and I who write about the media and cover the media and discuss the media a lot, always, always, always highlight the plight and the death of local journalism.
18:41And for someone to use their political power to contribute to that really is deeply concerning.
18:48Yeah, I absolutely agree.
18:50I can get around silly bans on events.
18:53I think local journalism that's trying to hold a council to account.
18:56I've just looked, looked it up.
18:57It's 47 million of spending a year.
19:00And that's the provider of your local services.
19:02It covers very essential services for vulnerable people.
19:06It does all sorts of things.
19:08That is a real threat.
19:09And it's a threat that people are doing while they are taxpayer funded, while they are acting as public servants.
19:17And so that is the worst of it.
19:19I will agree.
19:20But all of it's bad.
19:21They shouldn't do it.
19:22Yeah.
19:22Well, I want to move on from this and we need to talk about the new series of succession.
19:28I mean, the story around the Murdochs.
19:31But I want to thank our sponsor first.
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21:14Welcome back to the edition podcast.
21:15I'm Charlotte Henry and I'm here with the New World's political editor, James Ball.
21:20Cue the succession theme tune.
21:22We seem to have a settlement in Murdoch land.
21:28We do indeed.
21:31There's essentially, when Rupes had two extra children in his 70s with Wendy Deng, his third wife, there was a mini succession battle then.
21:43Because the four older Murdoch children didn't want their future control of the company being diluted.
21:51And so they eventually all agreed to have a trust where they would split it financially six ways.
21:57But the older four children would have the voting control.
22:01And this was all agreed.
22:03This was fine for decades until basically they kind of all fell out.
22:10And also Rupert made it clear that he thought there should be one successor, not a committee of four.
22:18And he also made it clear that that should be Lachlan.
22:22And Lachlan tried to sort of split out, buy out his siblings for cheap.
22:30And he bid too low.
22:33And so they took him to court.
22:35And the whole thing turned into this big fight that also started to pretend it had these huge stakes around.
22:42And does this, you know, James was very critical of Fox News and its relationship with Trump.
22:51He seemed to have Elizabeth and Prudence on his side with that.
22:55And so there was this big thing on, well, is this about them not wanting to let Lachlan turn Fox News into a Trump mouthpiece, etc.?
23:05And I think there is a bit of politics around that, though.
23:07I mean, James has been doing this for a while, been really concerned about Fox News and stepped away and sort of trying to do penitence, hasn't he, with setting up other things?
23:17Well, he's done a bit of a sackcloth and ashes routine.
23:20There's a very long, very good profile from February in the Atlantic.
23:25But I do suggest reading that back today, as I have.
23:28I've just written on all of this for the iPaper.
23:31Right.
23:33He has just taken $1.1 billion and walked away.
23:37All right for some.
23:40Yes.
23:41And so essentially Lachlan has won.
23:44He now has all of the controlling shares.
23:47He's still got a financial split with Wendy Deng's children.
23:51But each of the other Murdoch children walks away with $1.1 billion and absolutely no assurances on output, etc.
23:58So I think it was probably good framing and a good way during the case to say that there was high principle at stake.
24:07But as ever, it always with the Murdochs, it comes down to money and it's come down to money here.
24:14I mean, it's all quite bizarre.
24:17I find this whole thing bizarre because you're talking about, I mean, essentially these are kids arguing in court about their dad dying.
24:26Yes.
24:29It's like.
24:29Very, very publicly about their dad dying.
24:32I mean, he is 93.
24:3394, I think.
24:35You know, but 94.
24:37And he has been very personally involved in this case.
24:40Yes.
24:40They're not on speaking terms.
24:43You know, this this will very much taint it.
24:45This is this is the worst kind of family psychodrama.
24:49And as you say, usually you have the inheritance battle after dad's dead.
24:53But Rupert Murdoch has got to live through and watch this one.
24:57But but yes.
24:59And he is very much alive and kicking.
25:01He's he's down in Westminster this very day.
25:04Yes.
25:05I don't know why he's in Westminster, but he's been seen in Parliament.
25:09So, well, there's a I think the heads of the BBC on the day we're talking about the Culture, Region, Sport Committee.
25:15So maybe.
25:16Yes.
25:17But I don't think he was appearing in front because.
25:19You know, he likes that.
25:21We know he likes that committee.
25:22So he does.
25:23He had the most humble day of his life there.
25:25Stop it.
25:28But there is something fascinating about how this will all play out.
