- 5 months ago
© Howard Stern and/or SiriusXM
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00:00So where you are right now, Ben, you're in L.A., and this is not your house, is it?
00:07Yeah, this is my house.
00:09Oh, and it looks like it's an editing room or something.
00:13Yeah, it is.
00:13I found that I was spending so much time in the editing room editing movies,
00:19and I wasn't seeing my kids because they're 15 hours a day for 26 weeks cutting the movie.
00:24And then I started this whole Zoom thing, and I realized, you know, I probably don't have to do this.
00:31You know, I can actually be home.
00:32So I got to put together an editing rig, and now you can get, like, you know, pretty normal computers,
00:39put the software on them and get good hard drives, and actually with Evercast and, you know, a few little tweaks,
00:46you can edit just like you would in the editing room, see the editor, and work from home.
00:49So, and then this colors, and that does the sound, and there's a little effects thing over there, and it works great.
00:56So when you direct a movie, you do most of the hands-on editing in that studio yourself, or you hire an editor?
01:04I do. I like to edit. I think I'm a good editor.
01:06I actually started editing my first movie, Gone Baby Gone, because I thought, like, nobody else can do this.
01:11I ain't the right thing.
01:12You know, I had that, like, sort of, I don't know what, that attitude.
01:15And then I hired an editor, a guy named Billy Goldenberg, because they told me we should have an editor.
01:22And he said, why don't I cut, you know, behind you, and I'll just clean it up.
01:25And I said, all right, all right.
01:27And then he showed me the first half of what he'd done on top of my stuff.
01:30And I was like, well, why don't you go ahead and take a crack at the rest of it?
01:33It's pretty decent, right?
01:34There'd be a reason why you have a job.
01:36So Billy Goldenberg and Chris Rouse are two genius guys who, I mean, they're, and actually Billy's, I mean, every morning I hear about what was said on Howard Stern, if I wasn't listening myself, which is rare.
01:49Well, thank you.
01:49Billy's a rabid, rabid fan.
01:51And so, you know, yeah, anyway, he's great.
01:54But what happens is now you do, you can both do it.
01:56So I have a machine, the editor has a machine.
01:59And, you know, because of the old internet technology, you can see it here and see it there and connect.
02:04You know, it's weird because most directors I've spoken with, not that I've spoken to a lot, but the ones that I have said that, like, they trust certain editors to edit their stuff because most directors fall in love with their own footage.
02:17And that if you're a director, it can be a big danger to really be in the editing room or overly involved in the edit itself.
02:27I think that's an excuse that guys use who want to go home.
02:31Right.
02:31They're, like, done with the movie, prepped, they shot it, and they're like, ah, fuck, just put it together.
02:37You know, because that doesn't, I mean, listen, I don't, there are great editors who, great directors who do turn it over to brilliant editors.
02:44Both Chris Rouse and Billy Goldenberg, who I work with, are so brilliant that you, I could turn the movie over to them and it'd probably be better if they just cut it without my interference.
02:53But I just can't do it, like, I have very specific ideas, I remember certain shots, and at the end of the day, there's no, you know, there's no, like, it's not like you die and go to heaven and God says you should use the close-up.
03:04It's like, it's a question of taste and, you know, it has to be something that you like and that you love.
03:09And, but these brilliant, it's filmmaking is a really interesting, great art form because unlike so many of them, it's actually collaborative.
03:18And it's never going to be better than the director.
03:20It's never going to be better than the material.
03:22The performances are vital, but the most undervalued and underappreciated people and underpaid on movies are the editors and cinematographers who really can make a movie.
03:31I don't know, uh, beans when it comes to making movies, only made one movie in my life.
03:35And I saw an excellent example of this when Ivan Reitman was in a studio during an edit.
03:42I, I didn't get a laugh on something and he said, that's okay, I'm going to replace it with a shot with you looking into the camera directly and the audience will laugh hysterically.
03:50And I thought he was like, kind of like being a Svengali bullshit artist.
03:54Shit, if he wasn't right.
03:55We tested the movie two times and it worked when they had me looking directly into the camera.
04:02It is such an art.
04:04And, and I, I, I believe you're correct that it might be the most important part of a filmmaking experience is the editor.
04:10It is when the editing process, you make the movie.
04:13I mean, you can make so many different movies.
