'One Of Things I Wish We Could Disinvent': Luttrell Joined By Dems In Call For Cluster Bomb Ban

4 months ago

During a House Armed Services Committee hearing in July, Rep. Morgan Luttrell (R-TX) introduced an amendment that would "prohibit any funds to furnish, export or sell, transfer cluster munitions." Luttrell was joined by Democrats in support of his amendment.

Transcript

00:00We will now consider log number 4967 by Mr. Luttrell. For what purpose does a gentleman

00:08from Texas seek recognition? Mr. Chairman, I have an amendment at the desk. Will the clerk

00:12please distribute the amendment without objection? The reading of the amendment is dispensed with.

00:16The chair and I recognize the gentleman from Texas for the purpose of explaining his amendment.

00:20Thank you, Mr. Chairman. This amendment would prohibit any funds to furnish, export, or sell,

00:24transfer cluster munitions or its technology. I want to thank the young lady from California,

00:31Mr. Jacobs, for joining me on this. Cluster munitions have a documented failure rate.

00:36These exploded bombets become de facto landmines, injuring and killing civilians, including children.

00:43Long after conflicts have ceased, the cluster munitions monitor of 2023 reported that over 96%

00:50of cluster munitions casualties in recent years have been civilians, and two-thirds of those being

00:55children. In 2025, we have technologies that you can launch from a rotor wing or fixed wing aircraft,

01:02you can probably launch from here and park it on a license plate. And when the advancements of drone

01:08technology and swarm technology, you can touch anything anywhere with no residual effect, i.e.

01:14killing our babies. In my personal opinion, having seen cluster bombs in action, that's one of the

01:19things I wish we could disinvent. I know Ms. Jacobs and I probably stand alone on this,

01:25but I honestly think this is a valued effort. And with that, I yield back.

01:31The gentleman yields back, Chair, and I recognize the gentle lady from Pennsylvania, Ms. Houlihan.

01:39Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and you do not stand alone. As the co-chair of the Unexploded Ordinance

01:45and Demining Caucus, I am very proud to support this amendment offered by Representatives Jacobs and

01:50Luttrell that would prohibit the production use and transfer of cluster munitions. These indiscriminate

01:57weapons litter small bombs over large areas with little control over where the explosives falls,

02:03posing significant risks to civilians in the area. Cluster submunitions have a very high failure rate,

02:09between 2 and 40 percent, either failing to detonate or breaking apart in the air, and unexploded bombs

02:16or fragments can remain volatile for years. This prolongs the risk to civilians for years after

02:22fighting stops, particularly a risk to children. More than 100 countries have already banned the use of

02:28cluster munitions because of the disproportionate risk they pose to civilians, and it's time for the U.S.

02:34to do the same. So I urge my colleagues to vote in favor of this amendment, and with that I yield.

02:44Chair and I recognize the gentleman from Virginia, Mr. Whitman.

02:46Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Listen, I appreciate my colleagues' effort to put this bill forward. It's

02:52the continual argument back and forth. There's a moral argument to talk about what cluster munitions

02:58result in, but on the other side the moral argument is what do we do to prevent adversaries from using

03:03cluster munitions? The way you deter that is to make sure that you have the ability to use that. The

03:09dud rate on our cluster munitions is incredibly low. Not fail proof, but incredibly low. We know too

03:16that when we have low weapons magazine capability as we have today, we want to make sure we have everything

03:24there at our disposal to make sure that we're deterring our adversaries. These munitions, as objectionable

03:33as they are, do allow us to make sure that when necessary we're able to defend our interests. And we

03:40want to make sure too that we're helping our allies. The munitions that we transfer are ones with, as I said,

03:49very, very, very low failure rates. And by transferring these dual purpose improved conventional munitions,

03:56the DPICMs, we preserve our limited 155 stockpiles, which today is incredibly low. And

04:04we are able to at least create the deterrence there. And folks said, well, you know,

04:08you can use other means to deter. Remember, deterrence is about using the same level of threat

04:14that keep your adversaries from even being tempted to use this. If you use other threats that are

04:20greater, you end up escalating those back and forths. I would argue that if you want to create

04:28the largest potential to deter adversaries from using cluster munitions, you have to be able to say,

04:34if you use yours, we will use ours. That idea, and we heard it earlier with nuclear arms, we heard the idea

04:41of mutually assured destruction is a very, very strong deterrent. I want to make sure,

04:46first of all, that we are using the weapons that we have in our inventory to defend U.S. interests,

04:52understanding the moral arguments on both sides of this. But I want to make sure too that we still

04:57have the deterrent effect to deter our adversaries from using these. And too, when we have challenges

05:04with weapons magazines, that we don't limit ourselves in the ability for us to be able to

05:09protect our interests around the world. I know there's a lot of back and forth in this. There

05:14are valid moral arguments to be made on both sides. Listen, I respect my colleagues in bringing this

05:20up. It's a continual effort. I appreciate my colleague from the great state of Texas and his

05:27passion for this. But I just want to make sure too that we're looking at all the impacts of this

05:32proposed ban on cluster munitions from United States stockpiles.

