00:00Question, Mr. Pappas, you're now recognized for five minutes.
00:02Well, thanks very much.
00:03I know that my colleague, our friend Mike Levin, used to sit in this seat and was very much focused on what was happening in San Diego,
00:10where the numbers were far greater in terms of wait times than what I would see in my region of the country.
00:16The regional office for VR&E in my region in Boston, the wait time's 33 days.
00:21But I understand that progress has been made at San Diego.
00:24I know that was in your testimony.
00:26Can you drill down a little bit on that in terms of what tools have proven successful there?
00:32I know you talked about the virtual counseling capabilities and redistributing work.
00:38And if you could also talk about whether that has met with veteran acceptance along the way,
00:44and that's a path that veterans are okay with choosing, it would be great to hear that.
00:48Yes, with San Diego specifically, we deployed a help team of 11 people.
00:52These are people who were recently put into quality assurance positions, so they are some of our best counselors.
00:58And they dug in and helped San Diego first.
01:00And then we also did the reassignment of work for the virtual counseling.
01:04We've not heard any complaints.
01:06Veterans seem to really appreciate the availability of virtual counseling.
01:10And truthfully, it's seamless to them where their counselor sits,
01:13as long as they get the counseling appointment that they need to get entitlement and get a rehabilitation plan developed.
01:19Okay.
01:19So it appears that progress was made in part by making sure that ratios were in a much more acceptable place
01:27than they previously had been in San Diego.
01:30Is that right?
01:30Yes.
01:31Ratios were adjusted based on moving the workload to the people that we have on board.
01:35Okay.
01:36But it appears that you can't fully get there nationally and address those ratios
01:41without the additional people that you indicated you need for the program.
01:44That's correct.
01:45Okay.
01:47And as enrollments increased since the passage of PACT, obviously staffing became a challenge
01:54and didn't keep pace.
01:55And I'm wondering if you can reflect a little bit more on why that was the case.
02:00The VR&E division and the field offices did do some hiring over the last few years,
02:04but they also had some attrition.
02:06And I will say that the field of rehabilitation counseling as a whole is not a growing occupation.
02:12So that's why the new position of voc rehab specialist was created so that different bachelor's degrees,
02:19for example, in other human services occupations could be considered.
02:23But the previous administration had to make decisions,
02:27and they made decisions about hiring based on disability claims processing.
02:31So the priority was given to hiring of disability claims processors versus voc rehab counselors.
02:38In terms of the work that counselors do, obviously, you can look at it in terms of numbers
02:43and having caseloads in the right place that might provide them with a better working environment
02:48and an ability to help veterans in a more timely fashion.
02:51But are there other ways you're thinking about retention and holding on to those qualified counselors
02:57that you have in working to avoid burnout?
03:00Yes, I am very concerned about retention with our counselors.
03:03I've recently convened a group of leaders from the field, regional office directors, assistant directors,
03:09and VR&E officers, to meet with me to give me recommendations on how we can make improvements in the field.
03:15VR&E service has done some great work, but really the field is where the rubber meets the road,
03:19and those are the people that I need to hear from directly.
03:22So we've started meeting and discussing what to do to improve the program as a whole
03:26and also to improve things like retention and recruitment.
03:30Okay.
03:32That's it for me.
03:32I'll yield back, Mr. Chairman.
03:34Thank you, Reiki Member Pappas.
03:37Can you explain to me the difference between a Veterans Rehabilitation Specialist
03:42and a Veterans Rehabilitation Counselor?
03:46Yes, sir.
03:46A Vocational Rehabilitation Counselor has a Master's Degree in Rehabilitation Counseling,
03:52and so it's a specific industry.
03:56And then a vocational, and they can make decisions like entitlement decisions,
03:59and they can do the full gamut of services.
04:01So they can get a Veteran all the way from the very beginning of application
04:04all the way through declaration of rehabilitation.
04:07A Vocational Rehab Specialist can be at a bachelor's level,
04:10similar types of educational credentials, but at the bachelor's level.
04:14And they can't make entitlement decisions, but they can help the Veteran.
04:18Once the rehabilitation plan has been developed by a Voc Rehab Counselor,
04:22they can help the Veteran throughout the lifetime of their case
04:25all the way through declarations of rehabilitation
04:27or discontinuance if the Veteran stops participating.
04:30And so what's the ratio between a specialist and a counselor?
04:33Like, how many specialists do you have compared to counselors?
04:40Well, you know, I have the combined number.
04:42It's 1,056 of the two combined.
04:44I'm sorry, I don't have the ratio between the two.
04:46In your professional opinion, do you think you need a Master's Degree to pull this off?
04:51Sir, I think that what the Master's Degree gives us,
04:53I have a Master's Degree in Rehabilitation Counseling,
04:55and the training that you get in those Master's Degrees
04:58is how to really take a look at the disability conditions
05:01and the occupational areas
05:03and all of the supports that a Veteran might need
05:06to achieve rehabilitation and overcome those barriers.