04:14And what's really fascinating to me, what I learned is the way you can put a sequence together.
04:18It can, it can finally work.
04:21Somebody can want to change one or two things and it totally breaks it.
04:24Nothing lands.
04:25You don't care.
04:26It's not funny.
04:27It's not moving.
04:28Well, a couple of things this way, I mean, it's, it directing is definitely, you know, there's a reason why people are good at it, but editing is, there are masters.
04:36And I, I always tell directors who don't use editors, like you really should, because you can't, these guys and women, they have experience and history.
04:44They've worked with so many directors.
04:45They know tricks.
04:46They know, and a lot of them are brilliant filmmakers themselves.
04:49And it's, it's the key.
04:51And also, it's not like filming where everybody's fucking on all over you.
04:55And it's this constant rush and a panic and your stress level is so fucking high and you never get in the, whatever.
05:00The actor didn't show up because he's hammered and you didn't lose, you lost the location.
05:03And then, and then you get to just be in the quiet, the editing room, take your time, make the decisions, heaven.
05:10I love it more than it's, and you really can improve the movie.
05:15You know, the first cut you get of a movie, you always want to hang yourself.
05:18My experience, you look at it and think, well, it was fun career.
05:21Well, it lasted.
05:22I got to run, you know, and now I'm done.
05:24And then it's typically the editor goes, calm down, you know, and slowly you start building and building and building.
05:30And like, fuck if it doesn't actually get better.
05:33And it, the thing about movies that's also interesting is you can't rush it from like A to Z.
05:37You can't just go, no, here's the answer.
05:39You have to get to the next piece and then realize, okay, now we should do it.
05:44And one thing leads you to the next very iterative process.
05:46And you just can't, that's what drives me crazy about studios who go like, well, when can you have it done?
05:51Like, we have to have it.
05:51And it's like, it takes what it fucking takes.
05:54You know what I mean?
05:54If we want it to be good, we're all in here all day long and all night.
05:58You know what I mean?
05:59Grinding into more frames.
06:01So, you know, give us a chance to do it right or don't want something good, you know?
06:06And the worst thing is, you know, you slave and people are up till two in the morning and then they're conforming.
06:11And the turn of the studio, you've got to have it by the 12th.
06:15You break your nuts to get in by the 12th.
06:17Everybody's dying.
06:19And that's like crickets.
06:20And then come like the 11th of the next month.
06:24They're like, so we watched the movie.
06:26We have some notes.
06:27Why the fuck didn't you just give me the chance to make?
06:31And then the notes are like, it's a little rough.
06:32We could smooth it out.
06:34If we had another fucking four days, we would have smoothed it out.
06:36You know what I mean?
06:37You guys did.
06:38But I don't want to be there.
06:39Why is it that movie executives who are, you know, they must know something.
06:43I know everyone, the cliche is movie executives don't know anything.
06:46But they do.
06:47They know they put money into scripts that they believe in and they're putting their money where their mouth is.
06:52And it's such a huge process.
06:54Filming, coming up with a script, finding the right actors, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
06:59And then they'd be stupid enough to rush the final thing.
07:04You know what it is?
07:05There are some, you know, studio executives who are really smart.
07:09I know a bunch of them.
07:11And like any job.
07:12And then there's people who you think, like, they pay you a million bucks for this?
07:15You know.
07:16But the truth is, you know, you just have to remember, everybody's just working from their own, like, the blinders of what they need.
07:24You know what I mean?
07:24We got to have the movie out for the quarter.
07:26We got the advertising money dedicated.
07:27Like, okay, yeah, we want to go.
07:29Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
07:30But look, how different is it going to be?
07:32You know, we got the actor, the action, the thing.
07:33We got the trailer.
07:34Like, you know, you're talking about a three.
07:36They think you're talking about a three or four percent marginal difference.
07:40And to me, it's a big deal.
07:42But, you know, you just have to recognize, look, they're doing their best.
07:45They have their agenda.
07:46They have their needs.
07:47They're not my needs.
07:48And actually, one of the interesting, I read a book called The Longer Vibe about the making of Chinatown.
07:53And one of the lessons I took from it was because there's this common myth that, you know, the auteur director comes in and says, vision, you know, or vision.
08:01They make it.
