- 1 week ago
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00:00I am the reverend Jude Macaulay. I'm a minister in the Church of England.
00:18And I'm a proudly out gay man.
00:25I'm very happy with both sides of who I am
00:31But I've arrived at a crossroads.
00:38At 53 years old, I've finally met the man I want to marry.
00:43I love you. You know I love you too.
00:45Lots of love. I will. Bye-bye.
00:48But while it's my legal right to marry my same-sex partner, the Church of England forbids it.
00:54God says, thou shalt not lie with mankind as with womankind. It's an abomination.
00:58So if I do want to get married, I will have to choose between the love of my church and the love of my life.
01:06It was made very clear to me when we got married, that's it, I'm finished.
01:09It's not just a dilemma for me. The Church's refusal to treat LGBT people equally is proving to be hugely divisive.
01:18Some gay Christians have found extraordinary ways to resolve this conflict.
01:23So I suddenly realised that I was gay. And here I am, 25 years later, married to a woman who's had four children.
01:32And many are being driven from the church altogether.
01:35I stopped going to church, okay, when I was, like, realising that I was gay.
01:41So can I remain part of an institution that won't fully accept me for who I am?
01:46It's like joining a tennis club. You've got to play by the rules. If you don't play by the rules, then there are penalties.
01:51Or am I too gay for God?
02:01Did you go and see your mum? How's she doing?
02:04Yeah, she's good. You know, she travelled to see her own mother.
02:08I just like the way you say that, to see her own mother. Isn't her mother your grandmother?
02:14Yes, my grandmother is her mother, right?
02:18Very well.
02:20My partner lives in Nigeria, where being gay could cost him his freedom or even his life.
02:27I love you and I am missing you.
02:30You know I love you all the time. I just hope to see you soon.
02:33Okay, I'll talk to you soon, yeah? Lots of love. I will. Bye-bye.
02:37Yeah, bye.
02:42On the phone was my boyfriend.
02:52How long have you been together?
02:54Well, I mean, we've known each other for over four years through social media.
03:01And we recently celebrated one year as a couple.
03:07But I am quite ready to settle down with somebody that means, you know, a lot to me and I mean a lot to them.
03:17My dream is to marry in church.
03:21But as a clergy in the church, I will not be able to get married.
03:25I will have to be celibate.
03:28I will have to abide by many rules in the church.
03:34And to me that is a great disservice and discrimination against same-gender loving individuals.
03:40But I have great hope that the church will change its mind like they did for slavery, like they did for the inclusion of women.
03:46And I believe that they will do the same, you know, for the inclusion of LGBT Christians as well.
03:55May I speak in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.
03:59Amen.
04:00Good morning, church.
04:02Good morning.
04:04Are we ready to be taken prisoner for Christ?
04:08The Church of England is Britain's biggest Christian denomination.
04:13It considers gay sex to be sinful but not gay identity.
04:18As a minister, I can be openly gay, but actually having sex with my partner is strictly forbidden.
04:24But today we can think of many people who are outsiders, those who are born differently, including those who identify as lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender or indeed queer people.
04:37The Church says, I can have a boyfriend, but we have to remain celibate.
04:41We can never get married in the church, and if I go ahead and marry him anyway, I won't be allowed to keep my job as a clergyman.
04:50So I have to choose, my church or my heart.
04:54It is important that we look out for those missing at the table of communion and welcome them home, because we have a ministry to the outsider.
05:05Amen.
05:07Amen.
05:08Me and many other LGBT Christians, both lay people and clergy, want to be fully accepted by the church.
05:17That means having the right to get married and have our relationships celebrated like everyone else.
05:27Same-sex marriage has been legal in Great Britain since 2014.
05:32But unlike the churches of Scotland and Wales, the Church of England does not accept it.
05:42I want to find out what would happen if I went ahead and exercised my legal right to marry my boyfriend in a registry office.
05:50Hello.
05:51How are you doing?
05:52I've come to meet Andrew Forshaw Kane and his husband, Stephen.
05:58Good to meet you.
06:00How are you, mate?
06:01Jideh.
06:02Nice to meet you.
06:03Andrew was the first gay Church of England vicar to marry his same-sex partner.
