00:00Hi, everybody. I'm Brittany Lewis, a breaking news reporter here at Forbes. Joining me now
00:07is Dr. Abby Morono, a behavioral scientist and nonverbal communication expert. Dr. Morono,
00:12thank you so much for joining me. Thank you so much for having me.
00:16The entire world had their eyes on a series of meetings, the first being between President
00:21Trump and Russian President Putin in Alaska. A few days later, President Trump then met
00:26with Ukrainian President Zelensky. And analysts, lawmakers and experts all broke down what was
00:32said. But I'm curious if you can discuss maybe what wasn't said. I want you to break down the
00:38nonverbal cues here. As a body language expert, what stuck out to you? Well, the first thing was
00:44the greeting. So let's look at Putin first. It seemed really warm and friendly. Trump greeted
00:53Putin on the tarmac. He clapped. He had broad smiles. He used physical gestures like a supportive
01:00hand on the arm. And all of these behaviors showed genuine affection. And both leaders showed really
01:07authentic expressions of happiness with genuine smiles during the greeting. It kind of felt like
01:14a reunion of friends. And Putin was the first to extend his hand. So he showed a lot of enthusiasm.
01:23And then as it got to the actual summit, what I thought was really interesting was in political
01:30settings, speaking first is often a subtle power play. But at the summit, despite being the host,
01:38Trump actually deferred to Putin and allowed him to take the first word. And that small decision
01:45shifted the balance of perceived control. And it subtly reinforced Putin's authority right from the
01:52offset. Now, this can be interpreted in several ways. But given the warmth of that initial greeting
01:58that we just spoke about, I think that it was more a display of courtesy than concession.
02:03And then when you're looking at Monday, just a few days later, at the White House, President Trump
02:09welcomed Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky. How did President Trump himself change from warmly
02:16greeting Putin to his body language in Alaska versus the White House just a couple of days later?
02:21This was a really interesting contrast. Because unlike the smiles and celebratory gestures used with
02:29Putin, Trump's body language towards Zelensky was a lot more restrained. He did offer a handshake,
02:36but it lacked that same enthusiasm. His handshake with Zelensky was firmer, faster. And there was none
02:45of that patting or pulling that we see with Putin. So it looked more transitional than warm. And he still
02:52showed a classic dominance cue, which we see often where he rotates his palm to the top, pulls Zelensky's
02:58arm towards him and positions himself kind of as a physical anchor. But it felt more transactional.
03:06And even in the facial expressions, he showed less genuine smiling. He did show some smiling,
03:13but it was tighter, more pressed lips, and the eyes were less engaged. So it felt more formal than friendly.
03:22And this was obviously, based on what was said, a contrast from the White House meeting back in
03:29February between Zelensky and Trump, which was really ultimately boiled down to a screaming match.
03:34What stuck out to you about Zelensky this time around?
03:38He was very contained. He should always contained resistance. So he often responded not with matching
03:49dominance, but with controlled gestures, like sighs, eye rolls, upward glances to the ceiling quite a lot.
03:59And these can be leakage cues of frustration. So this idea of I don't really want to engage,
04:07or I want to disengage without directly challenging Trump. I also noticed that his posture was leaned back
04:16or turned away at times, and it created this physical distance. Now orientation behavior,
04:22I always really look for because if we think back into evolutionary history, if there was a threat or
04:28something that we didn't like, maybe it was something that could harm us, we would try and move away from
04:34it. And our nervous system is saying run. But we obviously can't run and leave these situations.
04:40So often the body will do the next best thing and try and create some physical distance, which is why
04:46you often see that orientation away or that lean back. And it suggests discomfort or an attempt to
04:53almost reject the interaction, but trying to maintain composure. So it seemed like he was trying to
05:00maintain diplomatic composure whilst signaling discomfort. And there was also these fleeting grimaces.
05:10So he had very tight lips. And these can often be signs of suppressed irritation or disagreement.
05:17And that would make sense given the nature of the interaction. And these moments really reflect
05:24inattention, but trying to maintain control. So that's what I got from his body language that it was
05:31very controlled. He was trying to be very diplomatic, but there were these leakage cues of discomfort.
05:37I'm curious, in your experience, how much does culture play a part here? Are Americans more likely
05:44to show more with their nonverbal cues than other countries? Because obviously, President Trump's from
05:51America, Putin's from Russia, and Zelensky's from Ukraine. So how much does culture play a part here?
05:57Culture does play a really important part. Here, what I'm looking for more is the differences on
06:04baselines from their previous interactions. So looking at Trump across interactions, and seeing
06:11where he differs, because often that can give us a more accurate indication of that person,
06:17rather than comparing person to person per se, because as you said, culture does play a part.
