Speaking on FRANCE 24 in the wake of the assassination of Charlie Kirk, Jonathan Katz, Fellow in Governance Studies at Brookings in Washington and Co-Editor of the 2025 Democracy Playbook, says that "anybody fanning the flames is not helpful at this moment and what we need to hear from leaders, whether it's President Trump or the private sector, is to hear about how do we solve these problems and work together".
Visit our website: http://www.france24.com
Like us on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/FRANCE24.English
Follow us on Twitter: https://twitter.com/France24_en
00:00Reaction and revelation continued to pour in after the death of U.S. conservative commentator
00:08Charlie Kirk on Wednesday. The 31-year-old was shot in the neck while speaking at an event at
00:13a college in Utah. His death sparked outrage and distress across the aisle as Donald Trump
00:18announced Kirk would receive a posthumous Presidential Medal of Freedom. The sniper,
00:22who inflicted the fatal single shot, is believed to have jumped off a roof and fled into a
00:27neighborhood. Despite the release of photos by officials, the suspect is yet to be identified,
00:32while a $100,000 reward has been offered for information. Much is still unclear 24 hours later,
00:38but what remains true is that political violence in the United States is not a new phenomenon,
00:43as Solange Mujar explains.
00:47There have been eras of political violence in the United States before.
00:51Just look to the deaths of Abraham Lincoln or John F. Kennedy.
00:55It appears as though something has happened in the motorcade group.
00:59But of late, the list is tragically long.
01:03There are the failed assassination attempts towards Donald Trump.
01:07Shot at a campaign event in July 2024, he survived with a minor ear injury.
01:12Two months later, at a golf course, Secret Service managed to impede another attempt.
01:17Reuters has identified 300 cases of political violence between the January 6, 2021 riots,
01:23where multiple people died, and Trump's second presidential election, the most significant surge
01:29since the 1970s. And such acts have continued.
01:35This past June, two state lawmakers and their spouses were shot in Minnesota.
01:39Melissa Hortman and her husband were killed.
01:42Senator John Hoffman, also a Democrat, and his wife survived.
01:45Beyond these murders, there have also been a slew of acts of violence in recent years.
01:50Pennsylvania Governor John Shapiro's residence was firebombed in April.
01:54Three years ago, the husband of then House Speaker Nancy Pelosi was beaten with a hammer in his home.
02:00Representative Steve Scalise was shot in 2017.
02:04And before him, Representative Gabby Giffords was shot in the head in 2011.
02:08In a statement, she wrote of the risks that such political violence caused to society.
02:14Democratic societies will always have political disagreements,
02:18but we must never allow America to become a country that confronts those disagreements with violence.
02:24Perpetrated by individuals on the left and on the right,
02:28the mentally disturbed and the radicalised.
02:30The issue of political violence is exacerbated by extreme rhetoric,
02:35ever-divisive politics, and an abundance of firearms in the United States.
02:41Let's dive into the detail now with Jonathan Katz,
02:43Fellow in Governance Studies at Brookings in Washington
02:45and co-editor of the 2025 Democracy Playbook.
02:49Welcome to the show, Jonathan. Thanks so much for joining us.
02:52Obviously, our focus right now is on Charlie Kirk,
02:54but his shooting is part of a growing trend that we've seen since the insurrection in 2021.
03:01Are politicians more than ever seen as legitimate targets?
03:08No. There's no excuse and no space for political violence in the United States.
03:17I think, as you pointed out, this has been a challenge in the U.S.
03:21You know, throughout our history, we see upticks in violence,
03:26but also increased polarization and concerns, including from Americans, about this very issue.
03:32So there's no space.
03:34And I think it's really important, as we're seeing for most political leaders,
03:39responsible statements denouncing what's taken place,
03:44holding those accountable for acts of political violence.
03:48And I think we have to think about political violence beyond just physical.
03:53We live in a world of increased levels of harassment, intimidation, and threats online.
04:00And those aren't even being calculated in sort of the number of incidents that you see.
04:05So it's an incredibly challenging moment for U.S. politics.
04:08And this is really where we need leaders across the United States to come together
04:13to say this isn't normal, this isn't acceptable.
04:16And we heard that from Gabby Giffords.
04:18We heard it from the governor of Utah, governor of California, and many others.
04:25Instead of, you know, those who may be out there trying to fan the flames,
04:29I think most politicians are saying the right thing.
04:32You talked about that rhetoric and how what manifests from these online spaces,
04:40or just in terms of what people are saying, to the physical, to these assassinations.
04:46How do we go on to then securitize the space which we're living in?
04:50How do we prevent that from actually manifesting itself that way?
04:53The first thing it starts with leadership, you know, and this includes from the president
05:01down to state and local officials, because what you're also seeing is when you have,
05:07even in the case of Minnesota, where I think lawmakers on both sides of the aisle
05:11were quite right in terms of responding to that violence, to those assassinations,
05:17one attempt, but one that was certainly led to the deaths of a former state senator.
05:23But you also had leaders that were fanning the flames, and you can't have that.
05:28So as long as we have some people still out there, including elected leaders,
05:32fanning flames, it can lead to a continuation of violence.
