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00:00A recent report by SmartDNA reveals that one in four men are not the biological father of their child,
00:07most especially the firstborn child.
00:09This report presents a decrease from what we have last year, 25% this year, compared to 27%.
00:16However, still quite revealing and something to talk about on paternity fraud in Nigeria.
00:23I am Olu Kaode, Olu Mu, you are your host for today.
00:25And yes, welcome to Guardian Talks, where we bring you intriguing,
00:28and of course, you know, there are discussions that matters to our society.
00:32I am not alone in the studio today, and yes, when I'm back, I'm going to be introducing our guests
00:36that we are going to be talking together on this particular one, paternity fraud,
00:41and let's, you know, discuss together what are the challenges, what is the cost,
00:45and how can we navigate this one.
00:47A quick break, and yes, I'll be right back.
00:49Stick around.
00:58So, yes, welcome back, viewers at home, and thank you for being there.
01:02Yes, it's Guardian Talks, Guardian Talks, and yes, like I said, I'm not alone in the house today.
01:06I've got pharmacist Jonah Okoti in the house.
01:10Thank you for coming back.
01:11You know, it's good to have you, as always.
01:13That's the CEO of Engraced Pharmacy, and also the former secretary, ACP, in Lagos.
01:20It's always a pleasure to have you in the studio.
01:22So, we are looking at a paternity fraud.
01:26Before we, you know, jump into the discussion fully, you know, we look at DNA testing,
01:32and why is it necessary?
01:34And, you know, before we came live here, we were discussing, you know, behind the scenes,
01:39and we were able to look at some of these things.
01:41Why is it even necessary that people want to do DNA, you know, testing?
01:46You always want to do DNA testing where there's a need to a certain paternity or ancestry.
01:59So, which, of course, most of the time has to do with what you call inheritance issues,
02:09and then where you also have trust issues.
02:13So, the man is in doubt about, are you sure this is my child?
02:18He's beginning to see features that doesn't seem to, that look strange to what is seen in his wife
02:25and his wife's family, and as well as himself.
02:28So, he begins to raise questions.
02:31The other thing will also be for medical reasons.
02:33There are conditions where you want to check to be sure, okay, is this thing in the family?
02:42Is it related to some training?
02:44So, you want to trace the genes.
02:47Okay, so, that's why you want to do that.
02:49So, and like the report said, for some persons, they did it for jackpot reasons.
02:55Yeah, people who want to travel.
02:56So, those who want to travel.
02:57So, sometimes, some of the embassies will require that you, there's proof,
03:03not that you go over there and begin to make a scene.
03:05Yeah.
03:06So, and embarrass everyone.
03:08So, those are some of the reasons why people want to do this.
03:11All right.
03:11Thank you so much, our pharmacist, O. Cotier.
03:13We have established, you know, reasons why people may want to, you know, do DNA testing.
03:19But, the question now is based on the recent revelation by SmartDNA.
03:24SmartDNA, we know they are one of the top, you know, when it comes to DNA testing.
03:28Yes.
03:29So, last year, from July, June 2023 to June 2024, we have 27% negative of those who came to their facilities to get this done.
03:40But, this year, we have 25% from June, July 2024 to June 2025.
03:45So, of course, a decrease of 2%, but all the same, it's still significant, revealing that one in four men are not actually the biological father of their child.
03:58Now, and something also struck my attention in the report that this majorly affects first-born child.
04:05Now, what can we, what is the correlation between this?
04:09A first-born child, not being the biological father, you know, one in four men.
04:14What could be the cause of this, most importantly?
04:17If you ask me, I would say, social pressure.
04:21You find a lot of women used, they used to see that pregnancy is one of the things you can use to tie a man down.
04:33Those are those days, not now.
04:35I still think now.
04:36It works?
04:37If it doesn't work, then this report, this report is validating that.
04:43So, it's that, because as much as the narrative out there is that the average man is not responsible, but there are a lot of men who are responsible.
04:53So, the moment a man feels that, oh, I am the one owner of this pregnancy, the narrative changes.
05:04It takes responsibility.
05:05So, it takes that responsibility.
05:06So, what that has shown is that a lot of the men are taking responsibility when they were probably told, this is your child.
05:17So, there's no way they will know.
05:20So, now the tests is what has helped them to know that you are not the father.
05:26So, which has brought, I mean, she brought back the, what every one of us knows, that it is the mother who can tell you who the father of the baby she has born is.