06:08He found out the hard way what happens when clergy go against the church's rules.
06:13I just love the way you guys were holding hands.
06:15Andrew still wears a dog collar, but can no longer practice as a vicar because the church refused to renew his license after he got married.
06:23He's crying. He's very teary.
06:25That's so beautiful.
06:28I got...
06:30You were emotional there as well.
06:32Yeah, it's quite hard to say, those words actually.
06:36That's me sighing heavily because I think I knew that we were in trouble for some people.
06:40At that point.
06:41Yeah, we'd done it. We got married.
06:43There was a lot of press interest and pressure put upon us not to get married.
06:48Yeah.
06:49And in fact, my bishop called me in to try...
06:53He started off by trying to sort of cajole me and persuade me and tried a whole bunch of arguments like, you know,
06:59why don't you have a civil partnership?
07:00Well, I don't want to have a civil partnership. I want to get married.
07:03Why don't you wait?
07:05And I pointed out that the women waited 40 years.
07:08And if I waited 40 years, I'll be dead.
07:11And...
07:12I just laughed.
07:13I mean, the idea that a bishop gets to tell us when and how we can actually exercise our legal right to get married was just ridiculous.
07:20But, you know, I mean, the law itself does not actually allow gay people to get married in their church.
07:27Not in the Church of England.
07:29Individual churches and denominations can make their own decisions.
07:33And if a Church of England vicar attempts to do so, so writes their names in the registers,
07:38there's a two-year prison sentence for falsely declaring marriage.
07:42I think the beautiful thing about it is, I mean, you've done this in a way I think is also an act of defiance.
07:49Do you think it's an act of defiance?
07:51It wasn't at the time.
07:53We didn't set out to do anything other than do something for ourselves.
08:00After I wrote to my bishop and told him we were married, he then didn't even bother speaking to me again.
08:05And he just sent, I had a letter sent to me in which he said I had been informally rebuked.
08:11And does that lead to your license being revoked?
08:14When I came up here, that was a choice. I chose to leave and retire.
08:18Because you got a job, didn't you?
08:19Mm-hm.
08:20Up here in the North.
08:21And basically, do his laundry.
08:25You should be so lucky.
08:27No, you should be so lucky.
08:29So I want to get out.
08:30You want to get out.
08:31Mwah.
08:32Okay.
08:33As much as I like spending my Saturday talking about the church.
08:35Thank you, lovely.
08:36Good luck.
08:37But I think that, you know, it seems that situation actually made you make that decision.
08:40Like, look, I'm certainly not going to compromise my relationship with my husband.
08:44You know, I'm going to resign.
08:45It was made very clear to me, when we got married, I would never get another license.
08:49So if I gave up the one I had, that's it, I'm finished.
08:52In an ideal world, I could have continued both by being a priest up here.
08:56But of course, that's not possible.
08:58So my vocation to him came first.
09:01Andrew sacrificed his career and his calling to marry his husband.
09:05It's a choice I dread having to make.
09:08My journey so far, you know, has been docked with so many things where I feel like, you know,
09:14I'm losing my own self-worth.
09:16I'm losing my sense of my own integrity.
09:18Yeah.
09:19But at the same time, I also want to hold on to my own standard of authenticity,
09:24so that when people see me, they understand this is me.
09:28Yeah.
09:29But it has been quite challenging with all the rules and, you know,
09:32the level of discrimination is just too hard.
09:34Yeah.
09:35And if it gets to the point where your sense of being true to yourself,
09:39being the best person that you can be as a Christian,
09:42and you need to get out, you should just get out.
09:45Seeing Andrew with his husband has reinforced how much I want to get married.
09:56But hearing the price he paid has brought home the reality.
10:04Why can't I get married and be a priest?
10:08My church says same-sex marriage goes against the word of God.
10:18But what does the Bible actually say about same-sex relationships?
10:25I'm meeting Ian Paul, a conservative biblical scholar with family-held ideas.
10:31Hi.
10:32Peter, nice to meet you.
10:33Nice to meet you.
10:34Good.
10:35The Bible was written over many centuries by many people.