05:38The gentleman yields back. Chair, I recognize General Aid from Hawaii, Ms. Takuda.

05:43Thank you, Mr. Chair. I rise in support of Representative Jacobs and the

05:47Trails Amendment to ban cluster munitions. Cluster munitions aren't deterrents. They're indiscriminate

05:53killers. And while not cluster munitions, Hawaii and the Pacific Islands understand, sadly, the pain and

06:01frustration of unexploded ordinances. Looking in at your ancestral homeland, where you can no longer

06:08live or walk. Every new discovery, and they come often, a scary reminder that when it comes to UXOs,

06:16the dangers of war live on to haunt generation after generation. Now times this by a hundred in terms of

06:24impact, the terror, the harm that cluster munitions have on people and communities around the world.

06:32And that is why this amendment is so important. Due to the high failure rates of these munitions,

06:38and let's be clear, low failure rates still kill. These exponential amounts of unexploded ordinances that

06:47litter the world right now as a result of these bombings kill and maim primarily civilians, as was

06:53mentioned, making up 96 percent of all casualties, including and especially children who are likely

07:00to pick up these unexploded ordinances. It's the casualties after the war, with thousands losing

07:06life and limb every single year. We've spent billions cleaning up cluster munitions from battlefields.

07:11Most of our allies, as have been mentioned, banned these munitions by signing on to the Convention

07:16on Cluster Munitions, recognizing their use as a violation of international humanitarian law.

07:22The future of warfare is not cluster munitions. It's drones, other unmanned vehicles, cyber,

07:29missile defense, electromagnetic warfare. We all do want lethality. We want deterrence,

07:35but let's focus on platforms that truly reduce civilian harm and hit, actually hit their intended targets,

07:43and not innocent victims that happen to be walking through a field.

07:48That means not doubling down on these damaging and unnecessary munitions. That means banning these

07:55altogether in terms of cluster munitions. Thank you again to the sponsors of this amendment,

08:02and I ask that all join us in supporting this amendment's passage. Thank you, and I yield back.

08:07Generality yields back. Chairman, I recognize the gentleman from South Carolina, Mr. Wilson.

08:10Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I strongly oppose this amendment. It is important to point out that the

08:16United States is not part of the Convention on Cluster Munitions. Prohibiting funds for or the

08:22transfer of cluster munitions would not only limit American capability, but Ukrainian ability to push

08:29back war criminal Putin with his mass murder of civilians evading Ukraine. Russia is currently

08:37utilizing every weapon in their arsenal, including cluster munitions and possibly including chemical

08:44weapons to murder civilians and hit civilian infrastructure. Prohibiting the transfer of cluster

08:51munitions would handicap Ukraine, and its biggest beneficiary would be war criminal Putin. The U.S. should not

08:59restrict Ukrainian ability to defend themselves when they are the ones requesting these types of munitions

09:04for defense of Ukrainian sovereignty to achieve peace through strength. There are legitimate issues of

09:11unexploded cluster munitions, but a reminder is Ukraine is requesting them. Also, compared to Russia,

09:19which is not part of the Convention, there are unexploded ordinances are high from the Russian Federation.

09:27The U.S. has worked responsibly to lower the rates of unexploded cluster ordinances, and Russia

09:34doesn't do as Ukraine, and that Ukraine is also aware of areas they are utilizing, which will be

09:40helpful once the conflict is over, to reduce and eliminate the number of exploded ordinances. I urge my

09:47colleagues to oppose the amendment. I yield back. The gentleman yields back. Chairman, I recognize the

09:51general aide from California, Ms. Jacobs. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank you to my colleague, Mr. Luttrell,

09:58for co-leading and leading this effort with me. I appreciate his efforts. Look, most U.S. allies, including

10:04most NATO members, have signed the Convention on Cluster Munitions, but we haven't. And that's a mistake,

10:09because these weapons leave behind unexploded landmines that maim and kill civilians indiscriminately.

10:14In 2021, the Landmine and Cluster Munitions Monitor found that over 97% of casualties from cluster bomb

10:21remnants were civilians, and two-thirds of those were children. Two-thirds of those were children.

10:26And that's because these deadly weapons don't look like weapons, but they do look interesting to kids,

10:32so when kids find these weapons in trees, or in the water, or simply on the ground, they try and pick

10:37them up, and they can end up losing a limb or their life. And we know even our cluster munitions'

10:44dud rates are consistently higher than expected in war zones. But this is not just a moral argument.

10:49It is a strategic and financial one. These weapons are incredibly costly. Since 1993,

10:56the United States has spent nearly $5 billion on cleaning up these weapons. As of last year,

11:01we were still paying to clean up cluster munitions. The United States dropped in Laos because they were

11:05still killing civilians. Continuing to transfer cluster munitions is not just a moral stain on

11:11the U.S. reputation around the world, but a fiscally irresponsible one for years to come.