05:41Always.
05:42Always.
05:42So, which is, and this also brings home the issue of our justice system.
05:51If the table were to be turned and it was the men who had been accused of this thing, all they would have broken loose, it would be, oh, let's go to the courts.
06:02So, that the men will be made to pay for this, pay for that.
06:06Sorry to cut you here from that one.
06:09You know, talking about the legal system, Nigeria as a country, there is no law per se that governs or, you know, punishes paternity fraud, you know, in that sense.
06:20Unlike some countries in Africa, like South Africa, we know they have an established law.
06:24But now in Nigeria, does this recent report, you know, we've, we've been seeing it now quite all right, you know, from some years now, it's, it's alarming.
06:36And, um, it looks like governments are not really that bothered about this.
06:40Shouldn't we be looking at bringing up a legal framework to combat some of these things?
06:45Who is government?
06:46Government is you and I.
06:47Government is made up of the men and women who are part of the persons who are who this test affects or involves.
06:54Because, because, um, DNA test is not, um, your average 10,000, uh, test you go and do.
07:04So, for you to be able to do DNA test, you must be able to afford it.
07:08Uh, so, because it's expensive.
07:10So, what that tells me is the class of people.
07:15It even tells me about the class of people involved.
07:17Okay, now, sorry.
07:18What if we now have a structure that mandates DNA testing, let me say, right from birth of these children?
07:24Could this also help?
07:26Or, you know, that's what I was saying, you know, government.
07:29It may not necessarily help.
07:32Because, um, whether we like it or not, for reasons best known to everybody.
07:38I mean, different aspects of society, including royalty, um, you find that, um, nobody, sometimes you don't want to ask questions.
07:50Okay.
07:51Or you don't want to know.
07:52Just, just let things, yes.
07:55Just let things, don't ask, don't know.
07:58Uh, but going back to the issue of the criminality of it, I think it is pertinent that the government, um, makes laws, criminalizes paternity fraud.
08:09Yeah, it is.
08:10So that, um, people don't get away with it.
08:13Because it takes a lot.
08:15Emotionally.
08:15A lot.
08:16Resources.
08:16A lot.
08:17A lot.
08:17So, and, um, if care is not taken, we'll begin to have more crimes.
08:22Because people begin to take law into their hands to do things that, um, we all could avoid or prevent by doing the needful in the first place.
08:32Now, you know, talking about the law now, uh, you know, recently as well, we have a law now that says if you, probably in a relationship and all that, then you send the money.
08:41Send money.
08:42Exactly.
08:42Transport.
08:42We have word that will happen with a fee that would you?
08:45If, as, um, innocuous as that can be addressed, can, yes, can have a legal implication, how much more?
08:57Something of this magnitude.
08:59Yeah.
09:00Because it's lives that are involved.
09:02And if we are not to even look at the lives of the, um, what's it called?
09:07The lives of the adults involved.
09:08Of the lives of the children.
09:10Because it throws them into a lot of trauma.
09:14A lot.
09:15A lot.
09:16For that, for the, for the, I mean, for the reasons of them as well as the innocent ones, let's, um, let's, um, make, create the legal framework for, to address this ill.
09:27So, um, well, thank you so much, uh, pharmacist Jonah.
09:30Uh, still talking about, you know, paternity fraud.
09:33Uh, we can relate this to, uh, also the, the divorce rates, uh, rates, rather, that we have in the, in the country.
09:40Although we know that most of the, uh, divorcees and all that in Nigeria, most of the time do not report some of these cases.
09:47Exactly.
09:48Except for us.
09:49But at the same time, a report from 2023, uh, uh, per divorce initiative reviews that, uh, we also have a, uh, uh, uh,
09:57troubling number that shows high level of divorce rates, uh, rates in the country.
10:03Uh, can we also link this, uh, paternity fraud to that?
10:07It may not be unconnected.
10:08Or there could be some other, other, uh, social titans.
10:10It may not be unconnected because it's about trust issues.
10:14First and foremost, what brings two people together is, um, love.
10:19The love, we say.
10:20Yes, love.
10:21And then, of course, on that is, I mean, built on trust.
10:24Um, so the moment trust begins to go out the, once trust leaves, everything else goes out
10:30the, out the door.
10:31So, if I don't trust you, why should I be with you?
10:35Hmm.
10:35Very important.
10:36So, we need to begin to.
10:37Yeah.
10:38So, um, and, um, you also be of society.