10:38One of the oldest parts is the book of Leviticus,
10:42which sets out the instructions on moral and legal practices as given to us by God.
10:49In Leviticus chapter 18 and in Leviticus 20, God says,
10:54Thou shalt not lie with mankind as with womankind.
10:57It's an abomination.
10:58Now, there's a number of different aspects of this text,
11:00but I think it seems to me this text is a pretty clear testimony to the fact that in ancient Israel,
11:07that same-sex sexual relating was prohibited.
11:10And I think there's some clues in the text as well which show that this understanding is rooted.
11:15It goes back to that text in Genesis, the creation text, because God made man and woman,
11:20a man and woman to come together in marriage and sexual relating.
11:23When it comes to the Leviticus reading, man should not lie with a man is an abomination,
11:29they shall be put to death.
11:30I think we need to look at the whole of the Leviticus code itself.
11:34There are many things in Leviticus that says we should not do.
11:37And I think that it's not really about just, you know, being picky on these issues.
11:41It's about being clear about, you know, does this work today?
11:46Another key part of the Bible frequently interpreted as being anti-gay are the letters of St. Paul,
11:53written centuries after Leviticus.
11:56He talks about the unrighteous should not inherit the kingdom, don't be deceived,
12:00fornicators, adulterers, adulterers.
12:02This language talks about the effeminate.
12:04But the translation of effeminate is not homosexuality.
12:09No, I agree.
12:10I think that people have used this, you know, to bash, to abuse,
12:14and to demonize those who are same-gender loving.
12:17And I think that's entirely wrong.
12:19I agree.
12:20And I think that the other thing here is that...
12:21The question is not so much, I mean, that is an important question,
12:24but the question for the church, for our church, the Church of England,
12:27and for Christian churches is not should we abuse people,
12:30because we'd agree you shouldn't.
12:32The question is for Paul writing to the Christians in Corinth,
12:34what does sexual holiness look like?
12:36And I think this text says sexual holiness looks like exactly what we've seen described in Genesis 2,
12:43a man and a woman coming together.
12:45What does holiness look like?
12:46The same as in Leviticus, that it's not about a man lying with a man as with a woman.
12:50So it seems to me that the scriptures are very consistent.
12:53And that means for me, in the current debates we're having in the Church of England,
12:56and there's been lots of listening, there's been lots of debate,
12:59and people are kind of bending over backwards to say,
13:01well, you could read this text in a different way,
13:03or you could read that text in a different way.
13:05Actually, I think the people I respect most are the ones who say,
13:08do you know what, let's agree on what the Bible says.
13:11Historically, we've based our teaching on what scripture says.
13:14I think we need to continue doing that.
13:16I respect Ayan's scholarly view, but there are many things that the Bible prohibits,
13:21like eating shellfish and even shaving our side buns.
13:25Why have we held on to the bits that justify discrimination against LGBT people?
13:32It's a constant reminder of my own truth.
13:35They want us to look at the scripture from the eyes of the abuser.
13:40When people say that, you know, all are welcome, and then they put a condition on that welcoming,
13:45it means that you will never welcome in the first place.
13:49I haven't always been a member of the Church of England.
13:56I was brought up in the Pentecostal Church.
14:03It is still a strong and, for me, deeply important part of my spiritual heritage.
14:09But when it comes to homosexuality, the Pentecostal Church is even more conservative than the Church of England.
14:22There was no way I could remain in the church I grew up in,
14:26after I stopped hiding my true sexual identity and came out as gay.
14:31But embracing my sexuality didn't just mean losing my Pentecostal community.
14:44I was born in London, but I grew up in Nigeria, where my father still lives.
14:51My dad is a clergy in Nigeria who is well-known within the faith communities and within politics.
14:58My relationship with my dad became a major public issue.
15:04He's always maintained the fact that, you know, relationship is between a man and a woman,
15:10according to his own theological interpretation.
15:13And, of course, I no longer bought into that.
15:16My father runs the second largest Bible university or theological college in the country.
15:21He believes he has a moral duty to advise the government against homosexuality, regardless of the fact that his son is gay.
15:31Ten years ago, my father gave this interview to a Nigerian national newspaper.
