Body Language Expert Isn't Surprised Putin-Zelensky Meeting Off Based On These Cues From US Meetings

Forbes Breaking News

Behavioral scientist and body language expert Dr. Abbie Maroño joined "Forbes Newsroom" to discuss share her take on President Trump's meetings with Russian President Vladimir Putin and Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky.

Transcript

00:00Hi, everybody. I'm Brittany Lewis, a breaking news reporter here at Forbes. Joining me now

00:07is Dr. Abby Morono, a behavioral scientist and nonverbal communication expert. Dr. Morono,

00:12thank you so much for joining me. Thank you so much for having me.

00:16The entire world had their eyes on a series of meetings, the first being between President

00:21Trump and Russian President Putin in Alaska. A few days later, President Trump then met

00:26with Ukrainian President Zelensky. And analysts, lawmakers and experts all broke down what was

00:32said. But I'm curious if you can discuss maybe what wasn't said. I want you to break down the

00:38nonverbal cues here. As a body language expert, what stuck out to you? Well, the first thing was

00:44the greeting. So let's look at Putin first. It seemed really warm and friendly. Trump greeted

00:53Putin on the tarmac. He clapped. He had broad smiles. He used physical gestures like a supportive

01:00hand on the arm. And all of these behaviors showed genuine affection. And both leaders showed really

01:07authentic expressions of happiness with genuine smiles during the greeting. It kind of felt like

01:14a reunion of friends. And Putin was the first to extend his hand. So he showed a lot of enthusiasm.

01:23And then as it got to the actual summit, what I thought was really interesting was in political

01:30settings, speaking first is often a subtle power play. But at the summit, despite being the host,

01:38Trump actually deferred to Putin and allowed him to take the first word. And that small decision

01:45shifted the balance of perceived control. And it subtly reinforced Putin's authority right from the

01:52offset. Now, this can be interpreted in several ways. But given the warmth of that initial greeting

01:58that we just spoke about, I think that it was more a display of courtesy than concession.

02:03And then when you're looking at Monday, just a few days later, at the White House, President Trump

02:09welcomed Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky. How did President Trump himself change from warmly

02:16greeting Putin to his body language in Alaska versus the White House just a couple of days later?

02:21This was a really interesting contrast. Because unlike the smiles and celebratory gestures used with

02:29Putin, Trump's body language towards Zelensky was a lot more restrained. He did offer a handshake,

02:36but it lacked that same enthusiasm. His handshake with Zelensky was firmer, faster. And there was none

02:45of that patting or pulling that we see with Putin. So it looked more transitional than warm. And he still

02:52showed a classic dominance cue, which we see often where he rotates his palm to the top, pulls Zelensky's

02:58arm towards him and positions himself kind of as a physical anchor. But it felt more transactional.

03:06And even in the facial expressions, he showed less genuine smiling. He did show some smiling,

03:13but it was tighter, more pressed lips, and the eyes were less engaged. So it felt more formal than friendly.

03:22And this was obviously, based on what was said, a contrast from the White House meeting back in

03:29February between Zelensky and Trump, which was really ultimately boiled down to a screaming match.

03:34What stuck out to you about Zelensky this time around?

03:38He was very contained. He should always contained resistance. So he often responded not with matching

03:49dominance, but with controlled gestures, like sighs, eye rolls, upward glances to the ceiling quite a lot.

03:59And these can be leakage cues of frustration. So this idea of I don't really want to engage,

04:07or I want to disengage without directly challenging Trump. I also noticed that his posture was leaned back

04:16or turned away at times, and it created this physical distance. Now orientation behavior,

04:22I always really look for because if we think back into evolutionary history, if there was a threat or

04:28something that we didn't like, maybe it was something that could harm us, we would try and move away from

04:34it. And our nervous system is saying run. But we obviously can't run and leave these situations.

04:40So often the body will do the next best thing and try and create some physical distance, which is why

04:46you often see that orientation away or that lean back. And it suggests discomfort or an attempt to

04:53almost reject the interaction, but trying to maintain composure. So it seemed like he was trying to

05:00maintain diplomatic composure whilst signaling discomfort. And there was also these fleeting grimaces.

05:10So he had very tight lips. And these can often be signs of suppressed irritation or disagreement.

05:17And that would make sense given the nature of the interaction. And these moments really reflect

05:24inattention, but trying to maintain control. So that's what I got from his body language that it was

05:31very controlled. He was trying to be very diplomatic, but there were these leakage cues of discomfort.

05:37I'm curious, in your experience, how much does culture play a part here? Are Americans more likely

05:44to show more with their nonverbal cues than other countries? Because obviously, President Trump's from

05:51America, Putin's from Russia, and Zelensky's from Ukraine. So how much does culture play a part here?

05:57Culture does play a really important part. Here, what I'm looking for more is the differences on

06:04baselines from their previous interactions. So looking at Trump across interactions, and seeing

06:11where he differs, because often that can give us a more accurate indication of that person,

06:17rather than comparing person to person per se, because as you said, culture does play a part.