06:23What you do see in American culture, and coming from British culture myself, I noticed this when I
06:30moved here, Americans are very animated, and very bold. And from the UK, we're more reserved. Now,
06:40what is interesting is Russians tend to also be a little bit more reserved as well. But Putin was was
06:49quite bold with his behaviors. And I think it was this attempt to show not youth, but showing that he's
06:58he's still active, he's still able to be here, he's still got a lot of energy. And I think he showed
07:04that quite well, because he still looked controlled, but he looked very energetic.
07:08Are other leaders from around the world turned off by the boldness and the animation from American leaders?
07:17I think if you watch a lot of the political debates, what I tend to see is
07:24because the other cultures try and match it a little bit. Because there is this perception that
07:30who takes up the most space has the most dominance, and has the most power. And that is what we tend
07:37to see people who are very bold are perceived as more dominant. So often when you have American
07:43politicians go to other nations, or other nations come here, you see them adapt their body language a
07:49little bit more and become a little bit bolder. And I always think that that's quite interesting that
07:55you can see a lot of in the press, I guess, negative
08:02verbals towards the American nonverbals, that they complain about the boldness and the dominance.
08:12But then you do see them match the dominance when they're actually interaction interacting.
08:17I'm also curious about how much location plays a part when you're looking at these nonverbal cues,
08:23because both meetings were in America. Obviously, President Trump, I'm just assuming here,
08:29felt more comfortable in the White House, since that is his domain. I mean,
08:33there it is called home team advantage for a reason. Yeah.
08:36Also, he met Putin in Alaska, which is American territory. Does that play a part here?
08:41It can do. And you see this more with politicians more early in their career.
08:46But just like anything, it becomes second nature. But there is definitely, like you said,
08:51like a home team advantage, where when you are in your space, it's your sense of safety.
08:57Going into somebody else's space, it feels less comfortable. So when I'm looking at someone else
09:05who has gone into another person's space, and I see displays of anxiety or discomfort,
09:11I tend to be less harsh on those, because you would expect to see a few more,
09:19not because of the interaction itself, but because of the general context. For example,
09:24if you're looking at someone in an interview, and you're wanting to see if they are having negative
09:30feelings towards the interviewer, you have to take some of those displays of anxiety as context
09:35dependent and expected, and say, Okay, I'm seeing some here. But it's possible because of the context
09:42itself naturally increases anxiety. And that is what you see a little bit when it comes to politicians
09:48going to other countries. But again, as they go through their career, the more seasoned the politician,
09:55the more comfortable, it's really obvious that they become.
09:58That's really making me aware of even how I'm blinking right now, because I'm sure you're
10:04picking up on things that I'm not trying to give away, you know, I'm not trying to
10:08play my hand out here. But I'm curious, just based on these nonverbal cues, because it seems like they
10:13were, from your perspective here, two totally different meetings between Trump and Putin and
10:18Trump and Zelensky. Who do you think are the winners and losers in your eyes?
10:23Well, I don't think there's winners and losers per se. I think there's often a battle of dominance.
10:29And that can come across as who won or lost. I think with Zelensky, Trump really leaned into these
10:38overt displays of dominance. So he did a lot of finger pointing, and he actually interrupted
10:44quite a lot. And there was more of a controlling tempo. And this visibly created these tense dynamics
10:51where Zelensky leaked out frustration cues. So in that interaction, it did look like Trump really
10:59had the upper hand if we're talking in terms of who appeared more powerful. With Putin, Trump showed
11:06softer displays. And he, you know, when he said you can speak first, he's passing over some of the
11:11dominance. But then with the handshake, there was an attempt to regain some dominance. So there was hand
11:17pats. And he also did a guiding gesture on Putin's back. So there was more of a back and forth. But
11:25during the interactions with Putin, Trump himself showed a little bit of discomfort. So there was
11:31more of a power struggle. So it felt more strategic, not explosive, but subtle. So I think overall with
11:40Zelensky, Trump's body language revealed more open conflict and more dominance. But with Putin, it was
11:46more controlled tension. And what President Trump wanted next is a meeting between Putin and Zelensky,
11:53a bilateral meeting with those two leaders, and then potentially a trilateral meeting where he would
11:58join them. But it seemed like that could potentially happen. Just today, though,
12:03Russia's top diplomat said it wasn't happening. Nothing's planned yet. And the agenda is not ready at
12:09all for that meeting. Based on the nonverbal cues you witnessed last week, and then this week with
12:15Zelensky, does that surprise you? That does not surprise me. I think it was really evident that
12:22Zelensky was frustrated. And he appeared very disengaged. And when you look at this summit with
12:30Putin, towards the end, Trump actually looked very disengaged. So I think that there is an overall fatigue
12:38happening here between, I didn't see that at all with Putin. But I did see fatigue with both Trump
12:44and Zelensky. So it doesn't surprise me if there isn't that proceedings going forward.
12:51Dr. Abby Morono, I appreciate you breaking down what wasn't said at these meetings. And as we see
12:58larger events and meetings like this, I hope you can come back on and join me and break it down even
13:03further. Thank you again. You're welcome back anytime. Absolutely. Thank you so much for having me.
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