15:36My position is very clear. I've made it known to my son, to my family and everybody that I stand against homosexuality and lesbianism.
15:45I'm a Bible teacher. The Bible condemns the act and I keep what the Bible says.
15:50The Nigerian constitution stipulates quite clearly that canon knowledge against the order of nature is prohibited.
16:01And, of course, it carries a maximum of 14 years imprisonment.
16:05In the northern states of Nigeria, under Sharia law, if you're convicted, it's actually stoning, you know, death by stoning.
16:13In a letter to his son shortly after discovering his son's homosexuality, he wrote,
16:20People in Nigeria here love you and rate you high in their lives.
16:24But in the same letter, he warned that his son's homosexuality is not only abominable, but a great disgrace to our family.
16:31Professor Macaulay supports the anti-gay legislation.
16:34He says he won't feel very bad if his son wind up in prison, which he even sees has a possible means of turning his son straight.
16:44Come on. He says he won't feel very bad if his son wind up in prison, which he sees has a possible means of turning his son straight.
16:54Wow.
16:55I sought refuge in the Church of England because they are more inclusive than my previous church.
17:06But I'm now realizing that they too have a long way to go.
17:11So this is where we normally do our eight o'clock services. We'll put your chairs in here and you'd find me...
17:18Peter Old is a gay reverend who faced the same dilemma as me.
17:22But he came up with an extreme solution.
17:28Can I learn anything from how he handled being gay in the church?
17:33So up until my early twenties, I thought I was waiting for the right girl.
17:37There was a moment where I suddenly clicked and realized I was actually waiting for the right boy.
17:41So I became a Christian. About a year or so later, I suddenly really realized that I was gay.
17:44And here I am, 25 years later, married to a woman who's had four children.
17:52You know, it's kind of very interesting where life takes you once you let God take control.
17:58You're now married, but you still identify as gay. Do you still have an attraction for a same-sex relationship?
18:09I'm almost cautious of using the language of gay and straight or bi because I think they're inadequate to describe the complexity of human sexuality.
18:19If you want to put a label on me, it's gay. Right.
18:23I met my wife. I actually walked into church and saw her tuning up her guitar and fell in love with her.
18:29It was the most weird sort of thing. But predominantly my sexual attractions and my emotional attractions are towards men.
18:37But did you talk to her clearly about, you know, and how did you...
18:44My wife is the only woman I've really ever been sexually attracted to.
18:50And that was never a problem for us.
18:54And I've had four children, so, and lots of practice in between, right?
18:59You know, there are some of the things that you say that I find quite confusing.
19:02You are a gay man, but now you are married to a woman.
19:09I'm not sure what the confusion is because I'm using gay to describe my sexual feelings and my predominant emotional attractions.
19:22But I've also discovered that I fell in love with a woman.
19:25It's about understanding what the Bible says about God's purposes for human relationships and particularly procreative relationships and buying into that.
19:38And that's what happened for me, right?
19:40In my 20s, I bought into the idea that my body is designed sexually to be in a relationship with a woman.
19:47And once I bought into that, once I go, actually, this is a vision for my life that I can commit to.
19:56It's not about being gay or straight. It's not about saying it's unfair to be single.
20:00It's simply about saying God has designed me as a human being to exhibit in my body and my choices more than just myself.
20:07That my life isn't just about me. It's about Jesus and what my life tells about him.
20:14If the Church of England was to allow the blessing of same-sex marriage, how would you feel and what do you think it would look like?
20:22Oh, I mean, I think I and many other people will be very disappointed.
20:28And I have to say, I'm not sure how we bridge that gap. I'd love to have some ideas.
20:34I'd love to find a position where my side and your side both have integrity together.
20:41My fear is that one of us has to lose.
20:46Because, because, ultimately, one of us is right and one of us is wrong.
20:55This is the first time I'm meeting a gay man who tells me he's married to a woman and that it's okay.
21:01For me, it's not okay. In fact, the Church would like every gay man to be in a relationship with a woman.
21:06I do not want to be in a relationship with a woman. I want to be in a relationship with my boyfriend.
21:12I want the Church to honor, respect and welcome me in that relationship and bless that relationship.