06:23What you do see in American culture, and coming from British culture myself, I noticed this when I

06:30moved here, Americans are very animated, and very bold. And from the UK, we're more reserved. Now,

06:40what is interesting is Russians tend to also be a little bit more reserved as well. But Putin was was

06:49quite bold with his behaviors. And I think it was this attempt to show not youth, but showing that he's

06:58he's still active, he's still able to be here, he's still got a lot of energy. And I think he showed

07:04that quite well, because he still looked controlled, but he looked very energetic.

07:08Are other leaders from around the world turned off by the boldness and the animation from American leaders?

07:17I think if you watch a lot of the political debates, what I tend to see is

07:24because the other cultures try and match it a little bit. Because there is this perception that

07:30who takes up the most space has the most dominance, and has the most power. And that is what we tend

07:37to see people who are very bold are perceived as more dominant. So often when you have American

07:43politicians go to other nations, or other nations come here, you see them adapt their body language a

07:49little bit more and become a little bit bolder. And I always think that that's quite interesting that

07:55you can see a lot of in the press, I guess, negative

08:02verbals towards the American nonverbals, that they complain about the boldness and the dominance.

08:12But then you do see them match the dominance when they're actually interaction interacting.

08:17I'm also curious about how much location plays a part when you're looking at these nonverbal cues,

08:23because both meetings were in America. Obviously, President Trump, I'm just assuming here,

08:29felt more comfortable in the White House, since that is his domain. I mean,

08:33there it is called home team advantage for a reason. Yeah.

08:36Also, he met Putin in Alaska, which is American territory. Does that play a part here?

08:41It can do. And you see this more with politicians more early in their career.

08:46But just like anything, it becomes second nature. But there is definitely, like you said,

08:51like a home team advantage, where when you are in your space, it's your sense of safety.

08:57Going into somebody else's space, it feels less comfortable. So when I'm looking at someone else

09:05who has gone into another person's space, and I see displays of anxiety or discomfort,

09:11I tend to be less harsh on those, because you would expect to see a few more,

09:19not because of the interaction itself, but because of the general context. For example,

09:24if you're looking at someone in an interview, and you're wanting to see if they are having negative

09:30feelings towards the interviewer, you have to take some of those displays of anxiety as context

09:35dependent and expected, and say, Okay, I'm seeing some here. But it's possible because of the context

09:42itself naturally increases anxiety. And that is what you see a little bit when it comes to politicians

09:48going to other countries. But again, as they go through their career, the more seasoned the politician,

09:55the more comfortable, it's really obvious that they become.

09:58That's really making me aware of even how I'm blinking right now, because I'm sure you're

10:04picking up on things that I'm not trying to give away, you know, I'm not trying to

10:08play my hand out here. But I'm curious, just based on these nonverbal cues, because it seems like they

10:13were, from your perspective here, two totally different meetings between Trump and Putin and

10:18Trump and Zelensky. Who do you think are the winners and losers in your eyes?

10:23Well, I don't think there's winners and losers per se. I think there's often a battle of dominance.

10:29And that can come across as who won or lost. I think with Zelensky, Trump really leaned into these

10:38overt displays of dominance. So he did a lot of finger pointing, and he actually interrupted

10:44quite a lot. And there was more of a controlling tempo. And this visibly created these tense dynamics

10:51where Zelensky leaked out frustration cues. So in that interaction, it did look like Trump really

10:59had the upper hand if we're talking in terms of who appeared more powerful. With Putin, Trump showed

11:06softer displays. And he, you know, when he said you can speak first, he's passing over some of the

11:11dominance. But then with the handshake, there was an attempt to regain some dominance. So there was hand

11:17pats. And he also did a guiding gesture on Putin's back. So there was more of a back and forth. But

11:25during the interactions with Putin, Trump himself showed a little bit of discomfort. So there was

11:31more of a power struggle. So it felt more strategic, not explosive, but subtle. So I think overall with

11:40Zelensky, Trump's body language revealed more open conflict and more dominance. But with Putin, it was

11:46more controlled tension. And what President Trump wanted next is a meeting between Putin and Zelensky,

11:53a bilateral meeting with those two leaders, and then potentially a trilateral meeting where he would

11:58join them. But it seemed like that could potentially happen. Just today, though,

12:03Russia's top diplomat said it wasn't happening. Nothing's planned yet. And the agenda is not ready at

12:09all for that meeting. Based on the nonverbal cues you witnessed last week, and then this week with

12:15Zelensky, does that surprise you? That does not surprise me. I think it was really evident that

12:22Zelensky was frustrated. And he appeared very disengaged. And when you look at this summit with

12:30Putin, towards the end, Trump actually looked very disengaged. So I think that there is an overall fatigue

12:38happening here between, I didn't see that at all with Putin. But I did see fatigue with both Trump

12:44and Zelensky. So it doesn't surprise me if there isn't that proceedings going forward.

12:51Dr. Abby Morono, I appreciate you breaking down what wasn't said at these meetings. And as we see

12:58larger events and meetings like this, I hope you can come back on and join me and break it down even

13:03further. Thank you again. You're welcome back anytime. Absolutely. Thank you so much for having me.

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