25:32Well, first of all, I think the fact that it's happening while Rupert is still very much alive and, you know,
25:37a compass mentis, as we understand it and all the rest of it really underlines his absolute control freakery.
25:46Yes.
25:47I mean, he bought out his own siblings when his father died.
25:53Rupert is was one of four children.
25:55I think he's the only living one now.
25:57But he essentially his dad had a small Australian newspaper empire.
26:03Can you call it an empire when it's small?
26:06Well, he started with just one paper, didn't he, Rupert?
26:08Yeah, I think there were a couple at that point.
26:11But he essentially got total control over what he had, got rid of the siblings and then built from it.
26:18And it does suggest that he doesn't trust Lachlan's ability to do that after he dies.
26:24And so he's essentially engineered the same thing happening for, you know, the final successor,
26:32assuming there isn't some last minute twist in all of this.
26:35You know, there's still time.
26:38But as it stands, it seems that Rupert's had to do this for Lachlan, which probably isn't the most edifying look.
26:46It doesn't necessarily suggest that Lachlan will take what he gets,
26:51which is a much, much smaller business than it was 10 years ago as well.
26:55Well, that's absolutely right, because Rupert very astutely is cashed in on all the efforts pretty much at the right time.
27:02Yeah, he sold off the movie studio to Disney at a very good time.
27:06It was a good time to consolidate that out.
27:09He doesn't own Sky anymore in the UK.
27:12That's gone to Comcast.
27:13And so we are really talking about a big publishing house.
27:18They own HarperCollins still.
27:20Yeah.
27:20And then the Wall Street Journal, the New York Post, the Sunday Times, the Times, the Sun.
27:27And the Sun is not the asset that it once was.
27:31The Times and Sunday Times are still profitable.
27:33They are still prestigious.
27:36The Sun loses money and doesn't have much influence now.
27:40Oh, I'm not sure I agree with that.
27:43But they've still got Fox News.
27:44OK, what's the last Sun front page you can remember?
27:49Good point.
27:49Well made.
27:50Yeah, it is not relevant anymore and it's not read anymore.
27:54I'm not shocked.
27:54So just because I can't remember a front page off the top of my head on a Tuesday afternoon.
27:59Yeah.
27:59It doesn't mean it's not influential.
28:02The Times and the Sunday Times still matter.
28:05The New York Post matters a little bit.
28:07The Wall Street Journal and Fox News are immensely important.
28:12The Sun, I think, now is, I think it's fine while Rupert's alive.
28:16I would be very nervous afterwards if I were them.
28:19So you're telling me you don't believe, like, for example, during the general election campaign last year?
28:27Yeah, the Sun doesn't matter.
28:30I'm not sure I agree with that.
28:31I would spend no time on it anymore.
28:34YouTube matters.
28:35X matters and I wish it didn't.
28:38The Sun, it just doesn't have the numbers anymore.
28:42It doesn't have the juice.
28:43It can't set the news agenda anymore.
28:45I really don't think it matters.
28:48I understand your point about, you know, we used to always be able to remember those big front page stories and, you know, those famous big hit, you know, the scoopy investigations and the this and the that.
29:02I totally accept that.
29:04I do still think in Westminster people are worrying about it.
29:10Oh, yes, but people in Westminster are idiots.
29:13Right.
29:15Says the political editor James Bull.
29:16Yes, I don't necessarily exclude myself.
29:19We fuss about all of the wrong things.
29:21You know, most most political media matters much, much less than it did.
29:26Newspapers matter to the extent that what we write still frames what influencers cover and still frames what broadcasters cover.
29:36But our direct influence is dwindling and dwindling and dwindling and the Sun doesn't really influence even what the BBC's headlines are anymore.
29:45I just don't.
29:46It's not got the direct audience.
29:48It's not got the political clout.
29:50It doesn't really try to have it anymore.
29:53And it doesn't make money.
29:55The Times and the Sunday Times make money.
29:57The Sun loses it hand over fist.
29:59It is a very difficult property now because it doesn't have the prestige.
30:05It doesn't have the money.
30:06And I don't think it's got the juice anymore.
30:08And five years ago, I'd have felt terrified saying that.
30:13Yeah.
30:14I mean, it's fascinating.
30:17I, you know, I've got the Sun website up in front of me and there's, you know, a bunch of royal stories, something taking a swing at the BBC, some celebrity stuff.
30:28I mean, online, there's no doubt that the mail is more significant.
30:33Yes.
30:33Although diminishing now, I think.