21:17And I'm sure that many millions of gay men and women, you know, also are hoping for that.
21:25Peter's situation touched a nerve with me.
21:29It's much closer to home than I'd like to admit.
21:36I was once married.
21:45With a baby.
21:47That's my child in my hand there.
21:49And the ex-wife.
21:51We're definitely happy in this one.
21:54Really very happy.
21:57Why did you get married?
21:59When I married my ex-wife, I strongly believed that I was doing the right thing.
22:03Four years before I got married, I did struggle around my sexuality and my faith.
22:12So I, you know, I was determined, you know, to pray my homosexuality away.
22:19I mean, I prayed, I fasted. It was that part of my Christian journey that nothing is impossible for God to do.
22:27Three years after our marriage, I was having a breakdown. I needed to get out of this situation that I've created for myself.
22:40So when I told her that I'm gay, it was a very emotional evening, emotional day for me.
22:46And then, unfortunately, the separation became acrimonious.
22:52I was excommunicated from the church.
22:56Even some of the elders of the church got involved to the point that they came along to help put me out of my home.
23:03If I was to wind the clock back to the time where I was praying to God to take away my homosexuality, I should have been praying to God to affirm my homosexuality rather than cure me of something that does not need curing.
23:18It's important for black people to moisturize, so when people say that black don't crack, you know why? We must moisturize.
23:38Oh, God.
23:39One of my friends was saying the other day that, you know, if all the black people say they don't use, you know, cream on their body for a week, can you imagine the industries that are going to go out of business?
23:56You have to moisturize.
23:59I've experienced firsthand the pain of being unwelcome in church.
24:04And I know that many gay Christians are going through the same anguish.
24:07Wow, it looks good. Sharp for tonight.
24:1313 years ago, I started House of Rainbow, a group where LGBT Christians are welcome.
24:22We now have several groups across Africa and here in Britain.
24:27Tonight, I'm doing outreach work to spread the word that no one should have to choose between being gay and being Christian.
24:35And I'm taking these flyers with me tonight.
24:39Obviously, this will be a basis of my conversation with people to tell them about House of Rainbow.
24:45And that JY means so many things, including God adores you, God accepts you, God affirms you.
24:51A lot of things that you hear, particularly in a gay scene, when people want to talk about God is they often talk about the rejection, the rejection of the church.
25:00And not only does it hurt them, it hurts me to also hear that people feel rejected.
25:06I can even start by saying, do you like my rainbow laces? Something like that.
25:11And I can say, can I talk to you about Jesus?
25:13For those who are lesbians, gays and Christians, there is room for them within the body of Christ.
25:29There is room for them in scriptures to understand that God loves them just the way they are.
25:33Hi guys, how are you doing?
25:37Hello, how are you doing? Can I trust you in one of these?
25:48Thank you so much.
25:50There are many LGBT people who feel unwelcome in church, so my mission is to take God to them.
25:57I evangelize where queer people gather.
26:19We are talking about acronyms, because I came up with this one.
26:24I just did a lot of God adores you.
26:27Oh wow, okay.
26:28God affirms you, God accepts you, God admits you, God anoints you, and all the other positive things that have been GAY.
26:36That's really cool.
26:38Can I take one of these?
26:39Of course you can.
26:40That's really cool.
26:41Of course you can.
26:42So I mean, it's also about the journey of reconciling faith and sexuality, so do you have an experience?
26:47Yeah, so I stopped going to church when I was realising that I was GAY.
26:54What I was being taught in church was conflicting with how I was feeling inside, so I was like, I'm not going to go to church anymore because they're saying GAY is BRONS, etc, etc.
27:04So if you find a church that is inclusive and welcoming, would you go to that church?
27:07Yeah, I would, because I'm definitely open to it.
27:10Because I grew up for the first 17 years of my life as a Christian, so I'm definitely open to it.
27:16I'm definitely willing to learn, yeah.
27:18Honestly, I mean, it breaks my heart just to hear people say that they don't go to church because someone told them it's an abomination.
27:29Yeah.
27:30But I'm seriously telling you, it is actually not an abomination.
27:33And you can come to church and be yourself and give your talent, give your gift to the church.
