Could Trump Administration Deport Kilmar Abrego Garcia To Uganda?: Attorney Explains Third Country Removals

Forbes Breaking News

Kate Lincoln-Goldfinch, a Texas-based immigration attorney, joined "Forbes Newsroom" to discuss the case of Kilmar Abrego Garcia, the man who was mistakenly deported to El Salvador earlier this year. On Monday, he was detained by ICE while reporting to immigration officials after being released from custody last week, but a federal judge temporarily blocked the Trump administration from deporting him to Uganda.

Transcript

00:00Hi, everybody. I'm Brittany Lewis, a breaking news reporter here at Forbes.

00:07Joining me now is Texas-based immigration attorney Kate Lincoln-Goldfinch. Kate,

00:12thank you so much for joining me. Thanks for having me on, Brittany.

00:15I want to talk about a story that you and I broke down a couple months ago,

00:18and that is about Kilmar Abrego Garcia. This is a case that some have said shows the Trump

00:23administration's really aggressive approach when it comes to immigration. Critics have called this

00:28an assault on due process. But to start off the conversation, I want to give a rough timeline

00:32of what's happened so far. Earlier this year, Abrego Garcia was mistakenly deported to El Salvador.

00:38He returned to the United States in June, and then he was detained on human smuggling charges,

00:43and now he's currently awaiting a January trial on those charges. On Friday, he was released from

00:49custody in Tennessee, and he returned to Maryland. But this past Monday, he was once again detained

00:54after reporting to ICE in Maryland. And DHS is now saying they could deport him to Uganda,

00:59but a federal judge temporarily blocked his deportation. There have been certainly a lot

01:04of developments in the past couple of days, especially. So provide your perspective here

01:09as an immigration attorney, what do you make of what's happened in recent days?

01:13Yeah, that was an excellent and very quick summary of what has been a long and windy and very emotional

01:18road for Kilmer and his family. I think that the Trump administration made a mistake. And the right

01:25thing to do at the beginning would have been to acknowledge the mistake, bring Kilmer home,

01:31and that would have been the end of the story. But instead, they're unwilling to admit error. And so

01:36they doubled down and tried to convince the American public that Kilmer is dangerous and tried to

01:42bring alien smuggling charges against him and are now threatening to deport him to

01:48Uganda. And it's really heartbreaking. I feel terribly for this young man, for his family,

01:54for his wife, for due process in this country. It's been difficult to watch that someone in his

02:02situation who obtained protection from immigration court that said he would not be deported to El

02:08Salvador, then had that very thing happen to him. And it's almost as if he's continually punished

02:14because of the government's mistake. It's really, really unjust when you dive into the facts.

02:19So let's talk about why exactly Uganda, because back in 2019, an immigration judge said that he

02:26could not be deported back to El Salvador because he faced gang violence there. So he was given the

02:31status of withholding of removal. So in this context, what exactly does that mean? Just that he can't

02:37go to El Salvador and he can go anywhere else in the world?

02:40Technically, yes. Withholding of removal is a lot like asylum. Someone has to prove that they will

02:47suffer persecution in their country if they are removed. It's a tough thing to win. I've had a lot

02:52of these cases before the immigration court, and you have to bring a lot of evidence and get through

02:57cross-examination. It's actually harder to win than asylum, believe it or not. But withholding of

03:03removal is less protective. And it only says that the person can't be removed to the country that they've

03:09sought protection from. So in his case, it's El Salvador. And normally, and historically, that

03:14would be the end of the conversation because we've never really seen people deported to third countries.

03:20But this is a brainchild of the Trump administration, where if they can't deport people to their

03:26countries of origin, they're looking for alternatives to get people out of the United States.

03:31And so they brokered these deals with other nations to accept our deportees. And so that's why

03:38Kilmar could be deported to Uganda, because under withholding of removal, he's only protected against

03:44deportation to El Salvador. And the country of Uganda, presumably, has brokered a deal with the

03:50United States to receive some of our deportees. So it's really important that the judge has blocked

03:55that deportation, because I think he would be on a plane very quickly to Uganda or some other country

04:00if it weren't for that order. What do you think this means really for immigration in this country

04:05that someone can be deported to not their country of origin, they can be deported to some random

04:09country that they have no ties with? I think everybody's watching. I think that the Trump

04:15administration's popularity is at an all time low precisely because of moves like this, separating

04:21families, sending people to third countries, making up charges against them. These are all things that

04:27everybody is watching. They're on every news outlet, and it's not going in Trump's favor.

04:33And that's why we see them do things like attempt to redistrict before the midterms.