30:36I think the mail still matters, but I don't think it's what it used to be.
30:42We've gone down a tangent here, but I do think it's an interesting one.
30:45I think it's a great one.
30:47And I, yeah, we can have a discussion about the mail and paywalls another time.
30:52But I think what's happened with the Murdoch Empire is, you know,
30:58is, well, first of all, it is, you know, typical of what's happening in the media as a whole.
31:06A fascinating thing, and I pick up a bit on it in my forthcoming book, Streaming Wars, out on October the 3rd in the UK, out on October 28th in the US.
31:15Thank you very much.
31:17It's, they've never really done digital, the Murdochs.
31:21No.
31:22Never got involved in the streaming wars.
31:24They owned MySpace.
31:25They owned MySpace, tried Talk TV here in the UK.
31:32They've stuck with very traditional business, media businesses, and done very well from it.
31:40The Wall Street Journal is a good website and a good app, but it's a very niche sort of product.
31:45It's not their main area.
31:48But yes, otherwise, they are analogue in a digital world.
31:52But doing well from it.
31:53They are still making money.
31:55They still have influence.
31:57Like, there's no real, there's a bit of a Fox News streaming service, but that's not really what gets people in.
32:02No, but again, they do have to look at it because these all have running clocks.
32:08You know, Fox News makes its money from cable carriage fees.
32:11Right.
32:11And those, that, that is on its way out.
32:14It probably has another 10, 15 years of vast profitability, but almost everything they do is diminishing.
32:22Yeah.
32:22And it's interesting that they don't really seem to have a path out of that.
32:26Well, this was why I wanted to get to this, which was, will Lachlan have the answer to that?
32:34Well, he's the chief exec right now.
32:36And no, he doesn't.
32:39Or if he does, he's keeping it so secret that he doesn't do it when his dad's alive.
32:44But that was really what my question was.
32:46But I don't think he does.
32:48I think if there was a play, he would have managed it somewhere because what you try and do in these things is you build it in Australia or you build it in the UK.
32:59You show that it works and you bring it across to America.
33:02That's always been the way of it.
33:04And they don't seem to have a play.
33:06They don't seem to have a tactic.
33:09They've got some very nice media brands and properties.
33:12I think there will be a place for the journal.
33:15They will be a place for the Times and Sunday Times for a long time.
33:19Yeah.
33:19They, of course, have this bizarre lawsuit with Trump, but I think they'll win or settle it quite early.
33:25Fox News clearly has a lot of juice, but they need plans to keep them relevant for the 21st century.
33:31And I'm not sure they really have them.
33:34It's going to be fascinating to see because I think now that this is settled,
33:39I think we're going to see Lachlan, what he wants to do moving forward.
33:47I think he will feel now like he has more freedom to do some of the things that are in his head.
33:55Or he can certainly use it as an excuse for not having done it before.
33:58So I think the next phase of this is going to be very, very interesting as well to watch.
34:04Yeah.
34:06Yes.
34:06I think it's going to be extremely, extremely interesting times in all areas.
34:13But I think he's got no excuses not to set out his stall now.
34:18Yeah.
34:18He is the clear, he is the clear sort of controlling driving force behind it now.
34:24And he needs to demonstrate that.
34:28All I can think of is each different episode of Succession.
34:31I'm really sorry.
34:32I know it's so trite and obvious to say, but that's all I can think of.
34:37I mean, I've had the theme music going through my head the entire morning.
34:40Exactly.
34:40Every different episode.
34:42James, I'm so pleased that you joined me to unpack all of this.
34:46It's been great fun.
34:46Where can people keep up with all your work?
34:51So they can look me up in the new world.
34:54They can follow my sub stack, which is jamesrball.com.
34:58I am at that on Blue Sky.
35:01Or they can just Google me.
35:02I tend to be around.
35:03I'm hard to miss.
35:04You can't.
35:05Yeah.
35:06Six foot four.
35:07Writes a lot.
35:07You'll find him.
35:10I'm at Charlotte A. Henry across social media.
35:13Of course, if you're listening to this, I hope you are subscribed at theedition.net.
35:18It's just a mere 50 quid for the year that gets you two newsletters a week with everything in it.
35:25And you can feel good about supporting independent media as well.
35:28What else do you want?
35:29As I say, the book is coming out on October the 3rd.
35:32So I hope you will pre-order that.
35:33I'll leave some links in the show notes as well.
35:38James, thank you once again.
35:39And I'll see you all next week.
35:41I'll see you all next week.
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