FRANCE 24's Sharon Gaffney speaks with Lawrence Gostin, Director of the WHO Collaborating Centre on National and Global Health Law, about CDC Director Susan Monarez's firing by US President Donald Trump. He says that the latest development is "a very dangerous moment for the United States" and part of a "systematic assault on science, public health and vaccinations".
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00:00This is apropos. Well, she's one of at least three Senate-confirmed regulatory officials.
00:08The Trump administration has moved to fire in recent days, but her lawyers say she's going nowhere.
00:14After less than a month in the role, the White House says it's removed Susan Moneris from her position as director of the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention
00:23following clashes with Health Secretary Robert F. Kennedy Jr. over his controversial vaccine policy.
00:31Monty Francis has the details.
00:33At the dawn of the genomics era...
00:35She was nominated by Donald Trump himself, but after less than a month on the job,
00:39the White House says that Susan Moneris has been fired as head of the CDC.
00:44In a statement, the administration explained that Moneris was not aligned with the president's agenda of making America healthy again.
00:51The nation's top health official, Robert F. Kennedy, would only say this about the firing during an appearance on Fox News.
00:58The agency is in trouble, and we need to fix it, and we are fixing it, and it may be that some people should not be working there anymore.
01:07So if I'm confirmed as a CDC director...
01:10Moneris, who testified before the Senate in June, says she was pressured by Kennedy, a vaccine skeptic, to change the agency's vaccine policy.
01:19She initially refused to step down, and through her lawyer, she accused Kennedy of weaponizing public health for political gain
01:26and putting millions of American lives at risk.
01:29When CDC director Susan Moneris refused to rubber stamp unscientific, reckless directives and fire dedicated health experts,
01:37she chose protecting the public over serving a political agenda.
01:41For that reason, she has been targeted.
01:43As the nation's top health official, Kennedy has effectively done away with an advisory committee that recommends vaccines
01:50and revived a task force to scrutinize childhood vaccines, prompting concern from most health experts.
01:57In response to Moneris' firing, several other top officials at the CDC resigned, including the agency's chief medical officer.
02:05And all of this follows months of turmoil at the CDC.
02:10Its budget has been slashed, hundreds of employees terminated,
02:14and the agency is still reeling after a gunman fired hundreds of rounds at the CDC headquarters in Atlanta earlier this month,
02:21apparently upset about the effects he claims to have suffered as a result of a COVID vaccine.
02:27To discuss, let's bring in Lawrence Gostin, director of the WHO Collaborating Center on National and Global Health Law.
02:34Lawrence, thanks for being with us on the programme this evening.
02:38As we say, she is one of at least three Senate-confirmed regulatory officials that Donald Trump has moved against in recent days.
02:46She hasn't even been in the job a month.
02:49In your view, why exactly is Susan Moneris being targeted?
02:55Well, you know, let's be clear why she's being targeted.
02:58It isn't because she's had any malfeasance or corruption.
03:05She's being targeted precisely because she's doing her job.
03:10She's relying on science and scientific evidence to make vaccine and other public health policy,
03:19which she is charged with doing.
03:22And what she's refusing to do is to be obedient to a political orthodoxy.
03:31There's no RFK or Trump science.
03:36There's only science.
03:38And there is no political agenda about science.
03:43There's only a desire to use the best possible evidence to keep Americans healthy and safe.
03:53That's what she did.
03:54That's not a fireable offence.
03:57And in terms of fireable offences and even the right to fire her,
04:02is it only Donald Trump rather than White House officials who have the power to remove a CDC director?
04:08That's what her lawyers are claiming.
04:09Yes, as a matter of law, that's true.
04:15For many decades, the Secretary for Health and Human Services had the constitutional power to fire the director of CDC.
04:26But recently, Congress passed a law requiring Senate confirmation for CDC director.
04:35She's the first one to ever be a Senate-confirmed nominee.
04:40And for that, you need the president.
04:43Now, the president has been conspicuously silent, eerily silent on this.
04:48But the White House has said that the president signed off on it.
04:52He does have the power.
04:53But Secretary Kennedy doesn't.
04:56But even if he does have the power, this is bad for the American population.
05:03I've worked with the CDC for over 40 years in Republican and Democratic administrations.