04:36I think that the court of public opinion is going to help this play out. And unfortunately for Kilmar,

04:43he is the poster child for the movement, you know, and he suffers through it. But I don't think Americans

04:49are going to stand for this. This is just not who we are as a nation. And we're not going to stand by

04:54and watch someone like him get deported to Uganda. It's absolutely absurd. It's unacceptable.

05:00Do you think that because he is what you're describing as the poster child,

05:04that the Trump administration is going to throw the book at him? Because I want to read something

05:08that Attorney General Pam Bondi said. She said this, quote, he will no longer terrorize our country.

05:13He is currently charged with human smuggling, including children. The guy needs to be in prison.

05:18He doesn't need to be on the streets like all these liberals want him to be.

05:22Does that indicate to you then that this is more than just a fight about immigration? This is also

05:27a political fight then too. I mean, what do you make of that? Do you think that he's going to be

05:32made an example of by this administration? Definitely. They are absolutely making an

05:36example of him. And it's a classic bully abuse scenario. I mean, if you think about someone

05:41who's in an abusive relationship and their partner does something wrong, but rather than admitting it

05:46and apologize, they double down and they ramp up the abuse. That's what the Trump administration

05:51is doing against Kilmar. And that's the thing that we all see clearly. And it's not we're not falling

05:56for it. We know that those alien smuggling charges didn't contain evidence. We know that they are

06:02just doubling down to prove a point because they don't want to just admit that they were wrong.

06:07So, I mean, it's it's not going well for them in the court of public opinion. It just isn't.

06:11And then Kilmar Obrego Garcia's attorney said this yesterday. We're going to ask for an interim

06:17order that he not be deported pending his due process rights to contest deportation to any

06:22particular country. And as we know, the federal judge did block his deportation temporarily.

06:28But how strong do you think his case and his argument on due process is?

06:34Well, I mean, I think that the unfortunate thing is that we have lower federal courts and then we have

06:41courts of appeals and we have the Supreme Court and we have a pretty unpredictable judiciary.

06:47So I think this is the type of matter that could be appealed. And at some point, a deportation to a

06:53third country could be allowed. And then we'll have to see what happens. I mean, if he gets deported to

06:58Uganda and disappears within their system, that's going to be a pretty big headline. And I don't think

07:03people will forget it. I want to get back to the third country removal because that's seemingly

07:08raising some alarm bells for people. The Trump administration gave Obrego Garcia a deal to

07:14deport him to Costa Rica if he pleaded guilty to the human smuggling charges. And then he served

07:19whatever sentence that the courts gave him. He's not pleading guilty. And now the Trump

07:23administration floated that Uganda deportation. And Obrego Garcia's attorney said that the Trump

07:29administration is using the immigration system and, quote, which country someone is going to be

07:34deported to to try to weaponize and gain leverage in a criminal prosecution. And then he calls that

07:40flatly unconstitutional. What do you make of that? I mean, I agree. You know, I mean, so they're trying to

07:46bring these criminal charges against him. But taking that aside, if you think about just the idea of

07:51withholding of removal, someone being protected against removal to their country of origin, but they

07:56could go to another country. Removing someone to another country, let's say they sent him to Mexico,

08:01what that might look like in a just society is that they bring him to Mexico. And he is allowed

08:07to be free there and establish a life or go to some other country and talk to his family. And he has

08:13his liberty and his freedom. It's not what we're seeing in these third country removals with the

08:18Trump administration, where people like Venezuelans are being sent into torture prisons in El Salvador,

08:23never to speak to their family. I mean, this is not what we're talking about when we say

08:29withholding of removal allows removal to other countries, not indefinite detention and disappearance

08:34into torture camps. That's not what it means. I'm curious what you're looking out for next,

08:40specifically as an immigration attorney, because that federal judge, like we've talked about

08:44on Monday, blocked his deportation temporarily until the court hears his legal challenge fighting

08:50his deportation. So what specifically are you looking out for there?

08:53We're watching for appeals to make sure that that stop on his removal to Uganda sticks and waiting to

09:02see how the criminal charges go forward. I mean, at some point, if he's not removed,

09:09he should be released from custody. But all of this is in the hands of the court system. And like I said,

09:16I mean, you know, the court systems right now are not a guarantee. It's, it's pretty hit or miss these

09:23days in the judiciary and in Congress. And he was released on Friday. He was detained again on

09:30Monday. Do you think there is a world in America right now where he's not deported? Or do you think

09:36that's really not an option? And he's just going to be deported anywhere that's not El Salvador?