27:39Yeah.
27:40And I also understand...
27:42Oh, sorry, it's really good to me.
27:45It hurts me so badly that people felt that they couldn't be themselves at church.
27:51Yeah.
27:52I mean, you should contact us.
27:53Yeah, I know.
27:54I mean, join us on social media as well and then we can talk again.
27:58Yeah.
27:59Honestly, yeah.
28:00Yeah, thanks for sharing.
28:01That's okay.
28:05There's still a lot of pain that people are experiencing or have experienced.
28:09Particularly as they struggle along with the journey of their sexuality and their faith.
28:30You know, I mean, I've had similar experiences myself where I felt I couldn't reconcile my faith and my sexuality.
28:37And honestly, in as much as I'm in that space, it just took me back to a time that I struggled as well.
28:45People told me, obviously off camera, that they're going to get married in two years' time.
28:50They're looking for a church where they can get married.
28:53But every call that they've made, even though those churches have had on their website saying, we are an inclusive and welcoming church.
29:01When they told them that they are a gay couple, they said no.
29:05And personally, I just feel this is so wrong.
29:08In a society that we believe we're making progress, we're not.
29:12So, in order to have that conversation, they've actually done a second review.
29:24There are many people fighting for change in the church.
29:26The second review is obviously successful.
29:28They've ticked the boxes.
29:30Congrats, okay.
29:31Jen Ozan is one of them.
29:36Are you nervous about me being a clergy member and standing against the church?
29:41Well, I think you've got to remember you're joining an institution.
29:44It's like joining a tennis club, isn't it?
29:45You've got to play by the rules.
29:46If you don't play by the rules, then there are penalties.
29:49And we might not agree with those penalties.
29:52I think they're grossly unfair, but they are the rules.
29:55I think a better way of changing them is to highlight how unfair and wrong they are.
29:59Otherwise, you could go and join another club, the Methodist Church, the Baptist Church,
30:04you know, the free church, who will accept you as, I mean, the Methodist Church in particular.
30:09You know, excellent at accepting gay, married, partnered priests and giving them full ordination rights.
30:16I think, you know, there are other clubs out there.
30:18For me personally, I have been able to align with it.
30:21But whether or not I can do that for the rest of my life, particularly if I'm falling in love with someone of my own gender
30:27and I really want to form a relationship, then that certainly will be another issue as well.
30:33I certainly want to get married, you know.
30:35I mean, I do love the idea of marriage.
30:37I love the whole thing about marriage.
30:39And I just want the church that I love and serve to be able to recognise that for me.
30:44Yeah, and celebrate that with us, isn't it?
30:46Yeah, I think people forget that actually what we want is to have our friends and family witness before God the commitment we want to make.
30:52I too want to get married if I ever find the right woman.
30:55So we're both focused on changing the rules.
30:58It's just kind of a question of how long it'll take.
31:00Do you think that I can change things by staying in the church or do you think I should leave?
31:05Well, no, I think we have to do what God's called us to.
31:08I think he's working in all sorts of levels within the church.
31:12But do you really want to put yourself under such constraints as celibacy and no marriage to do that?
31:19If that's what you feel God's doing, then calling you to, then go for it.
31:23But my question is, at what cost?
31:26While I've been on this journey, I've been hoping to get a meeting with Justin Welby, the Archbishop of Canterbury, to find out what the Church of England is doing to address the unequal treatment of LGBT clergy.
31:40But the Church has said it's not possible for me to meet him or any other bishop.
31:46They have told me that they are in the middle of a two-year listening exercise looking into their stance on LGBT inclusion.
31:55So far, we've produced about 80 academic papers.
31:59It's titled Living in Love and Faith, and its progress is being discussed today at General Synod, the National Assembly of the Church of England.
32:09The resources are not asking anyone to agree with one view or another, but we are asking the people of God to engage deeply and charitably with the views, experiences and perspectives of the other.
32:27I have my doubts about the Living in Love and Faith project.
32:31It's only been set up to produce a set of teaching resources, which won't be published until spring 2020.
32:38And there's no intention to change the Church's stance on same-sex marriage.