05:11And I've never seen anything like this, the undermining, the denigrating of career public servants and scientists and CDC leadership.
05:21This is a very dangerous moment for the United States.
05:26Yeah, and lawyers for the CDC director, they're saying this is all part of a systematic dismantling of public health institutions, silencing of experts and the dangerous politicization of science.
05:37Where is all of this headed?
05:39You know, I think it's headed in a very bad direction.
05:45You mentioned at the start of the show that Robert F. Kennedy Jr. fired all 12 members of the CDC's Advisory Committee on Immunization Practices.
06:01These are the top scientists.
06:04And what he did was he replaced them with loyalists, yes men, and anti-vaccine skeptics.
06:14Now, if you think about it, that's exactly what he's going to do at CDC.
06:20He's going to replace Susan Menares and other CDC senior leadership and senior scientists with people that have blind fidelity to a political ideology, unmoored from science and public health.
06:39And that will cost lives in the United States, undoubtedly.
06:44And it could also have a big impact outside the United States as well.
06:50Lawrence, remind us, what other changes has the health secretary made when it comes to vaccine policies since taking office?
06:57And have those changes had any impact yet?
07:01Oh, it's been a systematic assault on vaccinations.
07:05This includes, as I mentioned, the firing of all senior advice, scientific advisors on vaccination and replacing them wholesale.
07:19Removing research for messenger RNA vaccines, which has saved millions of lives during COVID,
07:29but also could be used for cancer and other infectious diseases and future public health emergencies.
07:37He's tried to amplify and study the links between autism and measles vaccines, and no link exists, just stepping up hysteria.
07:51And he's also threatened to impose steep liability on vaccine makers, which will make them leave the field.
08:04I could go on and on, but this is literally a systematic assault on science, public health, and vaccinations in particular.
08:14And the CDC itself called vaccines the greatest public health achievement of the 20th century.
08:21And all of us in science agree.
08:24And it's not long, of course, since a gunman attacked the CDC's Atlanta headquarters.
08:28It's also seen staff numbers cut.
08:30It's seen funding cut.
08:32How concerned are people there at the moment about what the future is for the centre?
08:39You know, I've been in touch with my friends at CDC.
08:43I've never seen them with such low morale, so dispirited, feeling so alone and isolated.
08:54And even they feel like they're distrusted and almost disliked by the administration and by the general public because they've fomented distrust against them.
09:09Now, I'm not going to say that Secretary Kennedy is responsible for the shooting at the CDC headquarters, but I do think there's a direct line between all of the venom that he spewed out against scientists, public health officials, and CDC in particular, and what happened in Atlanta.
09:31And we're the most dangerous moment that I've seen for science in America.
09:38You know, there's a reason why countries around the world, including in Europe, call their public agencies the CDC because they're the gold standard in science and public health.
09:51And when the next pandemic hits, we'll knock on the CDC's door for help and no one will be there.
09:59And, Lawrence, just finally, how far do you think Donald Trump will go in rest and control over agencies in the U.S.
10:05that have traditionally been independent of presidential politics, this all coming ahead of what's shaping up to be a legal showdown with Lisa Cook at the Federal Reserve?
10:16Yeah, you know, it's becoming really clear what Donald Trump is doing.
10:24He's doing everything that he can to undermine the federal workforce, federal agencies, experts in economics, public health, science, environmental protection, and you name it.
10:40And what's happening is, is he'll do whatever he wants, whether it's constitutional or not, unless and until somebody stops him.
10:50And we have a completely compliant Congress that will do nothing to stop him, even though he's usurping their powers.
10:58And we have a very compliant Supreme Court that's stacked with hyper-conservatives that seem to think that their job is to defend the president, including giving him immunity for whatever he does.
11:15So, he will keep doing it until he's stopped, and he has to be stopped for the sake of American health, security, integrity, and our reputation all around the world.
11:31Lawrence, we'll have to leave it on that.
11:32I don't recognize the America that I see right now.
11:35We'll have to leave it on that note, Lawrence.
11:37Thanks so much for being with us on the program this evening.
11:41That is Lawrence Guston, Director of the WHO Collaborating Centre on National and Global Health Law.
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