00:00Hello and welcome back to the 77% Street Debate.
00:09My name is Edith Kimani and this week we are in one of my favorite places in Africa, Lagos,
00:14Nigeria.
00:15Now in this country, miracles have been known to happen.
00:18The dead have risen and diseases that have yet to have a cure have actually been cured.
00:24But these so-called men and women of God, the miracle workers, are under the spotlight
00:29because they might just be scamming people.
00:31And so today we are here to ask, does Nigeria have a problem of scam profits?
00:36Who better to answer this question for me than some fellow Nigerians.
00:39I know you want to say something.
00:40I'm going to come to you.
00:41It's already getting heated here.
00:43But I want to start with you, Olatunde, because, you know, I asked a very big question.
00:48I want you to answer it for me.
00:50Does Nigeria have a problem of scam pastors or scam faith perpetrators?
00:55We have a problem of fake miracles.
00:58You know, a lot of people have lost their faith because of such.
01:01They have lost their money.
01:02It is not an issue of individual issue alone.
01:06It's a social issue.
01:07It's a general issue.
01:08It's a national issue.
01:09It's something that needs a lot of attention.
01:10Social media is talking about it.
01:12Everybody knows about it.
01:13However, it doesn't mean that we don't have people who are genuine people who are doing
01:17the right thing and also people having their miracles, real miracles there.
01:23All right.
01:24We have Pastor Oluwase here who claims that he's one of the genuine pastors, one of the
01:28genuine people who's leading people into faith.
01:31How does one tell the difference?
01:33As a matter of fact, if there is no fake, you can't get the word the original.
01:39For instance, I'm sorry, please repeat that again.
01:41You're saying there cannot be an original unless it's a fake?
01:44There is no original.
01:46There can't be fake.
01:47In Nigeria, the highest denomination is $1,000.
01:51Can I give you fake $2,000 note?
01:53You will reject it immediately.
01:54So the fact that we are fake pastors is the major evidence that we have original pastor.
02:01Let's just come back to the facts, right?
02:03How do you distinguish between the original and the fake?
02:07Why should we trust you when you say you're a genuine pastor, for example?
02:10By their deeds.
02:11We know.
02:12If somebody tells you that he wants to pray for you, you should bring money, money for
02:15your daily life.
02:16It's a fake pastor.
02:17Okay.
02:18So you're saying that the financial motivation is one key sign that this person might be
02:21fake.
02:22All right.
02:23Let's go back to the second because we're hearing that it's very easy to tell a fake
02:26pastor from a genuine one based on their actions, but you didn't have that choice.
02:30Did you tell me a little bit about your story?
02:32I'll hold the microphone for you.
02:33There is no way you can identify a real pastor from a fake pastor.
02:40I am a person with disability.
02:42I have visual impairment.
02:44I cannot see.
02:45The first thing my parents thought of was to seek a spiritual solution to the challenge
02:51instead of seeking medical solution, which could have probably provided a lasting solution
02:58to the problem.
02:59And that led us to many traumatic betrayal in the hands of all these so-called prophets.
03:05Are you angry at your parents for this?
03:08My parents were desperate.
03:09Being the first child, they never wanted their child to become visually impaired.
03:15Okay.
03:16Thank you, David.
03:17I'll come back to you in a short while.
03:18I just want to introduce Fortune here for a second because you're a believer, right?
03:23So how does it feel when you hear David say that perhaps the spiritual guides, the spiritual
03:28leaders might have betrayed him and his family?
03:31It has to do with your faith first.
03:33You don't have to assume that because this person is a man of God, he's like an assistant
03:38Jesus or something.
03:39No.
03:40Right.
03:41You have to believe inside of you that yes, I can, I am, I can receive my healing.
03:45I can be healed first before you can get that healing.
03:49But is it not a little bit of victim blaming?
03:52Because a lot of the time the people who fall prey to these false miracles are very desperate.
03:56You should always try to not expose yourself.
04:00Let me use that word.
04:01When you put yourself out there as a vulnerable person, like desperate, so many people would
04:06like take advantage of you.
04:07I want to come to you because you belong to an organization that's the inter-religious
04:13is it the council?
04:14So is it my fault then if I go to a pastor who uses the same faith, the same chapters,
04:20the same verses to manipulate me?
04:23Is that my fault?
04:25It's not your fault.
04:27It is not the fault of Christianity.
04:30So whose fault is it?
04:31There are wolves among the sheep.
04:35I'm sorry, you're skirting around the issue.
04:37No, no, no.
04:38I asked you a very direct question.
04:39So who is responsible?
04:41You, the person that went to the pastor, you are not responsible.
04:44And as well, you are responsible for not using the spirit of God to design through yourself
04:49within you that this is a fake pastor.