11:18And to my colleague's argument about deterrence, imagine saying we should use chemical weapons to

11:23deter chemical weapons. I mean, it makes no sense because it makes no sense. We shouldn't just do

11:29something just because Russia is also doing it and doing it worse. That's like the first thing we

11:35teach kids. No amount of guardrails for cluster munitions are enough. We need to ban the transfer

11:41of these weapons entirely, and now is our opportunity to do that, to do the right thing and protect

11:47civilians, especially kids. Now is our chance to restore our reputation, to live up to our values.

11:52This is a bipartisan amendment. I urge my colleagues on both sides of the aisle to support it.

11:56Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I yield back.

11:58Chair and the lady yields back. Chair and I recognize the gentleman from Massachusetts, Mr. Moulton.

12:02Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. I want first of all to acknowledge the very valid and serious

12:09concerns that my colleagues on both sides of the aisle have raised with this amendment. And I am all

12:16for a treaty banning cluster munitions that we can all sign on to. But we can't unilaterally disarm,

12:24especially in the midst of the brutal war in Ukraine. I also want to appreciate my colleague

12:30from Virginia, Mr. Whitman, for citing, and I quote, the strong arguments that we heard earlier

12:35explaining the importance of mutually assured destruction and how that's critical for deterrence,

12:40which I think is the strongest case I've heard yet for my amendment to restore that bipartisan language

12:45to our strategic defense policy, which unfortunately he voted against. But the point is that Ukraine

12:52wants these weapons for their own territory. And who better to make that determination than them?

13:01We all care about kids. You know what kills kids in the U.S.? Firearms. Firearms are a leading cause of

13:09death for children and adolescents ages 1 to 17. In fact, one of the worst things you can do to increase

13:16that risk is simply having guns in your own home. But I don't think you want this committee to come

13:23and tell you whether or not you can have guns in your home in Texas, even though it would statistically

13:31help your kids. But that's what we're telling Ukraine. That's what we're saying to Ukraine.

13:37In this case, the cluster munitions have demonstrably helped them in the conflict. They have made

13:44the tough decision, the tough determination that they are willing to take the risk

13:52of casualties from unexploded ordinance in order to win this war, to protect their kids from Russia,

14:00a country that's already kidnapped thousands of them and is trying to kill thousands more on the

14:07battlefield. So I think we should leave that decision to them and support them however we

14:13can in this war. Very valid concerns. But in this case, the tough decision is the right decision to

14:21get them the weapons that they need. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Gentleman yields back. Chairman, I recognize

14:25the ranking member. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I appreciate my colleagues compelling arguments and but for

14:31Ukraine, I'd probably be with them. But the problem is Russia is doing what they're doing in Ukraine.

14:38And the argument about unexploded ordinance on the battlefield is a legitimate one.

14:44Except the more Russia succeeds, the more unexploded ordinance there is going to be in Ukraine.

14:51Russia has used cluster munitions throughout Ukraine indiscriminately. They've also

14:56mined the living crap out of Ukraine. There's going to be unexploded ordinance in Ukraine for

15:02generations, which is horrific. And if there was some way to stop that or have prevented that,

15:08I'd be all in favor of it. But given what Russia is doing there, Ukraine needs everything they can

15:15to try to stop them. The longer the war goes on, the more unexploded ordinance you're going to have.

15:20And oh, by the way, the more exploding ordinance that you're going to have. We struggled to provide

15:28the weapons that Ukraine needed to defend themselves. We had cluster munitions. And the decision was to

15:33transfer them to Ukraine. You want to make this about other stuff beyond Ukraine? I think there may

15:39be a strategic argument for that. But in Ukraine, they needed them. And when you are threatened by Russia,

15:45you need them. And they were transferred as a result. It's worth noting, as far as I know, we are not

15:51actually making cluster munitions anymore. These were munitions that we had. So we're not wasting

15:56money on them. And then also, it is interesting on the treaty to not use cluster munitions. One of

16:02the countries that just withdrew from that treaty was Lithuania, because they faced the threat that

16:09Russia's coming at them. So I'm with you. We want to live in a world where cluster munitions aren't used.

16:14I think the U.S. should try to strive to achieve that. But if this amendment were to pass,

16:19Ukraine would be less able to defend itself against Russia, dropping all manner of ordinance

16:26all over Ukraine, unexploded and otherwise. So as a practical matter, this amendment

16:32weakens Ukraine and strengthens Russia in this current moment. And therefore, I cannot support it.

16:36I yield back.

16:39Gentleman yields back. Does any other member wish to speak on Mr. Luttrell's amendment? Seeing none,

16:44the question occurs on the amendment offered by Mr. Luttrell. So many as are in favor will say aye.

16:49Aye. Those opposed, say no. No.

16:53Paying the chair, the no's have it.

16:57The amendment is not agreed. Recorded votes requested. Recorded vote will be postponed.

17:02theHmm

17:05.

17:10.

17:11.

17:12.

'One Of Things I Wish We Could Disinvent': Luttrell Joined By Dems In Call For Cluster Bomb Ban

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