05:09Other occupations, such as social work, for example,
05:12might be more comprehensive in the clinical sense,
05:14but less focused on the occupational sense.
05:16Well, Ms. Devlin, I would posit that if you have a 45% recidivism rate,
05:21that's the wrong term because you're not going to jail,
05:22but if 45% of our Veterans are returning,
05:25I would say that maybe we're not getting the money
05:27or the bang for the buck with a Master's Degree.
05:29So if someone is, if they're missing the mark 45% of the time.
05:34So what we're trying to do, if you need an additional 400 folks,
05:38you know, that's going to be really hard to produce these people.
05:41So what I need from you is I need the ratio,
05:44and I'd like to see the specific differences.
05:47And if you don't have it for me right now, just give it to me.
05:49I want to see the specific differences in authorities
05:52because having done this myself,
05:54and my counselor, her first name was Ann.
05:55I won't say her last name, but it was awesome.
05:58You know what I mean?
05:58I don't know if she had a Master's Degree or a Bachelor's Degree,
06:01but she was great.
06:03And seeing people along the way,
06:06I just think that what we're doing is we're requiring an educational,
06:10we're setting a standard for an education
06:12that's actually limiting our ability to hire people.
06:15And I don't see an appreciable difference between the two right now.
06:22And I don't want this to be a program that is hampered by an artificial requirement.
06:29And the Secretary of Defense and some other folks have removed these requirements for GS levels.
06:37You know, you have to have a Bachelor's to be this and a Master's.
06:39Okay, that's been removed through a lot of these different career fields.
06:42And I think that's something we need to look at here just because of these things.
06:48I mean, we've got real, we have empiric knowledge,
06:52you know, experience-based knowledge now that this is something that needs to be looked at
06:58because, you know, to my ranking member friend's point,
07:02you know, we want to make sure that we can get everybody what they need.
07:04Okay, well, I want to thank you for coming today, Ms. Devlin.
07:13We do have a lot of work ahead of us.
07:15I want this to be an open line of communication.
07:19And again, I accept full responsibility for my lack of oversight
07:23being the chairman of the subcommittee in the last Congress.
07:25That is on me.
07:26And I'm not running away from that.
07:28I know that you have personally assured me, and I'm going to take you at your word,
07:32that you will increase your oversight.
07:35And I'd like to be able to exchange ideas on this.
07:38Again, this is a fantastic program, but it is rife for abuse.
07:44And it is too easy to defraud this program.
07:47And we want to make sure that we hyper-focus these dollars because this, I mean, how much is it?
07:54$72,000 a year?
07:57I mean, we could essentially fund everybody you need if we got rid of what is clearly fraud.
08:05I mean, you can say whatever you want, but you don't spend $900,000 to not have a bachelor's degree.
08:11It's just not it.
08:12And then we're also going to work on splitting off the adaptive home things,
08:18because those are super important, too.
08:19I mean, if that veteran loses their legs or arms or whatever, we need to do that.
08:25I don't care how much it costs.
08:27That's a debt that we owe to the veterans.
08:29But I just want to be able to clean up our funding lines so we know exactly what we're spending on,
08:33so we can maximize these dollars to give every veteran that earned these benefits exactly what they need to thrive.
08:38And I would like to yield to my ranking member if you have any closing comments, sir.
08:43No, thanks.
08:44I think we generally agree on the challenges here.
08:48And I'm grateful to hear some of the ways that you've made some progress at realizing better numbers
08:54in certain locations around the country, including San Diego.
08:57And I think they're important lessons to be learned.
08:58And so in addition to rebalancing caseloads and having better internal controls
09:05and providing the best training possible, it's clear this is an issue where we need more people.
09:10We need more counselors and support staff in order to get to those ratios that are acceptable
09:14so that veterans aren't waiting far too long and are getting the help that they deserve.
09:17So I know I want to work with you on that to help get you the support that you need and deserve there.
09:24And I'm grateful for your reflections and want to continue to make sure we're engaging the veteran community
09:28in terms of their own satisfaction and trust with respect to this program,
09:33which is a real game changer, as you said, Mr. Chairman.
09:36I'm glad that this support is there.
09:38We've got a ways to go to make it better.
09:40Certainly, we have to pay attention to those cases where fraud is possible or where it may be happening.
09:45But as you say, there are complex cases out there.
09:49And I think we need to make sure that we're focused on the big challenge here,
09:53which is ensuring that the increased number of veterans that are moving through this program get the help they need.
09:58You can't get there without people and having the right staff.
10:00And so I remain committed to providing that as best I can.
10:03I yield back.
10:04The gentleman yields back.
10:05And Ms. Devlin, again, thank you so much for coming today.
10:08I appreciate it.
10:09It's kind of lonely sitting out there by yourself.
10:10But you did a bang-up job.
10:11I ask the unanimous consent that all members may have five legislative days to revise and extend their remarks
10:17and include extraneous materials without objection.
10:20So ordered, this hearing is now adjourned.
10:23And I'd like to see all the sailors up here, please.
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