- 4 months ago
In this episode of Chakravyuh Podcast with Gaurav Sawant, Parliamentary Affairs Minister Kiren Rijiju discussed the just-concluded Monsoon session of Parliament, the 130th Constitutional Amendment Bill and a slew of issues.
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00:00Hello and welcome to a special edition of the Chakraview podcast. I'm Gaurav Savant.
00:10Between the government and the opposition, the battle lines are clearly drawn and caught in
00:16midst of this Chakraview is Kiran Rijiju, the Parliamentary Affairs Minister. He joins us on
00:23this special broadcast. Sir, welcome. Thank you. Sir, in 2012, the then Parliamentary Affairs
00:29Minister had said it cost about 75 lakhs an hour to run the Parliament. This time, about 83 hours
00:39were wasted in running that Parliament. So going by 2012 figures, about 62 crore rupees were wasted
00:46in the Lok Sabha and 60 crore wasted in the Rajya Sabha. Sir, who's responsible for this wastage
00:53of the taxpayers' money? The figure which you have given is only as per the monetary counting
01:03in terms of how much money is spent for the manpower, for the equipments, for the space and so many
01:13things. But what about the time of the members? The most precious is the time, wastage of the time
01:22of the members and the staff of the Parliament that cannot be assessed, the quantum cannot be drawn from
01:31the monetary figure. Imagine the Parliament of India, the representatives of every Parliamentary
01:40Constituencies and the Council of States being put under ransom by a few of the greedy political
01:49leaders. It's extremely unfortunate and also people are watching. So not functioning the Parliament as
02:01part of the desire of the people of the country. It's a sin committed by these people. When
02:08there are issues to be raised in the Parliament, you can raise it, you can protest it. That is
02:14why I have stated many times there is difference between opposition and obstruction. Opposing the
02:22government or criticising the government is the right of the members. But to stall the Parliament,
02:29obstruct the functioning of the Parliament itself, it amounts to dereliction from the duty. So I will not
02:38merely quote what the then Parliamentary Affairs Minister said. My point is much bigger. When the temple of
02:47democracy doesn't function, it causes huge damage to the democracy itself. The polity of India is
02:58dependent on how our house of legislatures function. Because parliaments and assemblies are the melting
03:08point where all different ideological background people come together and they discuss and debate for
03:15the nation. So the cost is extremely high. So why aren't these discussions and debates happening in
03:21Parliament? It's the job, the opposition says it's the job of the government to ensure Parliament
03:28functions and you are the Parliamentary Affairs Minister. So you are the Arjun in this chakra view. How will you ensure
03:36the Parliament functions? Monsoon session has, I'm sure you're equally disappointed with the record. And if I may, just
03:44look at the numbers, productivity in Lok Sabha, 31%. Productivity in Rajya Sabha, just barely higher,
03:5139%. 120 hours available, only 37 hours discussions held.
03:57Technically speaking, the functioning of the Parliament as per the timetable set, it is a reflection of how
04:10much the Parliament has run through the session. But from the point of view of productivity, there is a slight
04:22difference from the projection which you have shown and what actually it is. From my point of view and from the
04:29government's point of view, this monsoon session of the Parliament has been by far the most productive session.
04:37Why? Because the primary function of the Parliament is to pass the bills and also to discuss on important issues.
04:46First of all, the operation Sindur was deliberated. In both Lok Sabha and Rajya Sabha, longest ever debate on a subject
04:55in the both houses. It's a record-breaking session. Secondly, the numbers of bills passed. It's very difficult to recall
05:05in the past. So many bills are passed in one single Parliament session. In this session alone, the most consequential
05:18and reformative law against corruption has been put and also sent to the Joint Parliamentary Committee. So this is a very important
05:29one where constitutional amendment is required where the sitting chief ministers, union ministers, even prime ministers
05:36will have to come under the scrutiny of the law. Thereby, if you do corruption, you will have to go to jail. If you go to jail,
05:45you have to leave your post and position. This is such an important matter for every Indian. And then of course, there are
05:55important bills like online gaming. In today's time, it is so critical to ensure that the youth of India do not get
06:04themselves caught in the gambling. You know, there is a difference between skill and gambling.
