- 4 months ago
Abdoulaye Diop, Minister of Foreign Affairs of Mali, sits down with TeleSUR journalist Marina Aguirre to discuss the latest strengthening of bilateral relations with Venezuela, boosting cooperation in energy, agriculture and health. teleSUR
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00:00Welcome, everyone.
00:12Today we are joined by the Foreign Minister of Mali,
00:16Abdullah Idiob, who is at this moment in Venezuela
00:19in the framework of a work agenda
00:22that seeks to strengthen south-south cooperation.
00:26Both countries have maintained diplomatic relations
00:28for over 40 years
00:31that have been built on the principles of solidarity,
00:35mutual respect and sovereignty.
00:37Minister, thank you for joining us.
00:40Thank you very much.
00:43Well, in this moment, for many years now,
00:46as I've been saying before,
00:48you've been having this relationship, this cooperation,
00:51and you have signed a memorandum.
00:54I wanted to know about this memorandum.
00:56What are the key projects that you agreed to work on?
01:04Well, thank you very much for your question
01:06and also for having me here in this studio.
01:10I'm here today in Caracas
01:12in the framework of a mechanism of political consultation established
01:19between Venezuela and the Republic of Mali after 40 years.
01:24This mechanism allows both countries to be able to carry out regular meetings
01:32to assess the state of our relations
01:34and also to find the means to improve them
01:39and also to exchange regarding issues of national interest,
01:46the regional situation,
01:48and the international situation as well.
01:51to be able to bring even closer to Venezuela and Mali.
01:58The document that we just signed, that is an act,
02:02it has all the results of our discussions and work,
02:05and it's a document that will help us to work in the coming month
02:11in the different sectors that were identified as education, housing,
02:17mining, hydrocarbons, agriculture.
02:23So there are different sectors of interest
02:27so that both countries continue to strengthen our solidity
02:31and complementarity in the framework of a South-South cooperation
02:36with respect for the sovereignty of our states.
02:41Right, and you were talking before about education in particular.
02:46There are several scholarships,
02:49around 30 students from Mali here in Venezuela.
02:52They've been granted scholarships.
02:54Will that also be extended?
02:58For example, are we talking about more scholarships?
03:01What else will deepen this cooperation in education?
03:07That is correct.
03:09Some years now,
03:11Venezuela granted different scholarships to students from Mali
03:16in different sectors.
03:18Some are still studying here
03:20because I met some of them on Sunday.
03:24And over 10 students from Mali
03:27that are still here in Venezuela,
03:28some have finished their studies,
03:30their scholarships,
03:31but they remain to continue training
03:34and carry out their master's degrees.
03:40And well, in 2025,
03:44Venezuela agreed to grant over 30 scholarships for 2026
03:53for the students of Mali.
03:54And well, I met with the highest authorities
03:58and I saw that they are willing,
04:01especially President Maduro,
04:04to give these scholarships to the students from Mali
04:07because it's very important to be able to work.
04:09instead of giving fish to the people,
04:16to teach them how to fish
04:17because this will help and strengthen knowledge
04:21and the strengthening of the capacity for our countries.
04:25And we are very interested
04:27to continue with these scholarships
04:31and that the students can come here and learn
04:34and that they can develop and train in strategic sectors
04:39as it is the nuclear and energy sectors.
04:41Right.
04:42And there's been in the latest days also in all the meetings,
04:48a re-approachment with the Secretary General of Alba TCP,
04:52Rander Peña.
04:53I wanted to know in which way can that link be strengthened
04:57between Mali and Alba TCP?
04:59We see also the dynamics at the regional level,
05:09ALBA, which was established as a dynamic of sovereignty
05:14and dignity here in Latin America.
05:18And it's an experience that is very interesting.
05:21Also in Sahel, Burkina Faso, Mali and Niger,
05:25established a new configuration that is called the Confederation
05:31of Sahel States that works to strengthen common work
05:38with the aim of guaranteeing mutual security and fight
05:41against terrorism and also strengthen our diplomatic actions
05:44so that the three countries can speak with one single voice
05:48and the international arena.
05:50And there's also a third pillar that is the strengthening
05:53of economic integration and the development among our three countries.
05:58Naturally, our organization is based in the concerns
06:05of defending the sovereignty of our country,
06:08of dignity of our country, of our people.
06:11And we are also facing neo-colonial forces and imperial forces
06:16that try to break with this dynamic.
06:19And I believe that these values and principles are also shared by ALBA.
06:24That is why we are talking about the opportunity and the possibility
06:28to be able to get closer and have a dialogue
06:32and a collaboration between ALBA and the Confederation of Sahel States,
06:37which well, and you also in this last meetings,
06:46you have denounced the over 1,000 sanctions
06:50that Venezuela is facing on behalf of the US.
