00:00A network of spies has been identified across the United Kingdom.
00:03Chinese students studying at British universities reportedly under pressure to report back to Beijing
00:09and to spy on their classmates in an attempt to stop discussion of topics sensitive to China.
00:16Gregory Lee is Emeritus Professor at the University of St Andrews,
00:19Founder Professor of Chinese Studies there,
00:22and Gregory contributed to this report by the UK-China Transparency Think Tank.
00:27Gregory Lee joining us live.
00:28Good evening to you, sir.
00:29Thank you for being with us on France 24.
00:32Were you shocked by your findings?
00:35You know, this report is more of a wake-up call than it is a major new revelation.
00:43The kind of activities that are described in it have been going on for some time,
00:48but they've intensified, and they've certainly intensified under the leadership of Xi Jinping.
00:54So Chinese students have always been encouraged to spy on one another and to report back to the authorities,
01:04the embassy or the local consuls.
01:07And, of course, that's made easier for the authorities by the fact that all of these students will have relatives back in China
01:16and therefore are easily pressured or threatened with what might happen to those relatives if they don't comply.
01:25My reaction to that over the years has always been to say to the students,
01:28well, I know that you're being asked to spy on one another.
01:32I know that you're being asked to report back on what's been said in class.
01:36If I say it, you can repeat it.
01:40I know that you're going to do that.
01:42So there's a situation with the students.
01:45There's also a situation with China-born scholars who are increasingly numerous as university teachers in the UK
01:53who also have the same fears of reprisals against their relatives back in China if they don't comply.
02:01But compliance in their cases is more to do with what they don't say.
02:06So don't work on certain topics such as the Uyghurs in Xinjiang.
02:11Don't work on Tibet.
02:12Don't talk about Hong Kong.
02:15So there's a lot of pressure about that.
02:17In recent years, the demands on students to sort of keep an eye out on what other students are doing,
02:23especially those students who came from Hong Kong, has increased.
02:28But that, as I say, has been a long-term phenomenon.
02:31It's just intensified over recent times.
02:35Gregory, how widespread is this?
02:38How dangerous is it?
02:42I don't think it's particularly dangerous.
02:44The main threat that's brought out in this report is a threat to academic freedom.
02:50And that academic freedom actually has two sources.
02:54There, of course, are the Chinese authorities directly applying pressure.
02:57You won't get a visa.
02:59You won't be allowed to go to China.
03:01Or if you're a Chinese student, be careful of what might happen to your families.
03:07And then it's the pressure that actually comes from the United Kingdom's own university administrations,
03:11who are frightened of Chinese reprisals, because, as the spectators may not know,
03:21Chinese universities are heavily dependent on Chinese students.
03:25So if we look at the University of Manchester, the Scottish universities, Edinburgh, Glasgow, the big London universities,
03:31we're talking about tens of thousands of Chinese students who enroll paying much, much higher fees than UK students.
03:38And so there's a fear if suddenly China pulled the plug on those students and brought them out, brought them back,
03:45either globally or from a particular university.
03:48The impact on UK universities would be huge.
03:53And the financial hit would be huge.
03:56And in some cases would probably lead to bankruptcy.
04:00So there are several things that are brought out in this report that need to be heeded.
04:06And it's not as if the UK Parliament and government don't know these things already.
04:12But this is, as I say, it's a it's a reminder.
04:15Fifty UK academics dealing with China in China studies were asked to respond to a survey.
04:22Three quarters of them did so anonymously.
04:25So that gives you an idea of the fear that is there either fear of the Chinese authorities
04:31or worries about repercussions from their own university administrations.
04:36So that situation really does need to be addressed.
04:39Your empathy with the students and your colleagues is evident.
04:46I'm just wondering how some of the things you've outlined seem to be very sinister about the threats that might be made to students and academics coming to the UK from China.
04:55Do you have any further evidence on that?
04:58Well, those those threats are not just confined to universities because they happen in in UK Chinatowns,
05:05in UK Chinese communities where the Chinese authorities are increasingly active using this similar kind of tactics of threatening people back back home to get local people to comply.
05:18It's particularly evident during the pro Hong Kong demonstrations a couple of years back.
05:24There were there were literally street battles between pro Hong Kong and anti Hong Kong students.
05:31So they're the things that that have changed over the last few years.
05:37But it really is a situation that the government needs to address, because it is ultimately about the university's ability to respond, to protect academic freedom.
05:48And if the bottom line, which is financial, is as bad as it is today, in other words, the rug can be pulled out from under them if they offend China,
05:58then they really don't have a great number of tools with which they can deal with this situation.
06:04Has there been any sense that people in the UK have been compromised, authorities in the UK have been compromised, any sense along those lines?
06:13I'm not, you know, I've not, you know, witnessed any of that personally.
06:17I mean, in this survey, it has to be said there are a number of people who who don't have much negative to say,
06:23but then there are a significant number who who are obviously concerned and have horror stories to tell.
06:31Well, in terms of if we're looking at questions of corruption, in terms of university administrators, I haven't seen any evidence of that.
06:41We certainly know that that has existed in other countries.
06:46And, of course, we're not talking in this instance about the network of Confucius Institutes,
06:51because that's another that's another situation which the UK universities have got themselves embroiled in because universities are connected to Confucius Institutes,
07:03which are embedded in their in in their structures.
07:06And they're mainly staffed by staff that come directly from China and who are trying to project a positive image of China.
07:15So with more of an emphasis on calligraphy and making paper lanterns rather than, in fact, talking about the reality,
07:27social, economic, political reality that is China today.
07:30So there are contradictions in the objectives of what a Chinese studies department or China studies department should be doing in a university
07:38and what China would like universities in the UK to be projecting as a positive image of China.
07:45And that's a more insidious sort of soft diplomacy approach to this issue rather than direct spying.
07:53It's it's about pressure to to ease off on negative images and to underline the positive.
08:02Gregory Lee, thank you very much indeed for your insight.
08:04Gregory Lee there, the emeritus professor at the University of St. Andrews,
08:08Founder Professor of Chinese Studies there and contributed to the report by the UK China Transparency Think Tank.
08:13Gregory Lee, thank you for joining us here on France 24.
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