06:11And gambling, absolutely. So it has been clearly demarketed. So this bill has been passed. The taxation bill, the biggest ever tax
06:20reforms, it is passed in this session. And the national sports governance bill, and the shipping bills, the
06:29merchant bills, the reservation of tribals in the assembly in Goa. And then so many important bills like mines and
06:38minerals amendment bill was passed. The IIT, IAM bill was passed. So these are some of the most critical bills passed in this
06:48parliament session. The only thing which I am not happy is the discussion did not take place.
06:55That's the point I was coming to. It takes two minutes to pass the bill, 32 minutes on that crucial sports bill.
07:01So that is why, from the nation's point of view, from government's point of view, our intention is to bring good bills for the
07:10nation. And it has been done. But I feel sorry for the opposition MPs, especially the young, talented MPs.
07:20When we came to the parliament as a young MP, we got to learn so many things because there used to be
07:27healthy debates and discussion. Opposition ruling, you know, there was camaraderie in terms of exchange of words.
07:34You know, you use banter against each other. There were, you know, at times tense, but at times light
07:43movements in the parliament. But now the leader of opposition doesn't want discretion.
07:48So why has this acrimony crept into the parliamentary discourse, the manner in which, and I'll come to 130th
07:54amendment bill in just a moment, because again, the two very diverse points of view between the government
08:02and the opposition, I'll come to that in just a moment. But you know, you said, yes, it's a record, the
08:06number of bills that have been passed, but the debate that should happen on those bills, if the taxation
08:11bill is being passed in two minutes discussion, if the sports bill or the anti-doping bill is being passed
08:16with 34 minutes discussion in parliament. Are we just ramming them through parliament?
08:21The due process, the deliberation, the meeting of the minds of our honourable lawmakers is not happening.
08:27The opposition party is not interested, but some of the opposition MPs, especially the young MPs, they
08:33have come to me and they express their willingness to participate in the discussion. But then their top
08:41leaders, especially the Congress leader Rahul Gandhi, he's not interested in any debates and discussion
08:48becauseâŚ
08:49But the Congress says he's almost never permitted to speak.
08:52He doesn't know how to actually perform as a leader of opposition on the floor of the house. We have seen
09:00great leader of opposition in the past. Rahul Gandhi from the day one, if you just go through his speeches,
09:09he just abuses. He doesn't make speech actually. There should be some statesmanship in the performance
09:19or in the words of the leader of opposition.
09:22Are you saying Rahul Gandhi is not a statesman?
09:24The problem is, see, number one, Rahul Gandhi is not matured. Secondly, his party also have some good
09:35numbers of speakers. But then if they are allowed to speak, they will overshadow Rahul Gandhi.
09:41The Congress party is a family-run party, so they want to promote only one person. So that is why my feeling is
09:50that if debates take place, then Rahul Gandhi will be exposed. Because he can't speak on subjects.
09:59He comes with some notes. He comes with some kind of agenda. And he just keeps on hammering on those points.
10:07He can't just make up his own mind on his own. So that is the biggest problem.
10:13And then secondly, the amount of effort which I have done. See, first three weeks, we did not pass any bills.
10:26We kept on pleading the opposition party, please come and participate in the debate.
10:33There are revolutionary bills coming up, important discussions. Even the discussion on felicitating Captain Subhansu Shukla
10:46who went to the space IS station. That also was not allowed by the opposition parties.
10:52Our party MPs, some of them spoke, but the discussion didn't conclude.
10:56Were you disappointed?
10:58Extremely disappointed because the first three weeks, I kept on pleading with the opposition leaders that please participate in the bills.
11:09So that is why I request everybody to follow the parliamentary proceedings.
11:14Every morning, we come out with the business. Business is listed. Every day, two bills in Lok Sabha, two bills in Rajasabha are listed.
11:23Besides the question-answer session, the bills are listed. And every day, we had to postpone the bills to the next day.