10:42Wow.
10:42That's why it's not left.
10:43I mean, for, in Africa, particularly in Nigeria, at least I've traveled around the different societies.
10:51You'll find, I don't know of any tribe in Nigeria today, the average Nigerian tribe marries, um,
11:00their words to the families.
11:02Hmm.
11:02Hmm.
11:03The ones they can vouch for.
11:05Not, not, not just for what they can vouch for.
11:06If you are going to marry, nobody goes to marry by themselves.
11:10Of course, the family is always carried along.
11:12The family is, the first thing is that, is engagement.
11:16And what is engagement in its, uh, local parents is more making way in Yoruba and in
11:23Ibo to the same.
11:24So, is the families getting to know each other.
11:26Hmm.
11:26Hmm.
11:26So, if that is what it is, where the families are involved, then we need to be careful to
11:33ensure that we don't take things for granted because there are so many lives at stake here.
11:40Hmm.
11:40So, it's, it's, it's, it's something we should take seriously.
11:44Wow.
11:44Okay.
11:45It might not necessarily be the, the major cause, but of course we know it's also a contributing
11:49factor.
11:50It's a contributing factor.
11:51Okay.
11:51So, now on the part of the women, you know, they might not want to agree with us, but this,
11:57like you mentioned something earlier that it is the woman, we all know that actually,
12:00that knows who the father is.
12:02So, if you know who the father is, why, why, why, what's the, what's the reason for, you
12:08know, bringing it from someone else or forcing it on someone else?
12:12I, I, I think this, this is quite not good enough on the part of the ladies who do such
12:17things.
12:18I think, I think we are, we are doing, um, we are just, uh, whitewashing it.
12:24Hmm.
12:25It is what it is.
12:25It's criminality.
12:27It is.
12:27So, it's, it's, uh, uh, what's you, it's, it's lies and it rests on the individual.
12:35So, it's about character.
12:37It's about standard.
12:38Yes.
12:38It's about character.
12:39So, if, or you feel maybe, maybe at that point is for, for some monetary or social benefit,
12:46or you think, ah, this man is probably, probably has a better standing.
12:50Oh, so he will be able to take care of this child.
12:51He said he will be able to take care of, okay.
12:52But then, you owe him that right to tell him.
12:57The truth.
12:57The truth.
12:58There are instances where men know, okay, I'm not the owner of this.
13:02And they are cool with it.
13:02And they are cool with it.
13:02Yeah, we have it, yes.
13:04And they have taken responsibility.
13:05Yeah.
13:05Okay, fine.
13:06No problem.
13:07I'll, I'll bear responsibility.
13:09But when you don't tell that person, let us call it what it is.
13:13It is criminality.
13:14It is a fraud.
13:14Yes, it is.
13:14So, and it must be dealt with it as so.
13:17So, if not, it will be the building in society that gives room for all manners of things.
13:23All forms of things.
13:24Wow.
13:25Thank you so much.
13:26It's been an interesting conversation.
13:28And, you know, we might not be able to exhaust everything concerning paternative fraud.
13:33Now, on the part of the, of the victim here, the men, the men, you know, what can be the, the Sukkot, or what will I say now?
13:42You know, what can be the, the, I don't know how to put it.
13:48When you find out something like that, now that we do not even have a functional or functioning legal framework that punishes such, what can you do?
13:59You know?
14:00Interestingly, it just hits me now.
14:02It's, um, in a way, speaks to what we talked about the last time, mental health.
14:09Hmm.
14:10Hmm.
14:10So.
14:11Of course.
14:12It's going to have a toll on that.
14:13And you see, it rests, it won't rest.
14:15Straight up.
14:16Yes, it rests on that because, um, and it speaks to the need for a robust, uh, mental health system.
14:24So where you have, uh, institutions or systems where people can, uh, patronize psychotherapists, um, so, um, go for counseling because it will take a lot for a man to be able to contain himself.
14:45It's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's discovering that, oh, all this, not just a child you have always known, the, it's, it's the, it's a stab in the back.
14:55And, yeah, yeah.
14:56And not, not many men can handle it right.
14:59If care is not taken, some will just take the line to the end and do something stupid.
15:03So it is for us to be able to put in place measures that, okay, even if that is the case, people don't do something stupid.
15:12So I am sure at the DNA facilities, there are support systems that they will provide to give counseling, to guide the people, to be able to, to navigate some of those things.
