00:00Well, the Women's Rugby World Cup opens this evening in England.
00:03The first women's-only tournament was actually 34 years ago, back in 1991.
00:08And things have certainly come a long way since,
00:11especially because that first competition,
00:14the women had to actually organize it themselves
00:16to the displeasure of the International Rugby Board.
00:19Now, fast forward to 2025.
00:22Organizers are hoping for record-breaking attendance.
00:25Hundreds of thousands of tickets have already been sold,
00:27with entrances to the final actually already sold out.
00:31For more on this, Ben Coles joins us on the program.
00:34He's a journalist, more specifically a sports writer for The Observer.
00:37Thank you for joining us today, Ben.
00:39So, like I said, women's rugby has evolved quite a bit
00:42over the past three decades or so, and the beginning wasn't easy.
00:46Why do you think it was such a challenge to get mainstream recognition?
00:50And was that specific to rugby,
00:51or was it part of a more general mood, so to speak,
00:54for women's sports in the early 1990s?
00:57You're right.
01:00Yeah, the first tournament was very much organized
01:01kind of by people having to go out on their own,
01:04doing it without the authorities showing much interest.
01:07And the rise that we've seen in popularity,
01:09I think, especially in the last decade,
01:12I think what's been really key to that
01:13is players' ability to use social media
01:15to sort of market themselves really well.
01:17The women's game feels very different to the men's game
01:19in terms of how infectious the personalities are,
01:22how easily and approachable the athletes are as well.
01:25So, I think this is going to be a fascinating tournament
01:27where the status of those players is going to go to another level.
01:31Like you've already said, the amount of tickets sold,
01:33we're looking at 375,000 already,
01:36which is going to be a record number.
01:37That's already triple what we saw at the 2021 World Cup in New Zealand
01:41a few years ago.
01:42So, an enormous moment for the game in England
01:45and for the women's game.
01:46And I think we're in for a really special tournament.
01:48There have been claims that, in some ways,
01:51women's rugby is surpassing men's.
01:53I mean, you kind of hinted at it there
01:55with some of the more kind of popular
01:56or perhaps approachable personalities of the athletes.
01:59Do you think that that's true?
02:03I think it's been key to growing the women's game.
02:06And we've seen this a bit with the Lionesses
02:08being a women's football team as well
02:09in their recent success.
02:11It's just going out there to prove that the sports are different
02:14and that actually, while they share the same rules
02:18and they share the same approaches,
02:19actually, they're trying to market and approach the game
02:21in a very different way.
02:22And I think the women's rugby team,
02:24especially in England, have been very successful at that
02:26in terms of how well they've connected with fans.
02:28We're hoping to see a crowd of around 50,000
02:31there in Sunderland tonight for the opening game
02:33against the USA.
02:35And hopefully, that will just attract more and more interest
02:37to the sport, which is really on the up.
02:40Do you think the expectation is that much of this new popularity
02:43is mostly women, or are you under the impression
02:45that men, too, have a growing interest in women's rugby?
02:50No, I definitely think it's both sectors.
02:52I think everybody is kind of engaging.
02:54It's not just female supporters.
02:57But hopefully, the offshoots of this will be
02:59that we'll see kind of more and more girls
03:00getting involved at grassroots level and at junior level
03:03and taking up the sport.
03:05A lot of these England players in particular
03:06and players from other countries
03:08will have grown up 20, 30 years ago
03:11playing in boys' teams at school level
03:13or at club level.
03:14And now there's more and more teams available
03:17at grassroots level, more girls' teams,
03:20more kind of girls' programs, more elite programs,
03:22more professional contracts being given out
03:24at the top level for the top players in the world.
03:26So hopefully, it's just the continuation
03:28of this momentum that we've seen
03:29over the last five years or so.
03:31There was a similar conversation
03:33that was had for women's football.
03:35How do you think that women's rugby
03:37compares to other sports in terms of popularity?
03:41And if it's different,
03:42to what do you attribute that success?
03:46I think if I think about the market in England here,
03:48because the Lionesses have had so much success
03:51in the last two European championships,
03:52winning both of those competitions
03:54and also reaching that 2023
03:56Women's World Cup final as well,
03:58what rugby's now hoping to do
04:00is to sort of feed off the momentum from that
04:02and to show that actually,
04:04with rugby in particular,
04:06it's been a story for as long
04:08as the sport has been around.
04:09It really caters to all different types
04:11of body types in terms of bigger,
04:13stronger players or faster players in the back.
04:16So that's always been the case.
04:17And hopefully, that's where rugby
04:19can sort of differentiate itself
04:21maybe from other sports
04:21and show that actually,
04:23it is a game for all shapes and sizes.