32:45The Church will not provide a bishop to speak to me, but one bishop has agreed to meet, outside of the official channels.
32:54It's great to see you. It's good to be in your town. Good to see you again.
32:57Alan Wilson, the Bishop of Buckingham, is one of the most forward-thinking priests in the Church of England.
33:04He's even written a book supporting same-sex marriage within the Church.
33:09He can't speak on behalf of the Church officially, but I hope he will give me his personal insight on whether the Church will change.
33:17If I may say, I've been ordained now almost 40 years, and I remember all some really good work that was done around 2008.
33:24There was a collection from around the Anglican Communion by different people reflecting on their experience of theology around human sexuality.
33:31We had the pilling report, we had the shared conversations, and every ten years we do this.
33:37So it's a bit of a kind of groundhog day.
33:39There's a consultation team that's been set up, you know, living in love and faith.
33:43From what you understand, do you think this will lead into some changes within the Church?
33:47Will it liberate the whole issues around the discrimination against the LGBT community?
33:53I hope it will help, and I wish the people doing it well, because I think they're good people and they're doing work in good faith.
33:59I think the whole way it's been set up is pretty loaded, because they've gone into the question on the basis that nothing is going to change in terms of doctrine.
34:09So they've really answered their own question before they asked it, really.
34:12Do you think it would be possible for me to walk down the aisle in the Church with my boyfriend to be married as a clergy?
34:18I very much hope that one day it will be.
34:23I think that churches who have gone down that path have not destroyed themselves at all, actually.
34:31And I think that, you know, if a life of stability and love and commitment is good for human flourishing,
34:39why would it not be good for you, because you're gay? I don't get that at all.
34:46Bishop, I mean, you've been very kind, you know, to have me in your home today.
34:50You know, has this been a very difficult issue for you to address, because not many bishops are able to do so?
34:57It was when I started thinking it through.
34:59I think it was one of those issues that you're afraid that it's going to lead you somewhere that will get you into trouble.
35:04But when I reflect on the trouble the Church has been for LGBTI friends, it's nothing.
35:13I don't get marginalised. I don't get beaten up. I don't, you know?
35:17And I think the more the Church gets its head and its heart around this one, the more authentic we will be as a Church.
35:26And the more we're afraid of it and fight shy, the less progress we can possibly make.
35:34Thank you so much. I'm getting so emotional. I want to say thank you so much, because that means so much.
35:39Seriously, that really means so much to me.
35:44And the reason I'm emotional is because of your conviction that, you know, it is possible for people like me, you know,
35:51even with my calling as a clergy to be, you know, welcomed into the Church and also be given the right to marry as well.
36:00And I want to say thank you. And I think there's just so many people that are so grateful for the sacrifices that you've made.
36:09And I'm certainly one of those.
36:11Thank you very much. I mean, I remember early on when I was thinking and praying my way through some of the Bible texts,
36:17the text that says all God's promises are yes and amen.
36:22And if they're not God's promises to you or anything less than that, then we've misunderstood God.
36:31Absolutely.
36:32That's why it matters. It's not kind of being nice to people.
36:35It's actually being real about our God, who is a God of love and a God of wholeness and a God of freedom.
36:41And that has to be real for you or it can't be real for me.
36:46Thank you so much.
36:48Thank you, TJ. It's great to see you.
36:50Yeah.
36:51Knowing that I have the support of powerful allies like Bishop Alan Wilson is hugely reassuring for me
36:59and others like me in the LGBT community waiting to be accepted by the Church.
37:05These are people's lives that we're talking about. Real people and real concerns.
37:11And they should be thinking about the better outcome that will include people that will allow them to have the blessing of the Church and the blessing of their community.
37:21The urgency of inclusion is now.
37:29I know things won't change overnight, especially in an institution as old and as powerful as the Church of England.
37:39History tells me that change is inevitable.
37:47But will it come soon enough for me to marry the man who I love in the Church that I love?
37:57I'm still not sure.
38:00I know I am not too gay for God.
38:04But perhaps I am too gay for this religious institution.
38:09CHOIR SINGS
38:21CHOIR SINGS
38:26CHOIR SINGS
38:56CHOIR SINGS
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