08:02And the movie was just a constant fight all the time, an argument between everybody about how to make Chinatown.
08:11And now that's taught in film school as, like, the perfect movie, the perfect screenplay.
08:15And really, it wasn't one person's vision.
08:17It was the result of everybody fighting as hard as they could for what they believed in.
08:21And then kind of the best sort of version went out.
08:24I'm reading Mel Brooks' book right now about movie making, and he said the thing that saved his career was early on he had a lawyer who put into his contract, this volumous contract, they put in, Mel Brooks will have final cut.
08:41That's it.
08:42No executive can tell him because he said on Blazing Saddles they told him to cut out the farting scene.
08:48The executives told him, and he goes, okay, I'll cut it out.
08:51And then he didn't do it because he had final cut.
08:53He said, my career would have been over.
08:55That's the secret, right?
08:56You get enough clout, you win an Oscar, and suddenly you have that ability to say, everybody has to fuck off.
09:03I can stick to my people.
09:04There is a big deal to be, and all the directors that I really admire and look up to really need to feel like, hey, look, either you believe in me or you don't.
09:15You want to hire me to do this job?
09:17Whether you want to bring me in to, like, tile the kitchen or put in the HVAC.
09:22Like, you think I know what I'm doing or don't, don't stand over my shoulder and tell me how to do it or hire somebody else.
09:27That being said, as an actor, being in movies or a writer sometimes, there are times where you go to the director like, don't do this.
09:36And sometimes you don't see things.
09:38Like, the first cut of Good Wanting, how do you like them apples, was it in the movie?
09:42And I was like, but God, I think people are going to think that's funny.
09:47You know?
09:47And he was like, well, it seems kind of, I don't know, is it juvenile?
09:50It's rubbing it in.
09:51And I was like, well, yeah, it's rubbing it in.
09:52And, like, that's the whole, but there is a thing where you don't always, like, and I haven't always known which lines were going to work and which were going to be good.
10:00The big part of the process that people do, like you mentioned, is you screen the movie and there's a huge power, like, in showing it to an audience.
10:08And it's not even what the audience says.
10:09Like, something happens in you where you get self-conscious.
10:13Like, the first time you show it to people, you know, it's like you put on some clothes.
10:17You're like, I'm going to take a risk.
10:18I like this sweater.
10:19I don't know.
10:19I go out and see what they think.
10:20As soon as you walk out, you go, no, I'll be right back.
10:22You know what I mean?
10:22You just feel, and it's like, with the movie, you go, you know, you just, you've fought and fought.
10:27Like, we need these extra five minutes.
10:29You sit down with the audience.
10:30You start to feel them get bored.
10:32They're starting, like, somebody's coughing.
10:33They're getting up.
10:34And you realize, fuck, I blew it.
10:36I'm going to cut that out.
10:37No, no, no, no, yeah, I don't want to make it shorter.
10:38You know, it's very revealing and powerful.
10:41Not that you have to pander to the audience, but that makes a big difference.
10:45And it's, for me now, what I do is cut and show it to, I'm not really supposed to do this,
10:50but I show it to people like the secretary at the dentist, the mom at the elementary school.
10:57You know, just people who aren't in the biz, aren't going to be film critics, aren't going to come in.
11:00Sometimes I show it to directors, and then I do want that, or actors, I do want that kind of feedback.
11:04But mostly it's like, let me just show it to people and ask questions like, are you bored?
11:08Did you understand this?
11:10Do you know who the bad guy is?
11:11You know, basic things.
11:13And you build from there.
11:15And so then when you have the test, you can really find out the answers to the more nuanced questions.
11:21But, you know, yes, people sometimes miss ahead of time the stuff that's really going to work.
11:27It looks easier in retrospect when we all go like, oh, this guy said the telephone would never work.
11:32Well, it probably seemed like a little far-fetched at the time, so you've got to have some sympathy for it.
11:37And some studio executives are more obtuse than others.
11:40There are people who just got into it to like, I don't know, we'll make movies.
11:43I used to make toilet paper.
11:44I used to make widgets, whatever.
11:45And there are some people who are really passionate about it and care.
11:49You know, the Final Cut thing really is a big deal.
11:53Because even when I disagree with a director who I respect and love, I go, don't use that, don't use that.