04:52How do you identify a fake prophet or a fake pastor?
04:55Number one is through their teachings.
04:58But they're using the same Christian Bible that you're preaching.
05:02If you have the spirit of God in you, you will be able to decipher.
05:06Okay.
05:07Okay.
05:08Fortune, fortune, fortune is about to beat me, please.
05:13He said it already.
05:15You need to understand that the healing is from God.
05:20The pastor is just, you know, like a, like a guide.
05:24I'm completely with you up until there.
05:27When the law is broken, when there's people, when people have been manipulated and their
05:31lives have been thrown in shambles, how then should we hold those people responsible?
05:36Okay, fine.
05:37I mean, you can always like, maybe go to the police or something.
05:40I don't know.
05:41Do the right thing.
05:42I don't know.
05:43Damilola is laughing.
05:44Let me, why are you laughing Damilola when she suggests that you should go to the police?
05:48Because misfortune is absolutely confused.
05:50Guys, guys, guys, give him a chance, please give him a chance.
05:54Because there's no police in the entire universe that will attend to spiritual matters such
05:58as that.
05:59When you have a long standing issue, your discerning spirit will be absolutely silenced.
06:06So you cannot blame someone who has gone to a pastor because that person has entrusted
06:13his belief in that pastor.
06:15Okay.
06:16Thank you very much.
06:17All right.
06:18So now I am a lawyer.
06:20Number one, I will blame the pastor too.
06:22There are consequences, clear consequences.
06:25You could even be guilty of obtaining money by false pretense.
06:28Let's actually, let's drill in on that because in this country, there are people who've been
06:32prosecuted legally because of crimes related to religion, right?
06:37Absolutely.
06:38People have been prosecuted for obtaining money by false pretense.
06:41People have been prosecuted for rape.
06:43They will not go unpunished.
06:44In the law of the land, there are repercussions for people who are ready to take it up.
06:48And in the law of God, damnation is reserved for people.
06:51Let me come to Belusochoku for a second because I want to know within the interreligious council,
06:56do you have checks and balances so that if somebody comes to you and says, hey, this
07:01pastor in my church did X, Y, Z, what are the steps that you take?
07:04You have a disciplinary committee, which in can we have a ethics committee where issues
07:11like this are being reported and it's being handled.
07:13All right.
07:14Let me ask another question.
07:15Can the church be trusted to police itself?
07:18Can the police police themselves?
07:20The church hundred percent can be trusted.
07:24Let me hear from these two gentlemen here.
07:26They've been trying to get by.
07:27Weeks ago, there was something, a trending issue on Twitter about a particular pastor.
07:31He says, I must carry my twins' shrope, I'm a meek water, I'm a meek stone, do you understand
07:37that?
07:38And then meanwhile, this particular pastor continue, continue with his ministration,
07:42maybe, should I call it ministration or alleged ministration, but for the past few weeks,
07:47so nobody has penalized this man, they must close the church, even though the church is
07:51yet to be closed.
07:52Okay.
07:53Okay.
07:54Let me ask you a second, because we're hearing that one of the solutions could be closure
07:58of churches.
07:59A lawyer is here, that's what we call freedom of religion.
08:03Yes, but indeed, even the right to religion does have its limitations, right?
08:08So where is the line?
08:10Some years ago in Nigeria, I will mention the name of the church as regards the issue
08:13of miracle.
08:14They will show it on TV.
08:15The person will just wave his hand and people will fall.
08:18Governments through their grant and the government commanded broadcasting to stop the issue of
08:24miracle.
08:25They should be teaching the world.
08:26So it is expected of government.
08:28Yeah, exactly the point.
08:30There are some things that we call medical issues that should be solved in hospitals
08:33are being taken to church.
08:34If I had good employment, I will not be seeking God's help on employment.
08:38These are things that people can get anywhere by simply just, by simply just a good system.
08:45Okay.
08:46So Damilola, let me finish with you because you obviously have a very personal experience.
08:51When you hear about all these solutions, does it surprise you that prosecution of fake
08:55pastors is not one of them?
08:57It is absolutely amazing.
08:59My solution is through media.
09:03Media is not doing enough.
09:04Do you understand?
09:06So I think the media has a pivotal role to play here.
09:09See, don't believe that when you see a wrong thing that a man of God is doing, you are
09:15trying to, you are trying them through the media.
09:17So you are trying to curb a social menace, which if it occurs, it kills, it destroys.
09:25I couldn't have picked a better place to wrap up this debate, a very personal issue that
09:30obviously needs to be discussed publicly as we've heard from every single person on that
09:34panel.
09:35I don't know about you, but I had fun.
Comments