15:24So, but after that exercise is to make sure that it is continuous.
15:29Wow.
15:30It is not just, uh, left there.
15:32Okay.
15:33Um, I know that interesting part of the report says, um, about 46% of people, you know,
15:42came into the, uh, what's it called?
15:44Oh, to the facility here.
15:46Facilities are Yoruba men, then about 31, 31, uh, evil men, while I was, uh, interestingly about 1.2%.
15:56You know, looking at, um, these disparities in the, the percentage rate of men who are willing to do paternity tests.
16:04What does this tell us about, uh, you know, is it about, um, a race or a particular region and all that?
16:11Um, if you ask me, I think it has to do more with, uh, uh, without trying to sound, uh, um, like a discriminatory or something, but it is what it is.
16:26Um, the, amongst us as Nigerians, um, I am a Norobo man, but we all know that the Yorubas, when it comes to sophistication, uh, have that, you'll give it to them.
16:41Um, so there's a certain level of awareness, uh, amongst the Yorubas, enlightenment, uh, compared to the other tribes.
16:52Uh, and then for the Aousa people, you want to put, trace that back to religion.
16:58Uh, so for them, most of their things rest on, so if it's God's will, fine, if it's not God's will, so, so you, you may not be able to eliminate some of those, uh, uh, uh, things there.
17:13Okay. And then, uh, in terms of culture too, um, I'll say the level of exposure, um, for us as a people differs.
17:27Um, you, you find the, the average Western woman is more independent and free compared to the other tribes.
17:41The other tribes, yes, the counterpart, the Igbo woman, uh, like I said, one needs to be careful here because things can be taken out of line.
17:50Out of proportion, yeah.
17:51Yeah, so, but you find the average Igbo man is, well, for the, those who are working, who are businessmen, uh, who we see every day, you'll find that they are either in the marketplaces and their wives are with them.
18:06So, when will she have time to go and be doing something like that? Or they are probably at home taking care of the children.
18:12But for the Westerner, you find she's working. Your husband too is working. So the, in terms of exposure, I think the lines of exposure is more for the Western woman than for her Eastern counterpart.
18:28And then for, uh, uh, Northern counterpart, at least the Northern up seems to have practices more of the harem thing than compared to the other people.
18:38So, so those are some of, so those cultural differences might explain some of these things, but, uh, this is just a small percentage.
18:48Of course, of course.
18:49Or to go out there, uh, before we know what the real statistics is.
18:53Yes. Well, it's, it's, it's quite, uh, you know, something that, uh, I don't know how to express it more than, we just have to create, uh, a legal system that combats this.
19:07You know, paternity fraud shouldn't be allowed to be, like you said, we just know, and, uh, we feel like, oh, uh, it's good.
19:14You know, we, it's takes a lot of emotional strength, a lot of stress on, you know, on the person, on the victim.
19:22But now, let me now bring it down.
19:24Are we now saying that, that we have these high, or let me say, okay, increase.
19:30Is it an increase? No, not an increase, rather.
19:32Well, we have this percentage in paternity fraud.
19:35Does it mean that the, uh, what we flip things now, the women, uh, are not victims in one way or the other.
19:43Like, you know, I don't think I've had more cases about maybe mortality issue or maybe something like that.
19:49Are we saying it mostly affects, uh, men?
19:53You know, are we saying that, uh, women are the ones who, who most of the times maybe do something like this, not the men.
20:01I'm just looking at a scenario like that.
20:03Um, I would like to get your question clear.
20:06It's not clear enough.
20:07Yeah, what I'm trying to say is, you know, we, we, we have more of, okay, paternity fraud, paternity fraud, you know, on the part of the women not being truthful to their partner.
20:16What if it's the other way around, you know?
20:19Is it, can we say maybe because women are not going for the test or something like that?
20:24I don't, I don't get it.
20:27You are the one who carries the baby.
20:29You are the one who brings out the baby.
20:30So there is no need for that.
20:32You already know.
20:33So there is nothing that can come out.
20:35The only thing you can speak to will be as, um, examples abound out there.
20:44Um, you've had cases where samples have been missed, I mean mixed.
20:50Um, um.
20:51Maybe artificial insemination.
20:53Yeah, we're doing artificial insemination.
20:55Maybe they carry one person's sperm too.
20:57For the wrong egg.
20:58For the wrong egg and all that.
21:00Or even babies.