11:59Ultimately, if I can't win that argument, you know, I just tip my hat and go, you're the director, that's the deal.
12:04You're the boss.
12:04I signed up for this for your movie.
12:06When I direct a movie, I'll make that decision.
12:08And that's just sort of the way it goes.
12:10Because you've made all this money in the business and you, you know, you got two Oscars and, you know, this.
12:16Do people in show business call you a lot and say, Ben, do me a favor.
12:22I've made a film.
12:23Please come over and watch it and give me your notes.
12:27I would think if I made a film and I was friends with you, the first call I'd make is to a guy who's, you know, who's got some credibility.
12:34I would call you and say, would you do me this favor?
12:36Do people do that with you?
12:38People do that with everybody.
12:39In my experience, like, and yeah, I have friends and people I know who I always watch their movies and buddies of mine whose movies I like to watch.
12:47And there's a few people that I really, you know, really count.
12:51A few people give great notes and people who are really observant.
12:54And you want people that are kind of on your side and rude for you.
12:57They're not going to come in and make you feel like shit or put you down, you know, exploit that opportunity.
13:01But we'll also tell you the truth.
13:02It doesn't work.
13:03It's just nice.
13:03It's not working.
13:04But try this or try that.
13:05And I've got some great, you know, ideas from those people.
13:10And, yeah, I have a group of friends.
13:11Like, I showed, you know, David Fincher or Matt Damon, obviously, or Bradley Cooper.
13:16You know, I showed Downey and, you know, Robert Downey, a movie.
13:20You know, just depending on who.
13:22That sounded like a name dropping thing.
13:24A lot of more directors.
13:25Those are guys that, I mean, Bradley Cooper is a really good director.
13:30Of course, I would.
13:31Bradley Cooper asked me to come see an early screening of Stars Born.
13:36And he asked me my opinion.
13:37I found it very awkward.
13:40I'm like, what am I?
13:41This guy's been working on this thing for years.
13:43And this has been his dream project.
13:45What am I going to tell him?
13:46You know, I mean, it was a very awkward thing.
13:48And I would think even in your position, because you're a thoughtful guy, you wouldn't sit there and say, hey, man, your film, it doesn't work.
13:59And although that's what they're asking you to do.
14:02I probably wouldn't say that, because if I felt like, you know, like just on a binary level, like you're fucked.
14:09That'll never work.
14:10Nobody wants to hear that.
14:12And that's not useful.
14:13Like, how am I helping you?
14:14You know what I mean?
14:15Right.
14:15But I can't help by offering going like, even if I think.
14:19And also, there's like some people might like it.
14:21Some people might.
14:21There's movies that are so successful that I just think like, why do people want to watch this?
14:26I accept that there's a subjective nature to it.
14:28And so I go, look, you know, let me just add what I can add.
14:31I mean, Bradley, speaking of him, before he directed, you know, I mean, I met him in 2000 on a movie called Changing Lanes with Sam Jackson.
14:38And I got to know him since then.
14:41And he was on Alias with my ex-wife.
14:43So I knew him.
14:43And he, and he, I found him to be, before he was director, probably one of the most useful people to show a movie to.
14:51And I got to tell you, he, he's not, it's not both of the people I think at all about.
14:56He's this good looking guy.
14:57He's a rich guy.
14:57He's an actor.
14:58Bradley's the only person who's ever watched a movie of mine who could come out after first, seen a movie once, come out, talk to you and say like, you know, there's that cue that comes in about 12 frames.
15:11I'm just like a horn after the scene with the two of them in bed.
15:15And they come, I feel like that's the, once you come into that, just start on her fate.
15:18You know, like really good memory, really specific, deep knowledge of movies and good taste.
15:25You know, I think, I thought it was a shame he didn't get nominated for, I mean, you know, whatever, for that movie because I thought he deserved it.
15:33I did a great job.
15:34I thought the movie was beautiful and very well done.
15:37And I, you know, looked at it throughout the process of the early stuff with Stephanie's stuff and putting it together and talking about conceiving it.
15:46And, you know, he's a nice guy, as you know, he's very winning and trying to make you want to help him.
15:50And it can be awkward if you, I mean, I've had a few situations where I've thought like people have asked me to come to screenings and I've just thought I have nothing to say.
15:57This is a disaster.
15:59And you don't want to say that just because it's true.