11:33How long we should keep on postponing? Shouldn't the government functioning?
11:38Shouldn't the parliament be functioning?
11:40Sir, the opposition wants a discussion, let's say, on the special intensive revision of the voter list of Bihar.
11:46That is, I have already told specifically that if there is an issue related to electoral reforms, then parliament can definitely discuss because the law ministry is the nodal ministry for election reforms and anything related to election commission of India.
12:03But when it comes to the functioning of the election commission, the administrative issues of the election commission of India, how can we discuss in the parliament?
12:14For example, if there is some mechanism within the Supreme Court of India, if Supreme Court of India is deciding to take certain steps to reform some functioning within the Supreme Court of India, how can we discuss in the parliament?
12:29Who will answer on behalf of them?
12:32In the same manner, the election commission of India had conducted special intensive review of the electoral rolls.
12:39Now, this is an administrative effort by the election commission of India, not on the aid and advice of the government of India.
12:46It was their act on their own, just to make the electoral rolls robust.
12:51No, but why just before Bihar elections and why in the state of Bihar?
12:55It has been going on since independence.
12:57This is not the first time.
12:59So, if we take up, who will come and defend?
13:02Can election commission member, chief election commissioner or any from the election commission come to the parliament and defend themselves?
13:10No, they are not allowed to do that.
13:12So, we are very clear that the constitutional authorities are to be protected.
13:19Let them function on their own because they are autonomous people.
13:22If there are government departments, organizations, then ministers will respond.
13:27But ministers should respond to the member's query if it is permitted under some rules, conduct of business, rules of the procedure.
13:37The parliament functions with certain norms, certain rules, conventions. Rahul Gandhi doesn't believe in any conventions, any rules.
13:46See, first of all, you have to understand one thing.
13:49We are a democratic nation.
13:52All the political parties will have to be democratic.
13:56For example, Bharatiya Janta Party is fully democratic in its conduct.
14:01Our leaders emerge through performance, through their capacity, with experience.
14:10But Congress Party is a family-run party.
14:14So, a family-run party cannot be democratic.
14:18Because anybody can be leader of opposition.
14:22For example, Malik Arjun Kharge is the leader of opposition in Raj Sabha.
14:27Raj Sabha.
14:28But he can't do anything.
14:29He has to ask Rahul Gandhi.
14:31He has no power.
14:33What kind of democracy we are seeing?
14:36It is extremely painful to see that a person like Malik Arjun Kharge, such a senior person,
14:42has to publicly say that he is there because of Gandhi family.
14:48He is there because of Rahul Gandhi and Sonia Gandhi.
14:51What a diminishing statement.
14:53If that is the position of the Congress Party president and leader of opposition,
14:58what would be the fate of ordinary Congress workers?
15:01Rahul Gandhi insults the Congress Party leaders, senior leaders.
15:05You have seen them.
15:06He torn the paper of the cabinet decision.
15:10Then you can imagine what is the condition of the other Congress leaders.
15:15But as parliamentary affairs minister, have you reached out to Rahul Gandhi?
15:20I have met Rahul Gandhi.
15:21I have met Malik Arjun Kharge.
15:23I have met many Congress leaders.
15:26And I have met all the senior leaders of the opposition party.
15:30What have you told them?
15:31What was your conversation with them?
15:33Conversation is always I am, you know, as a parliamentary affairs minister,
15:38seeking their cooperation and asking them to let the parliament function.
15:44And what is their response?
15:46They are not interested at all.
15:49In fact, let me tell one thing.
15:51I was deeply pained when the captain Subhansu Suklar's felicitation discussion was to happen.
16:00Some Congress MPs said that what is big thing going to space?
16:04Now you can pay and you can go.
16:06What is this big achievement?
16:08Can you imagine?
16:09This is the attitude of the Congress leaders.
16:14But when it comes to critical issues of national importance like Opsindoor,
16:18entire parliament came together.
16:20All MPs came together when delegations had to be sent overseas.
16:24Everyone came together and it happened.