21:01I remember when I was growing up, there used to be a saying something like, uh, magic commerce or something like mercy or something like that.
21:09Okay.
21:10You know, so as in, it happens.
21:12Even there was a recent case where I think a nurse or someone was, one of the birth attendants or so, was accused of switching babies.
21:22Wow.
21:23You know, uh, so I mean swapping babies.
21:25Um, so you have cases like that, but this has small, this is a small fraction.
21:30Out of.
21:31Compared to what it is.
21:33Um, I, I will still say it still comes back to the mental thing.
21:37Because if the mental support was really there, I don't think the percentage will be as high as this.
21:46So right from the home, there'll have been things to help the person to be able to handle, to know that.
21:54Okay.
21:55Okay.
21:56I'm pregnant.
21:57Okay.
21:58Even if this person doesn't take responsibility, there's a certain level of social structure in place to help me to be able to take care of my baby.
22:05So that pressure to want to fit into society, uh, will not be there.
22:10Be there.
22:11And that's why if you compare the statistics to what you have in the Western world.
22:15Okay.
22:16You will find it's not that high.
22:18Because, um, besides the mental health system that is there, they have a social system.
22:24Yeah.
22:25A social structure in place, which is able to provide for, for the women to be able to, uh, meet their responsibilities.
22:32So, uh, that's really diminishes the tension and the pressure, uh, on them.
22:38And of course, um, culturally too, the pressure to want to hide yourself is not there.
22:47So here you become pregnant and you ask, who's your father?
22:50Yeah.
22:51You don't know.
22:52You don't know.
22:53It's a big...
22:54So sometimes too, I think there may be some other reasons that we don't know.
22:58Maybe some of the women are victims of rape.
23:00Yes.
23:01That's another thing.
23:02Yeah.
23:03So maybe some of those women are victims of rape.
23:04That's another thing.
23:05And unfortunately, because they could not bring themselves up to be able to come, I mean, to open, come out to say, okay, this is what happened to me.
23:13Yeah.
23:14Um, they rather, like they say, somebody who is abused now, abusing another.
23:20So it's, that's why we really need to have that system in place to address some of these things.
23:25Thank you so much, our pharmacist Jonah.
23:27It's been an awesome time with you here.
23:29On the, on the last note, as we buy out of the studio now, what would be, uh, your, you know, advocacy to the policymakers, you know, in ensuring that we have, uh, you know, this issue of paternity fraud being legally, you know, criminalized?
23:48Um, it's about the social order.
23:51It's society.
23:53Right from when we're kids, you, you find when we're children, like they say, the African child has many parents.
24:00Yeah, of course.
24:01But today, the African child has a single parent.
24:04You don't even know your neighbor.
24:06Um.
24:07So now, it's, uh, your own.
24:09So, and unfortunately, those social, uh, structures have been eroded.
24:16So, uh, we need to go back to that.
24:19Yes.
24:20Yes, we want to say justice.
24:21It's fine to talk about justice, but I think we should, alongside that, we should also be talking about the, uh, social, uh, framework.
24:29We must put in place a social system that ensures that everyone is well taken care of.
24:36That, to me, will reduce the need to want to dump on someone else.
24:42Another person's child.
24:43Yes.
24:44Well, thank you once again, our pharmacist Jonah Okutie, uh, the CEO of Engraced Pharmacy.
24:50Thank you all, you know, for always, uh, you know, yielding to the call to be on the show.
24:54And, uh, that will be the size of our package today on Guardian Talks.
24:58We've discussed extensively on paternity fraud and, you know, some of these things, courses and measures, and how the victims, the men, can navigate, uh, these issues.
25:08And, you know, we're also advocating that the Nigerian, uh, you know, uh, system can, uh, find a way in the legal framework to ensure that, uh, justice is, is served.
25:20Uh, and this will no longer be the case as it may be.
25:23All right.
25:24So thank you.
25:25Like I said, uh, for being there.
25:26And yes, uh, until next time, we'll come with you again on Guardian Talks.
25:29I am Olu Kaode.
25:30Olumi, you are your host for today.
25:31And yes, until then, I'm leaving you in the hands of God.
25:34Yes.
25:35You've been good.
25:36And yes.
25:37See you.
25:38Bye.
25:39Bye.
25:40Bye.
25:41Bye.
25:42Bye.
25:43Bye.
25:44Bye.
25:45Bye.
25:46Bye.
25:47Bye.
25:48Bye.
25:49Bye.
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