05:37And it doesn't go to the issue of how do you solve these challenges,
05:41both at the local state level and nationally.
05:44And so we need to act responsibly, but we also need to look to the tech companies
05:49to play a role in content moderation.
05:52And we need to be asking more from different parts of our societies to step up and play a role.
06:00And this violence is completely unacceptable, whether it's online, physical or psychological threats
06:07to election officials, to judges, to private sector.
06:12This is bleeding everywhere.
06:14Well, you mentioned those tech spaces.
06:16Of course, we can't mention this without Elon Musk, the ex-owner.
06:21He has immediately gone on to blame the left for this.
06:24Donald Trump also went on with a very similar turn of phrase.
06:30It's not helpful, is it?
06:33What's really important right now is that leaders are clear about addressing this threat,
06:40this challenge right now, holding those accountable, but also talking about how do we find the space
06:47in the civic space across our country at a moment of division to be able to have conversations
06:53about difficult issues without resorting to violence.
06:57So anybody who is fanning the flames is not helpful at this moment.
07:04And what we need to hear from leaders, whether it's President Trump or even private sector,
07:10whether it's Mr. Musk, is to hear about how do we solve these problems, work together,
07:15and build a space where we can have these conversations.
07:20So finger-pointing is not helpful.
07:22And as you alluded to in laying out acts of political violence in U.S. history, even recently,
07:29it's coming from different directions in the U.S.
07:33It's not one political party or the other political party.
07:37These are individuals, and we need to work together to address these challenges.
07:41So any division right now is unwelcome and counterproductive to what we need to do.
07:48As an American, you speak to people on the streets every day, and you live and breathe it.
07:55How polarized is society right now?
07:57Have you ever known it to be this way?
07:59And do you think that that is a leading cause with what we're seeing?
08:05Polarization, obviously, it's quite high right now, but we've seen it in the U.S.
08:09What I want to talk about is some of the commonalities.
08:13When you poll Americans about support for democracy, overwhelmingly, Republicans and Democrats
08:19want to have a strong democracy, safe communities.
08:24There's common themes of what people want and see, but there's clearly a division,
08:29and divisions about how they see this country, the issues of concern of the day,
08:34whether you have legitimate discussions about immigration, to issues of gun control, to reproductive rights.
08:43These have been challenging issues for quite some time in the U.S. political system.
08:48We do have division, and that has been the case for quite some time, too.
08:53Just looking at the polling numbers and looking at the outcome of the last presentations,
09:00where margins have been razor thin.
09:01So to say that historic levels, maybe not the case, but it's high.
09:07And it's a challenge to get Americans to come together, especially if you have fans flaming rhetoric
09:17that divides people rather than brings them together when you have a moment like Charlie Cook, Charlie Kirk.
09:23And, you know, the President of the United States needs to play a role as the unifier of this nation, not a divider.
09:32We are going back to Charlie Kirk, and obviously we are still coming to terms with what has happened.
09:39And the country at large, it feels a bit like a pressure cooker.
09:43But if the current trends continue, what do you think the U.S. is going to look like in even five years' time at this rate?
09:50I think there's, you know, the U.S. obviously is, this is a resilient country.
09:59We've seen Americans come together in the past, dealing with some very difficult issues.
10:06Today is the anniversary of 9-11.
10:09And I look back at the leadership then of George W. Bush, who unified the country after the most horrific attack, you know, since World War II on the country.
10:21Thousands of deaths in the United States on that day impact globally as well.
10:27And I'm reminded about how he stood at the World Trade Center, brought Americans together, and also pushed back against any threats to groups within the United States that might be threatened, including the Muslim American community.
10:41My hope is that we can regather that spirit of commonality and unity to work together.
10:47So I don't have the crystal ball of what it will look like in five years.
10:51It's what we hope it will look like, which is a strong democracy where communities are safe from the type of political violence that we're seeing, but that we're working together.
11:03We're reaching what we call across the aisle, across community, to have conversations about tough issues and working to resolve them.
11:09Is Charlie Kirk's death that unifier, or do you think more of a divisive issue, and especially how the security services are going to be reacting now?
11:22I think it can be a unifying moment if political leaders want it to be.
11:29If political leaders decide that they want to use it for other purposes, then you can further divide the public.
11:37And it also matters greatly the response from the federal government to this.
11:44And, of course, already we've seen over the last several months action taken, but that many are concerned about some support.
11:53So we're going to have to see.
11:57The most important thing is that there are resources available.
12:02There's strategies.
12:03There's local, state, and national-level figures that are ready to work together, faith-based communities.
12:10The United States is a big country with a lot of capacity and a lot of goodwill.
12:16But if the administration that's in place wants to push it in a different direction and not towards that common goal that we want, a safe and secure democracy, it can be a challenging moment.
12:29And we all hope that's not the case.
12:31And we hope that this is an opportunity to bring Americans together rather than tear them apart.
12:37On that message, Jonathan Katz, thank you so much for joining us here on the World Roundup Show on France 24 and Apropos.
12:43That was Jonathan Katz, Fellow in Governance Studies at Brookings in Washington.
Be the first to comment