16:26So why doesn't that unity not function on the floor of the house in national interest?
16:32Or because the opposition says we are doing what, you know,
16:36late Sushma Swarajji or Arun Jetliji when they were leader of opposition in Lok Sabha and Rajasapha.
16:40They used to participate in discussions.
16:41However, they also said disruption is also part of democracy.
16:45Disruption is opposition.
16:46Disruption, see, let me be very clear and categorical.
16:51We will not allow opposition party to put parliament under ransom.
16:59They cannot withhold the functioning of the parliament.
17:04We waited for three weeks.
17:06They didn't listen to us.
17:08That is why we had to pass the bills because those revolutionary bills are in the interest of the nation,
17:15for the future of India.
17:17This group of opposition leaders cannot curtail the future prospects of India.
17:25So we are very clear from the national point of view, national perspective.
17:32We did what we have to do.
17:34They can't stop us from passing the bills.
17:37But it is them who has lost out.
17:40I want to now come specifically to a point you raised, which you said is a national interest,
17:45the 130th amendment bill, that even the prime minister of India, chief ministers,
17:51ministers, whether they're in the state or the center, in case they're in jail for 30 consecutive days on the 31st day,
17:57they should either step down or automatically be debarred from office.
18:02Sir, the opposition says you are making a police state where an inspector will be more powerful than the prime minister of India.
18:14How can they make such important points with such kind of frivolous comments?
18:23See, Advani ji, you remember?
18:25Yes.
18:26Ladabadu, Shastri ji, you remember?
18:28Those were the days.
18:30Now we don't get to see it.
18:32But in BJP, we follow it very strictly.
18:36When Amit Shahji was sent a summon by the CBI,
18:41before arrested, he resigned as minister.
18:46Advani ji, in the Jain diary,
18:49he clearly said that he will not remain even member of parliament until his name is cleared from that allegation or that diary case.
18:58So, if there is a shameless chief minister who goes to jail but who refuses to resign,
19:06don't you think there should be a proper rule for that?
19:10There should be a proper law for that?
19:12The Delhi High Court seemed to indicate thatâŚ
19:15Still, some people are so shameless.
19:18They don't understand their responsibilities.
19:24You know, you have to abdicate your post once it's untenable.
19:29For example, there is a political party who is totally clean.
19:44There is a system within the political party which decides that corrupt people or tainted people will not be given high positions.
19:56Then that party can cleanse within themselves.
19:59In BJP, our system is very clear.
20:03A corrupt person is not protected nor he holds any position.
20:08But in some of the partiesâŚ
20:10The opposition on the other hand says that anybody who joins the BJP,
20:15investigation against that leader comes to a standstill.
20:18These are allegationsâŚ
20:19It's called the washing machine of the BJP.
20:21These are political allegations.
20:23You need not, you know, respond to each and every kind of these frivolous allegations.
20:29What I am saying is, in principle, we have to be very clear.
20:33Should or should not there be a strong law against corruption,
20:37especially those who sit in the high constitutional positions?
20:40So, Caesar's wife has to be above suspicion that that principle must prevail.
20:45However, you know, when I interviewed Manish Tiwari,
20:50member of parliament from Chandigarh recently,
20:52his point was, any individual is innocent until proven guilty by a court of law.
20:58Not in politics.
20:59In this case, not in politics.
21:01In politics.
21:02In politics.
21:03So, then tell me, when there is a court ordered investigation against a chief minister,
21:11any minister, does he resign or not?
21:16Why the issue comes up?
21:17That till he is in position, he will influence the investigation.
21:22So, where is the question of innocence till proven guilty?
21:26Let us not mix up this thing.
21:29Anybody, the person you conducted the interview with, or anybody maybe,
21:34don't mix up the thing.
21:36Politics has to be extremely above any suspicion.
21:42So, that's why I am saying, the law is very clear.
21:47If you are jailed for more than 30 days, you must quit.
21:53Or, otherwise there should be a law, you will have to abdicate your position.
21:58But sir, can morality be enforced or should morality come from within an individual?