09:43I think I could foresee a world in which he would agree to leave and go to another country if he were

09:51not detained. If I were him or his lawyers, that's what I would be arguing for. Let me leave this

09:56country, but not in a jail cell. So maybe they'll work something else like that out. I don't know.

10:03I don't represent him. I wish the best for him and his legal team. I can only imagine how much stress

10:09and pressure they are under trying to navigate all of this. I mean, it's this entire spotlight of

10:14the cruelty of the Trump administration just shined on this one case is really, it's a lot to take in.

10:21And I really feel for this man. I feel for him and his wife and his family. It's so unfair.

10:26And overall, once again, from the perspective of an immigration attorney, what do you think this

10:30whole conversation, this whole legal fight means for due process?

10:35Well, what I would say is this case doesn't speak for due process in general. I mean, due process or the

10:45lack of it is at play everywhere you look in immigration policy and enforcement and the way

10:50that cases are being handled and the way that courthouse attentions are happening and the way

10:54that families are being separated and the way that people like Kilmar are being handled. So due process

10:59is a bigger conversation. The actual case of Kilmar Abrego-Garcia is about, at this point,

11:05it's about a third country removal for someone who has withholding of removal. That's ultimately

11:11what this case is about. But we're watching the behavior and the willingness on the part of the

11:16attorney general and the Trump administration to just violate traditional norms, human rights,

11:23due process, constitutional protections, and just basic concepts of humanity. That's

11:29what we're witnessing in this case. And do you think the Trump administration is using this case

11:36as a deterrent, saying anyone trying to come to America, don't come here because you could get sent

11:43somewhere else completely? Do you think that there's an element of deterrence, attempted deterrence

11:49at play, but that's not really on their mind right now, deterring. They might be actually hoping that

11:55more people self-deport. And I can tell you that that is happening. People I talk to every day,

12:01good, hardworking immigrants who don't have criminal history, who we need here in this economy,

12:06are choosing to leave because they don't want to live like this. They don't want to live under siege.

12:11And I can tell you, I've talked to so many people who come from authoritarian regimes

12:15in their home countries, and they've watched this pattern play out before. And they see it happening

12:21here in the United States. And these people say to me, I'm not going to stay here and watch it in

12:25the United States either. And I'm not going to be under siege like this. And I'm leaving. And we're

12:28starting to see the results of that in our economy. And hopefully it'll become so clear to everybody by

12:35the time the midterms happen, that a lot of this behavior by the Trump administration will get stopped

12:40in its tracks. And I think with politics, a lot of the time, immigration is painted in a black and

12:46white issue. And that's really not the case. There's so much gray area when it comes to

12:50immigration. This was a top issue facing voters in 2024. As someone who is an immigration attorney,

12:56who represents these cases, who has these conversations, what do you think is missing

13:01really from the national dialogue when it comes to immigration?

13:04I think that the missing piece began actually during the Biden administration. During the Biden

13:11administration, the conservative side was so loud. It was such a loud and regular drumbeat

13:18claiming that immigrants were invading, that they were trafficking children, they were trafficking

13:24drugs, they were raping girls. You know, just that rhetoric was so routine and regular. And the

13:31Biden administration and Democrats, frankly, didn't really talk as loudly about the reality of what was

13:38going on the border. We didn't have open border. Immigrants are great for this country. All of those

13:43talking points went by the wayside. And so here we are living in this world where a bunch of people

13:49have begun to believe the lies and the anti-immigrant rhetoric that Trump displays. And now we're in a

13:56situation of imbalance. But what can help is cases like Kilmars, other cases that reach the media,

14:04viral videos that go out and people start to see, wait a minute, good people are being impacted by this.

14:09People I love. Families are being separated. Construction is down in my area. It's hard to

14:14find landscapers. You know, my schools are closing down. I'm starting to see that maybe this is all

14:22wrong. You know, and I think that we're starting to see that shift a little bit in the polls and where

14:27we're seeing the Trump administration and his approval rating because they've gone so hard and so

14:33aggressive against immigrants that, you know, it's obvious unless, you know, you're just not paying

14:39attention whatsoever. You can see that this is not actually helping our country, even if you're

14:43unmoved by the humanitarian angle. Kate, I appreciate your update on this case. And as we

14:49see more developments come out, I hope you can come back on and break them down with me. Kate Lincoln

14:54Goldfinch, thank you so much for joining me. You're welcome back anytime. Thanks, Brittany.

15:13Bye-bye.

15:14Bye-bye.

15:16Bye.

15:18Bye-bye.

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