06:53I would like to know in this regard,
06:55and you've also been a million ambassador to the US.
06:59I wanted to know in this context, these denunciations
07:05that you have made for the over 1,000 sanctions,
07:10how can they impact our peoples as well?
07:16Nowadays, well, Venezuela is experiencing a situation
07:20that is kind of similar to the situation
07:23that my country, Mali, is experiencing
07:26and has experienced for three years now.
07:28My country, Mali, was also the target
07:31of these illegal and inhumane sanctions.
07:36And there were also drastic sanctions,
07:40the closure of banks, the closure
07:43of all the borders of the country.
07:45And that was very difficult for our country.
07:50Mali stood strong.
07:51Mali did not want to submit to these impositions
07:55that wanted to break with the political dynamic
07:58and the processes that were occurring in Mali.
08:04Transitional president and the Mali authorities
08:09decided that our country will not endure once more
08:14the imposition of sanctions and coercive measures.
08:18And we work to give our solidarity to all the countries
08:23that are victims of these measures, of these coercive
08:27unilateral measures.
08:28Over 1,000 measures sanctions against Venezuela,
08:31this is unacceptable.
08:33These are measures that go against international law.
08:37And the relations between states must be based
08:41on the respectful sovereignty and solidarity
08:44and collaboration and dialogue.
08:50We admire a lot Venezuela, of course,
08:53because despite these sanctions, President Maduro,
08:58the government, and the people, the Venezuelan people,
09:02face with lots of dignity these challenges
09:08and the determination of the Venezuelan people that
09:12seeks the necessary means to live as a sovereign state.
09:17And we think that the political decisions of Venezuela
09:20must be accepted by all, by the international community.
09:25You were just mentioning that in some way,
09:29Mali has also suffered something similar to what
09:32we were talking about, sanctions on Venezuela.
09:35I would like to know, what is the situation at this moment
09:39and this comparison that you were making with Venezuela
09:43and in some way are also affecting your country?
09:49I have to say that sanctions and the coercitive measures
09:53that were imposed on Venezuela go beyond of what Mali
10:00has experienced very inhumane measures and very heavy,
10:06the sanctions regime and unilateral coercitive measures
10:10against Venezuela.
10:13Speaking of Mali, you know that there
10:14have been political changes in the country.
10:17And these political changes came about due to the insecurity
10:21situation in my country, the situation that is marked by the attack
10:28of terrorist groups.
10:31The security situation in Mali was aggravated
10:34by the intervention of NATO in Libya that had its repercussions
10:41in the north of Mali.
10:43There were separatists and terrorist groups
10:44that were taken there that threatened Mali's security
10:48and demanded the division of our country.
10:51There are many neo-colonial forces and imperial forces
10:55that are hidden behind these forces that want to dominate
11:00and that want to take over our natural resources.
11:04Transitional President General Haisimi Goita and all the government
11:11and the people of Mali are fighting against these impositions.
11:17But Mali also received an important support from the international community
11:24to face these groups, first through the presence
11:29of over 20,000 French soldiers that remain in Mali and the forces
11:36of the United Nations that stayed for 10 years in Mali.
11:41But the situation did not change, so Mali decided to change that paradigm
11:46and to stop depending on foreign forces that we had, that had a different interest
11:53to that of Mali, and we think that the security and defense of our country,
11:58the security and the defense of our people, must be in the hands of Malian people.
12:04That's the decision of Mali, to take control and not depend on other forces
12:10that have other interests and that create tensions with something
12:15that the people call the international community, but did not support at all our interests.
12:22And tell me, what does the Sahel mean nowadays for the integration project in Africa?
12:31Well, the Confederation of Sahel States that was established created a new political configuration
12:43of Western Africa that includes 15 countries.
12:47The Sahel State Confederation has three countries, Burkina Faso, Mali, and Niger.
12:56And these three countries are in a geographic space.
13:08These are three countries that are surrounded by land and face the terrorist threats
13:13that have the same physical characteristics marked by the advance of the desert.
13:21These countries, they have in common the rejection to the neo-colonial impositions,
13:28the rejection to the domination of our countries at the hands of foreign armies,
13:36and also the presence of terrorists or regional organizations,
13:42because we have a regional organization in Western Africa, which is ECOWAS,
13:47the Economic Community of Western African States.
13:55And that they want that powers impose their interest in our country,
14:00but our free countries rejected this dynamic, and we are in a stage to refound our region,
14:08and we want our countries can have the control over their sovereignty, their resources,
14:15and also work together and guarantee the security of our countries.
14:24One of the important paradigms in our country is that we want to depend on ourselves for our security.
14:34Our countries expend approximately 25% of budgets to fight against terrorist groups and guarantee security.