04:24And hopefully, that appeals to many people.
04:27I mean, I think similar to that Ben Coles
04:30is that it seems that women's rugby
04:32has taken steps to correct
04:33some of the criticisms we've seen
04:35about other sports,
04:36things like tennis, football.
04:38They offer mental health support
04:39to those that are in the limelight.
04:41There's lots of accredited media outlets,
04:43family-friendly environments at matches,
04:46perhaps much more so than football or rugby.
04:49Do you think that there's been a conscious effort
04:51to make this the case?
04:52Or do you think that this is a natural transformation
04:54given the rising popularity amongst younger groups?
04:59No, I think you're right.
05:00I think a lot of effort has gone into exploring
05:02how we can make sure these athletes
05:04kind of progress throughout their careers,
05:06ensuring that there's, you know,
05:07we're actually giving them
05:08the best possible medical care.
05:10We're still making advancements in this area.
05:12We're still at the very start
05:13of making sure that players, for example,
05:15have specialist kind of boots made,
05:17that players have like thorough
05:18kind of maternity leave programs
05:19if they want to have children
05:20and how they come back.
05:21This is very much at its early stages.
05:24But I think what we're seeing
05:25is that rugby's made a really kind of important effort
05:28to try and strengthen in those areas
05:29and to try and make the game
05:31as easy for those athletes who do, you know,
05:33however they sort of approach the sport,
05:35ensuring that we have enough research
05:37in terms of concussion, for example,
05:39which is a huge issue
05:40in the men's and women's game.
05:41So we're going to be seeing
05:42these smart mouth guards
05:43during this competition
05:44where you see a mouth guard
05:46kind of flashing up red.
05:47That's going to be a sign of a concussion.
05:49And we're going to make sure
05:49that those players get given
05:51the most appropriate care.
05:52I think those kind of listed advancements
05:54are all big, big deals and big moments.
05:57But actually, we're just at the start
05:59of developing this
06:00and making sure that
06:01seeing how we can improve the women's game
06:03and giving those players
06:03the best kind of care possible.
06:06Before we get to this tournament specifically, Ben,
06:09do you think there have been downsides
06:10to this rapid success?
06:11I've already seen complaints
06:13that players are underpaid.
06:16Now, that's underpaid.
06:17I think that's a recurring theme
06:18for a lot of sports.
06:20But also that there's a widening gap
06:22between the top teams and the others.
06:24How can some of these concerns be rectified
06:27or can they be rectified
06:28in an industry that ultimately
06:29is driven by profits to a certain extent?
06:35You're absolutely right.
06:36There's kind of a disparity at the moment
06:37between teams who have professional contracts,
06:40teams who offer semi-pro contracts,
06:42a lot of teams who aren't paying
06:44their players at all.
06:44And naturally, when you sort of have
06:47that kind of difference
06:47between teams that are getting paid
06:49and teams that aren't,
06:50teams that can afford to have players
06:51who are full-time professionals on salaries
06:54and other players who are managing part-time jobs
06:57or who have to kind of hold down a job full-time
06:59and then just train when they can,
07:01then you're going to get a disparity on the field
07:03because you're going to see
07:04there's a difference in preparation,
07:06which is critical.
07:06I think the long-term feeling and hope
07:09will be that this World Cup
07:10will generate enough revenue
07:11that we can start hopefully leveling out
07:13that playing field moving forward
07:14and that by the time we're at,
07:16I don't know,
07:16three or four more tournaments down the line,
07:18we have more teams who are fully paid,
07:21teams who are getting paid
07:22kind of equal salaries as well,
07:24who are getting the same kind of preparation
07:25and off-field support.
07:27And then once that's in place,
07:28then you will get less kind of mismatches
07:31and big scorelines,
07:32which inevitably will happen at this World Cup
07:35because some teams are better prepared than others.
07:37But ideally, in the future,
07:38we'll get more of a level playing field
07:40because there'll be more money to go around.
07:42Ben Coles, we only have a couple of seconds left.
07:44I just want to talk about this year's tournament.
07:4716 teams competing.
07:48Who do you think is favored?
07:52It has to be England.
07:53They've won the last 27 matches that they've played
07:56since they lost the last World Cup final.
07:57And that's a huge, incredible, unbeaten run
08:00where they've scored loads of points
08:01and they've been pushed close a couple of times
08:04by teams like France and teams like New Zealand.
08:06But the fact that they're at home,
08:08they have the strongest squad of players.
08:09Other teams have outstanding individuals,
08:12but England's depth is the best.
08:14I think all of those factors together,
08:16a home final and took them in front of 80,000,
08:18yeah, England have to be the favorites.
08:20Ben Coles, thank you so much.
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