22:04So, if somebody doesn't resign, morality doesn't prevail on him, what can you do?
22:08You have to have a strong law.
22:10No.
22:11But if the opposition says that, and you have heard it more than anybody else, that the
22:16opposition says, CBI, Income Tax Department, Enforcement Directorate, all these agencies
22:22are a handmaiden of the BJP.
22:25Yeah, these were examples of the Congress time.
22:28But now they are saying they are handmaidens of the BJP.
22:30No, no.
22:31So, the court said CBI was a caged parrot during Congress.
22:35Yes.
22:36But they are saying that caged parrot remains a caged parrot.
22:38No.
22:39The government has changed.
22:40However, agencies have to be strong.
22:42If you want to enforce some discipline in the functioning of the investigating agencies,
22:49they must have teeth, no?
22:52If they can't take action, what is the point of having those agencies?
22:56If you have to crack down on the corrupt practices of the people, then the agencies will work.
23:05It doesn't matter which government, which party.
23:08But the thing is, in BJP, the internal mechanism is so strong that you can't do corruption.
23:15In the last 11 years of our government under Modi ji, has any minister taken any bribe,
23:22taken any benefits, or involved in any scams or scandals?
23:27No.
23:28The Congress party said that our government will have to leave.
23:31See, you have to understand one thing.
23:35You are just referring to agencies only.
23:38The Congress time, all the scams, did it stumble out of the agencies?
23:44It was by social media or some documents or by media.
23:49Now, 11 years, in full glare of the digital world.
23:55In the full glare and full, you know, engulfed by the social media.
24:02Not a single minister is involved in any corruption.
24:06Why do you think so?
24:07It's because our party has a strong system of ensuring self-discipline.
24:14And the Prime Minister, from day one, has clearly stated that corruption will be not tolerated in our government.
24:25In this proposed 138th constitutional amendment, initially the recommendation was,
24:32Prime Minister's office should be kept away from this provision.
24:36Like it was in the 39th amendment.
24:38Yeah.
24:39But Prime Minister was very clear.
24:40He said, why should there be special protection and special status to the Prime Minister?
24:45Prime Minister is also a citizen of this country.
24:48Prime Minister cannot be above the law.
24:51That is the stand of Prime Minister Mohdiji.
24:53No.
24:54So, the Prime Minister's stance is commendable.
24:56However, the opposition says no agency will have the guts to look at the Prime Minister's office.
25:02They will just go after the opposition states.
25:05You know, whether it's a party A or a party B or a party C of the opposition.
25:10They will never go after government ministers or UPA.
25:15What Congress's government has been doing for the last 60-70 years.
25:20And today, so many governments are opposition-ruled states.
25:25So, should I tell them that the Chief Minister of Telangana, Chief Minister of Kannataka,
25:36Chief Minister of West Bengal, Chief Minister of Punjab, Chief Minister of Himachal Pratish,
25:41should, you know, let the police get out of the government control?
25:47The special investigation team, SITs and all, should get away from the government?
25:52What are they talking about?
25:54There's something called governance.
25:56Government is the responsible.
25:58Government is responsible for everything.
26:01But, sir, if a Chief Minister does not get bail, for example, for 30 days,
26:04you've been Law Minister of India, and I believe the youngest Law Minister of India.
26:08If a Chief Minister or a Minister does not get bail in 30 daysâŚ
26:13So, he'll go to jail.
26:14And he'll lose his Chief Ministership.
26:16If he gets a clean sheet from the court, he can get back his chair.
26:20But, it's not your private property.
26:22Chief Minister or a Minister position is just a public post.
26:37These are for the people who will serve as long as they are in position.
26:43And then, when the time is up, somebody else will come.
26:47This is a continuous process.
26:49Don't think that these ministerial posts are reserved for a family, for a person.
26:54We are not Congress party.
26:56And the Government of India will not function like Congress family party.
27:00Kiran Rijiju, Parliamentary Affairs Minister of India,
27:02for joining me here on this Chakraview special podcast.
27:05Many thanks, sir.
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