14:41This implies that today our countries are in a dynamic of emancipation,
14:49and not continue to follow the impositions of neo-colonial and imperial forces,
14:56even with some countries of our regions that have the interest of imposing their will
15:02and submit Mali or the states of the Confederation.
15:06That is why our countries have the same challenges that Venezuela,
15:11because every time that our leaders and our countries decide, take control,
15:20to take on their destiny and take economic decisions that do not go in the same direction
15:28than what the world governance wants, so then they want to create tensions,
15:36and they have the pretext of promoting democracy and human rights.
15:41They want to impose a policy of double standards, because what happens in Mali,
15:49well, there are other countries that do the same, but the powers support them.
15:56But we are countries that decided to say no, we want to take control of our own destinies,
16:02and in summary, what I can say is that our free countries, we are in a dynamic of emancipation.
16:07We want to renew pan-africanism and work nowadays so that there is a multi-polar world,
16:19multi-centric world that allows each country to contribute to the respect of the dignity of its people,
16:27but also so that the decisions that countries make are respected,
16:34and also the decision of partners, because many of our countries are not allowed to choose with whom we can work with.
16:42Today, Mali comes to Venezuela to have brotherly relationships with Venezuela,
16:49but Mali can work with all the countries of the world that respect sovereignty of Mali,
16:57that respect the sovereign decision of Mali, even the decision to choose our partners and respect the dignity of the population.
17:11So, we are seeing that our countries are going in the same direction.
17:16Without a doubt, Russia and also China are countries that have cooperated with Mali and continue to do so.
17:26So, how do you evaluate the role of this power such as Russia and China in this context?
17:34Well, they cannot think we are fools. All the countries of the world, big or small, each go and defend their interests.
17:50Mali will continue its own interests and those of its people.
17:56China, Russia, our strategic partners of Mali, Russia, for example, helped us, giving us access to acquire weapons
18:11and military airplanes to guarantee the security of our country,
18:17to be able to be in charge of our own security.
18:21And we take on this responsibility. With China, we also have the same relationship.
18:26So, there are alliances that we make easily and are based on our own resources.
18:34Well, unfortunately, and for a very long time, many countries, European countries or the U.S.,
18:42rejected that our country had access to our own weapons. These weapons were sold to the terrorist groups.
18:55When the war in Ukraine began, we saw the amount of weapons that were given to Ukraine.
19:02When Mali was in alliance with the European Union at that time, we received training missions from the European Union.
19:12And we were told that the European Union did not sell lethal weapons.
19:17When the war began in Ukraine, all of a sudden we saw that the weapons were authorized by the European Union.
19:25So, there are countries wonder then, does that mean that the life of someone from Mali or from Burkina Faso, from Niger,
19:33does not have the same value than that of a life in Ukraine?
19:38Those are the questions that we must make in the international context.
19:42And we see that there is a double standard and hypocrisy in the way that the issues are focused.
19:49And when other countries take decisions that go in the same direction, then it can be done.
19:57We treat China and Russia in the economic field.
20:01So, not a single country has the right to deny another country the capacity, the ability, and the possibility
20:10of half-relationships, trade-relationships, or security-relationships, if this goes in the direction of the interests of the fans.
20:22Now, we are going to a short break, but we'll be right back.
20:25Thank you very much for joining us.
20:37We continue here in our talk with the Foreign Minister of Mali.
20:41How are we doing? Do you feel comfortable?
20:44Yes, it's perfect.
20:47I'm so glad.
20:51So, I wanted to ask you, beyond the political and economic aspects, what type of cooperation is Mali seeking with Latin America?
21:01We can think of culture, for example. What are the key aspects?
21:06Well, Mali seeks with a cooperation with Venezuela and other countries in Latin America.
21:20Generally speaking, it helps each other in a way of cooperation that creates a complementarity between our countries,
21:29a cooperation that respects the sovereignty of our countries,
21:33a new kind of cooperation that is beneficial for Latin America and beneficial as well for Mali.
21:41Today, in terms of the exchange of knowledge, for example,
21:48Venezuela is a great producer of oil, and Mali also has a lot of resources.
21:58And we have oil resources as well in Mali. We have research, and we can learn from the experience in Venezuela.
22:09Mali can also acquire the hydrocarbons that are produced in Venezuela.
22:15In Venezuela, Mali also has a great production of gold.
22:25Mali is the third producer of gold in Africa after South Africa and Ghana.
22:30Mali is also the first producer of sub-Saharan Africa of cotton, but this cotton is only transformed in 7%.
22:44So I believe there are a lot of possibilities for our countries to develop to exchange technologies,
22:52to establish commercial relations and strengthen our capacities,
22:57because nowadays our countries have excellent political relations,
23:02relationships of solidarity, of fraternity, friendship relationships.
23:13But economic relationships are the ones that help a country to move forward.