16:01But it is, it's important to me to be honest, I feel like I'm an honest guy.
16:06So I sneak out the back.
16:07Do you?
16:08You like you, in other words, hey, I'm not going to say anything.
16:10Sometimes I do like, I got to run.
16:13I got to, let me call you, let me send you some notes.
16:15I, you know, I, there's some great stuff.
16:17This is the work to do.
16:17Let me call you, which is a little schmoozy and bullshitty, but I feel like you don't have to hurt people's feelings, you know?
16:23Oh my God.
16:23I can't imagine because like I, I got into painting and when I'm doing a painting, it is so, I couldn't be rushed when I make a painting.
16:32I don't want to hear too many opinions.
16:34I can't imagine what it's like to put up that kind of money for a movie.
16:38That art form to me is so fascinating.
16:40And when it works out right and everything's perfect, you're like on a high.
16:44And when it doesn't all come together, like I, I think about, like you mentioned, Goodwill hunting.
16:50You think about how many ways that could have gone wrong.
16:54Two young guys writing a script.
16:56Who knows who would have gotten a hold of this script?
16:59The fact that you sold it, the fact that you guys got to be in it.
17:02I mean, it's, I'm sure that pivotal moment in your life and changed your whole life.
17:08That pivotal moment.
17:10I mean, it could have been completely fucked up.
17:13You know, it could have been, and you know, it's interesting now.
17:18I think what helped us, and what's one of the things that's actually a problem with technology
17:22is now, like this iPhone 13.
17:24That 4K chip in that thing is like, it's pretty fucking incredible.
17:28Like five years ago, a camera like that was $70,000.
17:31That's a better quality camera than they shot collateral on with Tom Cruise and Jamie Foxx.
17:35Right.
17:36And if I had had that then, you know, a $900 camera, you figure, fuck it, we'll just make
17:42the movie like this.
17:43That's probably how we would have done it, and it would have been shit.
17:46Yeah.
17:46Because it doesn't give you the discipline, because we knew at least it was going to be
17:51a million bucks.
17:52We were going to try to do like the Reservoir Dogs model, where Quentin needed a million
17:55dollars.
17:56He knew Harvey Cattell from acting class.
17:58He got Harvey to be in it.
17:59They gave him a million bucks.
18:00He got to make his movie.
18:01But you had the camera package was expensive.
18:04The film was 60 cents a foot to process, 40 cents a foot to buy.
18:07So there were costs in it that had to force you to make decisions, you know, and be concrete.
18:12And one of the things when it's so easy, and you can shoot so much, is that people kind
18:16of get lazier and don't focus in on it.
18:18And you can do it faster, whereas we really, the first script was shit.
18:23A good one.
18:23Right.
18:23It was dope shit.
18:24I mean, there was a few of the lines, and they were good.
18:26But it was like, you know, a little E.T., a little Beverly Hills Cop, the banana in the
18:31tailpipe, the feds were after Will.
18:32I mean, it was like, because we thought, oh, they want commercial.
18:35And it was just, it would have been like a takeoff of a crummy 80s comedy with a ridiculous
18:40premise about some kid who's really smart as a J.
18:42And to our credit, we had people, we got exposed to like some older writers.
18:47The studio took us to like meet William Govan and meet people.
18:50And Rob Reiner and Liz Glotzer, who worked at a place called Castle Rock, said like, take
18:55all that shit out.
18:57What if me take that shit out?
18:58That's what people want to see.
18:59They want to see the action, the funny, these jokes.
19:02And they're like, no, they don't.
19:03That's not what's good about this movie.
19:05We don't want that.
19:06We just want the guys, the shrink, the other shrink, and the friends.
19:10And the girlfriend, that's what's good.
19:12And we were like, you're fucking crazy.
19:14And that's an example where we had our heads up our ass, you know, because we're 22 years
19:18old.
19:19And only at 22 years old do you think you know everything.
19:21And we're like, no, you're like, we don't want that episode.
19:25You think I'm holding out?
19:27What's good?
19:27What's good that dude's liked?
19:28Go, go, go.
19:30Go, go, go, go, go, go.
19:32Go.
19:32Go, go.
19:35Go, go, go.
19:39Go, go.
19:40Go.
19:41Go, go.
19:43Go.
19:46Go, go.
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