23:20Venezuela and Latin America are not that far from Africa.
23:25It's only that we don't have the means of connections, the physical connection means,
23:30be it by ships or by planes, to be able to be even closer.
23:34A Venezuelan friend told me that Caracas is nearly five hours of flight from Cape Verde,
23:44so if it is done direct.
23:47So it is important to establish the infrastructures that we need.
23:53So what we must strengthen are the economic links,
23:57because we see that the rules of the world economy are not in the best interest of our countries,
24:07and that's why we must work together and we think that today with bricks and other mechanisms that we create,
24:13our countries must invent and reinvent themselves to be able to find means of cooperation
24:21that do not allow an unbalance between the relations of the countries of the south,
24:28and we must be even closer.
24:32There are lots of opportunities in Africa and in Mali.
24:36In Mali we have a very young population, 70% of our population.
24:41We have great possibilities in terms of agriculture, water resources.
24:45In Africa we have lots of possibilities.
24:49So we don't have to go through the old powers to be able to work together with Venezuela.
24:56It's a good point that you were making regarding the BRICS,
25:01because there's a lot of countries that are making part of this organization,
25:05BRICS, BRICS+, and also other countries that are around them and may be willing to make part.
25:14So how close is Mali to the BRICS?
25:17Mali and the other two countries of the Confederation of Sahel States,
25:27Burkina and Niger, we're going to mark our own interest regarding BRICS.
25:35Well, in the political field we want that there is a multiple world with balanced relationships among countries,
25:46and BRICS helps this dynamic.
25:49But also we work in the economic field in the issue of development.
25:55BRICS establish mechanisms, be it regarding currency exchange or financing institutions as is the BRICS bank,
26:07that offer financing conditions that are more favorable for our countries
26:12than the conditions to which we are accustomed to by other financing international institutions.
26:20And due to all this we think that BRICS are an alternative, not the only one,
26:26but an alternative to the unipolar world and unbalance in which we find ourselves in.
26:32Right, and in order to start closing our interview I wanted to underscore the situation in Palestine,
26:40because Mali, in all these days that you've been also meeting with the Foreign Minister of Venezuela,
26:46Iván Gil, you have expressed your rejection to the actions and aggressions against the Palestinian people,
26:55against the genocide and the occupation.
26:59So I wanted to know what concrete actions is the government of Mali taking in the face of this,
27:09in the face of this genocide of Israel against the Palestinian people.
27:16Well Mali has always had a position of solidarity with the people of Palestine.
27:28And we think that the self-determination of the Palestinian people must be respected.
27:33And it is the moment, it is time to find a political solution that allows Palestinians to have a state,
27:42and that they live next to Israel with peace and security.
27:48Unfortunately there are many challenges to achieve this.
27:52The atrocities and crimes committed in occupied Palestine are horrific crimes against humanity.
28:01And they are injustices that must call on the attention, on the conscience of the remaining countries.
28:14So there are countries that accuse Mali of violating human rights,
28:22and these big countries are in reality accomplices of what is happening in Palestine.
28:28So it is important to say that the international community must assume its responsibilities,
28:39and put an end to these crimes and these atrocities against the Palestinian people.
28:46And allow the affected people in Gaza and occupied Palestine to receive humanitarian aid.
28:55And also it is very urgent that we find a political solution to be able to allow that Palestinians can have the control of their own destiny.
29:08We agree, Foreign Minister, that the international organizations are basically just talking about this,
29:17regarding what is happening.
29:19There is a lot of discourse, but there is a lack of sanctions.
29:24There are words, but no concrete actions.
29:27Well, I want to tell you that we are currently in a crisis, in a world crisis.
29:37We are in a crisis of the world governance.
29:41We have a leadership crisis in the world.
29:45The organizations that were created to address this kind of situation,
29:50the United Nations, the UN Security Council, are divided and cannot assume their responsibilities.
29:58So it is important that there is a change.
30:02The world must reinvent itself and find a solution, because today is a minority which is running the world.
30:10The configuration of the current world is not the same as the configuration of the year 1945, after the Second World War.
30:18So we must have the capacity and the legitimacy to solve these problems with the relevant institutions.
30:32Institutions must adapt to the emergencies of powers, of the economic and political powers that have emerged in the world,
30:40but are not considered today when solutions are sought after.
30:46This is what explains the crisis that we find ourselves in.
30:49And also the fear, the fear of the great powers of, after the Second World War,
30:56regarding the space that must be given to the new forces.
31:05That's why this crisis in Palestine and somewhere else, what happened in the region with Iran,
31:10are organizations, are but observers of issues that they must resolve.
31:17Thank you very much, Foreign Minister. It's been a pleasure to have you with us.
31:22Muchas gracias.
31:23Thank you very much.
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